catrox14

I'm going with Rowena helping. Or a hole opens up right under their feet and they land in not!Hell for a hot minute. LOL

Scripted fictional television is about show AND tell. That's why dialogue exists. And this show is frought with lack of show, and lack of tell, and conflicting show vs tell. IMO, if the show and tell were better there wouldn't be such disparate interpretations. It doesn't mean that the disparate interpretations are born out of some viewers just being too dumb to get it. I'd say it's because viewers are actually pretty darn smart and see the failures in the writing, and the failures of show and tell, and show vs tell, along with LOLcanon and lazy characterizations. It's been especially bad under Dabb, for TFW specifically. JMI is a prime example. Dean feels guilty sure, but that doesn't mean he's an unreliable narrator. Allowing for that to be the case, the narrative could have other characters advocate on screen with dialogue, for Dean, which would really make the point that Dean is mired in useless guilt. Sam himself could have been given voice to say, 'Dean was dragged around by Dad and that kept him away even though I know I know he wanted to be here. And I appreciate him for that'. But that would have altered Sullys story too much. The episode was clearly putting Sully against Dean as to who was better for Sam during that time period. Sully encouraging Sam to run away wasn't condemned, it was shown that Sam was stuck all alone with a shit father and ineffectual big brother. Writing is funny in that dialogue matters. It matters a lot. Writers get paid to use words and they use words on purpose. If Dean had said I couldn't be there because Dad, that would have undermined Sully. And Sully was the the hero of that episode even. He went through a whole hero journey. Obviously, Dean isn't going to advocate for himself because he thinks he did fail Sam.its his trauma that unless he protects Sam he's failed. Because of what John did to him when Dean was too young to know he was being parentified by John. That dienst make Dean an unreliable narrator, though. It means that's how he sees himself. And since neither the show nor the tell subverted that, it stands as Dean just wasnt there. There was a flashback with Dean being upset with Sam which could be intrepreted as Dean not wanting to be there for Sam because he was out hunting. Or because Dean felt he couldn't get away because John wouldn't let him. Either way, Dean was going to feel guilty because of being parentified. Dean is at the mercy of the writer, who wanted Sam to be wooby!Sam here and mostly, because it was Sully's story, Dean had to be the one who was mean to Sully and apologize later. If the episode is going to that much trouble to tell that much back story on Sam and Sully, the writer could have made the decision to use a different word or put words in another characters mouth. But she didn't and that is what stands as the aired canon episode about Sam's shitty childhood and Sully saving Sam. As to John apologies, that is not true when it comes to Dean specifically. He apologized ONE time in 2.1, immediately followed by loading Dean down with the heaviest burden yet, the Save Sam or Kill Sam directive. John apologized to Sam, to his face maybe three times for their fractured relationship. And sorry, but Dean's wounds from John ate not the same as Sam's. So it's not a blanket apology to both that works. Dean deserves to have his own direct specific apology about himself and John beyond 2.1. Now, if I thought the show was trying to tell the story of Dean being a damaged man, because of John, there needs to be a lot more dialogue on screen to address it. There isn't so it's not something they intend to address. In s12, Dean got to say it to Mary, but Mary isn't the one who parentified Dean, John was. So for me, until John directly apologizes to Dean for what he out on Dean in s2, John is still a shitbird in my book. All of this is to say, the show and tell are badly handled under Dabb. And it's not the viewers fault for not getting it. This show is not that deep now.

She is a lead in a show on ABC now. Not sure how that timing would work. To your point about Chuck lying. I guess anything that happens on the show now that doesn't fit past Canon or is not textually or subtextually on screen will just be hand waved with "Chuck lies". I find that just .... Blech.

I don't see how that works. It's only souls from Hell that seem to have come back. OG!Bobby was rescued from Hell and was last seen in Heaven Jail, Rufus, Jo and Ellen are likely somewhere in Heaven. Unless you're suggesting Heaven's souls are out as well, which isn't what I got from this episode. Well, Bela could come back but I don't it will be Lauren Cohan. I don't want all these characters recast either.

I'm almost convinced it will be the souls going to Sam ....as the Boy King of Hell for leadership. I'm not even kidding.

Just because this scene was seared into my brain in a terrible way, the script was much less clear about Dean not being there for Sam. from Super Wiki The writer couldn't bother to give Dean even a couldn't or wasn't able to be there...just that he wasn't, no context to why Dean wasn't there. I hate that episode so much.

I dont think that will happenhat because from the beginning of this show the boys have never been on the same page 100%. No spoilers but I suspect they will be at odds over how to deal with Chuck and whether going after Chuck is important or worthwhile given all the zombies being resurrected. And if Dabb is still at the helm he will write it pretty much as he has which includes manufactured angst between the boys. In fact, I think he'll go so far as to have the be on opposite sides of things, especially if they seek a return to s1 form wherein they were not joined at the hip, which I actually prefer. I want them to be independent of one another and still be able to work together.

He didn't though in s12. And he didn't in this episode until Jack was killed by Chuck. To me that is fake angst. He also didn't choose Dean over Jack in the season finale. FWIW, Cas is my 2nd fave after Dean so it gives me no pleasure to say he's an idiot. And he didn't have a flaw back in earlier seasons. He made intentional choices to side with Dean and humanity which was kind of retconned to being flawed. To me that reduced the influence of Dean. Cas being a pawn to Heaven annoys me because he has been smarter. But all of TFW has been dumbed down for Jack. Blech

Is that the lowest rated season finale? Well that sucks!

They spent almost all of s4 through s10 showing and telling us how much Dean, and to a lesser extent, Sam, altered Cas' view of angels and humans. And that he almost always chose Dean and humanity. If Cas has gone back to Heaven over huumans the show has done a piss poor job making that. So for me, I can't put Cas in dick angel territory again. I can put him in just being an idiot which sucks.

My top 5 endings are s1, s2, s3, s9, and 1/2 pt to s13 for Michael!Dean and 1/2pt to s10

Oh another thing, so NOW they bring up the Cage and it's brought up by Cas, but no one could be arsed to bring up the Cage with AUichael running around? The should have never mentioned at all for Jack...other than getting OGMichael out to help them. JFC that's awful writing.

Of all the dumb things in this episode, Chuck saying the father killing his son, is such billshit because the only way that works is if Lucifer killed Jack. Or Cas at best. The only reason I can see for the show putting that on Dean is that they wanted a rift between Dean and Cas. Sam would have been a more effective father figure to kill Jack. Sure, Dean woul do it because he makes those hard calls which made it seem like it's just a given that Dean was Jack's defacto father for me it doesn't wash. YMMV

I saw spec elsewhere that Dabb has created an end for the boys with the Equalizer Gun with idea that the show could end with Sam and Dean killing each other with one gun probably to stop another apocalypse,which now terrifies me that is exactly what Dabb will do. That is not at all the same as them going out together side by side. And in the most co dependent way imaginable. do.Not.Want.

Hey now, at least the Teletubbies have color! Jack is so beige he wears beige... OMG the costumer was telling us all along!

I'm not sure how, if you're filtering out what you determine are wank and hater posts how that makes it any more objective. I'm saying I read through at least 2000 comments for that episode from all corners, and and when it came to Jack and Dean, it was Dean taking a beating for sure, even Chuck didn't come off worse than Dean. Jack's actions were mostly ignored because the poor baby didn't know any better.

It's a convenient way to avoid Jack being bad. It was shown in the episode with Jack and the teens that he couldn't control his powers and he had just purposefully killed humans by trying to turn them into angels. He may have been manipulated into doing it but he still did it. He was convinced he was right to do Heavens bidding and he didn't want to be called out for it. For as much power as he had iand not having the savvy to know right from wrong or the soul to guide him and he was upset with Mary then just with a thought he killed her even though he didn't want to do it. He killed her by accident. ETA: he also felt he was 100% right on killing Nick and either he intended to torture him as he did or had no control which still makes it even more believable and likely he killed Mary and not Chuck.

I read the SPN tag during the episode, which is anyone posting with #supernatural,not just people i follow, and I saw far more condemnation of Dean for even suggesting that Jack had to die and saying Dean was a jerk for doing it. I saw celebration of Cas speaking his mind to Dean, and even encouragement for Cas and Sam to punch Dean again to save Jack. I saw much speculation that Chuck wasn't Chuck either which.. okay. My point is that the summary above whilst not representative of ALL opinions wasn't that far off what I saw during the two hours I spent on the #supernatural tag.

He hasn't been black and white about monsters in years. He questioned all the way back to Lenore's first appearance when he worried they had been killing monsters that didn't deserve it. And there was Benny. My point being Dean's reason for not shooting Jack had little to do with Dean thinking there was another and far more to do with Dean thinking about Mary and that she wouldn't want it that way. Not because he suddenly was on board finding another way. Dean had already suggested another way that Sam wasn't on board with doing with the soul bomb. Chuck showing up with a new gun eliminated the need for Dean to go the soul bomb route. Either way Dean was going to take on an unrequested and unwanted burden which was basically Save Jack or Kill Jack. The only reason Chuck came back was to make the story go the way he wanted. He wasn't there to save Jack. He was there to make Dean his puppet and Dean was all nope. An that's where the writing wasn't nearly as clever as it thought it was. It had no build up like s4 and s5 making it was an asspull just for shock value. I don't believe Dabb planned it for the whole season to have Chuck be the big bad. I think he was setting up Nougat Sue for an Anakin Skywalker story that would have carried through for another season. But the boys pulled the plug on the show and he decided to make Chuck the bad guy instead. Nothing is organic about Chuck just fucking with Dean and Sam because he can. It's stupid. I've always said Chuck is a bag of dicks but he tested the boys to choose family and now he's just fucking with them. It's just..not good.

Problem is he would have to recast because barring a miracle and all the Brinks trucks on the planet, Mark Sheppard isn't coming back. And he is what made Crowley tolerable.

That was Dallas, and then difference is that only erased one season of stupidity which I fully applauded unlike apparently, the entirety of Dean and Sam's life As an aside, I had to laugh at Sam saying why are we the ones that have to fix everything ( which, btw, basically Dean's line in the his djinnverse in s2, so fuck you Dabb for that) when no, they have to fix things because they broke it in the first place.

Exactly. Also, WHY???

What the fuck was that shit? Seriously. I would take the marionette fight finale over that shit. So many questions. How did Sam jump from Chuck wants Dean to kill Jack to Chuck was playing us ALL ALONG!!!? What? How did he get there from here.....RME Why didn't Dean have the conversation with Chuck about Michael's motives....I mean it's not like Michael was wearing Dean at the FUCKING TIME!! Why bring up Michael at all other than just another fuck you to Dean's SL with Michael. Well, fuck you Dabb. I guess Dabb is Chuck in that he didn't get a spinoff, he didn't what he wanted so he just destroyed 14 years of work for the boys. It's so stupid. Sigh.....

This is just lazy writing IMO. Undoing everything the boys did saving people, hunting things? What's the point? Why make them do it all over again? This is stupid

Why does Amara get the blame for this LOL? I've said Chuck is an asshole along, so I guess this fits. Amara seemed to get what she wanted which was Chuck back. She realized she didn't want to destroy the world for the sake of it. She just wanted to get even with Chuck. And this comes from someone who largely hated Amara. But she shouldn't get the rap for Chuck's choices here.