phoenics

I agree with this - although there were a couple of episodes where she didn't look perfect... but I definitely think the writers/showrunners are trying to amp up the sexy. I hope that Nicole didn't feel pressured to lose weight to fit a certain ideal though... but she is noticeably smaller this season - in the legs/hips for sure.

This entire post made my day. Thank you. You can do that, if you like. I'm not. Katia Winter gets exactly the ire she deserves - after that petty, petulant and un-professional tweet she sent making jabs at Ichabbie fans. Before that, I had no beef with her. Now? I cannot wait for them to kill her off.

While I'm not sure of the hair as proof of them trying to play up KW at NB's expense, I do need to point out in the Deliverance episode that the men walking in the hospital gawked at Katrina - and ignored Abbie. That rankled the mess out of me. I might say that it was a plot device to show Ichabod's reaction - but it felt contrived and out of place given that NB is stunning (and KW looked death warmed up in that scene). It just FELT like the writers were trying to knock everyone over the head with KATRINA IS THE HOT ONE - and I am SO not here for that. If they had done this from the Pilot - we wouldn't even be having this conversation because I wouldn't have made it past the pilot. I've just seen this kind of stuff too many times on tv shows - where they try to prop up a character by making another one look dull. Hopefully that's not happening here - but the scene I mentioned above makes me nervous. I'm going to try to stop thinking the worst - my blood pressure keeps spiking, lol.

Awww - *blushes*... Hair is almost a religion for us sistas.

LOL - I know it's much more than that, but for me you can tie about 80% of S2's issues and problems back to her... either in 1) giving her an expanded story (which sucks time from Jenny/Irving, 2) trying to make her equal in importance to Abbie, which is just wrong, 3) giving her more stakes with Henry (the foolish redemption storyline), 4) the "make her sexy" costume garbage (No, just no)... 5) turning the BAMF Headless Horseman into a simp ... 6) giving her idiotic and misogynistic story lines to expand the role which kills the show pace, as well as trying to copy Ichabbie moments (WTF?) ... 7) not killing her off in the first place and leaving the shady stuff unresolved, but continuing to try to convince the fans that she's both "good" and that Ichatrina is "epic love" ... 8) dumbing Crane down and making him an asshole so that she can have the foolish redemption storyline... and also 9) disrupting the chemistry between the two leads and the rest of the cast... I know some could argue that the Henry stuff has to do with John Noble, but I honestly think the issue started BEFORE him - I think he was brought onboard as the Crane son in an attempt to expand the entire Crane Family - but the source of the desire to expand the family was for Katia Winter's benefit (Goffman) ... and the show's detriment. I hate this show, lol. I really should just quit.

Because of

Katrina.

With the falling ratings due to her show, she shouldn't. I think in Succubus, Abbie's hair was done that way (pulled back) so they could do the direct parallel with the Succubus and Hawley... so we'd know the Succubus was mimicking Abbie. In Mama - I don't remember her hair as much - though it wasn't as awesome... I think the 3rd episode this season had the best Abbie hair... it was perfectly done...

I've seen show runners run a show into the ground due to them catering to their "muse" before - Goffman is just another one to add to the list. Worse - he wouldn't even blame himself if the show got canceled - he'd blame the fans.

That was me!! :) Though I'm sure someone else has mentioned it too... Katia Winter recently said in an interview that she was looking forward to playing Katrina reacting to present day stuff and I thought - wow - so you wanna be another Ichabod Crane? That just sucks all of the special right out of Ichabod... and it sucks a lot of the magic of the show right out with it. It turns into Days of our Cranes or As the Cranes Bore. I mean - just think of how awful that Bachelor scene was with both of them... horrid! Plus it ignores that the story isn't about Crane just reacting to the world - half of the equation is ABBIE (and the rest of Sleepy Hollow) reacting to HIM. Because Abbie represents US! When you throw Katrina in there - and Henry - and Abraham - well now Ichabod is just another dude from the past... and he's brought his whole posse with him! So now I have no sympathy for Crane anymore because now when he whines about present day, it just feels like he's nitpicking just to nitpick rather than really being a man out of time. That makes Crane unsympathetic. I think that Crane in the first season was more special because he was the only one. I mean - we had Headless, but he had no head and part of the fun with him was seeing the contrast and the utter SHOCK on people (from today) when they realized he had no head. But that was it. Everyone else from Ichabod's time was dead. He was alone in this strange new world - tasked with saving it (along with Abbie). What a huge burden. But then they tied EVERYONE to him - the horseman of death, the horseman of war and then they brought on Katrina... and spent this season showing us Abbie as the odd person out and surrounding her with his 18th century posse. No. No no no no no!! Now I finally understand what people mean when they say that Sleepy Hollow has gotten smaller - with the influx of so many characters from Ichabod's past in Sleepy Hollow and with them typically outnumbering Abbie's posse in episodes this season (her posse hasn't really been around) - Sleepy Hollow looks like it's full of 18th century folks running around. That's crazy... ETA: Does anyone watch Forever? It has this premise of a man who cannot die - and that alienates him from everyone. It's what makes him "special". The show has another person like that who is some kind of nemesis - but the nemesis existing doesn't take away from the specialness of the forever-dude... it enhances it because they aren't connected in anyway except for they both can live forever. One is good, the other evil - with the added fear that the forever dude could end up evil like his nemesis - the idea being that living forever drives you to become criminally insane. Sleepy Hollow shouldn't have connected SO many evil guys to Ichabod's past. I think Abraham would have been okay if they'd kept Katrina dead. But Henry was too much.

Mr. & Mrs. BAMF on the lam!!! I love it! Poor Irving though... I just wanna give him a huge hug. I need a Free Irving's Soul t-shirt.

First of all - are you in my head? Because I had a similar thought about KW after reading an interview where she said that she wanted to get into present day situations and have reactions to them. I remember thinking - you want to be just like Ichabod Crane? Then I realized that she just wanted screen time, lol. I do think she likely has an subconscious entitlement cropping up. In any other show where you're in the "primary romantic couple", you'd be the lead. Except Abbie is the lead - and in any other show SHE'd be the romantic lead. This goes back to my theory that the writers never should have kept Katrina alive at the end of the pilot. And then there is one scene right before the Abbie confrontation where she kind of barges right into the room when Ichabbie is having a discussion and I remember resenting it. And when I saw that comic cover with Katrina fore fronted before Abbie it made my blood boil - because it brought up issues from this episode.. having Katrina inserted into the group as an equal to Abbie - when she isn't. She's the wife of one of the Witnesses - but Irving and Jenny are as important to this as she is. I felt the fight between her and Abbie actually brought Abbie down a bit - because Katrina shouldn't get a vote in what the witnesses do. She isn't equal to them in this fight. She can be an ally if she could get down off of her high horse... but...

It wasn't like that last season - it was so much better. The magical MacGuffin stuff is really overused this season - it's bad, I agree.

Great question. I don't really ship Ichabbie right now (I have serious issues with Ichabod right now and am almost hate-shipping Abbie with anyone else in retaliation, lol) - but IF TPTB wanted to reel the fans back in, I don't think a rushed pairing would work. I think that they have to actually respect it. As it is, it feels like the fans they respect aren't even Ichatrina fans - but fans who simply DON'T WANT ICHABBIE. I feel like Katrina/Ichatrina is literally for those fans (though I do believe that there are legit fans of Ichatrina/Katrina who really do just like her/them and are frustrated with how it's written). I believe it's for those fans because the writers almost seem to be using the pairing as a way to stick it to the Ichabbie fans. I hate that. But back to my point - I think that if they want to reel Ichabbie fans back, they have to respect it. They cannot just shove them together and think that will work. Abbie should have serious reservations about Ichabod right now. He's a Class A A-Hole right now. And until the writers acknowledge that in some way shape or form, it won't work just shoving them together. Ichabod has to acknowledge his assholery. He has to PAY for his serious lack of judgment. He has to suffer an epic loss for putting the world in danger. I keep wondering - where is the heavenly input to all of this? God apparently created Witnesses to stop all of this - but we never see anything from Heaven course-correcting the Witnesses. The only supernatural stuff we've seen is from Team Evil. There has to be some kind of repercussion for Ichabod's behavior. Abbie is all about stopping the End of the World - while Ichabod constantly puts her at risk dealing with his CFD. That has to be addressed and Ichabod has to be brought low and humbled. As for Ichabbie - they do have amazing chemistry. But I'm just not feeling it right now - I'd feel like Abbie was getting a booby prize. But perhaps I could warm up to it. And as for shipping Ichatrina just to keep Ichabbie apart - I actually understand it. Here is a case in point. I was not an Olicity fan. In fact, I find Felicity to be a complete Mary Sue character - primarily for fan service. I actually hated Olicity and did not want it to become canon at all. I didn't ship Lauriver because of Olicity - I liked Lauriver before that - but I did NOT want Olicity. AT all. I hated the promos leading up to S3 all focused on Olicity. I hated the focus on EBR (who I still don't think is the best actress). I hated all of the hate directed at Katie Cassidy. I hated that the show hadn't already made her BC. But once they gave me Laurel this season working to become BC and her scenes with Wildcat (talk about chemistry), I felt better. And then - suddenly - I was fine with Olicity. Because I didn't see them taking something that belonged to Katie Cassidy and doing the full on bait and switch. I hate it when I see actresses get a lead role and then the writers bait and switch, shoving another actress in front of her. Just give that actress the opportunity to exit the show and find something else that works for her if you're going to replace her on her own show. That's probably my issue with Ichatrina - It feels like the writers are trying to bait and switch me and the constant efforts to try to "side kick" Abbie in her own story, making her "equal" to Katrina just bothers the hell out of me. But now? I actually like Olicity. EBR has grown on me a ton - and I feel the Olicity angst. It still feels a bit contrived to me as fan service - BUT - the last episode sold it for me. It sold Oliver's feelings for her and it sold hers for his, but it also gave her agency in rejecting anything less than Oliver coming to her to tell her his feelings, not Diggle (though I hated how they used him in the eppy like he was some kind of messenger bird). I felt for the hardcore Olicity shippers when Oliver saw the Atom Kiss. My point is - if the show is going to do Ichabbie - they can't rush it. It has to be a slow burn - but they have to respect it. No more swipes at fans. Respect the ship - but also support the ship! If Ichabbie is end game, then you have to drop some hints in the writing that you might go there. Not Easter Eggs that mean nothing to the show canon (and nothing to regular fans) - but actual moments that build up to an actual romance. Otherwise, just decide you aren't going to go there (Ichabbie) and give Abbie an EPIC love story that blows Ichatrina out of the water (which it would). I think one of the things that ticks me off about Goffman's "Easter Egg" comment is that when you drop those - it means NOTHING to show canon. Nothing. The show can go with it or without it - which means it has no bearing on the plot at all. It's just bait. Plus, for fans who "fear" Ichabbie - they don't even see it. It's playing Ichabbie fans on the side, while keeping the fans you really care about happy and "sure that Ichabbie won't happen". So - until they stop with the Easter Eggs and actually make the hints CANON, then I don't want Ichabbie - because that means it would only be rushed.

I think that if the show keeps pushing Katia Winter to the forefront and forcing her on fans, there will be another ratings drop. I worry about fans coming back after the winter finale actually. Lord I hope Fox forces them to shut that ish down! And yeah - I thought the same thing until some kind fans clued me in! I'm so used to it being the networks who screw with a show that I just assumed. But nope! Goffman! I remember that the writers wanted to keep Abbie in Purgatory longer (probably to push Ichatrina more on us) - but FOX put the kibosh on it. I actually hope FOX is paying attention to the unrest and preparing to fire Goffman - I lay all of our woes at his inept feet. Clearly they weren't onboard with his original plan for S2 - and they forced him to put Ichabbie back together faster - I really hope they are looking at the criticism and forcing Goffman to end the CFD and the Katrina-focus that is destroying the ratings.

Eh - I think he has one rule for characters he likes and another rule for Abbie, lol. ETA: I did spend about 30 minutes looking, but I just tried googling. Couldn't find it. I know it exists because when I read it I had a rage blackout! LOL. I'll come and post it here when I find it.

But here's the thing... what show EVER tries to have or sell a romance without ever chemistry testing the "romantic pair"? Katia and Tom never chem tested. Nicole and Tom DID. Tom wouldn't have gotten the part without his chemistry with Nicole. I think you are right that the show runners didn't expect Ichabbie to be so hot - clearly in response to that fear they left Katrina alive - thinking that Ichatrina would boost the show because they were afraid Ichabbie would not carry it. Even though they chemtested Tom and Nicole. And didn't chemtest Katia and Tom. Seriously - WHAT SHOW ever does that@?! I don't think they ever really planned to play up the Ichatrina romance in S1 - clearly they cannot write it very well at all. So now, we're seeing a textbook of silly harlequin tropes and sexist tropes all over the place - all in an effort to prop up Ichatrina... It makes me so angry because the show didn't need Ichatrina - or Katrina - and the show is suffering by trying to shoehorn her into things. She was never meant to be here this long. But Goffman. That's why the character is so poorly written - she wasn't originally conceived to be a fully fleshed character - and her characterization is so 3 centuries ago. With Ichabod it's charming (well when he's not being a jerk to Abbie). That's what makes him special. Throwing Katrina into it with him suddenly makes Ichabod less special - he's not as sympathetic with such a strong tie to his past. Ugh - I hate this season.

Yeesh - I'd have to search back through a lot... it was in an article waaaaaaay back - I want to say it was May? He was out doing a ton of promotion and he's quoted as saying fans wanted more Katrina. It might be in this thread... I'll look for it and see if I can find it.

An article with Goffman about how basically they use shipper bait, but never plan on answering legit fan questions... read: they don't care. This show is so done - it's gonna be a Katrina-fest until cancelation. Goffman: “I don’t know that necessarily we are changing story lines or even putting in dialogue, but we try to find little Easter eggs that they are going to pick up on, to reward people paying close attention, to give them something to talk about. As opposed to trying to necessarily address like, ‘When are we going to see more of Jenny?’ or ‘When are Abbie and Crane going to hook up?’ ” http://observer.com/2014/11/tv-writers-and-showrunners-increasingly-mute-the-fans/ I really cannot stand Goffman. He claims they don't listen to fans, but then claims that he gave Katrina more storyline because "fans" demanded it? He's so full of it.

Do you think this is because the writers only see Katrina as a plot device and not a fully realized character? Because that's where it seems to be coming from... a lot of the character whiplash and shadiness - which tends to happen when writers see a character as a plot device. As much as I complain about how Abbie as a character is treated (all of the racial/sexual tropes that the writers let happen to her), I think Katrina suffers from being used as a plot device. I think there is a reason for this though and it can be laid at the feet of the show premise. It's very hard to have a "wife"/true love character on a show that isn't part of the 2 leads on the show. I think a LOT of the issues with Katrina actually stem from trying to fit her into a show that she probably shouldn't have been on for so long. I think the writers made a mistake not killing her off in the pilot as originally planned or in the season finale earlier this year. So - since they didn't do that - and decided to expand the character more this year, the character is in a tough spot. One, she's the perpetual third wheel to Ichabbie and if she isn't and the writers try to elevate her, the fan backlash tanks ratings. Two, by trying to expand the character without really tying her to the epic shadiness from S1 and trying to pretend that all of that shady red herring stuff never happened, the writers are basically being dishonest with the fans about the character - which just creates resentment. When you couple that with the backgrounding of Jenny/Irving, well it's a recipe for disaster. Also - question: can anyone name ANY other show with a male lead and a female lead in a "partnership" kind of show where one of the leads is married and that marriage is attempted to be shown in a big way as "epic love"? Because I can't think of one... the only one that came close was Law and Order: SVU - but they never showed the marriage or wife much at all. At ALL. They focused on the partnership at all costs. Anyone know of one I missed?

Oooh shipper bait! Not. falling. for -- ooh look how cute Nicole looks! Well Neil Jackson can't stop saying how amazing she is and she's a badass witch in later episodes, so it looks like Katia will get what she wants and the rest of us get nothing but shipper bait. Not the show I signed up for.

I think this is because the writers deem Abbie only good enough (or compelling enough) for "a very special episode", whereas they deem the Cranes worthy of an entire long story arc (that is slowly killing the ratings). I really wish they had built up to this all season - I honestly think the writers made a huge mistake with not doing that - it's SO MUCH more compelling than the CFD and it ties so well with LAST season and all of the questions people have about Abbie and even the Witnesses as a whole. I think I'm still sore that this only touched on some of the themes from last season... Moloch wanting Abbie delivered to him... Grace and how she died... etc. I mean - it even ties into Henry - and it is much more compelling than coming at it from the Crane POV. And as I said - the whole "hunted" angle that was so strong in the first season with Jenny and Abbie... it's a shame the writers dropped that. Especially since they seem so intent on pushing the CFD STILL. I do wonder if .

This is a great point! I think this sums up a lot of my frustration this season too. I thought Mama did a great job in illustrating the urgency of the Apocalypse - by bringing back the "hunted" idea that seemed to haunt Abbie and Ichabod and especially Jenny during the first season. In this episode, clearly Mama Mills was tormented and literally hunted by demons because one of her daughters was a Witness. Remember last season when Moloch wanted Abbie delivered to him? Did we ever find out why, specifically? Did he just want her soul? Did he just want to separate the Witnesses and defeat them that way? It feels like the writers threw out that awesome sense of being "hunted" from the show and replaced it with CFD instead and the end result is that the sense of urgency from the show has been lost. The sense of horror and terror has been lost. Have you guys ever watched a horror movie and then spent the night being terrified that something from the movie was going to get you? Like you were just haunted by your thoughts and worried you'd be hunted by imaginary scary things? That's how it felt last season with Abbie and Moloch being after her. And now this season - Moloch doesn't seem to care about Abbie at all - and until Mama - you'd never think he even worried about Abbie much. Jenny WAS hunted by demons - she was even possessed by one... All of that was just thrown away this season and Mama was the first episode where I felt that sense of fear of being hunted coming back - but of course next week it's all back to CFD again. It's a shame, really.

Sorry - posted this before seeing HalcyonDays' post.

So apparently there is a new Sleepy Hollow comic out and the cover literally made me see red. Yet another comic cover that DOES NOT GET IT. The writers really think we're stupid don't they? I swear, it's almost like they're trying to write Abbie out. And we know they get story direction from the showrunners and writers - which means this mess was sanctioned by them. https://www.comixology.com/Sleepy-Hollow-2/digital-comic/164098 Katrina is LARGER than Abbie!??! Worse, the description LEADS with Katrina as though she's the main character and Abbie is just along for the ride. To be fair, the first comic did much the same thing. And people wonder why POC are so sensitive and protective of characters of color - it's because this kind of ish happens way too much. It's exhausting sometimes.