Turtle

Good god, what if they go for above-ground veggies and we get a cabbage head?

A few pages back I talked about a hierarchy of needs, for individuals and for a community. A group that is comfortable enough to give away water and have running vehicles and clean clothes is a group that has tended to basic physiological needs and then some, and so are likely to start doing some long term planning, including thinking about repopulating. In this harsh environment, people are likely to wear out pretty quickly and so young bodies will be needed to maintain the buildings, to find or make or grow food, to care for the older folks and so on. Rick's group isn't thinking about any of that because they are struggling just to find food and water - their focus is still on those basic physiological needs. It makes sense to me that a community like the one Aaron describes would be in a much different position and have much different attitudes than our group of (un)happy little campers. I also think they probably have been established for a while because those walls are no joke and can't have been built just in the last few months, and I also doubt that close shaves and clean clothes would have been a priority in trying to establish a safe place to live. I've also been taking about why they would invite Rick's group to audition, whatever that means. If I was watching the group from afar, I would think the group members were mostly strong and smart and healthy. Judith is the only member of their group who will take more than she gives, but that will change in time. Possibly even more important to a closed community, they are seemingly diverse biologically and they have members ranging quite a bit in age. But I could be wrong and they could all be murderous assholes or wanna-be slave owners. It's hard to know with this show. ETA: is Judith a year old yet? I suck at keeping up with the timeline on this show, but she seems like she's moving around a little and has a lot of hair, so she's at least more than 6 months, I think. My one year old niece ate ribs on the bone yesterday and was just fine - babies' digestive systems can handle more than we may think. Although unblanched acorns is probably pushing it, for babies and for me.

I don't want to jinx us, but it couldn't be worse than the old Kiki, right? RIGHT???? This is funnier than it has any right to be.

If Maxie is dumb enough to go back to Spinelli, I hope they both leave town. I'm no fan of his, and while I generally don't mind Maxie, I really abhor the two of them together. I thought Nik was just rehearsing how he was going to talk to someone about Jake, but I couldn't figure out who he might be planning to talk to. It was definitely weird.

I stand corrected, jsbt!

Seems some of us (reasonably and politely!) disagree about whether the kid stuff is overall creepy, but I absolutely agree that the scantily clad women escorting Spencer in was out of line and that those party decorations made no sense whatsoever for a kids's party. The rest of it doesn't bother me because I see it as precocious kids being overly dramatic, combined with dialogue written by possibly some of the worst writers since the Sumerians first came up with writing. I see it more as crappy dialogue (like Cam's "did you think I'd break up with you?") than as actual creepiness. Not saying I love the storyline, though, and I think we are ALL in agreement on that. ETA: there is something wrong with me, because I can't stop being delighted that Cameron started the fire. It's not only the first time this regime has written someone in character, but it's also the first time new Cameron has been interesting to me at all.

I may be about to turn on Spencer, leaving him with no fans on this board. The tongue bathing of Sonny was awful. I used to hand wave him liking Sonny as him being a little kid and not having had any especially good role models, but this was over the fucking top. The ridiculous entry in to the party certainly didn't help. Joss remains my very favorite of the kiddie group though. I can't wait for her to grow up and torture Carly. I used to like Emma but she's gotten really whiney, and Cameron is so bland. Nathan's "that he's been keeping this from both of us" was quite possibly the worst acting RP has ever done. And that is saying a lot. Other than everything, absolutely nothing! Did Cameron start the fire? I was listening but not really watching. I really hope he did. It's not an adult quad - they're not physically inappropriate or anything. Kids that age really do have crushes and call each other girlfriend and boyfriend and get jealous, and it's usually a mess, so it doesn't make me uncomfortable. They're being kids, albeit bratty kids. Remind me again why Nik wants ELQ?

That's a good point. But it seemed to me that the begging him to lead again was because they want and need him to lead, And I have no idea how the whole group will react when someone else becomes the supposd leader, someone they don't know and don't trust. I just think it could be interesting to explore how the group dynamics shift in that situation. And maybe Rick is tired of being in charge and would welcome giving up the role. I thought this episode did a good job showing that while the group is understandably really cautious, there is also a shred of hope still in them. I think that's somewhat realistic. I mean, if they had no hope of anything ever getting better, why fight so hard to stay alive? They've encountered horrible things and had some really terrible experiences, and being on the road has proven extremely dangerous; they have no idea what to expect in Alexandria, and the last two communities they encountered sucked. So no matter what they do, they're in danger - do they take the chance that Alexandria is possibly being even anywhere close to what Aaron says it is, or do they stay on the road where they know things are going to remain crappy, at least for a while. Super tough choice.

Thanks, OnceSane! I guess its time for a Major Event That Will Change Everything that actually changes nothing, rather than following any of the possibly interesting stories that could be told or explored more. It's like the show doesn't understand that soaps should be about relationships, not huge disasters every sweeps period. Sure, do the occasional big disaster story, but used as a way to develop or influence of destroy relationships, not just a chance to waste the already limited budget on special effects and possibly prop up a character or two. At least, that's what I prefer- guess I shouldn't speak for everyone! I wonder if Sonny is going to single-handedly save everyone again?

I'm really interested to see where the Brett/ Michelle relationship goes. They're drifting so far apart, and they've got to both realize it- will they keep moving in different directions until one or both of them does something that blows it completely up? Or will they both work hard to try to restore their relationship? Or will only one? Or will they just resign themselves to being unhappy? I don't think Tina is trying to hurt Alex, but I do think she is being absolutely careless with his feelings, and not just any possible romantic ones. She likes the attention and is probably used to him just going along, and she isn't thhnking about his end of things. Still not cool.

Passive aggressive describes up Spinelli to a tee. I remember their relationship becoming a cycle of Maxie does something Maxie-ish, Spinelli gives her a speech about being a good person but making major mistakes, and then forgives her, but all in a way that suggests that she is actually not a good person and she is lucky that he is with her because probably no one else would put up with her shit. It drove me crazy, especially because I never thought they had any chemistry. As others have mentioned, Spinelli wasn't 100% virtuous good guy himself, and arguably his work for the mob was worse than all if not most of Maxie's transgressions, and he never once indictated that he felt bad about any of it. Maxie did more to hurt individual people close to her for sure, but she usually knew she screwed up.

I'm someone who mostly enjoys Spencer, and even I find this ridiculous. Wait- there was a fire?

I'm hoping Alexandria is a relatively safe and good place. I think it will be interesting to see our group try to acclimate to an entire new group of people, especially after all this time and have been burned so badly before. Will they fully become a part of the new community, or will they prefer to stay somewhat isolated within that community? And I'm very interested to see how everyone but especially Rick adjusts to Rick no longer being in charge. I took it as Rick meaning "There aren't any cars waiting to take us all to a safe happy place" rather than meaning that Aaron didn't actually have any cars. Extra people are a burden, but at some point new people become necessary to maintain a community. It's a hierarchy of needs- the Alexandria folks seemingly have food and shelter, a sense of safety, and possibly some luxuries (or what are considered luxuries in this word), so now they can start thinking big picture and long term. Our group, however, is still focused on tending to basic physiological needs and just surviving, so the idea of "What do we 10 years from now?" isn't something they have brain space for. In Alexandria, folks could be thinking about repopulating or expanding their landholding or any number of things. And for that, you need more people, preferably a strong and biologically diverse group of them It's possible that military bases didn't last long in the ZA because there usually so many people living in extremely close quarters. Even with guns and military training, I think an unexpected zombie outbreak in a barracks could be devastating. If the bases did survive, surely they would have been first targets for everyone else seeking safety, whether good guys or bad guys. Alternatively, when the outbreak first started, maybe a lot of military personnel attempted to get to their families and were never able to make it back?

I like Ava, mostly because I think the actress has been amazing. I'd never seen her in anything before, and she really had me rooting for Ava by the third week she was on (and it's entirely possible that her heat with Morgan endeared her to me - I'm not a stone!). Ava did some unbelievably horrible things, but she was shown to be really conflicted about some of those things (she mostly didn't want to kill Michael, for example), and she knew they were horrible things while she was doing them. Ava never believed that and no one ever told her that she was good and perfect and deserved a halo. Ava actually had layers, which is something that so so so many characters on this show are missing. Ava had some pretty major morality issues, but MW (and I guess some of the writing, I admit begrudgingly) made her a character that I can somehow find some sympathy for even while I abhor her actions. Unlike Sonny. I know that you all know that I hate Sonny so much that I cannot possibly be rational about him. If he alone saved the world's bacon supply from drying up, I still would not have one even borderline nice thing to say about him. And I'm a girl who would donate a kidney to ensure my ability to get bacon. Speaking of kidneys, Sonny could give me one, hell, even both, of his and I still would not be able to say anything nice about him other than "He looks better in jeans than in suits." So, yeah, I'm biased, and not at all ashamed of it. Got off track a bit there (see my avatar), but the point is - I didn't have to hate Sonny so much that I almost want to quit watching this show that I first starting watching (last 15 minutes of) when I was in elementary school. That never had to happen. But the crazy/ asshole writers over many many years have not only created this monstrosity of a character that makes the show so hard to watch, but they've also made him the center of the show and tried to shove his "heroism" down my throat like they're trying to make foie gras. GH, I wish I could quit you.

How in the world did I forget about that? Jax is approximately 37,278 feet taller than Sonny.

This is the same Sonny who bested Johnny, Franco, and Julian in prison, all of which I found laughable. But AJ? That was insane-levels of ridiculousness.

That's an interesting point to ponder. Would Jason's desire to not hurt Michael overrule his sense of "justice"? I'm not sure, but I lean toward thinking that especially since Sonny promised no to kill AJ, Jason wouldn't have supported Sonny over Michael.

I can - Knowing the lengths Jason went to protect Michael (however misguided those efforts were) and what I think was actual love Jason had for Michael, combined with Sam's love of Jason and her increasing distaste for Sonny, I would be surprised if she was anything but a Michael supporter. I would support that, but I worry that if that happened, Maxie would go back to Spinelli, and that I cannot abide. Okay, but did you still have all your hair when you woke up??

HipOldBat, exactly! But please reconsider your stance on the vampires - that was complete dreck, even more nonsensical than the Legion of Doom crap we are currently suffering through. Well, maybe not more than, but the two stories are on the same level. I'm generally against the mob scenes (exceptions: I love Julian and Johnny), but I can't honestly say the vamp stuff was better.

I swear I'm not trying to get in to a fight, but I feel a compulsion to try (again) to clear this up. The laws actually are not that complicated. And in Tennessee, the only type of paternity fraud recognized is when the mother lies to a man and tells him that he is the father even when she knows he isn't. And the only recourse for that is the man who was lied to suing the mother in civil court for money he paid as a result of her lie (child support, etc.). This information is in fact easily found through a google search. Additionally, parents signing the birth certificate when they know or suspect the named father is not the biological father is not recognized as criminal fraud, even in Nevada (not that Nevada law matters here). But in the interest of accuracy and completeness, in Nevada "criminal paternity fraud" applies only when a genetic test (blood or DNA) is altered or interfered with to affect the finding of paternity. It has nothing to do with who is named on the birth certificate. Finally, the parents signing the birth certificate even with suspicion or knowledge that the husband is not the bio dad is not considered fraud or illegal. As mentioned before, the laws of most states (including TN) have statutes that presumptively identify the husband as the father; the husband is automatically named as the father by law. These laws are based on public policy, in that states don't want husbands to be able to claim a child isn't theirs and therefore make the child a illegitimate. The laws are old and based on concepts and theories that are no longer as relevant as they once were (because women are now able to support themselves and children), but they are still in place. Teddy's parenthood is not ambiguous. He is Maddie's legal father. Because he and Rayna held him out to be Maddie's father for so long, despite them both knowing the biological reality, will make it almost impossible for Rayna to take away Teddy's parental rights due to the statute of limitations. Deacon could go to the courts to be named as Maddie's legal father, but it'd be an uphill battle, despite the DNA test, because it's been so long and it would cause Maddie a lot of damage to have Teddy taken from her life; Deacon having terminal cancer sure wouldn't help. Teddy probably had some idea of this because I think he's a lawyer, but he also knew that dragging any of this to the courts would cause a lot of damage to Maddie. Rayna also probably knew this, but was hoping Teddy wouldn't call her bluff. And she was right.

I think you got it just right. Sonny and Carly should be buried alive, and then the earth scorched over them. I've been thinking about it (read: drinking), and I realized that I hate Carly, but I appreciate how she's written and played (mostly). She is someone I love to hate. Well, like to hate, at least. LW plays her as convincing herself that all the insane and delusional stuff she spouts is true as a way to protect herself, which is something that was always kind of true about Carly. And even now, I feel like we're supposed to recognize that Carly is so selfish/ narcissistic/ immature/ misguided that she doesn't really see or isn't able to admit to herself the reality of things; instead she forces on these rose colored glasses and pretends like everything is the way she wants them to be, or the way that is easiest for her. At times like this, I see her as being seriously desperate and scrambling to "fix" things in a way that makes sense to her. I don't agree with her, for sure, but I sort of get where she's coming from. Pisses me off, but other people seem to realize that she's a hot mess and she's frequently been at least verbally attacked for screwing shit up. Sonny, on the other hand, is just a smug fucking asshole and everyone kisses his ass. I don't think his character has been portrayed consistently over any period of time longer than a week, and I sure as hell don't think MB has regularly done a good job "acting." Most infuriating is that the lip service we get from Sonny and everyone else is in direct contrast to what we've seen on screen for 20 years. They show him being a terrible human being pretty much all of the time, but he and almost every other character seem totally convinced that he is wonderful and amazing and perfect. I don't get the sense that Sonny's delusions are the result of an effort to protect himself or him being in denial - instead, I think he really and truly believes his own hype, and thinks he can do whatever he wants with no consequences. Which, he's not totally wrong about, I guess, because he does get away with some serious dick moves. I don't think I'm articulating it very well, but the point is that my hate for Carly is very different than my hate for Sonny. Sonny exasperates and infuriates me to no end and makes me want to punch my television. Carly drives me nuts, but kind of makes me want to keep watching her. Or at least doesn't make me want to stab my own eyes out and stick a chopstick so far into my ears that my eardrums burst and I am spared ever having to listen to her, unlike Sonny. Maybe it's that I hate the character but I find her somewhat interesting to watch, whereas with Sonny, I never want to see him and don't give a shit about him or his feelings or anything.

For pete's sake, show. What a hole you've dug yourself into. My attention wandered some; what was with the ring on the floor after Fitz left? Was that the same thing Huck gave her? What was it? Why do I care??

I really wanted to like this show because I think the premise is really interesting - a family member slaps the child of one of your friends, and chaos ensues. So much potential to examine different parenting theories, as well as family issues like is the village involved in disciplining kids or is each kid under the sole authority of his parents. In my family, one sister and husband expect that siblings and grandparents will correct their children when needed (but not by hitting!), while another sister goes ballistic if anyone even tells her son to sit in his dinner chair. I thought there was a lot to explore there, with the extended family that seems to be all up in each other's business with no boundaries compared to the hippy dippy over indulgent parents. But so far I'm pretty disappointed. I think my biggest problem is that they've made Harry and Hugo (and Hugo's parents) totally terrible people. This is such a better story if they each are rootable in some ways and awful in others. Like maybe Harry is a great husband and/ or feels real remorse but can't seem to get the apology right, or even thinks he was justified, or Hugo's parents know that he doesn't always behave well but aren't sure what to do about it, or Hugo is shown to be kind or fun or something on occasion. Instead, everyone is absolutely awful, and I want Hugo to get hit again by someone, anyone, and for his parents to get slapped with neglect charges or something, and for Harry to be convicted. There's no "gray area" here - they all just 100% suck. And I think that's a shame.

Yes it does. In most states, including Tennessee, there is a presumption that a baby is the child of the woman's husband, and it isn't a crime for the parents to not indicate otherwise. No one challenged the paternity and Teddy is listed on the birth certificate (voluntarily), so he is in fact her legal father. That's not exactly right. Paternity fraud is when the mother lies to a man and tells him that the baby is his when it isn't. That is the *only* type of paternity fraud recognized by the courts. That's not the case here - Teddy knew that Maddie was Deacon's and he knowingly chose to take legal responsibility for her. It's also not a criminal act, it only gives rise to a civil claim, and *only* the man who was deceptively told that the baby was his can make that claim; here, that would be Teddy, but as I said, Teddy wasn't lied to - he knew the deal. There is no paternity fraud here. Rayna could get a court-approved DNA test to remove Teddy as the father, but there is a statute of limitations when both parents have held themselves out to be the parents (absent paternity fraud) and any attempt by Rayna to strip Teddy of his parental rights would most likely be thrown out of court. How long has it been since Deacon found out about the cancer? The timeline on this show is always a little confusing to me. But I thought it hadn't been more than a couple of weeks, in which case it's not that surprising that he hasn't told Rayna and Maddie yet. Those are going to be two really terrible conversations to have, and I think he's coming up with reasons to avoid them because he doesn't want to have them. He just found out he's dying, so I'm inclined to give him a bit of a break while he sorts through it. Also, I think he knows that Maddie would want to get tested, and he doesn't want to put her through that. He didn't even want to put Scarlett through it.

I forgot about that. It was hilarious. Julian's face after Ned said it was great.