Turtle

Death is a possible penalty for treason, so Martha turning herself in doesn't necessarily guarantee that she lives. She could just be imprisoned, but once they got to the bottom of everything she's done, especially in the 80's, it's a real possibility she would be executed. If they were able to connect her to Phillio, it'd be almost certain. She really doesn't have any good options here.

Weirdly, what bothered me most about this episode (and most of the recent ones) is all the speechifying. I don't remeber it happening it every single episode in the first season, I don't remember several characters doing it, and I don't remember the speeches going on for so long. Liv's speeches, to me, used to make sense and be things that needed to be said, mostly. Now they all just seem like sanctimonious rambling, like the writers feel like they have to shove them all the time, regardless of content or timing. Even more than whisper-screaming murderous Huck, that's what is driving me insane.

I was kind of getting into this show the first two episodes, but this one ruined it for me. The Guiterrez family (mostly the daughter) story is the only one I'm at all interested in, and even that's not really compelling. And all the characters are dislike able! And not in a love to hate them kind of way; they're one-dimensional and kind of boring. They're trying to tell me how much drama and emotion they're all suffering, but the characters aren't really showing it. I get that the show is trying to copy the styles of shows like True Detective, but it's just not working.

Agreed that this show is awful. AWFUL. I've never been a Patricia Arquette fan but have usually found her tolerable. I don't even know what she's trying to do here. I do know that it is not working. Scorpion is also ridiculously unrealistic and terrible, but they seem to know it and are playing in to it, and I am fully behind it. It's like they're pretending to take themselves seriously while winking at the audience. This, however? They seem to be taking themselves so seriously, not realizing that no one else is. And none of the characters or actors are nearly as interesting or intriguing as the folks on the original CSI, so there's just nothing to enjoy. I don't need it to make sense, but I do need it to be entertaining!

Here's a home video of the Spinelli/ Nathan "boxing match" if you're interested:

And Rob has made comments about Jeff's sexism in the past, but in a good natured way because he can't be too hateful toward Jeff if he wants to keep his access! But he definitely notices Jeff's favoritism of men. I really do think that Rob is *not*a member of the He-Man Woman Haters Club. I just think that sometimes he's a little tone deaf. I just recently realized how much product Rob puts out! He does two to four casts for each Survivor episode, covers Amazing Race and Celebrity Apprentice and a dozen more reality shows, does the random Survivor-related special podcasts, did that whole Survivor history audio, and also does his other TV podcast. That is one seriously productive man.

I think Geary really has mild dementia and/ or a pain pill issue and he's demanding some of this outlandish awful stuff and no one knows how to tell him no and so we get crap like him screaming "I am Luuuuuuuuke Spennnncerrrr!" and Hannibal Luke. I mean, no one in their right mind can possibly think any of this a good idea.

So much interesting and good discussion here. Before I saw the links you guys posted, I kind of though that Monday's show would be Maya laughing hysterically because Nicole was so off base. I'm very curious about where they're going to take this storyline, but it does seem like they have done some research in to transsexuals and aren't just going to play it for laughs or shock value, but instead plan to treat it somewhat realistically (it is a soap, after all; none of us are expecting 100% reality!). For those that don't know, many transsexual women are able to have sex with men without the man realizing or even suspecting, especially in the last few years as the surgical technology has improved so much. The man may feel or notice some differences, but all women are different from each other in some way, and I don't think most men automatically assume that any anatomical difference they notice is due to sex reassignment surgery. Not to go too overboard here, but there are many women who have not had reassignment surgery who have shallow vaginas, or (as mentioned) absent periods, or breast surgery scars, or pain in certain sexual positions and so do not participate in them, etc. all that to say, I have no problem believing that Rick wouldn't have been suspicious. I'm sorry you don't like it, but to me it makes some sense that they would choose Maya for this storyline. I don't know every character's history, but I do that Maya didn't come to the show until she was adult. Any character who was "born" on the show couldn't possibly do this story. Moreover, the female to male sexual reassignment process is generally more difficult and, from my understanding that may well be wrong, more easily "detectable." So, women that were not born on the show and that no one on screen knew as a child doesn't leave too many options. This is so tricky. Before you become physically intimate with someone, you often are still developing the emotional intimacy, and you often don't really know if the relationship is going anywhere. I've certainly never told a boyfriend all of my deepest darkest secrets before we slept together. Some private stuff, absolutely, but not everything. And it's not as if Maya lied to Rick - she is a woman. At the same time, I can understand the sense of betrayal a partner might feel to find out years after starting a relationship. And I can understand the hurt of the transexual person if the partner is upset, angered, or even worse, disgusted by finding out, rather it's before or after they've started a sexual relationship. Like I said, tricky, and I suspect there is no right answer for all individuals or couples.ETA: this is already so long, but I need to point out: THIS IS NOT HOW ALCOHOLISM WORKS.

If I was about to get it on with a hot man, for the first time, and some stranger showed up at my door, I'd probably give her *all* of the side eye.

I don't think Phillip framing Martha would work because even if she's dead, the FBI will still investigate everyone in her life until they figure who she was connected to. Phillip has a good cover and I know they kept the relationship a secret, but I'd bet the FBI would have a good chance of tracking him down nonetheless. At least, it's a loose end. Having her die in an accident would probably be a better plan. Poor Martha. I assumed the second picture Paige saw was of someone Gregory was arrested with and Gregory was mentioned in the article. But I also didn't think too much about it, and now I'm curious about all of your theories. If they had one picture, why not two? Or why not just use the same picture?

Wow, it took me a looonnngg time to remember Nathan. Maybe they're just pretending that never happened? It seems unlike Lulu to not include Nik, even if he isn't blood related to the new cousin. And I would really prefer that we all forget about Nathan. After all, we have a new one.

I will never get over the (lack of) apparent age difference between Scott and Franco. I found myself kind of enjoying the stuff at the mental institute for the first time, and I liked the silliness of Franco and Nina. I don't even know who I am anymore. I think we can all agree that Scott's hair is ridiculous. RP has gotten much better, and I loved his conversation with Dante. He's actually emoting a bit and showing an actual personality. And Dante was great, especially when telling Nathan that Maxie was not a prize to be won. I wish Nathan had just beaten the shit out of Spinelli to teach him a lesson about running his mouth. Punch his ass all the back to Portland. Or at least break his jaw so I don't have to listen to him. Of course Maxie walks in just as Nathan hits Spinelli for the one and only time, and now she's going to dump Nathan and we'll have to deal with another round of Spinelli and Maxie. Aarrrggghhh. Dante was great all around today, including physically. I think I love him. For now. I'm also really getting on board with the hotness of Billy Martin. I need him to occasionally look at me all sexy-like. Patricia, her daughter, and Luke? Could not care less. When Lulu said she had two brothers, it took me a minute to figure out who they were. Perhaps we need a little more family interaction?

I must have missed something- what did Billy Miller do to Ron? I like Jake and Liz, at least go right now. I especially liked when he pulled her in for a hug when she was upset about Cameron. I think they're hiding Olivia behind stuff because the actress is much farther along than Olivia is supposed to be and they're not ready to have her so close to birth. I suspect they'll pre-film scenes with her before she goes on leave. I'm just guessing, though- I don't read anything other than this board about this show.

Stephen's been saying that Joeis getting the winner's edit, but the "winner's edit" is something they've joked about for a while because I think Rob doesn't think it's a thing and Stephen does. But i agree that it's possible Joe is #1 target after the merge. He could be a threat once it's down to individual immunity, and it seems like people like him. ProfCrash, you hit the Kass nail right on the head. She thinks she's a lot smarter than she actually is, and can't stop talking about how smart she is (thinks she is). It's bad enough when someone keeps trying to prove that she's a genius and re an idiot, and even worse when she isn't a genius and doesn't realize it. She drove me crazy during her season, and listening to her bash the players in this season certainly didn't improve that situation.

If I remember correctly, Carly did that mostly on her own. I think that's one of the reasons why Operation: Alcoholic seems so much worse to me. Morgan and Kiki sitting around scheming and plotting, on several occasions, and never stopping to say - Hey,what are we doing??? Carly was desperate and impulsive; I don't remember her plotting it out with other people for days and days. Could be misremembering though. Another reason I find this even worse than what Carly did to AJ? Carly hated AJ and had no real connection to him. Michael is Morgan's brother and Kiki's ex- it just adds another level of hideousness to it.

Did we know that Rosalie was a corporate spy? Wasn't she a nurse? And why does Nik care about ELQ? Most importantly, why do bother trying to make sense of this stuff? "First of all, I got no beef with you" and "Spinelli is a friend of mine"? Sonny shouldn't even be a part of that ridiculous conversation. His mumbling mobster routine only made it worse. He was really trying to be the godfather, wasn't he? This is so dumb- I really, really do not need a Sonny/ Spinelli training montage. Nathan should have just cold clocked him and been done with it. Excellent call, ulkis, that Spinelli will let Nathan beat him up and then milk it for all it's worth. And I'm sure Maxie will continue this ridiculous maturity backslide and fall for it hook, line, and sinker. I forgot how much trauma baby Jake went through in such a short lifetime. Poor thing. I like the Lulu and Maxie friendship. They're kind of fun together, even when the substance of their conversations is nonsensical. I can't wait to watch Morgan hit up SpyderFynder to find out what drugs interact with alcohol. I wonder how that dummy would phrase it...

It's a punchable face only a demented and controlling mother could love.

Oh, TheGourmez, that's so cute, trying to make sense of any of this. I admire the effort.

​ That's terrible Rodney! He offers something to hate for everyone. He's an equal opportunity offender.

Dan's "women need to be manipulated" schtick was offensive and annoying, but Rodney's schtick was downright hateful and a little bit frightening. I have no doubt that he would actually grab his girlfriend/wife and put her over his knee if he felt she needed a good spanking to put her back in her place. Him going off about Lindsey's face tattoo was rather telling about his mindset, I thought. Sure, a face tattoo is weird. But a guy who has about 18 miles of ink on his body, including an actual paragraph about his sister, maybe shouldn't be throwing stones.

Ugh, that spanking thing. Hey, Rodney, you are not allowed to spank *anyone*, woman or man, unless they expressly ask you to do so. Without consent, spanking an adult is assault and battery. (Not going to touch the debate about spanking children!) And no, I will not go make you a sandwich.

Add the t-shirt to the production queue! See, this is the kind of thing that makes me irrationally dig my heels in on liking Spencer. I wish I knew why this was happening!!!

I've been trying to post here for a bit, but my internet has been possessed by the devil. Or maybe Rodney. Either way, I've lost three posts so far. Not at all frustrating. Thanks, Comcast! My points: You know who else loves his mother most and thinks all other women are trash? Norman Bates. Just sayin'. Do you think it's possible that Rodney's hatred of Lindsey had anything to do with her being a lesbian? Given his stance on traditional gender roles (and given that he is at best a sexist, and possibly a mysogynist), it would not surprise me at all if he was anti-gay. Regardless, he and Mike and Rodney are definitely sexist. This show has suffered from sexism throughout its run, but nothing has ever come close to what we saw tonight. Astounding. Even Jeff was bothered, and Jeff is the most brotastic bro who ever bro'd!! Speaking of Jeff, tonight he wore a green short sleeved button down with lots of pockets and buttons and snaps instead of a blue one. You go, Jeff. I feel bad for Max, because he's going to get a lot off shit for getting voted out this early. That said, any expert on the game should know that you don't *tell* people you're an expert! Saying shit like "more Cancers have won than Leos" (or whatever it was) is going to get you booted every single time. It's one thing to be a fan of the game, but don't let people know that you've spent years watching and analyzing the show on that level. He didn't say it, but apparently he made it really clear. Shirin. Oh, Shirin. To me, she's the fun kind of crazy. To watch. Not to live with!

Michael and Dante generally had a very good relationship, and Dante told Michael that while Dante wasn't a huge AJ fan, Dante knew that Michael loved AJ and was sorry that he died. Dante also supported Michael getting to know AJ. Historically, Dante was even closer to Morgan. It would be seriously out of character for Dante to find out about this plan and not intervene. He would try to stop Morgan, and he would sure as hell warn Michael.ETA: Yes, he was drunk. But getting drunk and hooking up with a girl, onc, is not exactly indicative of an addiction or moral flaw, especially for a guy his age. At least, it's not worth losing custody over. He didn't even have custody at the time, so it's imoossible to paint it as bad parenting, even. We've seen Michal hammered twice (I think), which is many fewer times than many of us were that drunk i our earlier twenties, I'd bet.

Oh, I think it's something many of us feared! (Apologies if you were being sarcastic- we really need a font.) Honest question- what do you think is so bad about it? To me, it's not that big a deal because the baby isn't getting any of the booze, Michael's not hammered, it's not a loud night club that could hurt her ears, and it didn't seem to an unreasonable hour of the day. I see people giving babies soda or smoking around them, and I think that's teerible, but a little drinking never bothered me. Of course, I grew up in a family where my parents regularly had wine or cocktails with dinner or parties at our house, and I'm sure that colors my opinion. I recognize that it's probably just different morals and values and/or relationships to alcohol, which obviously is fine, but I was just wondering if you wouldn't mind expounding on your thoughts about it.