HalcyonDays

I do have a question about that - Advertisers want good numbers for the show, because they want as much exposure as possible, but do they do demographic analysis. I mean, 15 million people in total (DVR+7 and live viewing and Online viewing, etc) watched SH every week last year, but how do they know if it's white or black or Latino or whatever watching? Because if they don't know, then this push for more white makes no sense, especially since they are now LOSING viewers. There must be other analysis they do. But the last time I checked, POC shopped and bought things too, but hey, I could be wrong...*sarcasm* That's what advertisers want - people buying their product and they couldn't care LESS who spends the money, as long as they do. I watched Twisted until the break (loved Avan and Lacey) and didn't bother to pick it back up and glad I didn't. And I remember those TwoP conversations! That person/those people so called it because the replacement showrunner had a history. I read the forum after the break and was so glad I didn't pick it back up. That #PoorJo hashtag was ridiculous and reading that Danny then decided that Jo was the one. Please.... But yeah, I see it now - they are doing the same thing to the show that they did to Twisted. Fuckers.

I totally understand what you are saying, savinggrace, and I totally see now how Jenny, Frank and Abbie are being pushed aside, but this tells me the idiot and closeminded mentality of Hollywood and this showrunner and the writers. I happen to be that white woman who wants to tune out, NOT because there are too many people of colour on SH, but because I want to see Abbie Mills and Ichabod Crane alot on my screen. I want to see more Jenny, and by extension Jenny and Crane interactions. I want to see Frank on my screen, and Frank and Jenny interactions. I cannot stand Katrina, cannot stand the stupid story lines and cringe when she is on my screen. I have no use for John Noble now either, don't care about his whiny character, yet I am the female demographic they think they are attempting to appeal to. Trust me, they are NOT. Not by a long shot. As for the other demographic they want - the white male - the same applies in this house. My hubby used to watch the show with me and loved it. Three weeks ago, he gave it up. I asked him why. He said he is sick and tired of Katrina, can't stand her, hates how the show lost it's mystery and misses the historical flashbacks. I perfectly agree. So now they just lost that coveted demographic. The thing/person they thought would bring in that demo, lost that demo. And I doubt we are a rarity in terms of being the coveted demo and saying the show is lousy now. To be honest, it's a slap in the face for the viewers. What, you are telling me I wouldn't be interested in a show with compelling characters who I care about, who have amazing chemistry, displayed by amazing actors/actresses? Are you telling me that I can't understand a character or care about a character because of skin colour. That is utterly insulting. Ichabod Crane was/is my favourite character on the show - he edges out Abbie slightly, only because of my lust for Tom Mison. But I wanted to see more Abbie Mills. I wanted to see more Ichabbie (platonic or otherwise - just interact please!) and wanted to see more Jenny and Frank. So FOX - here is a reality check for you. That demographic that you so desire - you chased it away because of poor storylines, forcing a terrible character (well two) down my throat, and made the HUGE mistake of thinking that it's the POC that caused the problem. Fix your thinking and fix your show, because if you don't, that demographic will leave - it is already jumping ship as we speak - and your advertisers will start to jump ship and you will lose money and clout. But as we all know, this will never happen because of poor thinking and closemindedness. The same people who thought a demon pregnancy was an awesome idea think that pushing Abbie and Jenny to the sidelines is the answer. Fire them all.

Here you go, savinggrace. Nick Hawley: Bar-hopping Privateer

Here is your thread to discuss all things Nick Hawley, including his shady acquisitions, his love/lust for Abbie Mills, his snark, his comic moments and his very blond gravity defying hair.

Good episode, I quite enjoyed it. Loved the idea of the Fallen Angel and trying to manipulate the ignorant humans. The actress did wonderful with the pitiful, sad hurt angel, then switching to evil. Nicely done. She did look ethereal (is that the right word?) Liked her interactions with Manny too, where even he is in awe of her being on earth. So what, are these angels and Fallen Angels another species or something? Like not quite human but human or more supernatural human?? Liked the twist though. I'm worried about Manny. He said that he would face consequences for killing Imogen. Imogen had also killed - it sounded like a human just for fun, which is why she is Fallen? Or she ended up in Hell for murder, then became a Fallen Angel. But Manny has killed now too, but it was a Fallen, so what happens to him? Damn, I'm confused about the mythology. I love the snark between John and Manny. Love it. Zed too, I like her character and it was nice to see her kind of think spiritual in terms of her powers. The preacher/snake thing - totally reminded me of an X-Files episode. Just a laugh at how gullible people are that they could actually believe that someone's leg regrew an entire leg? The hell? But I guess when it happens in front of your eyes, who am I to snark?? And on a shallow note - that guy who was the model in the Figure Drawing class - bring him back...yum...Looks like he's some minion working for some shady guy, so he will be making another appearance. Looking forward to it and what shady guy wants with Zed and John.

I didn't see that part but I think it was like last year, when the media was all over Dez for "yelling" and being "angry" at his teammates. He wasn't angry, he was trying to encourage them, boost them up, motivate them, etc. It just looks like he's really angry, pissed off. I could be wrong though.

This is what should have happened this episode, regarding Frank's "death". I can think this up and write it out in 20 minutes, why can't these writers - who have massive amounts of time, do the same: This would be ALL they had to do, to make the episode still high stakes AND redeem Katrina. The entire episode airs as is, until we get to the part with Frank getting stabbed. Just like in the episode, he stumbles toward the tree stump, and just like in the episode, Katrina and Ichabod run to his side. She puts her hands on the wound and starts chanting. Ichabod tells him to hold on. Sad yet urgent music plays in the background. Ichabod puts his hands on Frank, who you can tell is fading. She continues chanting. Ichabod now yells out "Abbie!", and Abbie and Jenny rush to Irvings side. Katrina is still chanting, obviously struggling (as usual). Abbie and Jenny put their hands on Frank too, like in a faith healing. A bright white light starts to glow around his wound. Katrina continues her spell, the other's hands still on Frank. Ichabod and Abbie share a desperate look. The music swells, the urgency incrases, the light gets brighter and brighter until the screen is all light, and then...we see that Frank has been saved. He lives. The combined Witness and Witch and Jenny power worked together to save Frank. Next scene in the church with who will carry the sword. They know Henry is coming for the sword. Jenny helps Irving to walk, and they go hide someone else in the church. The rest continues on as shown. DONE. Frank lives. Katrina has a use and shows herself to actuall be powerful witch. Moloch is still defeated. That's it, done. FIN

See, AMC I like. Granted, they have the Walking Dead which rakes in like 12 or more million viewers an episode, which is insane, but AMC is not one of the big networks. That is gold for them. It's not working?? - Fire them! Lovely. I wish FOX would do that to Goffman. There are a lot of other talented and creative people out there who could manage this show. You know the overall irritation? AMC just dumped all of their unscripted shows, to focus on scripted only (obviously cause the WD is so successful). Can you imagine how AMAZING SH would be, on AMC? Dear god, that would be heaven. AMC, BUY the rights to Sleepy Hollow. Do it! Do it! That was one thing that was very glaring to me this episode, and overall this season. It's the APOCALYPSE. The End of Days. You know, like Moses and the plagues and the end of the world. The budget of the show was drastically increased this year. So are you telling me you could not film some extras quivering as their house shakes, the impact of the blood hail on other citizens, some lightening hitting the main street and blackening out the main street strip and people panicking. I mean, they SAY Apocalypse, but it seems like it's just some dude they have to fight against, as opposed to - you know - the end of the world. Kinda like "Katrina is a powerful witch" and the overall reality of that statement.

That's what you get for pandering to the actor and not the story. By making Henry a vanity project for John Noble, the writers tried to shoe-horn him in too much to showcase his range, as opposed to thinking about the best way for the character to service the storyline. The final twist at the end of season 1 was nice, but the season 2 experiment failed. But you know what - if they struggled with the redemption, but not for so long, and had Ichabod actually TAKE OUT Henry, but for some reason he survives, that would have been good (oh, but that would have to hinge on Frank living and Katrina being less present).

Alright, alright, move on people... Some people cried at Beth's death (yeah, I was one of them), some people cheered, some people were devastated and some people were indifferent. Everyone reacts to things differently, so let's not be judgemental over how some reacted to her death, nor judgemental over some taking it more seriously than you yourself would. Let It Be.

Hey Everyone - if you want to post anything about the Companion Series --> here is the thread for it! Please put any and all posts related to this series over there. tv echo, I moved your post over there. Much thanks!

Just reminding everyone that we have an thread to discuss Ichabod Crane, his hair, his wardrobe, his season 1 personality, his season 2 personality, and the amazing and beautiful actor who plays him, Tom Mison. We're starting to get off track again. *cracks moderator whip*. I moved some of the posts to that thread. Most obliged!

That's a good point, Amethyst, very good point. This could be Hollywood career suicide (then I guess he can go back into politics or whatever it was) but as with all unfair things in life, if he has someone who thinks he is still amazing, they can just claim it's the Ichabbie shippers that caused the show to fail, then no harm can befall him. That is what the writers and pro-Katrina people think - that only those who want Abbie and Ichabod together as a couple are upset. No, that's really not it, writers.... *rollseyes* I am hoping for this too - it's too late for this season, but hopefully there will be a third one to rescue the show. My fear is that there won't be, so nothing can ever change/be fixed.

I love this episode too - one of my favourites. Dukat being an arrogant smug ass, before finding out he couldn't beam off the station because his superior didn't trust HIM. Ha! Dukat and Garak flinging insults at one another - never not wonderful. Loved the premise overall too - I mean of course the Cardassians would do something like that. Makes total sense. Also the little bonding of Odo and Quark. So awesome. It's like they love-hate each other. The one thing though - the Cardassians didn't give anyone any time to respond!! If this had occured when the Cardassians were on the station, and one was knocked out, there wouldn't be enough time to respond! Great episode though!

You and 90% of the viewing audience, OakGoblinFly. Seriously. I've never seen such a negative 180 from such a large part of the fans/viewers this year like this. Professional media articles, reviewers and podcasts that all praised this show last year are shaking their head going, "What the hell happened?" And they all point out exactly what we here are all pointing out. It's mind-boggling and quite epic, actually. It was appointment TV for me too, but not now. Now, it's simply lost it's way and disappoints me. *sob* I miss Crane with his hair tied back - it looks better on him. And I miss the coat! The Original coat. I love that coat. It's like the moment he slipped on the new brown coat and let his hair hang loose, he became a completely different person. *moresobs*

I don't find this strange at all, to be honest. I don't have a cellphone either, and it's due to stubborness, not not wanting one. Same with things like twitter or having facebook, or the latest new fangled gadget. I'm not that old, just stubborn. I see the same think with Henry. He's set in his ways - probably gives him at least a small sense of control. Also, some people are those naturalist types who refused to use microwaves, or cellphone or whatever because they think it causes cancer or whatever. Henry said he didn't drive....NOW. But who is to say he didn't drive before? In a large place like NY, you wouldn't need it anyway. Less dense, yes. Things were a lot easier way back when, when you didn't need drivers licenses and credit cards were not chipped and you could more easily forge your identity. There wasn't the electronic tracking that we have now, but there are still people who can hide from the system. Think offshore Swiss bank accounts. Henry probably has lots of money and if he invested wisely here and there, he's be set for life. I mean, if he was smart enough to say buy stock in Microsoft early on, or a car company, that would be all he needed. I will be very sad if this show is cancelled. It is marked for it, but I really like it. It's fun. Maybe there is hope.

You know, I am starting to think the show's decline has nothing to do with Goffman forcing in Katrina/Katia and Noble/Henry and more a case of writer's hurt ego and wounded pride. Here is my fanwank: The writers started working on season 2 in February. Filming started in June. That's almost five months of time they could have spent hammering out the mythology, writing a few scripts and really nailing down where they were going. At the time, we were told that Abbie would be in Purgatory for 5-6 episodes. Recently, I heard she was supposed to be there until episode 11, since in this episode, the worlds merged, it would be how she got out. (what a terrible idea to sideline her that long!) Rumour is that when FOX heard this, they stepped in and said, no way! You cannot sideline Abbie for that long. Episode 1 was changed. We were supposed to see Abbie in the Dollhouse, Abbie was to see her mom, there were supposed to be Crane fighting zombies and Andy popped up in a cop car. That opening scene in Mama with Abbie's dream - that was shot for episode 1 (look at her hair). The zombies in episode 11 - that scene was supposed to be in episode 1. So Goffman has this great vision of what he wants to do, and FOX steps in and says "No bloody way." Goffman is pissed - how can this network not understand his genius, his vision, his great writing skills? So he retaliates. "I'll show them." He thinks. YOUR vision will end up reducing the ratings, MY vision is superior. You'll see.. as he shakes his fist at FOX. So the team start to crank out scripts. First, he foists a character that everyone complained about last year, pretending he loves he, but he knows better. So he gives us more of her, but saddles her with the most boring and typical and sexist TV tropes, AND makes her completely useless. He destroys Ichabod's character, making him an absolute idiot with no honour. He sidelines Jenny and Frank, popular characters. The only one who escapes character assassination is Abbie, who instead gets pushed to the side. It's why the mythology makes absolutely no sense and he decided to axe the whole seven years of tribulation, four horseman thing.... He's deliberately trying to kill the show. That's why so many people are wondering how on earth can things have gotten so bad. It's deliberate. How else to explain such a clusterfuck of a season 2. It's like he is incredibly upset that FOX didn't bow to his ideas and dared to demanded changes, and in his bitterness is trying his damnest to sink the show. All wounded ego and hurt pride.