phoenics

They did? These two eppies will probably be the best of the season then. They wrote Mama?

Okay - now that kind of story I could get behind... especially the Headless being back and badass again... and Henry NOT being Ichabod's son... And can Katrina die, please? Let's make her part of the dream too - she really DID die in the pilot after all.

Yes! Thank you for finding it!!

I wonder if this is because for the other characters, the other actors are SO GOOD that they elevate the material? But Katia cannot elevate it? Thus what you see is what you get? I still think Katrina is a terribly wrought character - I wish the writers had continued with their original plan to kill her off in the pilot.

Yes - I really respect Orlando for apologizing. He also started following some anti-misogynistic tweets and I think a fan tweeted an article or book about misogyny/sexism or something to that effect and he actually took it to heart and retweeted back that he was reading up on it. I think Katia probably was advised to take it down - or she deleted it herself after seeing the backlash AND after seeing the ratings plummet after HER episode, Deliverance. I think she probably looked at Ichabbie fans as "haters" and probably drank the Kool-Aid that Katrina/Ichatrina was a ratings bonanza. Joke's on her, I guess.

Ha! Dallas-ing Sleepy Hollow... interesting idea... I do think fans would revolt though - it's not fun to have an entire season erased - but I LOVE the idea of having Irving sitting down to write Sleepy Hollow... I kinda wonder if that might happen at the end - which makes me think neither witness will survive in the end... they'll just get sucked up to Heaven or something... leaving Irving to write what happened... That would be super cool - the idea of Irving writing what happened at the very end... I really like your ideas... I agree - where are the angels? Also - I saw a couple of promos for Constantine and it has "danger of apocalypse" all over it. It looks TERRIFYING - that USED to be Sleepy Hollow... but this season feels so neutered. I wonder if the show ever plans on going that route - with more angels/revelations level stuff?

I missed that "bazaar" reference before - I wonder what that's about... hmmm...

I've heard the argument that she was trying to make a joke, but I don't buy it. Her tone in some of her interviews makes me think she is salty at Ichabbie fans - as though they owe her anything. As an Ichabbie fan (I don't know if I ship them anymore given how Crane is a jerk), I didn't find it funny. It's like a racist making a "joke" about a minority - nope - not funny. There has to be some level of comraderie between entities to make any "joking" between them work - Katia clearly doesn't have that comraderie with the fans - not Ichabbie fans. Thus it was in really poor taste to me. Orlando made a really sexist comment in one of his live tweets for the show... I think he used the word p***y? It was really bad. He made one apology and then had a longer more extensive one that he linked to on his twitter. I think it may have been referenced earlier in this thread? ETA: I've been trying to search Orlando's tweets for it, but man he tweets a lot! LOL. I'm still looking!

Well - they need to FIRE the guy who replaced him (Goffman, yes?) and bring back the uber suit. NOW.

I love it that she tried to delete it - not knowing that fans would screencap that stuff and that it would live FOREVER. She probably needs to stay away from online media - because I suspect fans will drag her the next time she ventures out. At least Orlando Jones apologized (twice) for that offensive tweet he made - Ms. Katia is apparently above that. This article has a screencap of it - I remember reading it and going from disliking Katrina to out and out rage at the actress who portrays her and wanting the character DEAD. Any sympathy I had for her was GONE - it was an incredibly classless thing to do and I'm happy to see Karma biting her in the behind over it (her episodes dragging the ratings into the toilet). Literally - it's taking everything within me not to throw her into the same black hole I tossed Katherine Heigl (I refuse to watch ANYTHING she's in). http://www.tvjuriste.com/with-sleepy-hollow-ratings-slipping-why-would-an-insider-taunt-avid-fans/ As for the latest spoiler-episode description - I think all of the episodes are in the can. The problem is that they put all of their eggs in the Katrina/Katia and Mison/Ichabod basket (and all of their ensuing family drama with Henry, Abraham) and they are paying the price for it. At this point, if they get rid of Katrina - I hope they keep Hawley - as long as Irving/Jenny are brought back in huge amounts. I actually think Matt adds something to the show and if ANY character deserves to be the first to get axed, it should be Katrina, then Abraham (bring back Headless) and then separate Jeremy from Henry and then kill off Jeremy, leaving only the Horseman of Death behind. I liked Abraham, but the only purpose he serves is to give Katrina more storyline, so no - he must be sacrificed so she can forever get off this show... Seeing that she deleted that tweet actually added more rage since she didn't see the need to apologize. Knowing that the writers/showrunners risked this AMAZING show betting EVERYTHING on Katrina/Katia makes me so angry - I'm just done. I don't think they can fix the show in time to save it. They've already filmed everything. And even the critic I referenced in my last post didn't seem to get it that the issue was the Crane Family Drama and actually seemed more ready to dump Hawley than Katrina. But it's Katrina (and all of the plots connected to her) that need to go.

Of course it's damage control. And apparently the writers (see the podcast above) are reaching out to critics for "advice" on how to fix the show... Now they are listening... I guess... the question is will they honestly get it. Before Deliverance - the outcry was muted. There were rumblings and people were wondering what was up, but trying to give the show time to get itself together. After Deliverance - POW! Fans and critics alike literally turned on the show in a matter of days. DAYS! It should be extremely obvious to the writers what - or WHO - the problem is - because after those episodes featuring said character heavily - that's when the fit hit the shan. I don't think they have a choice but to kill her off - it's going to take a drastic move to get fans who have turned away from the show to come back.

LMAO! That made me laugh out loud...

I'm not convinced that the scene with the succubus and her tilting her head like Abbie was meant to convey that she was also Abbie... I just don't feel like the writers are going there... that would be too much like right. It would be epic if that was there though... EPIC... But I think it was very subtle - I do wonder - did the Succubus ever tilt her head like she did with Crane for anyone else before she went in for the kill?

And she can do that from the ghostly realm... I'm just sayin...

Wait - what? I thought in the scene with Crane she was wearing a black corset? What teal shirt? And was Abbie's shirt teal? Wait - huh? Can someone point me to these screencaps everyone keeps mentioning of the succubus head tilt? I still don't think the writers really put that in there - that would be too much like right - but okay - now I'm curious.

I'm not sure yet re: cancelation - but I did want to mention one scene from this season that sums up the batsh!t craziness the show used to be. That moment when Hawley first saw the Pied Piper demon? And he went, "Aw Dayum!" --> THAT. That awesome moment of "Holy crap this ish is really happening and wtf?!?" I still laugh my behind off at the thought of it. It reminds me of last season when the cops told Headless to put his hands on his ... Soooooo funny and irreverent, lol. One of the things the show has lost while it is drowning in the CFD is the element of contrast. Last year and early this year, the show had a perfect balance showing Ichabod against the modern world (and him ALONE in it). We got to react to him through the eyes of Abbie. In addition, whenever a regular Sleepy Hollower got to react to the Apocalyptic crazy happening in Sleepy Hollow, THAT reaction was always funny. I thought shirtless headless was a great example of that. The first 2 eppies of this season managed to hold onto that magic - but since then, it's all gone downhill. I still think the first episode of this season were written by the show creators and the new writers didn't have as much to do with those - even if credits say otherwise. The tone is/was just different.

It was probably a typo. 2.33 and 2.31 aren't that far off. Perhaps there was a slight uptick from DVRs? But I thought there was no adjustment at all. What's sad is that after Deliverance - there was a 60% uptick... people DVRd a lot for that eppy. I think they hated what they saw - because this week? NO adjustment. So the live viewers watched and that's it. People who DVRd Deliverance (probably because they didn't know what was coming) dropped it from their DVRs this week (likely out of disgust). I'd say that is extremely telling. I think this show is toast. The writers pissed folks off enough that they've dropped it from their DVRs. Wow.

Yeah - that was the only part of the article I disagreed with - no - NO more trying to make Ichatrina or Katrina work - especially by giving them "Ichabbie" scenes to try to do. It doesn't work. The whole charm of Ichabbie is the CONTRAST! Ichabod reacts - and Abbie side eyes (her side eye is like "Bless your heart" - sometimes it's sweet and other times it's cutting, lol) ... it works so well. That's WHY it works so well. Based on the comments I saw - a whooooooole lot of fans agree with the article AND us (especially about Katrina). I hope the writers are listening.

There are new writers this season. I have a feeling the first 2 eppies of the season were penned by S1 writers (if you look at Abbie's hair, you can tell - the hair that she had on promotion over the summer showed up in Episode 3 - before that she still had S1 hair) and then after that it was the new writers. It's a shame really.

Not good. Can't say the show didn't bring it upon itself. I hate seeing this happen though. If the show was living up to its most of S1 greatness you could argue the problem was lack of promotion and other similar stuff... but since it's changed its tone and focus, you know that's the problem. It's really sad, really.

Yeah - that was me. When I read an article with the actress who played the Succubus mention that she would play both Abbie and Katrina, I knew that the writers were violating their own Succubus mythology (hidden desires) just to take a swipe at Ichabbie fans by having even Crane's hidden desires be about his wife. Which is really stupid, btw, since it doesn't go with the Succubus mythology. IF they had her also throw some Abbie into it - then they intentionally left it ambiguous so they don't have to do anything with that and so they can tell any Ichabbie shippers who "saw Abbie in the Succubus with Crane" that they are just reading into it and seeing things and that Crane ONLY loves Katrina and - you know - it's EPIIIIC. The writers are truly shooting themselves in the foot. I wonder if they really don't get it - thinking that all they have to do is put Katrina with Crane onscreen and everyone will just love them without any effort on their part? Or is it that they don't understand just how special Ichabbie is? They think they can write an "Ichabbie" scene for Ichatrina and the same magic (or any at all) will just happen? Do they think Ichabbie is due to their writing? Because the scene with The Bachelor would have worked well with Tom and Nicole - but with Tom and Katia - NOPE! Poor writers... they think it's them that made Ichabbie great. It's mind boggling though - any other show would be foaming at the mouth with joy that they had a pairing with so much chemistry (Ichabbie) that they'd be milking it for all it was worth. I've never seen a show so determined to destroy the chemistry of its leads and replace it with another pair. It's mind boggling.

Lmbo Tippi. Added to that - fans continue to tune out. Last night's ep got a 1.5 rating. Not even the Mama episode will help, IMO. I think - most fans - after seeing such a huge focus on Katrina last night and the promise of more (Voldemoloch - love that name) folks probably didn't even see the Mama promo because they switched it off well before that. I'm stunned that after the first 2 eppies this season things fell off so badly. I used to love this show. What has happened to it is so sad. I don't think there will be a season 3 unless they do something epic right now. The opening scene - was that an attempt on the writer's part to see if Ichatrina could be like Ichabbie? Because it failed. Miserably. And I'm going to need the cranes to stop ordering Abbie around while they are living off of her - don't the writers see the ugly subtext of that? What an awful show. I tried to give it another chance and I will watch Mama to help with ratings but after that the show seems primed to go back to the CFD that is killing the show. I has a sad.

Back to the fears of retaliation by the writers (based on the twitter wars and comments in the media) - I still think that's happening. Although with the ratings for this week AGAIN at 1.5 they better think twice. The promo for Mama looked good but I don't think ratings will improve because it's too late. Advertising for the show like they've been attempting to do won't work if they feature the character everyone obviously dislikes (plus the family drama that comes with her).

No - the complaints aren't - the WRITING we are seeing now after complaints have been in play for some time are. Hmmmm no not my point at all - I don't know how we're missing each other. What I'm saying is that the way you phrased it makes it sound as though you are trying to present the Irving/Jenny marginalization as if it just "happened" in some kind of vacuum. Like the characters just wandered off the writer's scripts and the writers were like, "Oh no... Irving and Jenny just walked off the pages of our scripts! Whatever shall we do?!?! Oh, I know... we'll use Katrina/et al to fill in for them until they decide to come back onto the pages of our scripts that WE WRITE. Thank goodness we just happened to have those characters lying around - except the one we added." Like the writers didn't WRITE Irving and Jenny off into little black holes and then GAVE ALL of their screentime to Katrina/et al. Katrina et al didn't just happen to take up time that Irving and Jenny just gave up. The writers GAVE them that time at the expense of Jenny/Irving.

With the way they've been writing David as clueless, he'll do exactly as Victoria says and he will relegate Emily's concerns to that of a 9 year old child. It's going to be Ems trying to "prove" what Victoria did just to win the full support of her father. I hate this.