phoenics

And yet another comic cover that DOES NOT GET IT. The writers really think we're stupid don't they? https://www.comixology.com/Sleepy-Hollow-2/digital-comic/164098 Katrina is LARGER than Abbie!??! That should NEVER HAPPEN EVER ON ANYTHING to do with Sleepy Hollow. And people wonder why POC are so sensitive and protective of characters of color - it's because this kind of ish happens way too much. It's exhausting sometimes.

I saw this last night and thought that he's probably an Angel - and someone Abbie looks up to? Or he could be a love interest - although how on Earth could Abbie possibly be involved with an angel? The other idea is that he's another Leo like from Charmed... a white-lighter like character... I looked him up - he's ... hot. Very, VERY good looking. Ichabod who? Please let him keep his hair short though - no more wigs... Here is the problem the show could face if they decide to go for a romance with this guy and Abbie and he has chemistry with Abbie that is remotely like her chemistry with Ichabod - Ichatrina will absolutely PALE in comparison - It already pales in comparison to Ichabbie - but if Abrion (heh) has chemistry legs at all - the show would be smarter to go for a triange with Orion/Abbie/Ichabod - if that time ever came... It's far more compelling than anything else I've seen... I can't get over how hot he is. I do think this means Matt Barr isn't long for this show... too bad - I wouldn't have minded a triangle with him, Jenny and Irving... but the show is crowded enough as it is... I'm sorry to see him end up axed when it really should be Katrina instead.

Actually I think that analogy can be a powerful indicator of equivalence, or just used to prove a point. I think the problem is when someone makes a false equivalency - which is what your example of a housewife was.

I think - for me - that Suspension of Disbelief requires me to actively suspend my belief. And prior to this year, I didn't care about all of the "Ichabroke" memes I saw on tumblr and other places. I just loved the show (and Ichabod) and I gladly suspended my belief. But this season? Ichabod is barely tolerable - and even the show's attempts to do one of his moments have started to fall flat for me - thus my willingness to suspend my belief has waned. Wherease before, I wouldn't notice certain things, well now they are glaring. My main issue is that with the show possibly ignoring how douchey Ichabod has been, it's almost like they are saying his behavior is okay - when clearly it's not. So if they never have Abbie literally go off on him (if any time was the time to go Angry Black Woman on anyone, now is the time). I do wonder if something happens with Ichabod, Abbie and Katrina that sets Abbie off and causes a rift between the Witnesses in the winter finale... As long as the rift doesn't last and they deal with the issues, then I'm fine with that - and as long as it's ICHABOD who is contrite, apologetic and that he CHANGES his behavior, then I'm fine with that... otherwise... nope. YES! Exactly! I'm actually upset that they made him "visible"... he freaked me out all last season and I remember having to sleep with the lights on and being afraid of my shadow after that neck-snapping thing... plus the whole "moving so fast" thing was horribly scary too - I'm upset they stopped doing that... it was very effective.

I'm rather sad that S2 has colored my opinion so poorly of Ichabod. I loved him last season. Though last season I couldn't watch most of the season (work was killing me so I couldn't watch real time) - I had to catch up a lot of times on my DVR so I didn't have time to think about it much. I do remember the map thing bothered me but Tom sold that scene with Abbie in the church so well that I was able to look past it and hope for more. That part where he and Katrina were saying the chant to leave and for the last part of it he turns and gives this searing look at Abby - man. That was ... Whew. But this season the way he treats Abbie grates. And I was never really one to be upset that Abbie was paying his way (Reyes), until he and Katrina started throwing their weight around. Abbie herself said Katrina was condescending. And Ichabod has this nasty habit of yelling at Abbie when he doesn't get his way. The way he told Abbie to protect Katrina rankled me so much. And that "vote" felt so unfair to me. I'm not sure the writers understand how jerky they've made Ichabod. During the Succubus eppy I actually hated that he tagged along to the crime scene with Abbie and I'm sad that the mess with Katrina and Henry has made me dislike him do much. Plus I'm concerned the writers don't think he's in any way in the wrong so he will never apologize. And I'm worried they will redeem Henry, justifying all of Ivhabod's actions and that really makes me upset. Ichabod may be that dude I liked in S1 but he's not acting like him. And he's breaking oaths he made to Abbie left and right. All while living off of her. That's a huge reason I reacted with relief that Hawley spiked his soup. Crane had just snapped on Abbie and for me it was either spiked soup or someone knocking his bleep out, lol.

I didn't think they would kill them off mid-season - IF that happens it would be a season finale... but I'm losing hope that they will actually kill Katrina or Henry off. And actually - Henry I'm okay with as long as they stop with the redemption mess - either that or just make him evil, but separate Jeremy from him and then kill off Jeremy along with Katrina. For some reason I don't see that happening...

Wow - and I thought a 1.5 rating was bad - this is going to send it even further into the toilet.

Oh - wait - so Abbie and Ichabod are married now? Nope - not married - he's still married to Katrina... who also isn't working... yet somehow both of them are living off of Abbie... Humph... does Ichabod still think it's 1753 or something back when they had folks who worked for them for free? The only work Ichabod has been doing is in Witnessing - and lately he's been doing less of that and more of the whining, sitting and watching tv with Katrina, or whining some more. And in Mama, he was clearly too sick to help them, so in that case - he needed to stay home and get some rest. I'm more than glad Hawley slipped him something in his soup.

Ichabroke works?

I was thinking about this earlier - what I was trying to figure out was whether or not Abraham told Ichabod that he chose it afterwards when Ichabod had captured him? When he was speaking through John Cho?

I think that had the Cranes made their argument as eloquently as you've stated here, they might have been able to sway us (the audience) to their side. As it is, we have Crane ordering Abbie around and Katrina stating that only her opinion matters. They come off as selfish, self righteous and only caring about Henry because he's their "blood", while not caring about anyone else. That's what has aired. Maybe - maybe - the writers thought of this as you do, but that's not what they wrote. Because of their attitude and the way they've treated Abbie, I don't want Henry to be redeemed. I want the CFD to be over. Forever. I want Crane to pay a heavy price for putting Henry/Katrina above the world - because otherwise the message is that all of the suffering he put Abbie and everyone else through (and all the people who died while he let Henry just do whatever instead of focusing on his Witness duties) was for the chance that Henry might be able to help them defeat Moloch. I think that's a lot to ask of the audience - to support the Cranes in this - when they are being so ugly to everyone else and changing the rules when it suits them. Katrina especially has been guilty of this. When Abbie tells her that this is distracting them from their mission, Katrina responds that her opinion is the only one that matters. But when it was Mary who was "distracting" Ichabod from being a Witness (and actually I believe then-engaged-to-Abraham-Katrina meant it was distracting Ichabod from HER) - Mary suspiciously found herself flying off a cliff after tripping over a "root". It paints an ugly picture for fans to accept - that the only thing that really matters to the Cranes are - the Cranes. Everyone else is collateral damage. Or, at the very least, it paints Katrina that way. And it paints Ichabod into the jerk corner for going along with her so readily. I also doubt that Henry will retain all of his powers if he is freed from the Horseman. I think that if he makes the choice of redemption, he will leave the Horseman to be filled by someone else, and lose much of his power - including Sin Eating and half of the magic he has. I think what might be useful is his info about Moloch. But - I want scary horsemen back. Henry and Abraham? Not scary anymore. Neither is Moloch. I want better stakes. If Ichabod+Katrina just get what they want after all of this, then that just says that their selfishness, self righteousness and total disregard for anyone other than themselves was justified. I just can't with that. It means that no matter how many lives are lost - Abbie is supposed to just go along with it because "they were right" before. I will be so furious if that happens.

I don't think they understand what we've been waiting for, lol.

Well - but Hawley was still there, so...?

I'm also trying to remember where either Crane has said that saving Henry is the way to stop the Apocalypse. Can someone point me to where they've floated that as an actual strategy? Because I don't think they've said that. At all. All they have ever said is that they want to save Henry. When honestly, I think IF this was a real plan to avert the Apocalypse, then Abraham was probably a better mark. It bothers me though that the Cranes seem so focused on that redemption for Henry, but Abraham (who is a Horseman largely due to THEIR betrayal) isn't worthy? That just makes them seem even more selfish. They aren't trying to save Henry because it will stop the Apocalypse - they're trying to save Henry because they want their son back. This wouldn't be so bad if Ichabod wasn't a Witness - but he is. It also wouldn't be bad if Henry wasn't out there killing folks and snatching souls - but he is. They keep putting their wants and desires above everyone else and that just really pisses me off. I have no idea. I had a thought that he'd be Conquest - since the child appears to have some sort of "anti-christ" power right now, but I have no clue...

Perhaps it's different than giving it to him as a child, but it's definitely still not the same as giving someone drugs so that they kill themselves. I thought it was funny and others apparently did too - not sure this is a hill I want to die on though - so we'll just agree taht we saw this differently and leave it at that. You didn't think it was funny? Cool. I did. That's also cool. No - we were watching the same show - we just didn't see it the same way. Or, better yet, I think we might be talking about different places in the episode. I was referring to Ichabod's reaction when he saw Abbie outside with Hawley after she bandaged him up. You suggested that in the last episode, Ichabod and Hawley had "bro'd up", but then in this episode they were back to being not bro's, so I offered that perhaps it was because Crane realized Abbie might return his affections after coming upon the two of them. But after thinking about it further, it could also be because Ichabod was cross that Abbie called Hawley for help, while sidelining him. I think that's probably a large part of it - although Ichabod seemed slightly cross the minute Hawley even showed up... but that might still be because he surmised Abbie called him, lol.

I was thinking the exact same thing. I loved this episode - that ending was so chilling.

Um - well one was to get the sick person to kill him/herself. The other was to lure a sick man to get some sleep. It's no different than when my grandma gave me a hot toddy when I was sick as a child. So, yeah - it was funny to me... Hilarious actually. I think Hawley and Crane will go back and forth a while - and I think last week's male bonding kinda ended for Crane the moment he realized Abbie might be into Hawley. I do agree to a point - the thing I like about Hawley is that IF they keep Irving/Jenny in the picture and not sidelined then Hawley kinda just fades to the background in most cases. I liked him in this episode. I prefer him to Katrina - so if the writers think they have to off someone, I'd rather it be her and not Hawley. I don't think it's because your point didn't hinge on numbers (mine did and I got the same response). We clearly won't be seeing eye to eye on this with some viewers. Even using hard numbers to prove the point and illustrating the difference between loss you had no choice in vs. loss you partially created for yourself (as you and I both did).

I do agree that she has a chance to create her own family - if she can get past her tendency to shut everyone out... I think she does that to protect herself and due to what happened to her mother - and how her mother taught her to trust no one (because demons). It looks like she really internalized that, whilst Jenny less so... hence why Abbie was prone to lie about seeing Moloch and Jenny wasn't. For Abbie - that was how you survive... Jenny hadn't internalized it back then, though she seems far more guarded now... though not nearly as guarded as Abbie. Nick doesn't have a chance with Abbie, lol. She's going to be way too closed off.

I feel like such a pest for belaboring this point - but Ichabod could have very well died in the war just as a soldier. The only reason Ichabod was killed when he was was due to his relationship with Katrina and that being the betrayal that drove Abraham to become the Horseman of War. In fact, in the espy where The Witnesses captured Headless, he tells Ichabod that he specifically CAME for Ichabod on the battlefield to END HIM. Because Ichabod/Katrina betrayed him. So - the fact that Ichabod missed out on Henry's life (also due to Katrina's duplicity), can be laid at his feet. That's been part of my point this whole time. Not one thing that Abbie has endured can be laid at her feet (except lying as a child - but she was a child). Mama Mills didn't do anything to deserve getting tormented. Neither did Irving. Neither did Joe Corbin. Or Corbin. The only one I can point to is Andy - but at least he tried to break free. Henry? Ichabod/Katrina's woes all seem connected to really poor decisions they've made in the past. Abbie/Jenny/Corbin/Irving/Joe/Mama Mills/Grace Mills were nailed due to the Apocalypse. I don't understand how anyone can try to make those things even. The Mills' side has clearly gotten the shaft. Especially when you think that the Cranes still have a chance to "have their cake and eat it to" (regardless of who they put in danger to get it). It doesn't mean that it's not "hard" for the Cranes - but sheesh - at least they still have a chance. Corbin/Mama/Grace are all dead and Joe Corbin would have been if it weren't for The Witnesses. And Irving might be screwed too - meanwhile, The Cranes are still trying to "save their son" at everyone else's expense. Maybe we will have to just agree to disagree - but it still bothers me, because ... mathematics. The Mills' casualties vastly outnumber the Crane ones - and it's simply a fact that the Mills' side (with the exception of Andy) did nothing to cause their own pain. They were targeted by the forces of evil. Ichabod/Katrina's pain appears to be partly of their own making. I just cannot sympathize with them equally with Abbie's side. And mathematically I don't see how anyone else can either. But I'm willing to just drop it from my side - I think I've laid my thoughts out pretty clear by this point, lol and I feel like a pest for repeating myself. Maybe - but redrawing that map was a mistake and I've never really felt like he paid for that. Abbie did. Same thing this season. It won't help if he just "realizes his mistake" if he doesn't pay some extremely high stake for it. If only folks from Abbie's side (Irving) pay for this, then that's not helping and it will make me HATE Ichabod. Ichabod needs to be humbled and brought low - the only way for that to happen is to kill Katrina and get him to stop putting everyone in danger for his (and his wife's) selfishness - for them putting themselves over his duty as a Witness. At this point I cannot accept anything less. The nurse was a ghost-demon, right? That part confused me a little.... especially when her eyes turned black... ? I guess it felt like you were only taking one point of my post and not the entire context of what I was saying. Abbie also lost her father too (he left or something), but I didn't include him because it didn't fit with my point. I think many would choose Ichabod - only because he still has a chance to regain his family - which was part of my point. Abbie's situation is more final - and even then she still has her eyes on the prize... Ichabod just seems selfish to me.

I think if they had shown her mixing the potion BEFORE she got demon psoriasis that would have served the character better. That it wasn't shown that way leaves it up to interpretation that she fell for the okeydoke. I also think that she might have known it was a demon baby but maybe she thought she could separate the demon from the baby and keep the baby? She's got unresolved maternal issues all over her - and maybe that's a clue as to how Jeremy might be saved from Henry. But I'm not interested in this unless Jeremy goes on to a better place (dies) as well as Katrina herself.

Thanks for the correction! We will have to keep an eye on Damian Kindler - he wrote a very good episode...

Check the media thread - I think a recent interview by Nicole Beharie might suggest that Abbie's discontent is far from over on that score.

I must have missed where Ichabod's family died due to any of this - didn't they just die of old age AFTER Ichabod died? Or - maybe you mean to reference Mary - who was killed under suspicious circumstances - possibly at Katrina's hands even though she claims it was an accident and she "tripped on a root"? When you consider that Katrina's magic seems tied to plants and nature ... hmmm... Thanks so much for making me think of that. Even more shade to throw Katrina/Ichabod's way. But let's get back on track, shall we? Abbie's mom was killed by Moloch. Ichabod's mom died of apparently natural causes - as did his dad. Everyone else Ichabod knew died a long time ago - they were supposed to. It's not normal to be 250+ years old - of course everyone they knew was dead. But that's part of being a Witness - for Ichabod (I honestly don't believe Katrina should have survived - she should have been long dead). Abbie seems to take her losses in stride and keep her eyes focused. Ichabod and Katrina can't seem to focus on anyone but themselves and they've lost the least of everyone else involved. The point - which was fairly clear - is that Abbie's lost her whole family and her side of friends have all been impacted through no fault of their own by this whole thing. Whereas Ichabod+Katrina haven't lost anything except each other (and there's a chance they'll regain that TRU WUV!) and Henry (and they are trying to save him at the risk of everyone else!). The differences couldn't be more crystal clear. Ichabod and Katrina haven't faced the same stakes as Abbie and her side - but I hope the writers are leading to them evening those stakes - and killing off Katrina at Henry's hands. That would humble Ichabod considerably; send Headless on the warpath, and finally end the CFD by having an completely unrepentant Henry. I'll allow Jeremy to be separated from Henry right before Katrina is offed by him, but that's about all I can spare, lol. Kill the witch.

We did - but he has no form in this world yet. I think Pestilence/Conquest has to have a human body to exist in this world - I think. I think like with War and Death - I think that Conquest and Famine need a human host to exist on this plane. Now - if Conquest is equivalent to the Anti-Christ - then I wonder if fast growing Moloch will be that?

fanfiction.net has a lot of fanfic and there isn't a huge Ichatrina element there - Ichabbie fanfic and general fanfic vastly outnumber Ichatrina on that site.