SusanSunflower

But her rejects are all likely to marry someone else soon enough ... and suitable/eligible men of a certain age are not a renewable resource.... Didn't even Rosamund want a stable partner only to be humiliated ... how did that go?

Mary, even though she doesn't need to marry, should be concerned about being left on the shelf. I recall my mid-30's realizing that there were very few attractive men I met who were not married who were not recovering from not-too-distant divorces ... Probably worse among the upper classes, always reluctant to divorce when living apart was so well accepted (and cheaper) -- even worse post-war ... and she's so fussy ... only the pretty ones, with money, who will not take me far from Downton, if at all.

I poked around the internets and cannot find the name or age of the actress playing Marigold (yes, usually with babies it's more than one), but that child said "bye bye" and has been shown walking or toddling (I'm pretty sure). It's part of what makes Edith seem so psycho -- she treats Marigold as if she's a babe-in-arms baby. How long was she breastfeeding in Switzerland? How long ago did she leave Switzerland? Kids grow and change so quickly even when you're with them 24/7, but they do grow and change. (All that holding close may be to keep her features "vague" to make use of different toddlers less noticeable)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_Jews IMHO, it's hard to distinguish Jewish stereotyping here with so much American stereotyping overlay. While I didn't see or feel it, but I did wonder once or twice -- actually wrt Cora's apparent coldness towards and distancing from her mother, which I don't remember being fleshed out.

Thomas' "cure" (if that's what it is) appears not dissimilar to that which Turing endured under court order, in 1952, that led to his suicide -- I'm just saying. I'd like some fact-check about this being something available and advertised in 1924. Self-injectables can be tricky (see drug addicts), and extraction of hormones tricky as well (generic insulin notoriously needed to be refrigerated, some forms may well still do). eta: Agree about Moseley. Moseley and Baxter were becoming MVP's in my book and I was enjoying/anticipating another Moseley crush ... hopefully this time ... nevermind.

fixing odd format problem: Fellowes has avoided religion scruptulously, only touch that I remember was Sybbie's baptism. Possibly why Tom and Sybbie's wedding occurred off-camera Having Cora be 100% Jewish would have raised a lot of questions about her being "suitable" ... half-Jewish, father's side, new money ... not (so much) a problem, but it would have been mentioned. Tongues might not have wagged, but certain invitations might not have been made ... wondered about that with Mary's need of Anna's help ... Since none of the Grantham's appears religious except when an alternative is suggested, I'm guessing it didn't factor for Mary but might have for Anna. Wiki says:

It appears that many, probably most, of the "cowards shot at dawn" were exactly the self-same "conscientious objectors" shot at dawn. Conscientious objectors: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27404266 Cowards: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1526437/Pardoned-the-306-soldiers-shot-at-dawn-for-cowardice.html but also Other C.O.'s were tried and imprisoned, these apparently were transported to the battlefield, ordered to fight and shot when they refused. Only 18 were shot for cowardice.

Well done! I'm about to re-watch. Yes, they made Lizzy look like Lydia's poor relation.. care worn and unkempt as befits an over-extended mother, but not around prying eyes or guests. I'm too fond of the actress to reject that casting, but better costumes and a bit of pink in her cheeks would have let her shine as an wild English rose (still contrasted to her china doll older sister and her rather coarse and flashy younger sister Lydia) Six years later, Lydia's utter obliviousness wrt "living above their station" (even if feigned bugged me terribly). Who decided what about that? It would make sense for Lydia to continue to put on airs and wear clothes that were not paid-for, but several years later she must have had a few confrontations with the financial reality of her marriage (even if Darcy was helping them out). I was thinking about P&P and how easily, given time, Austen could have written a sequel of the couple's first year -- mostly Elizabeth's rapprochement with Lady Catherine, having Charlotte and Mr. Collins as a married woman, even Mrs. Bennett hysteria over Lizzy's first pregnancy, with some much more domestic crisis (one of the younger sisters? Mr. Bennett?) driving the plot.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/diaphragms.htm Requires more "skill" than a tampon, but not much with a bit of practice. If your cervix is easy to reach with your finger, putting in a cervical cap would probably be no harder than a diaphram; if not, I suspect it could be more difficult or easier to do it wrong. People who find the whole idea of inserting anything might find placement issues both beyond comfort level and anxiety producing wrt it being effective as a contraceptive to the point of "ruining sex." To successfully insert either without it being shown and/or demonstrated could be quite awkward and not necessarily successful. The diaphragm has the ease benefit of being palm sized, the cap the ease of being (as the reference says) egg-cup like. No mention of spermicide in the show.

When Sybil was alive it was possible to imagine that she, as the baby, was the most Cora like, the one who got the most and most loving mothering. Certainly Edith appears to have been a Wednesday's or Thursday's child, the overlooked middle child, no one's favorite. As the not-a-male-heir firstborn, Mary was daddy's girl. YES these are all cliches, but that's the paint on Julian Fellowes' paintbrush. With lovely and loving Sybil gone, we're left to try to "see" Cora in Mary and Edith. What do you see? I don't see much. Mary will quickly grow to BE Violet, I think, Daddy's Mommy. Edith is still odd man's out and gets caring and sympathy from her Aunt Rosamund -- but love? I don't remember seeing Edith getting love from anyone. True, she's not terribly lovable, but as with all of us, she probably didn't start out that way. (not good with names IRL either).

Watched last night. Pretty enough but awfully thin soup and seriously trope reliant. Hope it improves as we get to know the characters and setting. I'll stay tuned, but confess I was a bit disappointed when it was all over -- At the reveal, all I could say was, "Is that all there is?" and look at the clock because the hour could not be over, and it wasn't, but the story largely was. YMMV.

Strallen, I think, felt he should be flattered by Edith's attention, but also knew that she was desperate. His self-esteem was poor, particularly after the war, and before the war he was a widower rattling around an empty house, lonely and depressed. I think Strallen appreciated the company but didn't not think it was any sort of "match" and that much-younger Edith would realize that she had settled for "sloppy seconds" and traded a voluntary path for one of going through the motions.** He had had a happy marriage. She had never even had a real suitor. Remember what's his name who died on the Titanic who was courting a distainful Mary? That was not a Edith's relationship, her affection was not reciprocated (even if Edith carried a torch). That was watching an older sister and being jealous. ** Nobly, he might be considered to have recognized it to be selfish to put his needs ahead of her future happiness, less nobly he "knew" she would come to regret/resent the bargain and him. ETA: Robert and Cora's neighbor and friend, Strallen literally bounced baby Edith on his knee. He loved her as he loved all the girls as one loves the children of friends one has watch grow up. He had unquestioningly liked and cared about Edith long.time as well. Like Robert, I think he was squicked by the idea of sharing a bed, having marital relations, which is why he ultimately he could be deterred by Violet, who had strongly negative feelings about the pairing. (What they were I'm not sure nor am I finding what she said to him on the eve of the wedding).

Me, three. I thought it was unambiguous in one scene -- after Edith left after Mrs. Drewe found her "alone" with Mr. Drewe in the garden -- that she believes her husband has some sort of "romantic attachment" toward Edith. He's always telling Mrs. Drewe to be more understanding and NEVER taking her side. I'd be outraged that the other children are being obviously overlooked by Edith which children that age are quick to notice. Maybe she'll hurt him or take all the kids and go home to her mother -- wouldn't that serve them right? At least I'd like Marigold to shriek in protest at being wrenched from her mother's arms (and demand to be put down on the ground) and/or one of the other kids to kick Edith in the shin. The child is saying bye-bye ... she's old enough to be annoyed being treated like a doll.

Oh, I think it was probably just a flirtation -- but who knows? I don't find marital infidelity amusing or even terribly interesting as a plot device, but obviously I'm in the minority given the popularity of stories that revolve around same. My guess is that like Cora, Violet was "technically" and in reality blameless, forced to keep a "guilty" secret to avoid the appearance of impropriety -- Caesar's Wife

Anvil alert -- Violet's "dalliance" in Russia parallel to Cora and what's-his-name?? ETA: I actually didn't see it until the last few posts, but ... It's Fellowes. Question: Were Robert or Cora among those smirking?

Yes, you missed the reference to cliches apparently ... which was largely my point. Men don't especially like bitchy women. That myth is based on other myths. Women don't like being mistreated or raped either. Women and their "bad boys" is the analog

Men -- most anyway -- do like women who are passionate and responsive, even a bit "untamed" in bed. "Bitchy women" are more stimulating than passive, dull, cold-fish types. Many men discovered they really don't (MRA style) like women with opinions or who demand their freedom -- and unhappy, contentious marriages result -- and all that great make-up sex ... yes, all cliches that have found their place in many lives, including women-who-stay. I've been the "independent woman" someone thought they were looking for ... only to be frustrated when I resisted being tamed. Women have their bad-boys. It's not some XX versus XY, bitch versus bastard. I'm guessing some same-sex couples have the same dynamics -- who's on top.

Because of "as-written" issues, it was hard to see Lavinia for a long time. As Matthew's wife, she would have been a lively companion at table -- at home and as guests -- and a wife, Matthews' friends would have both admired and envied. Mary, not so much. With Mary, you get astonishing production values, a very static House Beautiful, but it's a largely empty, even vacuous house, in which what is "stimulating" is also fairly shallow and petty. Would Mary have been a warm and welcoming host to Matthew's colleagues? Oh, wait, he would not and did not have any, because he gave up his career to manage Downton, in part, likely because of the whole stigma against working for a living, even as a partner rather than an employee, see Dr. Clarkson and other professional.

ZoloftBlob -- I agree completely ... Conscientious Objectors were summarily executed ... dragged to the battlefield and given a "choice" -- fight or die -- and killed. Other were imprisoned harshly -- but they were conscientious objectors -- who were presumed cowards -- rather than refusniks. They weren't "draft dodgers" -- like Moseley -- they were "draft resistors" .. Oh and it was Farewell to All that -- Robert Graves. Mrs. Pattimore would not have asked, would not have stirred the ashes. Might have confessed her compassionate lie to immediate family so they might avoid doing so.

Fellowes, and as far as I can tell a lot of people, have issues with the treatment of conscientious objectors in WWI -- which was not about cowardice, it was "civil disobedience" against a war that many in the lower classes believed had nothing to do with them. Moseley was definitely made a coward and draft dodger (with Dr. Clarkson's quite "criminal" assistance at Violet's insistence to avoid his Moseley's father losing his son). The Butler in Gosby Park (played by Alan Bates) was also a conscientious objector (who absolutely quivered in fear that his secret shame might become common knowledge). To read "Goodbye to all That" and to consider Thomas Barrow (rather obviously) shot himself in the hand to be sent home, men broke fairly often. I think killing such "crack-ups" was not automatically brushed-over... too many men were cracking up -- getting sent home to rest -- and then being sent back to fight. This deserves a fact-check in my book. Perhaps some "Sophie's Choice" of killing someone shrieking in the trenches, endangering others might be excused, but in WWI, men were sent back to the front over and over and over ... it was brutal. Someone executed for "cracking up" probably would just be called a combat death to avoid anyone knowing about it. Like "friendly fire." YMMV.

Are the previews of next week supposed to be "secret" or "spoilers"? Do all PBS/American viewers see them? -- Regardless, I groaned, loudly. ETA: I'd actually rather NOT discuss them much less speculate what they "suggested" to me. Let me be surprised, in a good way. I'll be happy to delete if requested.

ITA, I had thought it was just a weekend (one could leave a diaphragm in for a weekend, though it's not recommended). I didn't see Mary as up-to-here fed-up with Tony, just sort of passively looking forward to him going to his room to retrieve his breakfast which he would totally bring into her room to "eat breakfast together" unless she slipped into the bath and made herself unavailable. She "knows" she's not that keen on him, but she's not willing to annoy him or make a honest declaration -- and beside, it's flattering to have someone so "besotted" with you, except he really isn't (AFAICT), he's going through the expected repertoire of a suitor, including (tiresomely, rudely) showing up at Downton a day later. How could he read her mind, when she's not even "inconstant" in her affections.

Mary dressed herself that entire week? Does she really know how? As a long-time diaphragm user myself, "does she really know how" made me laugh -- umm, no. I recall my first experience with using said contraception in some place other than my own home ... while camping .... just no, fortunately the man I was with was able to laugh with me, and that was with modern spermacides. The disposable contraceptive sponge was a wonderful thing -- It's back, now called "Today" -- No idea about any pro's and con's. Last time I was using them, rubber diaphragms got holes if they were not properly washed and dried and allowed enough "air" in storage. The disposables were a god-send in the case of a suddenly discovered emergency.

What exactly is Baxter's connection with Thomas Barrow that she knows his parents longtime? I missed that. (and I won't ask why being a childhood friend of Thomas Barrow**-- if that's what it was -- would be the only reference the Grantham's would require -- some prior employer, some proof she has the skills required, etc.) Also, Barrow's been at Downton a longtime now ... (amazingly silent rumor mill that no one downstairs failed to hear anything about Baxter)

.." And that Gillingham, rejected, might try to use what he has surmised about Mary's motives" Wasn't that the whole "foreshadowing" of her telling Gillingham, explicitly, that she had had her reputation -- what, tarnished? -- before and that absolutely positively would NOT be allowed to happen again (as she waited for room service after WEEK of illicit sex and romance with this same man -- a man she was about to throw over.) Fellowes' anvils.