phoenics

I understand what you're saying - but my question is: If Katrina knew it was a demon baby and that she needed to kill it (and her spell wasn't even to kill it - just to send it back to hell - so she wasn't even going to do what she said), then WHY did she only mix up the potion AFTER she got demon psoriasis? I think the fact that she didn't immediately go to get rid of the baby before then illustrates that she fell for the okeydoke completely. The other thing I just noticed was that when she was talking to Henry in the beginning before she held the baby, she tells him she won't cooperate (or something like that). But in the previous episode, she clearly goes in and convinces Abraham (who tells Henry) that Katrina knows her place is with them and that she's chosen their side. So why is she pretending almost like she's still a "captive" in this episode? I think I smell a few rewrites - only I'm not sure which direction it's going (w.r.t. rewrites).

I think it's worth watching... I am rewatching now and I think there is a ton of nuance that I missed the first time around. And I know Hawley isn't popular - but man if Dollar Store Thor ain't growing on me. I like that he can be there and not "take up space" as long as they don't take away screen time from Irving and Jenny. Like someone else said - if he replaces Katrina on Team Witness I'm totally okay with that. The funny look between Ichabod and Hawley before the seance was hilarious (when they joined hands). Also - Irving says that Mama Mills' commotion gave him an opportunity to break out... but I agree it was suspicious. I'm so not here for a redemption storyline with Henry - especially when it feels like the only ones who get a shot at redemption will be those blood-tied to Ichabod/Katrina. Unfair - since I don't care about them. I'd rather have Andy saved and Irving saved than Henry of all people. Ratings are in too - same as last week (we will see if DVR bumps it up at all). I think the show is toast - not even this episode (which was the best of the season - although the premiere was amazing too) could save it... unless the writers show their hand quickly. I'm not sure what they can do to pull in more fans. I think people are fed up and angry. The focus on Katrina and CFD really tanked this show. I don't know whether to gloat with an "I told you so" or be ticked off because I loved this show so much.

In the episode - the sisters were willing to banish their mother before they figured out that it was the nurse.

Most of the Crane's losses can be laid at the Crane's doorstep (and they aren't losses actually, since they can still "have it all" - whereas Abbie's mom is DEAD. There is a huge difference). Also - I think you're missing a bit of the nuance in what I and many others have been saying - that the difference between the Cranes and the Mills side is that the Mills side takes the losses on the chin but still keeps the prize in mind - that of stopping the Apocalypse and saving the world. Team Crane? No - they're concerned with getting back together (even though their initial betrayal to be together in the first place CAUSED the Horseman of Death to come about). And then they're concerned with getting their son back (that neither of them ever even knew) and letting said son run rampant - seemingly not even caring that their son just took a man's soul wrongly. Worse, Ichabod used what Henry did to Joe Corbin as his justification for saving Henry. Say what now? Supremely, supremely selfish. Contrast that with Irving - who sacrificed his entire life to save his daughter - just like Mama Mills sacrificed everything to save her daughters... just like GRACE sacrificed everything to help Ichabod and Katrina's evil spawn. Frank lost his soul and Mama Mills and Grace lost their LIVES. You cannot even compare the two. And in this episode? Abbie and Jenny are prepared to sacrifice their Mama - to SAVE LIVES. They love their Mama, but they are focused on saving innocent lives - which means they would have banished her to stop her from killing innocent people. The Cranes aren't willing to do this - they tend to sacrifice EVERYONE ELSE to 1) be together or 2) save Henry. So, again - they haven't sacrificed anything - except other people - on their way to some twisted happily ever after. Selfish, selfish people. Katrina is ruining Ichabod for me - he's really unlikeable right now. Totes agree with you here, :)

Oooh! I like how you think! Gonna come back and say more but I gotta run!

Hahaha! Dayum! Abbie would so be dead, lol. cynic - I saw that promo too and it bothered me. If the show thinks shoving Katrina in there will woo fans they are wrong. And Reese - I completely agree with you and share your disappointment with Ichabod. I haven't liked him for about 3 eppies now. And even before that I was side eying him because of leaving Abbie in Purgatory. I need to see him brought low. And there is only one thing that will accomplish that. I don't think it will happen in the mid-season finale. But the writers better make it happen by the end of S3 and write better stories.

This is an excellent point. In the spoiler thread I mentioned that all of the sacrifice from Team Witness came from Abbie's side of the bond. And Ichabod's side of the bond produced nothing but horror (and is the source of the pain on Abbie's side). Ichabod/Katrina produced War and Death. War killed Grace. Death killed Corbin. War took Irving's soul against Irving's will. War afflicted Corbin's son against his will. Also the demonic forces concentrated much harder on Abbie's side: Andy, Abbie and Jenny's awful childhood. Mama Mills. It makes Katrina/Ichabod look supremely selfish. Abbie and her side is the only one to have truly sacrificed. Ichatrina just wants to be together and have their murdering son with them? And are allowing him to run rampant destroying lives? I wonder if the writers even realize this. I hope they do - Abbie needs to go off on both of them about her loss compared to theirs. And then I need to see Ichabod lose something he cares about. He needs to see that the apocalypse had major stakes. And no - losing Henry won't have that effect on him or drive story. Only losing Katrina due to both of their selfish actions in clinging to the past and sacrificing the whole world for what they want will suffice now. That will piss off Headless and make him a BAMF again and end the CFD. It cannot always be Abbie and the Mills side sacrificing and losing everything while the Cranes lose nothing.

I agree with you. I don't mind Hawley too much as long as Jenny and Irving aren't sidelined. And I agree that he does background better than Crane - who would kinda take over... lol. He did seem really upset that Abbie replaced him with Hawley... he was Crankabod this episode, lol. And Sickabod. Heh. This episode would make me feel like they'd gotten back on track - but I just don't trust the writers. This episode was by Wiseman and Iscove, right? They are S1 writers - they get it. It's the eppies written by the other writers that don't work... Come on show! Oh... crap. That did happen, didn't it. >.<

Two episodes that tanked the ratings. I don't even think "Mama" can pull them out of the nosedive they are in - a lot of fans have left and aren't coming back. And "she deserves her fair share of storytelling" --> nope. Not if ratings don't support it. And they don't. Honestly based on the ratings, she deserves to be killed off. I have no more patience for that character. The focus on her storyline and all of the contortions the writers have to send the other characters through to prop her up is maddening - and killing the show. As you said, her episodes are boring.

I am SOOO happy to see Irving out... I'm gonna have to go back to see Jenny's little smile at him... I hope after the fall finale, the CFD is over with and we can get on with Irving and the good stuff!

I think Abbie's joke about Ichabod being better once he sleeps was a nice and subtle jab at the "Katrina is sooooo wonderful" stuff from before - it was completely poo poo'd by Abbie's joke. I literally laughed out loud and was happy to see Crane's delusions dismissed as the claptrap they were. Especially given Katrina's failure later on... I also think Ichabod is protesting too much - Abbie wasn't even going there and he flipped all out. Iscove and Wiseman really understand these characters - they need to teach a clinic for the other writers.

I'm beginning to wonder if the show is trolling us - meaning - Katrina can't do ANYTHING! I mean - NOTHING! So the logical part of my brain says that the writers are deliberately doing this to make a point... that Katrina/Jeremy are the past and the longer Ichabod tries to hold onto that, the worse things get. Katrina is just so so useless... I feel like it HAS to be on purpose... OR The writers think using her as a plot device is enough. For her (few) fans it seems to be enough, but when your love for a character is less about her and more about keeping a couple apart, well, seeing her used as a plot device doesn't matter as her primary job is an Ichabbie-blocker.

I find it funny though how Jenny picked up a book and read a spell with success while Katrina was picking flowers. I wonder if Katrina really isn't long for this show - the show clearly plans on having the Mills militia hold it down from the witchy side.

Mama Mills says at the end that Moloch sent the demon nurse after her... In this episode right when she tells Lori she will obey her eyes turn demon black - plus the reason Lori ended up in the psych ward was because Moloch sent demons after her anyway (the scene with the car and monoxide poisoning)... This episode was the scariest all season. But still too much Katrina - it kinda ruined it for me - so the writers are still going forward with the whole CFD stuff still... Overall I enjoyed the episode - though I do agree with you - why was Crane sidelined? It kinda didn't make sense - unless Tom Mison really was sick and they just used it in the storyline? They didn't have Hawley continue his "crush" with Abbie really (not overtly) and there wasn't any tension with Jenny, so it almost makes me think Mison was supposed to feature more heavily but then he got sick? Or maybe he reached his quota for screen time? I think shows have contractual stuff sometimes with ensemble casts... Loved seeing so much Jenny/Irving and Abbie though... but didn't understand the lack of Crane unless Mison was really sick. I saw someone on tumblr refer to him as "Dollar Store Thor" and I laughed so hard I snorted. He does kinda look like Thor on the cheap, lol. ETA: With the Mills sisters being able to do magic (that WORKS) - the purpose for StruggleWitch is? ... o.0

Okay so I may have cried at the end with Abbie and Jenny. That is all for now.

I do agree with you about Irving still having the option to kill someone so they can take his place ... I do wonder how that is going to play out... We will see, I guess...

Has this interview with Nicole been posted yet? http://tvline.com/2014/11/17/sleepy-hollow-season-2-preview-video-nicole-beharie-abbie-mother/

Aww man! I like the abbiemillsdeservesbetter one...! Aaargh!

About Irving - someone else speculated that perhaps in the end, it will be Irving who is sitting down writing everything down - that won't work if he's a Horseman. I love the scenario of him being the one left at the end (Abbie and Ichabod get sucked up to heaven like in Being Human) - writing the story down and titling it "Sleepy Hollow". Plus, to me, it just makes him more collateral damage to Ichabod's poor decisions. And that's not fair. Irving doesn't deserve to end up a Horseman because Ichabod couldn't take out Henry - or wouldn't. Nope. Ichabod's bad decisions need to come down on him AND Katrina (who apparently thinks only her opinion matters). Since Katrina thinks that her thoughts about Henry are all that matters - she deserves to deal with the reality of that... and let Henry kill her. Give her and Ichabod a tiny bit of hope that Jeremy can be separated from Henry - maybe Henry fools them into thinking they can get Jeremy out of him and lures them into a trap and kills Katrina. Then Ichabod has to deal with the fact that his actions caused her death and finally deal with how their actions created 2 horsemen. Abraham blames Ichabod for Katrina's death - angry that his decision to try to "save his son" cost them Katrina. But the new horseman is somehow related to Abbie - perhaps someone she couldn't save? And that enthralls all of them in season 3... need to think more on that part... I need to write some fan fiction, lol.

Agreed. Riddley - can we switch your story so Katrina is killed instead? Then it neatly wraps up the CFD folly of "save our son" and it COSTS Ichabod something huge - his wife (and all of the idealization that goes with her). Bonus points if it sets Headless off and he loses his humanity (what's left of it) - maybe somehow her death can be partially blamed on Ichabod. So Headless is back to being a BAMF and Henry is as irredeemable as ever. Abbie ends up being proven right - with Ichabod finally accepting his role as a witness - though now he has to contend with others being held above him (Hawley, Jenny, Irving) due to his own actions in destroying Abbie's trust by constantly siding with Katrina. Plus - a new Horseman emerges. There has to be a MAJOR stakes here. No one will really feel it if Henry dies. No one cares about Henry except Katrina and Ichabod - and his death won't matter in the long run - especially since Katrina is still so boring - it would simply push Ichabod to try to save HER - not finally accept being a Witness. No - the only way out and the ONLY way to bring the show back to badassery is to have Henry kill Katrina - but somehow it can be partially blamed on Ichabod (from Headless' perspective). Headless is back to being on a rampage. Jeremy breaks with Henry right before or after Katrina is killed, but Headless kills Jeremy - leaving only evil Henry behind. So now we finally drop all of the CFD and Ichabod PAYS for his decision to put the world at risk for his son. He learns a hard lesson and finally accepts that his role is as a Witness.

I think the lack of mentioning Irving or Jenny makes the CFD even harder to take - it's like they aren't being considered at all - which goes back to terrible writing. The "save our son" mess gets hard to keep going when you have a direct victim of your son standing right there. That's like telling the murder victim's family that you want to save your son (who is the murderer) - and he's STILL killing. I don't think the writers thought this through. And if the Cranes end up being right and Henry is redeemed I will throw my television out the window - because it's literally horrible writing and so, so forced.

Yeah - that was a hot mess. I'll never forget when Brooke opened the door and got an eye-full of plastic surgery gone wrong, lol. Shame what Hunter did to herself - she was so pretty before! IF she dies - she'll die a saintly death... Even if she goes evil, she'll be redeemed in the end before death so Ichabod can uphold her as a saint and annoy us all. I just had another thought after seeing the "redemption" stuff Orlando mentioned (and I believe another poster touched on this elsewhere too) ... I think that another thing that bothers me about this storyline is the unfairness of it all. If you look at what Abbie and her family have sacrificed to this war, it's a lot: Grace Abbie's mother Jenny and her issues Abbie's horrible childhood (Jenny's too) Corbin Andy Irving and his family If you look at what Ichabod and Katrina have lost it's ... being together and having their son? But it's their being together that created the Horseman of Death. It's their being together that created the Horseman of War. Grace was killed by their son. And they want to talk about redemption? Um, NOPE. I wonder if the writers even thought about this or no? Because it feels like from a Witness perspective, the ONLY ones sacrificing come from Abbie's side of the witness bond. Ichabod is determined to have it all - even after being a major cause of half of the Apocalypse. Not fair.

I think people mean sidelining in showing Abbie as nearly asexual, less feminine and as a "strong" woman vs. Katrina, who needs to be protected as a perfect delicate flower worthy of the main man's love (Crane). I think the writers are trying to sidestep it with Hawley being interested in Abbie - but those "SBW" tropes are still problematic. The issue still remains that Abbie's voice is being muted in her scenes with Katrina/Ichabod. And that I find problematic - especially since the show seems to be putting her in the position of being the "strong one" who then doesn't ever get to have a voice. I'm hoping it's not for long - that we're headed for a major blow up where Abbie doesn't hold back on Ichabod or Katrina, but I'm not holding my breath. Worse, they are keeping Jenny/Irving out of the picture in order to push a contrived redemption storyline that would become idiotic-looking with Jenny/Irving standing there. The whole redemption angle falls completely apart with Jenny/Irving there. Can you imagine Katrina or Ichabod running their "but he's our son and we can save him" mess with Jenny and Irving going - "Do you see us standing here?" That's just really bad writing.

That is extremely interesting... I wonder which interview was given LAST? Because the first one has an earlier published date - the second one is published a day after the first one. I wonder if the first interview he tried to say what was in the 2nd interview, but they twisted it a bit? That quote of his is supremely interesting - it literally calls Sleepy Hollow a show about the unrequited love of Ichabbie (due to someone Ichabod just happens to be married to) - and apparently that's just about the 2nd season. Prior to Deliverance+Heartless I would have agreed - but I'm surprised OJ was allowed to spell it out like that. I think that interview happened very quickly after the ratings and abbie twitter thing and is likely damage control... I'm going to read the other article (the first one you posted) and then the 2nd and see what I think of that... If the show continues to press the angle OJ mentioned above - they are painting themselves into a corner. This is NOT Scandal - no one wants an affair.

This is what happens when a character merely becomes a fanservice vessel for a very small minority of fans. Those fans see themselves as Katrina - thus it doesn't matter what she does or how she lies or how the character is treated - even if it's like some warped heroine in a harlequin romance novel from 30 years ago - they are fine with it, because she's not supposed to be a real character. She's literally a fanservice vessel. Just like she is a plot vessel for the writers. Plus - when the only purpose fans have for the character is to keep Ichabbie apart, then they don't care what happens to her, what she does, how she lies, how little character development there is or how many sexist tropes the character inhabits. None of that matters as long as she does the job of keeping the hated couple apart (for them). It's all about making sure Ichabbie doesn't happen. I think that's the primary reason the writers decided not to kill Katrina off. They were afraid a majority of fans needed the Katrina-barrier-against-Ichabbie in order to feel comfortable watching the show. Turns out they were WRONG. This happened for decades on The Bold & The Beautiful with Brooke and Taylor. Taylor was kept a "saint" and never held accountable for her actions all to keep Bridge (Brooke and Ridge) apart. Most of her fans were simply Brooke-haters. That's why the show gained in ratings when they killed her off - the haters still stuck around to hate on Brooke and more Brooke/Bridge fans came BACK to the show because they hoped for better balance in the storytelling.