phoenics

I just realized another reason this episode was so horrible. Last season, we had a really great balance on the show. Ichabod was the sole good guy from the past dude... that made him "special". Abbie, Jenny and Irving were from this time - plus Corbin. And it WORKED. When Ichabod is able to stand out as the good guy from the past, with weirdness and all of that righteous indignation, the show just worked. Abbie would "get him" and no one else would and it just worked. Last night, it was flipped entirely. Abbie was the ONLY major player in this episode who was from our time. Irving and Reyes' .3 seconds of screen time don't count. The rest of the players were Abraham, Henry, Ichabod and Katrina. And it did NOT WORK! The magic of this show is Ichabbie and the tension that erupts because they are so different. When Ichabod exists in our time and is a "man out of time", it WORKS! When Abbie is the straight man to his funny man, it WORKS! But last night - it was too serious - because it shows Ichabod trying desperately to keep his past, plus that past (Katrina) pulling him to help the rest of their past (Henry). That dog just won't hunt. It's the same as if Superman could bring his whole planet to live here on earth with him. Suddenly, superman doesn't seem so special then, does he? It's the whole "orphan" aspect that makes it a powerful story. It's too bad the writers went the whole Katrina/Henry/CFD route - they missed something really special. Also, this season - the writers have reduced Ichabod to this "super-brilliant Mark Sue" who knows exactly the right historical tidbit to save the day, while at the SAME time, the writers have made him utterly stupid and unintelligent the moment Katrina is there. I know it's supposed to be romantic that he loses it around her - but that's only if you buy into the epic love - which most fans clearly (ratings, hello!) DON'T. The result? Ichabod is now unlikeable and fans are rooting for Jenny to take over as 2nd witness.

I wish I could ask Goffman to his face: "Hey, dude - did you cast Nicole as Abbie because you thought - hey - no one would ever want Abbie with my epic romantic male lead, so that way I can push Katia to the forefront?" Cuz I really wanna know. They claim they weren't casting with diversity in mind, and they cast Nicole because she was awesome - but I did hear that Katia was cast as Katrina FIRST. Nicole was second and Tom Mison got the part due to his chemistry with Nicole and his ability to rock the part. Everyone else who got a part on the show chemistry tested with everyone else - EXCEPT Katia. And it shows. It also feels really unfair - to see Katia not have to work as hard to get her part. She didn't have to pass the "chemistry tests" that the rest of the cast did, but is now gobbling up screen time from the other actors who actually seemed to "earn" it. Not a knock against Katia personally - just pointing out that the rest of the cast had a harder audition - whereas she was "Goffman-ed" in. I wonder if they chem-tested Matt? This season the show is clearly suffering from a sophomore slump as well as pretty bad chemistry among the cast - especially when you factor in that Irving and Jenny are sidelined. I must say - when Henry was just the sin-eater, he enhanced the show. Now as a villain and the whiny, bratty, 70 year old "son" of the Cranes, he's annoying, declawed and annoying. Headless used to be menacing and terrifying. Now he's whipped. Jenny never altered the show chemistry - she enhanced it. Irving enhanced it. That storyline with his daughter and ex-wife? That was really, really good and really, really scary! I cannot help but feel like the Henry as War and the Crane's son storyline is all to give Katrina more of a role on the show and it's destroying it. She destroys the chemistry of the show - completely destroys it. And someone else mentioned this: I actually miss the cops too. This whole show started around Abbie and Sheriff Corbin - two cops! And with Irving, that was still there. Half the time, Abby doesn't even feel like a cop - she feels isolated from the police, whereas last season she wasn't. This season, I think that's the other issue - no one feels grounded anymore. There is no deep connection to anything grounding for any of the characters. Ichabod was grounded last year by Abbie. Abbie was grounded by her police work and her connection to the police station and JENNY! She also had a connection to Irving. Another problem with sidelining Irving and Jenny is that it literally sets Abbie adrift and makes her seem disconnected from her own life. She has a life. She's from THIS century! This time! OMGosh - I think I just figured out what's so off this season besides all of the other nonsense. This season, the show is focusing really hard on the characters from the past: Henry (technically he's from the past), Katrina, Ichabod, Abraham. The only character we really know from the present right now is Abbie - since Irving and Jenny have been sidelined (and Luke is just gone). Andy is gone too. Thus the show feels out of place. Even the Ichabbie moments are starting to feel like shipper bait to me - put in (with no heart) as a matter of obligation, but the writers (especially last night) would probably love to scrap Ichabbie moments if they could. Too many characters from the past are being given too much airtime in the now - which makes Ichabod not look so special - and too few characters from the present are being showcased, which gives most viewers nothing to relate to. Whew. Rant over.

Dear God - one episode focused on Katrina was enough - you want to stretch it to two!?! I feel faint.

1. Egads - so the writers are torpedoing themselves in the foot? Let's say they didn't necessarily cast the show to be diverse, it just ended up that way. I wonder if they woke up one day and screamed, thinking the show was too "dark" and decided they better "fix it" before anyone noticed? Heh - I made myself laugh at the thought... although I can almost see that being true. I definitely think they caved to "Pro-Katrina" pressure and are now paying the price for it. 2. Your "Good." is EXACTLY what I said (in the same way) when I saw the ratings. And then I cheered. If this show is to be saved - the writers HAVE to see that they have messed up and that they need to fix it. If they don't and they persist in the stupid Katrina-files, then I will definitely tune out and watch this once great show go down in flames - gleefully. The only thing that will make me sad is Nicole Beharie and Orlando. Lyndie burned her bridges with me by "campaigning" for Katia/Katrina. I'm still salty about that.

Ha! Ratings dropped again! Maybe the showrunners will start listening to fans now?

I agree with the new names - I have hated that title of this thread since I came to this board. It almost felt like a slap in the face to the Abbie character. The "other witness". Really???!? I would love Abbie Mills: The Voice of Reason

I agree with you about the whole "fun" thing - this show seriously has become un-fun. Last night was just awful.

Like another poster said - I read your earlier posts and thought - okay HOPED - that this show would prove me wrong - but I am now firmly in the same camp as you. Honestly I don't want to watch anymore. I am such an idealistic fan that when I get a whiff of "white privilege" ruining my favorite show and Headwriters and showrunners not getting it - well, I've been here before. Both with shows without POC and shows with POC. This show makes me feel like the writers are giving me some kind of machiavellian choice. Either I accept Abbie being relegated to "The Help" (I cannot say enough how I HAAAAAATE this trope) - I mean - I DID NOT like Abbie being relegated to SLAVE WOMAN who watches over white woman as she gives birth. The parallel between her and her ancestor made me PHYSICALLY ILL. Like - we haven't come anywhere in the last 200+ years that Abbie is doing exactly what her ancestor did with Katrina - worse with Katrina/Crane so concerned about Henry, they have no regard for what he's done to others. So Abbie will probably end up dying for Ichabod/Katrina's poor decision making. Two Mills people dying for their family drama. NO! NOPE! *throws something hard at the wall* *cough* Back to what I was saying... Either I 1) accept Abbie as relegated to The Help Sidekick to the Great and Wonderful Cranes, and barely get to see any Irving or Jenny and I better just be glad I still have Nicole Beharie as lead actress IN NAME ONLY or 2) the writers will probably just completely get rid of Abbie, Irving AND Jenny to stick it to me as a fan and drill into my head that they really don't want me as a fan. So not here for this. I love Nicole Beharie - but if she doesn't WAKE THE BLEEP up, she's gonna find herself on the outside looking in on her own show. This is NOT a Shonda Rhimes production where we KNOW the lead WOC will have her entire life fleshed out for us to see - not running through scenes being The Help, SBW ("She's too busy for a man!"), asexual, Sassy Sidekick, Magical Negro and whatever other horrible, stereotypical and TIRED trope they can throw at us. I am so angry right now. I read this blog post when Carter was killed off of POI and the blogger chastised all of us women of color for thinking stuff would be different that time and helping POI's ratings when we should have known better. I had that blog post in the back of my mind for Sleepy Hollow. I knew better. And I still let myself get sucked in. Ugh. Sucker! I worry that even if a non-PoC writer/showrunner starts off with the right intentions, invariably their white privilege will get in the way and mess things up. Even this show, which has a POC writer added - and it's been a disaster. So done. So freaking done.

I shouldn't have watched the eppy. I barely watched as it is - but it was extremely disappointing. What stood out for me is that withe the heavy focus on Katrina/Ichy/Crane family drama, it was suddenly BLATANTLY apparent that the POC characters have been marginalized and turned into tokens. As a woman of color, this makes me angry - though I'm not surprised. Abbie is now officially nothing more than a Crane sidekick - looks like that NYT article actually had it right - we just didn't know it yet. Irving had what - .3 seconds of airtime? I find it extremely interesting that he didn't even livetweet during the episode. And Lyndie Greenwood is probably rethinking all of her blind "Katia is great!" nonsense while she pushed for more Katrina for her "friend and roommate". How's that working for you Lyndie? Katrina and Hawley have taken YOUR screentime. Yeah - be down for the "team" if you want - the writers will always have THEIR backs - not yours. This show is working so hard to pull in the white male demographic that they are alienating their core fanbase. I guess they don't really want it? Yes. I'm bitter. Clearly the show has been nailed by network interference and it's destroyed the magic of the show. For some reason, the suits think the Cranes carry this show and that's what people want. Yet - since S1, when the show focused heavily on CFD, the ratings went down! Get a damn clue, writers! And stop marginalizing the POC on this show.

I think that if you're bought into the idea that Emanda and Nolan are "bad", then what you say makes sense. I haven't bought into that idea, so I can't really agree with what you're selling here. I do agree that "revenge begets more revenge" and that it only causes a never-ending cycle of more revenge - and I supposed I could almost agree that Emily and Nolan are in this area of revenge - except in most cases when Emily/Nolan dished out revenge - they only set up a situation and allowed the person to do him/herself in. It's EXACTLY how Alexander Dumas wrote it in his book - I don't get the "Emanda is baaaaaad!" logic given how she only gives people enough rope to hang themselves - and they hang themselves on their own. Charlotte - though she irritates me to death - was 100% right when she told Victoria that Pascal was killed because of Conrad - not Emily. Emily merely set the players up to do what the players ALWAYS do. Revenge via entrapment. Works for me. I think some who have theorized that David may end up taking the fall for everything Emily has done (though why would he need to? Emily hasn't done anything to need David to take the rap for - what's Victoria going to do? Try to have her arrested?) - may have a point, but honestly David bores me. I want Emily to get her Revengey-mojo back. This contrite Emily is boring me to death - honestly I still don't understand the ire some have for her - and the comparisons to Victoria (trying to make Emily out to be the same or just as bad) don't jibe with me. Bring back smart Emily who always had a plan and who was always 2 steps ahead of everyone else.

A pillowcase filled with oranges. You win the internet today. I just snorted at work.

Exactly! I cannot stand this mess. I HAAAAAAATE dragged out storylines and stuff where the mess could be cleaned up if only they'd have the characters talk to one another. What I loved about Emily is that she was always one step ahead - you couldn't get the drop on her except in very rare occasions and it was AWESOME!!! But this Emily? NO! And poor Nolan! I would have outed Emily Thorne as fast as I could... and I would be full on raging at Emily for not just telling David the truth! This whole stupid plot would be overwith. And that's why this whole thing falls apart and proves that the writers suck. When your plot depends on two pivotal characters not talking and one of the characters KNOWS the other is alive - you're a VERY BAD WRITER. Emily's reasons for not telling David make no sense - and it's only going to piss fans off if she finally tries to tell him and he dies or something and they never get any kind of reunion - especially if Victoria gets away scot-free. I think this show has jumped the shark.

Agreed. I've always thought that Emily was on a hero's journey - but first she would teeter on the edge of becoming just like Victoria - but pull herself back and eventually find her redemption. I guess the show is going to use David for that - whatever... this show has become so unsatisfying and a terrible, terrible tease. Conrad getting his isn't enough. I loved Emily's revenge stories though - one thing I think the CoM movie got right was how it ended and the Count walked off into the sunset with everyone who was important to him. But the book was a classic and probably more like how it should be - even if I still think everyone who Emily went after deserved it.

I'm done. This is dragging out horribly and it's the worst kind of television. I hate writing like this. No wonder EVC just wants it to end. So do I. And Nolan being mistreated by David? Nope. Nope nope nope nope nopity nope!

Well that explains Ichabod's comment about his feelings for Katrina during the yoga scene. To paraphrase, he essentially said that Katrina's lies, etc. were making it hard for him to love or remember the love or something... I think that Katrina's lies/deceit/shadiness is making it hard for Ichabod to keep up the facade of Katrina in concept... he now has to deal with reality. Can he? And I'm not sure Katrina is done with the shadyness.

Well yes - I meant up until that part, lol! I remember being turned away from the tv at the time - and I had to look at the tv to make sure I wasn't witnessing an Ichabod fantasy, lol. But I think it's clear the writers MEANT to tease the fans with that.

I think they explained that away with something Biblical - the part about Moloch appearing and pulling Henry out of the ground... ack - now I need to go back and look because that kinda doesn't make sense why he's stuck in purgatory... not when other demons seem to be able to walk around in the real world (sand man, right?)... I'm actually looking forward to Moloch coming into the real world - if only because it will force the Witnesses to up their game and it will raise the stakes. With Moloch on the show (if he comes on the show in human form), then might we finally see the Witnesses developing powers? Might we finally see them up their game? This has to be leading up to something!!! I'm not here for Katrina's latest damsel in distress thing though - just stop with that writers! Hopefully it will be overwith soon and then hopefully we will have a big bad to think about then. There is a pic going around though - a spoiler pic from ep 7 that shows Katrina with Headless and Henry - and she's in civilian clothes basically (which suggests that she is talking to them AFTER she's free and back with Ichabod)... so why is she talking to them? That doesn't make much sense... Based on some of the Sleepy Hollow comments on FB (when some fans question whether Katrina is on the up and up) that suggest that she might not be - I don't know if that's real or if they are jerking the fans around like they apparently did last season (when they tried to use Katrina as a "big bad" red herring).

I do agree with you - except on Katrina - though I do agree that one of the writers seems to think she's more interesting than she is - or maybe he took her on as a "project". But I still think the networks have been in this for some time and perhaps are behind why this writer seems to be intent on pushing Katrina on us fans. I really like the scenario you suggested - I've always thought that the witnesses DO have some kind of powers that we just haven't gotten to see yet. In the Bible, they certainly have some sort of power - so this wouldn't be out of the norm at all. I really want to see them use some power for once - maybe it has some kind of side effect that makes it something they cannot do all the time? I don't know if I want to see all of the main 4 end up with powers - that would be a bit too much. I just want the storyline to MOVE. It's literally stagnant - we haven't progressed to anything that pushes the story or reveals anything new except that Katrina is shady and "accidentally" threw someone off a cliff. Like I said - it's sad when I WANT Moloch to be born via Katrina (although I hate that she's been turned into that trope - the regular damsel in distress ones were bad enough), just because War and Death are no longer compelling villains to me anymore. I don't fear them at all. Headless used to be terrifying - and he seemed unbeatable - the best you could do was fight him till dawn and let light drive him away. You couldn't kill him - and even the lost year Abbie and Crane's use of arrows and consecrated rounds didn't stop him. And War? All we see is Henry trying to do psychological war - and with the teenage temper tantrums - it just makes him look pathetic. Again - the ONLY storyline that seems to be interesting with him is the one with Irving and they aren't pushing enough of that. I guess you could count the story with the crushed bones, etc.. as moving the story - but I guess I feel let down that the "story" is Katrina giving birth to Moloch. Whoopee. Yeah - that was worth it. Not. It's sad when I'm looking forward to a big bad being born just because it will move the story forward. Though - I have a feeling it won't be that easy for Moloch.

I think we've been getting network interference from the beginning - I think that was the reasoning behind why Katrina was not killed off last season (or in the pilot). I almost think the way Katrina is being written is a giant F-U to the network for forcing the writers to keep a character they had always planned to kill off. It sucks for Katia though. I hate power struggles like this. But in any case, I think that the increased focus on Crane family drama is dragging the show down and I think the sidelining of Jenny and Irving is hurting the show as well. I feel resentful of Hawley when I see him because it feels like Jenny is being sidelined to give him a story - and I am not sure he's even pulling in the demo that they seem to want (males) - but he may be hurting the demo they have (women). Another issue I have - Henry. Making him look like a teenage rebellious whiny brat is NOT helping. It's just making him look pathetic and like you could easily defeat him by grounding him. He's not scary. At all. The mind games were SO much more compelling when he wasn't whining about his parents every other minute. Even Moloch isn't terrifying anymore. The ONLY truly terrifying thing seems to be Irving's story and it's the part the show is focusing on the LEAST. Headless? No longer scary. War? A whiny brat. Moloch? Not scary at all. Not anymore. If he had a big bad then that might be scary, but him alone? Not scared. The fact that I actually want Katrina to have "Moloch" in the flesh just so we can have a big, scary, evil bad guy who is completely evil with NO chances of redemption illustrates just how much the show has failed with War and Death.

Yeah and for us it's just boring tv. I think that's my whole issue with it. It's plot driven drivel masquerading as character driven storytelling - but we know it's plot driven because it just doesn't make sense or track. Ichabod's inane comment equating Joe to Henry aside (and that was a really inane and stupid comparison to make - I hope the writers don't think it makes sense), it is so BORING watching the Cranes try to redeem Henry. Besides the fact that they are woefully outmatched - I just don't get what Ichabod can possibly say to Henry - he didn't even know he was alive. Henry's anger at Ichabod makes NO SENSE whatsoever - given that he knows that Ichabod wasn't alive and didn't even KNOW Henry existed - Henry was born AFTER Crane 'died'. Henry's anger with Katrina I get - she was pretty stupid to leave him with Grace - who couldn't possibly have cared for him well. And let's not even get into the unreality of a black family in those times taking care of a white child - I just cannot imagine folks being "okay" with that - unless they were all supposed to still be in Sanctuary? But even still... foolishness. Plus - once Henry took out the witches - I don't even see how he can really blame Katrina - she didn't do that to him and she was trapped away and unable to help him anyhow... why be mad at her? It's reasoning like this that drives me up the wall - because it feels forced for the sake of plot. And it just makes the Crane stuff just feel so forced and just not fun. It feels very "un-Sleepy Hollow-ish" and I resent that. That's also how I feel about Katrina - if I'm to believe the show runners comment about her that describe her as a blocker for Ichabbie, then it's insulting that they created such a paper thin character for that purpose - as though the fact that she is some kind of Ichabbie foil is enough to carry her and make her "important". Nope. Unless they never really intended for us to warm to her? Or they assumed that looks, breathy whispers, and a ring would be enough to convince us of some epic love? Again. Nope. Not when you have characters like Abbie and Jenny. That's like giving us top shelf liquor for 55 minutes and then snatching that away to replace it with a watered down drink with a ton of ice. Um, nope.

So apparently Katia Winter on twitter is baiting Ichabbie shippers with a tweet meant to suggest that Katrina is being offed. We already know that she isn't - so I find this tweet to be confusing - does Katia not know that many of us online are spoiled? https://twitter.com/katia_winter/status/527147272984092672 Anyone want to take a guess at what she's hoping to accomplish? Trolling? *shrugs*

Replay the scene again - but don't look - just listen. You'll feel the sexytime vibe all over the place, lol. I did.

I love Orlando Jones - he really is us, lol. The show seems to have dropped quite a few storylines to - inexplicably - focus on Crane Family Drama. I think that is to the show's detriment. I totally enjoyed last night's episode - up until the last minute. Yet. another. save. Katrina. storyline - I'm so tired of those... just so tired. I feel the show is suffering because the writers have been trying to shoehorn Katrina into the story ever since they decided NOT to kill her off last year and it's dragging the show way down. You can't even compare Katrina to Abbie and Jenny - the Mills sisters make Katrina look even more like a harlequinn romance novel heroine - the type who was completely helpless, useless and nothing but a plot device for man pain. If they play this story straight I will be so irritated - they better have something interesting up their sleeve - or else it's just a bust. I'm just done with the character. Glad I looked away at the spider bit - they terrify me. Apparently it crawled into her mouth... I thought it was just gonna bite her... Thanks for the heads up on that.

Well - it's more about Ichabod not going after Henry guns blazing due to his "hesitation" with Henry - trying to save him. But if you count the coin eppy - 2 folks died. And if you count Ichabod/Katrina wavering in an upcoming eppy about Henry and trying to keep Abbie from taking him out, you might speculate that Irving might lose his soul for good.

That's giving the woman who was in Purgatory with Moloch for 200+ years (and couldn't deliver a scrap of intel about Moloch other than what happened BEFORE she got there) a LOT of credit.