SusanSunflower

But actually Edith was just impossibly inconsiderate, not only of Mrs. Drewe's "preferences" but also the other children who would catch on and likely tattle, at school perhaps (to Sarah Bunting perhaps???) about the fancy lady who showed up all the time to play with their new adopted orphan of a sister. I vaguely remember some talk about Edith coming by every day, but Edith's actual arrivals -- as shown -- seemed to always be unexpected and interrupting. Plus Edith never showed a whit of interest in the other kids, which usually arouses interest if not jealousy. Babies who can't walk or talk aren't endlessly fascinating to children, while most are eager to show off whatever new skill or trick they've leaned "look at me. look at what I can do!" Was money changing hands for Marigold's board and care? Mrs. Drewe had every reason to suspect that Marigold was the product of some illicit relationship between her husband and Edith. Meh, I think in a passive-aggressive self-defeating way Edith was ensuring the arrangement with the Drewe's would not "work" via rejection of Mrs. Drewe's rights to privacy and control of her home/family -- an ugly "revenge" on an innocent woman who did her no harm -- because Mrs. Drewe enviably had a home, a husband, a brood of small children -- her own happy-enough life. eta: Sybil was to marry Tom when she left -- and as I recall there was talk about "her money" and I vaguely recall something about her receiving half of it -- which Tom then refused to touch even to pay to travel back to Downton (??) .... someone else will know.

I figure Richard Carlisle could bravely rescue the (he's alive!!!) Gregson (thereby transforming Carlisle into a new man with a better "values") to then return him a damaged Gregson to Edith and win Mary's heart and - cue double wedding!!!! With infusion fresh-blood from these two not-born-wealthy men of action Downton is saved physically and then saved spiritually by Mary and Edith in living memory of Cora and Violet (dispatched by some Dickens-esque trainwreck or something) with Robert (like Scarlett's addled father) left to aimlessly wander the unoccupied wings and floors or Downton unable to reconcile himself with the loss of his devoted dog without the steadying hand of the women who made him what he was.

Yes, for the first years, I assumed Cora's ditzy vacant quality was a self-protective mechanism developed over 25 years of having a disapproving and sharp-tongued Violet as a mother-in-law -- eventually whatever sharp edges Cora might have had got worn down so that very little could arouse her to "bother" to pointlessly voice an opinion about anything. (Now I think it's just that JF is rather remarkably unambitious when it comes to character and story development -- there's a lazy "good enough" for PBS quality I find so frustrating. It really wouldn't have taken much more effort, and no expense at all to include just a bit more detail to flesh these characters out 'properly')

Seriously, one would think he had never met George ... delivered the old fashioned way ....

Does anyone know if this sudden surge in speculative homeownership among the servant classes has any basis in real reality-reality (rather than JF's rose-colored glasses fantasy?). We had Anna and Bates with that London house; Mrs. Pattimore's inheritance, Daisy's farm and Carson/Hughes retirement investment -- Thomas should have plenty saved after all these years. Moseley and Baxter are new but younger and probably eminently employable for a few more decades. (Violet should poach both of them. I'm not amused by her petty tyrant of a butler, while her maid probably does the bulk of the work under his watchful eye and constant criticism.) I'm not sure who the houses that Tom and Robert keep talking about building are intended for, beyond vague "replacing horrid run down old tenant buildings" but since they then talk about selling them, I'm not sure that it's not a money-making scheme. ...

Edith's remorselessness towards Mrs. Drewe in conversation with, I think it was, her mother made Mary look positively cuddly in comparison. It did not read as "I can't deal with her pain right now" so much as a declaration that Mrs. Drewe and her feelings wrt Marigold did.not.matter -- See also leaving Marigold with a strange new babysitter in a hotel. What work would be more pressing than getting some sort of a place to live and some permanent household help. I agree that this isn't "The Front Page" and Edith isn't Rosalind Russell, but damn it, I'm amazed she manages keep herself fed. Poor Marigold! Oh, never mind. Downton will provide. eta: I'd be very surprised if more is coming on the Gregson front ... it should have arrived already ... funeral arrangement, his wife's care, his apartment, even his office. Edith would not have immediate access to funds minus a death certificate and probably probate/settling his estate, so she would need, at very least, to have meetings with his lawyers, even if she was (and I think she was) power-of-attorney.

Malicious means, afaik, to intend to cause harm, and I've already said that I do NOT presume that Mrs. Drewe intended to harm anyone ... that she went out of self-protection and wanting her side of things to be heard. If she was angry (and I wouldn't expect her to have "gotten over it" so quickly), she was confronted by -- I have to imagine -- by Cora's utter ignorance of the situation, so one-mother-to-another an understanding was struck. The "Mrs. Drewe is too busy to care for another child" scheme is stupid in oh so many ways, but insulting Mrs. Drewe's ability to care for her adopted child, and then forcing her to be part of the ongoing lie is ridiculous, but the whole bloody scheme is stupidity squared). eta: And someone, anyone, needs to give Edith a real dressing-down wrt using people, lower-class and poor people and servants, badly -- conduct unbecoming and unworthy of a Grantham (or whatever).

I think it was the combination of Mr. Drewe in first class -- which, no, I don't think Edith would have normally paid for -- anymore than Mary would have Anna travel with her in first class when they go to London (even clean and proper Anna, lady's maid, much less Mr. Drew, pig-farmer). (I may be wrong about this, but I don't recall ever seeing Anna traveling "with" Mary on the train). The odder thing was that Edith asked Mr. Drewe to help with the luggage (why would she ask him, with porters others better to ask such assistance from) and then they all exited and he "popped" into their vacant carriage, to be last seen as the train pulled out with baby on lap -- Did Anna recognize Marigold? ... plain odd, unusual even.

Well, we've already seen Anna put 2+2 together and unless Mrs. Drewe is as friendless as Edith, her friends and neighbours and anyone she might have complained to about Edith's peculiar and overbearing "affection" for her youngest child will put 2+2 together quickly enough. I guess I don't see Mrs. Drewe being "malicious" in wanting Cora to know what her daughter has been up to. Obviously, ymmv. Mrs. Drew (hopefully with Mr. Drewe's assistance) has had time to process that the child was not -- in fact -- an orphan and is now with its mother and that she has no legal standing whatsoever wrt any any claim on the child.

I suspect Mrs. Drewe was motivated by self-protection and the need to provide for her other children who (like herself) were completely innocent of any wrongdoing, but might be forced out of their present situation due to a secret agreement reached between Edith and Mr. Drewe. I don't think Mrs. Drewe had any "standing" to make trouble for anyone. If she spread the story of Edith and her bastard daughter, she and her family would be cast out, damage done, unforgiven forever. It might look like a "trump card," but in real life, any attempted blackmail would be untenable and self-defeating. Fellowes (of course) does not tell us why Mrs. Drewe went to see Cora, much less what she said or what, if any, agreement they came to, except probably some reassurance from Cora that her discretion would be rewarded and the Drewes would not be 'punished' for their involvement in Edith's deception. There's no reason -- one way or the other -- afaict -- to think Mrs. Drewe had any idea what Cora knew at that point. She may have simply wanted to make sure that Cora knew that Marigold was Edith's child, Cora's grandchild -- because she had seen the birth certificate.

Yes, Isobel is wise to let Merton simmer ... he failed miserably at that dinner, a preview of coming attractions, I'm afraid. I'm not big on chivalry but since the times and situation made it impossible for Isobel to defend herself (not her dinner table, not her invitation), it fell to Merton to control his sons (or leave with her on his arm). The Blake/Mary kiss was ridiculous (and ridiculously stagey). I saw some chemistry between Blake and Mary early on -- but yes, there's none now. I do wish he'd led her on only to drop her precipitously -- like a stone -- to go to Poland. I suspect at times some of the choppiness is when Fellowes realizes a scene "isn't working" -- since he's described as writing "under the gun" but there's no excuse and the big gaps in logic and "how real people behave" is distracting. To wit, didn't they say they had found Gregson's body? So, is his corpse to be returned, buried, funeral and crypt and all? His widow might bear a mention. In contrast to others, I found myself eye-rolling at Cora's "But, I'm her mother and I should have been told" thinking instead, "you're her mother and you should have noticed or simply wondered what you middle child was up to for the last year" Especially after she returned from a year abroad dejected and miserable. If Edith had been shown working at magazine -- occupying herself with work -- Cora's lack of commonplace conversational politeness might be excused, but she wasn't and it isn't. Oh well. Worst mother ever.

You remind me, I remembered "little Sybbie" recently and the bruhaha about religion, has little Marigold been baptized? Was that covered at some point? It's quite perplexing how financial matters, I.e. money, is never mentioned. Somehow, there is money for Edith's year-long sojourn abroad and she has the wherewithal to pay for trains and hotels in her running away -- an allowance? or simply trading on the Crawley name and credit extended? I've wondered this repeatedly wrt Tom as well. Whether or not he decides to run away from home, does he have money to buy a steamship ticket and travel with or without daughter, to America or anywhere else? If he has money, where did it come from and does he have control over its administration?

Fellow's fantasy land of the upper classes has so few even slightly sharp edges -- see Violet for "daggers" -- when in fact this show could use some serious elbows, claws and hissing. Almost none of these characters -- after all these years -- has an "inner life" -- instead they still mostly have "Hello I'm ____" name badges -- Even Anna and Bates (who most obviously do not communicate with one another) -- have they been trying to get pregnant? Has every month been a disappointment or did their sex life end with Anna's rape? -- Why don't we know these things? Has Edith been writing a column all along? (Seem impossible to me, but I think we'd all "like" Edith more if we knew she was using her "little gray cells") If Mary is a top-notch equestrian, steeple-chasing or whatever, shouldn't we have seen her at least dressed for riding a bit more often? Why doesn't Cora corner Tom to find out about the buildings which are about to be build on "her property"? Why isn't she taking Tom for a stroll down to the proposed construction site? How many houses are they building for how many families? I agree, Dan Steven's was like a dog with a bone whenever he was given something to do, and it was infectious -- Tom's character really came alive in their interaction. I'd like to be more interested in the plot lines but the story is not giving me anything to care about. Given how "flat" so many of the regulars are playing their characters, either it's a directorial choice or everyone is bored to death -- only Lily James has been a revelation, and a well-modulated one at that, I suspect it was a matter of "when they let her do something" as well.

It was charming watching Dan Steven's generally succeed in looking like someone who did not instantaneously regain full use of his lower limbs ... and then so touching pine for Lavinia. He did manage to "bring something out" in Dockerty that's sorely missed. I hope they are paying her very well but she needs to step up in her game if she wants to have a career after Downton. The eye asymmetry for some reason is more noticeable -- but lots of folks have asymmetrical features -- but it's best hidden by a certain animation defying the lingering gaze. Uma Thurman's recent "omg what's she had done" seems to have been mostly just removing a lot of eye make-up to expose rather small, strikingly asymmetric eyes and rather plain features (losing postpartum baby fat is often rough -- see also Jennifer Conneley and Jennifer Garner -- who look fabulous but much smaller bones and just "different"). I guess that's part of my annoyance -- everyone seems to staid and wax-works like, except oddly Bates who shed a good 15 pounds and looks rejuvenated. Everyone else looks over-fed. And the wigs are awful. ... and none of them appear to have a gimmer of a sense of humor about anything ...

My unpopular opinion is that this last episode Season 5 Episode 6 was the most irritatingly disappointing I can remember since Matthew got up and walked ... Edith finally "makes her break" and there's no victory to be seen ... just Mrs. Drewe's caterwauling in the background (and I'm sympathetic to Mrs. Drew). I did want Edith to somehow end up in custody of her little girl and away from Downton, but instead got lonely, unloved Edith, alone again naturally. Even in a 2-1/2 hour movie so much time spent on Mary, Mary's haircut, Mary's equestrian adventures and fending off the boyfriends was more than enough for a scene in which as far as I can recall nothing happened. Equestrian eye candy, Ralph Lauren clothes tie-in, and more they-do-things-differently-over-there because they're British and it's the 1920's. Handsome as he is, nobody liked Gillingham much (either on the show or in comments), so his refusal to stay "gone" is just more filler that might well be put to better use setting up the end of this season and the farce that will be season 6 if indeed it's the last (which at this point I think Fellowes would be wise to make-it-so). Despite amusing forays into displaced Russian aristocracy (and Violet's little flirtation) and Cora's little Bricker flirtation and the end (oh please) of Gilligham and the triangle that was Mary-Blake- Gillingham and apparently marrying off both Rose and Isabel and the departure (again none-too-soon) of Miss Bunting -- the end of Season 5 fast approaching -- will leave us much the poorer for "fresh air" with everyone and the dust settling back into whatever they were doing before ... Next season, I think, might bring the stockmarket crash (1929) but it would be a rush, but I think we all want to be spared most of the next 8 tedious years unless something interesting happens (and illness, dog or human, does not count, not something I'm going to watch a whole season of -- even Violet or Robert or Cora's final gasping breaths - perish the thought).

"Mary" has become a paperdoll again, circa end of season 1 and most of season 2. Does she have any feelings for anyone, even herself? Does she lie awake at night wondering about her future, much less her future happiness with Blake or Gillingham, or just merely how fetching she will look in tomorrow's outfits and what clever thing someone said. Did Anna see her new bob? If so, I missed it. Short hair may free up a lot of time but also reduce their "private intimate time" -- probably a relief for Anna, but Mary, like Edith has no confidante or woman friend just to "be there." I have had long hair most of my life because my quite thick and wavy hair does not behave when short, cannot be blown dry (not Mary's problem, but still) and responds wildly to humidity. I hope there are resources for Anna in trying to keep Mary presentable (since I don't think her hair is naturally straight or shiny). Since it's not going to be Gillingham, and I don't think it's going to be Blake (though I'd rather like it if Blake played a not-so-funny trick on Mary in this regard) -- I wonder when this "new man" will arrive and what his attractive qualities will be.

yes, Mrs. Drewe even cried and had me near tears for her .... Edith just got more grimly determined. I'm sorry they didn't have little Marigold shrieking hysterically as would be completely natural -- not matter how "civil" the adults are trying to be. It was ghastly and I'm of very very mixed feelings -- Why not at that point trust Tom to drive you around to do some errands or - since she drives -- simply drive herself to buy supplies or order things to be delivered to the hotel? All very slap dash and dangerously impulsive ... I'd half expect a suicide attempt .... maybe the gas tap. Still wondering about Gregson's gorgeous flat -- I remember beautiful windows -- why would she not have a key? even if shut-up when he left, since he did intend to return, all she would need do is remove the dust cloths and get on with it. I just wish I thought Fellowes would let her start a new life in London (as many of us have been wanting for her). Very sad that Edith doesn't even have a maid she can enlist to help or accompany her, even someone at Rosmund's house, some friend or confidante. Up the creek, minus paddle.

IIRC, Turing was prosecuted after outing-himself as homosexual in the course of a police report about a burglary of his home that he suspected had been committed by a low-life friend of his lover ... no complaint, no witnessed bad act, and that was in 1952.

Anyone want to hazard a guess just how long it's been? I was realizing that I never know how long is supposed to have elapsed between episodes -- if any time at all. Edith called someone at the end of last episode -- I thought either to check on Gregson or plot her escape. (Edith desperately needs a baby nurse or at least a go-fer to do her shopping and assemble needed supplies before the hotel evicts her for using bath towels as diapers -- unless the hotel's concierge is willing to rustle up someone, no questions asked. One hopes she at least packed a suitcase for herself.) See Isobel keeping Merton "waiting for an answer"? How long has the Prince been unaware of Violet's efforts to find the Princess, and just how quickly was the miracle of locating her achieved? Marigold does not appear much older than (the much too old) she appeared last episode.

Did I miss it or do we know who Edith called at the very end of Episode 5? Before getting the Telegram-of-Death regarding Gregson? I had thought she was arranging her running-away-from-home at that time ... but did she merely make a hotel reservation?

I felt sledgehammered by this episode -- oh, and not in a nice way -- but with the reemergence of Gregson, Gregson's wife, will, magazine and publishing company, I was struck to remember Gregson's gorgeous apartment ... which certainly would be nicer and more private than a hotel for someone navigating full time toddler care (infants are so much easier) ... of course, Edith's real problem is Uncle Julian who does not want to lose the character by letting Edith move on with her life .... (see also everyone else -- Mary, Isobel most obviously). Anna and John Bates -- just OMG no. And that train ticket that could "prove his innocence" ... Carson, Hughes, Mrs. Pattimore at the cottage -- spare me. Violet and the Prince -- open the curtains and then window and that new maid has already worn out her welcome afaic... Thomas has always been a problem for me since the character should / would have been sacked in the first season and in just about every season since ... I pretend I don't see him.

... and to round it out, I thought he married Mary in the end "for the good of the family" and to make everyone happy ... but eyes wide-open about what he was getting into ... the entire family, including his mother, had been through so much and -- with Lavinia gone, Mary forgiven both for being a snob and for Richard Carlisle (ughh, how how could Matthew have forgiven Mary becoming engaged to him!!!) -- he took the plunge. I always doubted that Carlisle was sort to wait for marriage ... particularly with Mary "damaged goods" which he knew ... whatever ...

Then his being so very understanding is quite understandable. I always wished he had admitted that he and Lavina and done the deed (even more than once). Mary and Pamuk suggested that the show was going to sizzle with chemistry ... even bodice rip from time to time ... bait and switch to be sure. I'm not fond of sexually explicit TV, but the chasteness of so very many characters for such long periods begs belief -- and is unnecessary -- Thomas might well enjoy trips to London and visiting a friendly bar or staying in a particular hostel, or a friend at another big house (I do remember his stupid blackmail attempt)... The women were stuck with "being good" because of pregnancy, but in Upstairs/Downstairs the relationship between Rose and Sarah hinted at a physical relationship without really suggesting lesbianism in either (as far as I remember) ... Of course even in the 1970's there were probably a lot more viewers who had grown up innocently sharing a bed than there are now, but I don't really "know" that, but sharing bedrooms was definitely commonplace, so showing that in Eaton Place, London, England where it snows and the bedrooms were unheated, was not particularly "suggestive".

Lavinia's role in saving her father's fortune (which later saved Downton) means nothing obviously... source: http://downtonabbey.wikia.com/wiki/Lavinia_Swire "" During her first visit to Downton Abbey, Lavinia is overheard arguing with Sir Richard Carlisle by Lady Rosamund Painswick. Lady Rosamund, wondering what the argument was about, asks Lady Mary Crawley to look into it. Lavinia confesses to Mary that her father owed Sir Richard a large amount of money and was unable to repay him. When Lavinia went to Carlisle to plead on her father's behalf, he made a deal with her: he would forgive her father's debt if she would deliver to him some papers of state in the possession of her uncle, Jonathan Swire, a Liberal minister. She agreed, stole the papers from her uncle and delivered them to Sir Richard. The publication of information in the papers triggered the Marconi scandal. Mary sympathizes with Lavinia because of her own scandalous secret in the matter of the death of Kemal Pamuk and so Mary decides not to tell anyone in the family about Lavinia's history with Sir Richard."" This may be an unpopular opinion (or it may be Lavinia's "bravery" has been forgotten, but Lavinia acted PROACTIVELY and saved her father and thereby saved Downton.

I think at this point we should all pause to be grateful that Robert didn't kill Bricker