SusanSunflower

John mentioned that Caroline and Kate had bought-out his half of the house (I can't quite imagine how they might afford to do that except with a ginormous mortgage based on two salaries)... does this mean John's likely to stay around, perhaps as a Caroline's paying lodger? Inquiring minds. I just realized that I think Gillian's musical beds -- including John -- occurred in blissful ignorance of Kate's death ... so John is definitely due some choice writing since the late-term death of the baby he never wanted with the girlfriend he didn't like much, who has now decamped, was largely glossed over (more contrived B.S. about a character I disliked enormously) -- anyway, that then coupled with Kate's death and, I presume, an adorable newborn that Caroline really doesn't have time to "mother" particularly with John so "at-hand" I'm guessing may turn John into a house-husband/au pair/nanny

I think Jared is totally freaked by Teddy at this point and Teddy so terribly wants to be the "cool older guy" ... First he gives Jared a beer (once Tawny goes to upstairs) only to discover that Jared doesn't like beer ... then, since Teddy seems to think learner-permit legal Jared is so eager for a chance to drive around, he ensnares Jared in driving over to stalk Tawny -- during which he's flashing massive open-container and getting drunk -- while he tells Jared a male-bonding story of his date-rape "How I Lost My Cherry" to Jared's utter disgust ... oh, and Teddy STILL still doesn't want to go home yet ... Doubtful Jared's gonna be stopping by to visit Teddy again soon, y'know? I suspect Jared knows something happened between Teddy and Daniel ... but I don't think he knows what... but who knows. Teddy "tattled" on Daniel and how far the story has traveled and what anyone thinks about it is unclear. ... seriously, stay tuned.

... a Lindbergh-like kidnapping has been suggested in the past ... (cough, by me) Yes, to how interesting it would have been if the dynamic had changed with Edith married to Strallen happily-enough, giving dinner parties and maybe having a dull and homely child ... Mary has always needed a run-for-her-money and it would have been another good Scarlet O'Hara moment if she rued the day she snubbed Strallen -- Hell, I'd be happy if the Gregson (Strallen's alter-ego) editor came from the dead ... Happy endings all around, with confetti, please!!

Sundance "leaked" S3E2 Thrill Ride on the same day as the E2E1 for-free on their website ... apparently that's the last free episode Sundance is giving away.

yes, it's bizarre .... I rewatched and again was dumbstruck that no one seemed to care that Celia was ruining Kate's wedding day ... it was all-about-Caroline ... which was more jarring because of the flimsy reason Kate's mother wasn't there -- for the wedding, for the pregnancy -- AWOL -- as if. Even when Celia arrives at the hospital it's all about Caroline and Celia ... Kate will never hold or know her child. Kate will never "give birth." The show then turns-it-around and Caroline is comforting/counseling Celia ... argh. I liked Kate. I thought she was nicer than almost everyone else, except maybe Alan who also seems to be remarkably nice, if a bit of a coward. There was no reason for Celia to not to like Kate -- but in fact, she apparently never bothered to even register Kate as a human being, her daughter's bride, a young woman about to get married (I think) "for the first time" (Caroline had already been married), excited with her first pregnancy (Caroline was a veteran having birthed two children) -- oh, and now dead ... goddawful plot "device" that makes everyone moving-right-along rather stomach-turning ... light a candle and have a moment of silence, have a funeral or a memorial service ... shed a tear, someone! Yes, it should have been a season/series closer or better yet, give it a twist -- have the newlyweds have a blow-out fight and have Kate decamp ... for France ... or America... taking/leaving the baby I don't care. How many more seasons do they hope to milk the first two seasons' popularity. Chillingly, Celia's obliviously self-centered behavior perfectly mimics early dementia/Alzheimer's ... may be that diagnosis can be the wow-finish

I suspect it will come out that Teddy hounded Tawny to marry him ... that he wasn't going to a prize like her "get away" ... He seems to operated on a very chilly "transactional" basis. I had assumed that his mother was dead, so news of the divorce intrigued me and made me wonder how old he was when that occurred and what triggered it (hope it wasn't his dad "falling in love" with the widow Janet, widow of his long-standing boss). Ive been curious about Teddy's apparent delusion that Daniel is about to usurp his position and possibly resents him altogether -- as in "the prodigal older "real" son returns to take his rightful place" ... I'm also curious about Amantha's obvious dislike of Teddy -- did he try to bully her too? was he in her opinion a spoiled brat or what? It was nice to see Jared's disgust at Teddy's story ... but I'm not sure that Teddy's "don't be like I was" was anything more than Teddy trying to keep Jared in his camp, rather than some sincere recognition that his first sexual conquest was date-rape. I think his threatened plan to (in the preview) to "take care of" Daniel by pressing charges and getting Daniel's parole canceled (20 year parole = how may years in jail, I'd guess 20 at least) is likely to turn out very badly ...

Nice!! He looks so young and vibrant (and vulnerable).

How much of the character of Caroline is author autobiographical? I gather that yes, her mother hooked up with a high school sweetheart ... but the rest? Caroline's wildly "undeservingly" successful dependent ex-husband? the love and marriage to a female colleague? -- I'm guessing the almost immediate widowhood is wholly invented ...

Yes, the authors really should watch "The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel" a few more times to refresh their appreciation of how to layer the salty and the sweet ... and even there -- to everyone's relief -- Penelope Wilton went home.to.England where she can meditate about her life choices off-screen. Alan is written as too much of a gentleman to just abandon all hope but when the audience if rooting for him to do so ... they're doing this plot/character development wrong. On another forum about another show, someone was shocked when I suggested that it was possible to say unforgivable, unforgettable things and to thereby effectively destroy the heart of a relationship ... A late in life second marriage does involve accepting the loss of the first hopes&dreams marriage and a lifetime of parenting children who may or may not have turned out as hoped for and a longtime single parent's you-and-me-against-the-world bond with said children ... but there has be some reassurance that there is yummy loving heart underneath and in spite of all the details and that you-and-me-against-the-world bond needs to be reset ... if a happy emotionally autonomous old age is to be had. Old folks over-involved in their children's lives too often make everyone miserable -- even if the babysitting is free. Eta: "Confirmation bias" is really a problem -- when you start to doubt that you really want to spend your life with someone, reality tends to reinforce those doubts ... ETA2: Someone who is deliberately mean is -- imho -- in a very different class from someone who is honestly bigotted or stubborn or wrong ... spitefulness should not be tolerated

Yes, I meant Caroline, not Catherine ... but actually "the only normal person on the show" was also the least defined, unless you want to watch someone perpetually mooning, in love ... The actress works constantly and could have played whatever they gave her ... but no, turning the show into some lesbian "odd couple" or any number of other newlyweds adjusting to real martial life ... meh. Might work, with good writers, but that's a another different show, not this one which is - afterall very much a your, mine and ours of the Lucille ball / Henry Fonda (1968) or Dennis Quaid/ Rene Russo in the remake -- about a second marriage of two "mature" individuals and their blended family ... Doubtless Sarah Lancaster could helm another show ... but that's not Last Tango ... which is -- cough -- about Celia and Alan

I was very concerned we were inevitably going to get into class and power dynamics in the Kate/Catherine union that were going to be distasteful ... far beyond the snobbishness of Catherine/Celia versus Gillian/John ... Any teacher marrying the headmistress would be in for some tugs-of-war, but Catherine (and Celia) acclimated exceedinly well to John's writing success ... ours, mine and yours becomes fraught enough with vast income disparities in upbringing and lifestyle. Catherine's ex-husband's very good fortune and her current position have allowed her (and her sons) live far beyond what would have been her means -- sans that unattractive now-loathed and considered parasitic ex. We didn't get a chance to see much of their dysfunctional and unhappy marriage although he certainly seems like a laid-back and attentive father ... now Caroline doesn't have to make.him.go.away as Kate had requested and was anticipating... bon chance.

I rewatched the ending of season 1 episode 5 (drip, drip, drip) to refresh my memory wrt Daniel's assault on Teddy which -- as I remembered -- IMHO, was not an attempt to "humiliate him" but to illustrate that sometimes there are forces against which no resistance is possible (this was indeed after Teddy asking Daniel if he had fought against his rapist or if he had just sat back and enjoyed it) ... to which -- for the second time Daniel had assured Teddy that he had no understanding of what he was talking about ...Teddy also declared that Daniel was to consider Tawny "off limits" and to stay the hell way from him as well -- all very dog-y-dog territorial macho posturing answered with an understandable "you're not the boss of me" .... I had forgotten how very very hostile Teddy was towards Daniel. In a previous episode, as I recall, he had admitted that he believed Daniel was guilty (very "where there's smoke" thinking -- "obviously" they wouldn't have convicted him if there hadn't been "smoke") ... Anyway, Teddy insists that "Daniel wanted to humiliate me" -- when in face, imho, Daniel was trying to teach Teddy a couple of lessons -- one being that he doesn't know what he talking about wrt resisting when being gang raped ... but more importantly, that shit happens against/about which you have no agency, no leverage to change the course of events (unless you have a sister named Amantha) ...but that Teddy has now managed to tell "through the grapevine" about his being "assaulted" in this bizarre fashion -- something that in fact no one needed to know about ... they also know that he was assaulted in this bizarre fashion and that he attempted to, but failed to bring changes that he now claimed he never wanted to bring ... (I'm not sure why the sheriff told him it was too late) ... needless to say, Teddy really doesn't think things through very well ... since IF Daniel had in fact wanted to humiliate him, he would have ensured there was an audience ... and there was none. And Teddy wasn't injured, and everyone has only Teddy's word on what happened and why. It wasn't a "wise" thing for Daniel to do but it really plays up Teddy's rather pathetic need to be the victim -- even when he is -- even when his life is/was near picture perfect until Daniel showed up.... He keeps reminding me of Mollie Ivins on GWB -- He was born on 3rd base and thinks he hit a triple ... though probably second base would be more accurate. I do wonder WTF Jared thinks about Teddy. Loved the detail of Teddy making a big deal out of getting him a beer -- mano a mano -- not knowing that Jared doesn't like beer. oh well. I'm guessing that except when there was actual news or a visit by Amantha, Teddy lived a fairly Daniel-free life most of the time ... the spoiled and indulged heir apparent.

I think pride and stubbornness would encourage them to stay put -- refusing to be run out of town, particularly if they believed Daniel is innocent . Why take a loss, pull up stakes, just to put down roots somewhere else. Sometimes the losses are just too great to make leaving the familiar worth it. They may not have been able to afford such a move after Daniel's legal fees. I suspect the case was notorious enough that they would have needed to leave the state. Who knows what other ties and/or friends they have in the community (though we have not seen much of that). I'm more surprised that Amantha isn't going back to college NOW (and did not do so before).

I think Teddy knows that his luck (material success) in life came as a direct result of working for his dad rather than merit or talent or initiative (hence the ill-conceived rim leasing innovation). His dad's success in life and material comforts are derived from marrying the widow of his good friend and longterm employer Daniel and Amantha's father ... If we were told what became of Teddy's mother, I've forgotten it... but there is that "born on third base" shame. Teddy reminds me of my younger brother (now in his 50's) who similarly was terribly self-conscious and adept at projecting success -- as if he really wanted everyone to envy him -- but which often in real life was serious control-freak tendencies so that -- like Teddy and Tawny's immaculate and tastefully decorated home, things had a not-quite-lived-in quality, even Stepford-ish perfection ... I find myself wondering just how long Teddy and Tawny have been married and what their ages were when they first met. Was Tawny a moldable/impressionable sweet young thing that somewhat older Teddy trained to be a perfect little wife ... until where we enter the story and he's bored with her bright little smiles and thoughtfully packed sack lunches and casseroles and she's bored with making them and his perfunctory head pats. I don't know if Teddy is "the dumb one" in his extended family or if he just is the most timid and least self confident about his actual abilities. I keep being startled that there's been no mention of Teddy's interrogation of Daniel about prison rape ... that was practically our introduction to the nasty-piece-of-work that is Teddy and which preceded the coffee ground assault (episode 5) ... Daniel survived a real rape -- as I recall -- awakening alone, soaking wet, and filthy and sore -- having been raped and assaulted in prison (their discussion was in episode 2) -- and went on, one day at a time. Teddy is/was apparently still undone by this symbolic rape event from which he emerged unscathed if "shamed." I was wondering about Daniel telling Tawny that he was in truth a bad man ... and when/where did we first hear him make that assertion and what he based that self-judgment. I get a feeling almost of "original sin" or that his negative verdict about his own morality (goodness) may have even preceded the murder/rape ... that he may have felt his conviction was inevitable, the fate of a bad man. Did he feel guilty for consorting with, sullying that beautiful young woman? Masculine sexual guilt? I was struck by Tawny's optimistic Christian belief in her absolution, having been forgiven ... and Daniel's more new testament "original sin" ...

any resolution will indeed piss people off ... but perhaps not nearly as much as continuing that story line into the next -- final -- season ... let's have Anna's pregnancy be the end of ever mentioning it again. It might have been more interesting if Bates had shunned Anna or even blamed her ... but that would have required extended writing that was avoided by angry broody and mysteriously briefly absent Bates (which pretty much erased all of whatever affection I still held for the character and the actor). The idea that the police would care at all -- even about a serial rapist of London servants -- I suspect is beyond the belief system of the time which largely relied on the "she asked for it" one-size-fits-all" rationale.

As an intergenerational thing, I keep being struck by the loss of awareness (generally) that we are (a) prone to recreate our parents' relationships (with us and their marriage) and (b) we can both learn from their mistakes -- and -- recognize when we are repeating them and avoid it -- and that it's good to do so. Like recognizing that if your parents are alcoholics, it's a good idea to maintain some vigilance about alcohol consumption and particularly -- as I learned -- the fact that most people are not -- in fact -- like your parents and that your idea of "normal" is likely quite skewed (growing up, all the adults I knew drank every day and night, continually, only some were considered "problem drinkers") ... also, that most people learn to set "better" boundaries ...

I've worked in some pretty hostile work environments but that was usually management rather than co-workers and co-workers could be tolerated for 8 hours and outlasted until they gave up or found another victim. Professionalism (health care) and the likelihood of needing co-workers assistance precluded being too spiteful (and it would not have been tolerated if it impacted job performance) -- but this was not a situation in which we were in competition with each other... and I also blame Carson whose activities outside of meal times are a mystery to me. It all just adds to the misery of being stuck in a position where praise (or even the chance to do something praiseworthy) is in short supply... just neatly uniformed beasts of burden and the endless routine helping rich folks with their activities of daily living (dressing, bathing, grooming) and serving meals ... yes, that is the contrast with US/DS, those folks were easy to care about because they cared about each other and not in a too much of a Little-House/Walton's sermonette kind of way

Now that you mention it, Milz, seems odd that Caroline as an educator, dealing with adolescents, hasn't psyched out her mother as a narcissist years ago ... which wouldn't necessarily change Celia but would change how Caroline reacts (and would have reacted for the last almost 20 years ago since her last wedding) ... and the aforementioned graduation... Narcissistic mothers who believe that the world revolves around them, and who force their children from a young age into caretaking them emotionally got cracked wide open with Alice Miller and Drama of the Gifted Child, even if Miller wasn't talking about narcissists, rather badly-mothered emotionally-needly mothers.

Felllowes really really wants to believe that downstairs is largely a nest of vipers .... much like upstairs ... with Carson and Hughes delighting in humiliating Moseley with Daisy and Baxter and Thomas and Mrs. Patmore in on the "joke" against a Moseley's ideas above his station; Thomas and O'Brien's scheming against his coworkers and divisive and insolent way toward Bates in particular; and Bates as grudge holder bar none ... Even Daisy and the cook can hardly bear each other half the time ... see also Violet's servants ... all sorts of jealousies and unrequited love ... just like, but with less discretion and sensitivity, upstairs. It's one of the big contrast between US/DS and Downton ... US/DS upstairs and downstair people cared about and looked after one another, even when they had their disagreement. However, it must be said that Mr. Hudson would never have tolerated a Thomas with his history of petty theft and meanness. Exactly how Carson fills his days between meals is a mystery. US/DS would have laughed at Moseley and his pretensions but never sabotaged him.

It was a massive miscalculation in many ways -- not the breath of fresh air to follow the saintly John Bates' interminable legal travails ... I thought it just might have worked if (virginal) Daisy had been the victim ... but really no one wanted to see a rape in the food preparation area ... bleech. I suspected it was a plot development to keep the actors on-board (particularly Froggatt, but also Coyle -- y'know acting) ... and for Fellowes a chance to "go dark" ...

I want funny, smart and strong Gillian to come back ... her calling Caroline "for advice" to -- plot necessity -- spill her secret was let-down, pure sitcom ... the dialog and the acting continue first-rate and seeing Rupert Graves in a multi-sentence normal-charming-person role was a delight (as always). Was Caroline not-intending to tell or invite Gillian? Did I miss/forget something or was she uncomfortable with her social-worlds intersecting to include rusticated Gillian? I don't think Celia will make much of a fuss about the wedding with a baby on the way ... babies on board change all sorts of things. I hope John and Gillian don't end-up hooked up and both heading off to rehab arm and arm. I didn't feel a lot of chemistry between Gary and Gillian but that can grown and his find-my-pa "mission" and her thinking it was a dinner date was hardly conducive to "chemistry." Oh, and it was Valentines Day ... Oh well, I'm glad it's back ... I was thinking it felt a bit "clunky" but I think I just forgot how boymeetsgirl-boylosesgirl etc. it always was ... Caroline certainly is Celia's daughter -- my sympathy is with Kate.

about Irene from Galsworthy preface: ""Galsworthy in a foreword to the complete edition writes that he deliberately had Irene present only through the eyes of the other characters. He calls her a 'concretion of disturbing beauty impinging on a possessive world.'"" http://scandalouswoman.blogspot.com/2009/05/scandalous-women-in-fiction-irene.html ===================================================================== I rewatched maybe 6 months ago and was fascinated this time by Winnifred and bad-boy Darte and bad-boy Prosper Plafond ... contrast to Soames with Irene then Annette and Prosper Plafond and realizing that of the 5 Forsyte heirs -- Winnifred, Soames, young Joslyn, and then George and Francie -- there were surprisingly few surviving male heirs to carry on the name from Wiki: -- June, Young Jolyon's defiant daughter from his first marriage; engaged to an architect, Philip Bosinney, who becomes Irene's lover -- old maid -- Jolly, Young Jolyon's son from his second marriage; dies of enteric fever during the Boer Wars - dead -- Holly, Young Jolyon's daughter from his second marriage, to June's governess -- married to Val -- Jon, Young Jolyon's son from his third marriage, to Irene, Soames's first wife - moved to Canada -- Fleur, Soames's daughter from his second marriage, to a French Soho shopgirl Annette; Jon's lover; later marries a baronet, Michael Mont -- now Mont -- Val, Winifred and Montague's son; fights in the Boer Wars; marries his cousin Holly ** -- Imogen, Winifred and Montague's daughter (??) (daughter) Anyway -- Did the family fortunes which prospered over preceding generations hit some turbulence as that wealth "allowed" Soames to indulge both in his art collecting and in a poorly conceived marriage to Irene (and then Annette) and Winifred to indulge in Montague Darte and his spendthrift and gambling ways?? Were both Soames and Winifred desperate to marry as rebellion against the dull bourgeois comfort of the Soames "dynasty" -- I could never figure out if Profond was a good witch or a bad witch -- I love Michael Maloney the actor who plays him and his character is the rare source of humor or leavening, but why is he in England (on the lam?) and is he really as wealthy as he seems (or does he just have an amazing knack for ingratiating himself with the ladies?) There are moments when he seems to have evil intents, but then no. Did Soame divorce Annette? Did she run off with Profund? Memory (and google) these details escape me .... Wealth also "allowed" Soames to build that intended "golden cage" of Robin Hill -- ostentatious and lavish enough to make most observers blame Irene if the marriage failed -- which of course it did.

Just thought I'd mention that this show is available on PBS for re-watching at your leisure (or for those who don't get BBCA) http://video.pbs.org creating an account (just an email address, iirc) does help with transmission and it will remember where you left off -- if like me, your internet is slow enough that it STILL pauses and patience requires short 1/2 hour watching sessions.

Irene's long relationship with Young Joslyn occurred as a direct result of Old Joslyn's will leaving her £15,000 -- Young Jos was Old Jos' designated administrator of the bequest and the relationship was one of platonic friendship until (a) after Young Jos' wife died and (b) Soames had threatened (with serious intent) to sue for divorce on the basis of infidelity citing young Jos as correspondent. to wit: wiki: ""By the time his son Jolly dies in the South African War, Irene has developed a strong friendship with Jolyon. Then, Soames confronts young Jolyon and Irene at Robin Hill, falsely accusing them of having an affair. Young Jolyon and Irene assert that they have had an affair since Soames has it in his mind already. That gives Soames the evidence he needs for divorce proceedings. That confrontation sparks an actual affair between young Jolyon and Irene, leading to their marriage and the birth of a son Jolyon 'Jon' Forsyte."" June did NOT forgive Irene for a very long time ... but as she made peace with her father, she made peace with Irene (although I agree, story in general, with Irene "stealing" both Bossiney and her long lost father could have used a happier ending for June ... beyond that of being a peripheral Bloomsbury-type character) Finally, Gina McKee's resemblance to any number of Modligliani's women is striking ... and I don't agree that she was cold or passionless, rather -- for most of the story until actually divorced from Soames -- extremely vulnerable with her place in "polite society" nonexistent ... In order to survive, she needed to maintain a spotless reputation .. Old Jos' bequest freed her from needing piano pupils and the approval of their parents.

Yes, Irene is a rare and special orchid ... which is why Soames is determined to acquire him for his collection of perfect and rare things .... I think McKee's performance makes much better sense when you compare Irene to the sister ... and you appreciate that her life and personality are very private, a bit shy but carefully observed and deeply felt ... she's as far as can be from being "part of the clan" ... it's an unfathomable gap, however, she is present, she does participate, and she does pitch in -- in her way -- and over the decades become a valued and trusted member. She genuinely is sorry she could not get over her revulsion at being Soames' wife and property. I don't know -- I liked her and liked that she was NOT a wizard or a paragon or vindictive or a doormat ...