ReadMeLattice

I agree. Maci, Catelynn, and Leah have all had some degree of substance abuse issues so they might drop a tiny bit lower on the list than Briana, Kailyn or Farrah for me for a short term babysitter, but I still think they'd be safe and fine. Farrah is bitchy, Kailyn is disgusting and Briana makes terrible relationship decisions but those things wouldn't affect a few hours of babysitting. Amber and Jenelle (and especially Amber actually, as at least Ensley has stayed alive but Amber has never proven herself able to be sober and caring for a child for even a few days) would terrify me for even a few hours of childcare.

David scares me due to what I know about his criminal record and his emotionally abusive nature, but I agree that I don't see the good side of Nathan that others seem to. Dude just seems like pure unadulterated violent roid rage to me.

I highly, highly doubt Ali's parents would put her specifically in a class for kids with physical disabilities. It would be great if they did.

I thought she said both-- that he said she could "never carry another child," which to me means staying pregnant. It didn't make much sense and wasn't altogether consistent because she was lying.

Lots of things that wouldn't necessarily harm the fetus could cause recurrent miscarriages...problems with the uterus or fallopian tubes, incompetent cervix, low progesterone, other hormonal problems, cysts, PCOS, obesity, diabetes and various other health conditions, even stress. I just don't believe that KAILYN has any of them. I believe she did have some kind of mild to moderate reproductive issue that the doctor was looking into, and when she wanted to get pregnant, she used it as an excuse, it worked, and she ran with it and whipped it up into a huge thing for a story. It's like her stuff with Javi. Is texting your ex angrily and threatening to/showing up at their house (assuming that happened for the purposes of this scenario) totally inappropriate under all circumstances? Absolutely. But is Javi some psycho abuser who she needs to protect herself from? No. Did she probably have some sort of reproductive issue like many other young women out there? Maybe. Was she told directly that she could never carry more children? Um, no. My husband had been in a wheelchair with a spinal cord injury for 16 years when we started trying and I had ovarian cysts and irregular periods and the ob/gyn laughed off our concerns and told us it was all fine if the tests came back ok. Most people can get pregnant. (And we did after a month, lol). And those who truly can't or who have a ton of trouble getting or staying pregnant should be outraged at Maci and Kailyn types who use the very real tragedy of infertility as a storyline or excuse. I would be.

The latest stat on miscarriage now that we have such early pregnancy testing is actually more like 50% (of pregnancies ending in miscarriages) and even higher by some estimates. "Recurrent miscarriages" is medically defined as three in a row. So yeah, while I believe she absolutely had the miscarriages and that she was medically deemed high risk, 2 out of 6 total pregnancies is definitely not out of the ordinary. Unless she had more that she isn't sharing.

Lol!! Yes, the suddenly infertile early 20s mom of two other children.

Omg yes WHAT IS WITH THE LAND THING Is it supposed to be like they're pioneers or something? Is down home country folk land different from other land? I grew up on an acre in the suburbs. Did that not count as land because we didn't wear camo or go to prison a bunch? Not trying to stereotype Southerners or camo wearers or country people or any of the other things Jenelle has claimed to be since her latest boyfriend lobotomy. Just pointing out how weird and fake it is.

Well, guess they don't share a birthday...my baby girl was born on the 4th around midnight. 7 pounds :)

100%. They could have absolutely worshipped him and my opinion is the outcome would have been the same. I didn't see any terrible treatment of Devoin at this visit. They all ignored him and allowed him into their home because HE doesn't have a car or license. He chose to use that visit to arrive stoned 6 hours late. I know they treated him badly at first but it's been years, at this point it's irrelevant. He was and is a deadbeat.

Wow they really haven't, have they? I don't think even one of them has had full time work.

I've never been on opiates as I've never had surgery etc and I've never seen anybody on them that I know of so I guess I just don't know. What exactly are people noticing about that clip that indicates they're high?

Also it makes no fucking sense!! All three DeJesuses were trying to convince Nova that adoption was the right choice for the new baby. She is FIVE. She has no idea what adoption even IS. What, is she going to debate the social, financial and political implications of adoption with you right now? She is in kindergarten!!! Apart from being creepy and traumatizing to the child, how is this useful to anyone? Let's ask her opinion on the election or the economy next and make our decisions based on what she says.

Hmm. http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/kailyn-lowry-chelsea-houska-rips-teen-mom-fakery/amp/

I agree to an extent but there are kids involved. The drink pouring and hugs I totally get (and I think it's funny) but the showing up randomly is pretty strange imo. Isaac has to know something is wrong when that happens (and maybe Lincoln to a much lesser extent). I totally get the *impulse* to show up there and call her the fuck out, but actually doing it when children are around and you know there will be a fight makes it a lot more questionable from my perspective. Isaac is very sensitive and picks up on everything. Now Kailyn SHOULD be able to just meet up and talk maturely, but he knows by now that's simply not who she is. I agree with @GreatKazu that instead of "victims" and "perpetrators" when no abuse is going on, they should just not be meeting up or in contact except to discuss the children, ever.

Exactly, plus a visit with him isn't on a specific schedule or guaranteed. Mom is a given, he's a special treat that gets taken away at intermittent times.

To be fair, I think in Jenelle's world 6 vacations count as one. Only one or two a year would count as "never going on vacation." Also, is "Jeremy and Brooke broke up because of a phone conversation with Leah" the "I'm going to treatment but I don't have a drug problem" of 2017? Because, yeah, pretty sure they broke up because Jeremy was screwing other people.

To me it's not as much about personal sympathy, everyone is going to have their own feelings about each of these girls and situations emotionally based on various things including our own experiences and that's neither here nor there. The fact that I don't want *anyone* to be abused as a matter of principle and think by definition, it is never "deserved," doesn't mean I do or don't have sympathy personally for Jenelle. What disturbs me is that I have seen hundreds of her fans wax poetic (using bad grammar of course) about how romantic David is. He is so perfect, he truly cares, he's a real man, finally you are with someone who treats you right, etc. When they see things like this-- obvious manipulation and extreme tendencies towards psychological and physical violence-- they are somehow interpreting it so radically differently that I'm afraid many of them also don't think for themselves. Or, even worse, they *want* to be told how to respond emotionally, who they can and cannot speak to, etc. And these are not jealous 17 year olds we're watching, they are 20 somethings with children. I don't know how they can see David and praise his and Jenelle's relationship as something they would want for themselves. It is jarring and terrifying and answers some of my questions about who keeps going for the Ryans and Kailyns and Nathans of the world.

I don't think she needed a PFA for one moment but Javi is/was emotionally immature and does have issues with boundaries when he's angry. Anyone would be driven nuts by Kailyn and act out imo but I also assume jealousy is a character flaw of his in every relationship. Just never to this extent because he picked the absolute *worst* person to be in a relationship with.

I agree that she instigates and starts them going on that road. She manipulates and demands that all her partners "prove" their manhood but also chooses partners who are cowards who want to do that by destroying an older woman. She provides them with an easy "victim"/prey and sics them on her...sometimes I wonder if it's partly to deflect so that Barb is the prey and not her, and also to set up her victimized damsel in distress thing that abusers like Nathan and David are drawn to. It's also an easy excuse for not having Jace so she never seems like the bad guy and can play victim hard. I assume it's some reenactment of her Daddy issues with triangulation of the "hero guy" who will save her from her mom who is just sooooo mean, dude. But the ease with which they slip right into that! I think I could tell my husband all day what a bitch my older female relative is and no matter how much he might defend me or dislike them, drunkenly screaming in their face and physically intimidating them like Nathan or ensuring all of our communication was monitored and mediated like David would not even be in the range of possibility. Much less if the relative and I were trying to get along!!! When he said, "you don't need to talk to her," my thought was, "he's done this before. A LOT." Scary stuff.

Wait, where does it say Dec/Jan?

As much as I hate Jenelle, I don't want anyone to be abused, even other abusers. The pattern was very clear. She was actually getting along with her mom at Christmas and that pissed David off because he wants her completely dependent. There was a reasonable phone conversation happening and he HAD to talk over it and dictate it the whole time. When Jenelle dared to even say something as innocuous as "I can't focus when both of you are talking, just let me talk to you one at a time" the gloves were off because it wasn't "David, you are my macho hero and protector and my mother is an evil conniving witch." Then he plants in her head that Barb is inconveniencing them horribly. In the car, he then demanded she ask for a different meeting spot. Then again, another conversation that she started out somewhat reasonably...yes, they should have just left earlier, but Jenelle and Barb likely could have come up with a closer destination. Then he dictates and probes and riles her up AGAIN until it almost seemed like Jenelle was just parroting David's words when she finally started yelling. It was eerie. She had never even seemed to share that opinion until he bashed it into her head enough times. Obviously she is far from "innocent" but holy shit that was all terrifying.

Yeah. I remember on Jo's teen dad special they were arguing about moving and he wasn't ready to commit to Vee. She moved for him with no clear commitment, and I admired his choice to put Isaac above everything. But now he's made a permanent commitment to her in the form of engagement and a shared child, and he can't put Isaac (via a good relationship with Kail) above his future wife AND other child. At some point he does have to take a stand because Kail is putting him in the situation of having to.

Exactly what I was thinking re: Luis. Some dads want an abortion or adoption and the moms don't and end up raising the child. So why the hell can't he be the primary or only caregiver if, for him, adoption is "not an option?" Just as Kailyn does a disservice to the women who are truly abused with her lies, Luis does a major disservice to the men who would like more time with their children and more equal roles as fathers by assuming that the options are Briana as parent and him as fun outing weekend guy or the two of them living together and that's it. Seriously, the audacity of insisting that adoption is totally wrong while clearly assuming someone else is going to do the day to day raising of your child anyway!

For what???