phoenics

LMBO! "Divorcing wife who is a witch" <--- I rolled with laughter.

I'd rather see a slow burn than a hookup. And I think if the show plays it right it could be compelling - as long as it isn't the main focus of the show - witnessing still has to be that focus. Sometimes I wish US TV planned things out more like UK TV... they tend to know how long a show will go and so they plan each season arc meticulously - they know from the start what their endgame is - not so with US TV which seems to fly by the seat of its pants a lot more.

I'm not sure you read my post. I was extremely careful to point out that I meant a tv show DRAMA - which is in a completely different league than comedies - which have their own sets of tropes - but the barriers have kinda been broken there. And it absolutely matters whether they are lead characters or not. It ABSOLUTELY matters! But my question is - for the couples (2 in 40+ years - whoopee) you mentioned - did we see the build up of the romance from start to finish? Was it presented in a romanticized fashion with sweeping music and all of the bells and whistles that white OTP couplings get? Nope? Then that's not even close to my point. Again I submit - Sleepy Hollow isn't the show to play out the "keep the m/f apart!" thing - for reasons I already stated. I couldn't agree more. When you have something like a bond like the Witness bond where you might get to have this cosmic connection - why NOT explore that in all of its facets? Not having that turn romantic at some point feels like such a cheat. And a cop out.

The world is always in danger - and if Ichabod can have romance during all of that, then it's only fair that Abbie get some love too. Though I really don't want it to be Nick... if they do plan on giving Abbie an engaging love story, then I'd rather they give her one that doesn't involve a man who has been with her sister. That doesn't read as realistic to me and it would seem OOC for Abbie to do that to Jenny with all they've gone through. Seeing strife based on that makes me upset.

You know - I totally get it that some people don't see Ichabbie and don't want it. That's fine. But - race actually does matter here. It's LONG been a very tired, stereotypical and typical trope that if a black woman is involved in a tv drama and in any way close to a white male - she's never considered as a potential love interest. Ever. If she has a lovelife, it's shown offscreen - or the character is treated as though her personal life doesn't exist - the character only seems to have any importance if it impacts another white character. Thus - the concept of being tired of them pairing the male/female leads together? Well - yeah we've seen that ad nauseum, but the ONLY time we've ever seen a black female character actually shown having a full life on a tv drama is on a Shonda Rhimes produced show. And that's just been in the last 2 years. That's it. As a woman of color - I'm tired of that. I'm tired of expecting that the black female characters will get the short end of the stick. It's borderline insulting to see the Abbie character not able to explore romance - with the lead or anyone else - and her reduced by some fans into this "independent woman who doesn't need or have time for a man" <--- that is SUCH a negative and dangerous stereotype. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I get the overall frustration with pairing up the male/female leads of a show - but given the long and frankly racist history of dealing with black or woc characters on tv dramas and their personal and romantic lives being pretty much erased (unless Shonda Rhimes is involved), then might I humbly suggest that maybe - since Sleepy Hollow has such a diverse cast - MAYBE Sleepy Hollow isn't the right show to go down the "keep the leads apart and only show the romantic life and times of the white characters and leave the black woman character nearly asexual?" It's not the right show to resolve THAT trope (male/female leads always hooking up) because in order to resolve that trope, you fall into several other damaging and negative tropes for the WOC on the show. Aren't there countless other shows where we can explore having two male/female leads who never get together? Why does it have to be THIS SHOW? Intersectionality matters. I don't want to have to fret and worry that a show will shaft WOC characters repeatedly because Shonda Rhimes isn't involved, lol. JMHO.

I haven't heard them say - lately - that there are no plans to couple them. They did finally say that Ichatrina was a blocker to Ichabbie and that it wouldn't happen while Crane was married. That doesn't mean that there are no plans to put them together. It just means that it won't happen if/while Crane is married.

I did not get this at all. Crane was the opposite of BLASE... In fact when Crane yelled this out - he honestly sounded destroyed and so, so utterly helpless and panicked. Especially since he couldn't do anything - for him - a person drowned was a death sentence. There was nothing you could do... He looked like he was about to run off weeping, wailing and gnashing his teeth... I didn't take his "She's drowned!" as a "there's nothing you can do" - but more as a verbalizstion of what to him was an unrecoverable situation... His helplessness and panic was so utterly palpable - it felt to me like one of the most powerful parts of the episode... When he screamed "SHE'S DROWNED!!" and his voice went up an octave into some kind of wail - man... I just felt so sad for him... this strange mixture of pity and "AWWWWWW!!!!"... I though TM was great - he's "Please please please please..." - he had NO IDEA what Hawley was doing - it almost looked like magic to him and he looked like he could scarcely hope that Abbie could be saved. I got no inclination that he was giving up - more like he was ready to fall over Abbie's body sobbing, lol. The one TM move that really got me was when Abbie finally started coughing up water and breathing in air, he sort of started toward her like he was about to grab her to him, but stopped himself short. Tom Mison killed his scenes, imo. I still think Katrina helped her over that cliff... but even if she didn't, she certainly kept it a secret for her own ends. It proves she knew Ichabod was a witness well before he did. Which throws her whole relationship into question - did she seek him out because he was a witness? Was there some kind of prophecy that she knew of and she approached him only for that? Why wasn't she honest with him? And did she do that letter not only to keep him tethered to the witness thing (if that was his destiny nothing would thwart it), but to keep him with HER? Ichabod didn't even know she had feelings for him until the day Abraham gave her that necklace...

You must warn us before you post such an amazingly poignant post! This line here: "Now? Everything is uncertain and then he sees Abbie, who is part of the present, who represents everything that is true in his life right now." That line right there... just kicked me in the feels... so... hard... I'm going to go cry in the corner now. That's been the problem with this character from day one. They were originally going to kill her in the pilot and then changed it... I have my suspicions why - but at any rate, Katrina ended up being nothing more than a plot device and an exposition fairy. Now - the writers have admitted that she's an obstacle to Ichabbie. Which is what I expected all along anyway. So - my thing with Katrina is that she literally was a vessel for the writers to push whatever plot they had - a way to engage Crane and set up some story. She was never really a story unto herself and she still isn't. Even this Hellfire Shard and Vessel stuff takes away her agency and makes her a plot device still. It's why I never bought into Ichatrina - well, that and the fact that their love is toxic and created 2 horsemen of the apocalypse. But I think the writers may have finally decided to simply go down the shady path with Katrina - until her usefulness runs out and they kill her off.

I rewound the cliff scene over and over again and just before Mary went over that cliff, you see Katrina's hands on Mary's shoulders... perfectly primed to toss her off the cliff. Katrina didn't just move out of Mary's way and Mary fell. Katrina DID lay hands on Mary at some point before she went over the cliff. I doubt we will ever know - but Katrina is soooooo massively shady. My mouth dropped to the floor when Mary did that Celie finger point at Killertrina.

Okay I've recovered enough for one comment. Katrina is really blaming Abraham/Henry for Ichabod's faith being shaken? Um - witch, please! YOU did that all by yourself! Ugh - bless her sociopathic little heart.

Oh my giddy heart I got it to work!! That is the absolute BEST thing EVER!!! *runs screaming in glee from the thread*

That episode overwhelmed me... I feel like I need some time to process all of it. Just... wow.

Wait - did I just get punk'd? I just searched for this and couldn't find that on Waze. I was all excited too.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that it was an adlib from Nicole.

I will be right there with you. I think I'm bothered that he hasn't tried to contact Nolan to at least inquire about his daughter - whom he sort of left in Nolan's care. I really don't like it when writers pen stories that are only complicated and complex because certain characters don't talk to each other. Plots that depend on a "misunderstanding" or stupid barriers that aren't really barriers irritate me.

Welllllll except that Daniel found out that his family set David Clarke up and then became complicit and a full partner in the ensuing coverup. That's why Emily continued with her plan in the first or second season. She thought Daniel might do the right thing, but he chose siding with his family and covering up with them... So - David isn't innocent in this. At all. He even dragged Margeaux into it. Now - Emily did use Daniel and Charlotte to get "into" the family to enact her revenge, but honestly I don't feel all that bad about them at all. After Daniel did what he did, he deserved what he got. And Charlotte was already a hot mess anyway and I just don't care what happens to her, lol. Sorry... *shrugs*

Thank you! I think the reason why we loved Conrad was because he was bad, but he ADMITTED to it and didn't try to pass the blame buck back onto David. He may have tried to do everything in his power to escape being caught - but it wasn't like he ever tried to play the victim like Victoria does with anyone and everyone. She's NEVER at fault - it's NEVER her fault - she's ALWAYS the victim. Charlotte is much the same - she can just die for all I care - I honestly cannot stand her and seeing Emily have to grovel to her makes me spit nails. If this show doesn't end with Emily, David, Jack and Nolan (love him) walking off into the sunset together, fully happy and fully revengified, I'm gonna be so upset. Charlotte can only come with if she grows up. But hopefully she dies. I know that's mean - but her only importance is that she's David's daughter and Emily's half sister. Without that, I'd happily see her die - she's so useless as a character. Also with Daniel - what is his purpose on the show now? It doesn't feel like he's connected at all to Emily or anything we really care about... what gives?

LOL - I think "I can't with you..." is just like "Bless your heart...". The way my friends and I use it, at least. It's either - "I can't with you right now" because you're irritated, or "I can't with you" because you're charmed and amused.

Hahahaaa! Girl - get AppleTV and then order it off of iTunes - instant access!! But I so feel you - I have been berating a colleague for the last 3 weeks to get and watch this show! And I just tried to explain it to a friend, but couldn't - because it's nuts! I started saying what the show was about and had to clamp a hand over my mouth and exclaim "Just watch it!" because I sounded so ridiculous. And I wanna be Abbie and Jenny's long lost sister. A girl can dream, right? Please, please let me voice all the stuff that Abbie and Jenny only say with looks here and there! During that scene with Ichabod where he tries to press Abbie about Katrina, I would have blurted out, "Cause yo shady wife caused Abbie to be trapped in purgatory cause she's always hiding ish! So excuuuuuuuuse her if she doesn't trust that your wife will be down for the cause or betray us all in the name of her crazy son!" Then when Ichabod picks his mouth up off the ground to retort, I'd continue with "And another thing! I still haven't forgiven you for drawing that stupid map to begin with! You're just as shady as yo wife! And don't get me started on Jenny getting locked up all on another "Save Katrina" mission. Say 'Save Katrina' one mo time!" Whew. That felt good.

In our current day and time, I think this would be true - but back then, a betrothal was tantamount to marriage. Sure - she didn't want to marry him, but she did basically secure herself a new fiance. Back then, the discussion she had with Ichabod would certainly be considered adultery since she was already betrothed at the time. And her declaring her love for Ichabod was definitely unethical. In our time - today - it wouldn't be seen as quite as bad - but back then, Katrina was definitely shady for that whole exchange... plus... when did she "fall" for Crane? They had a total of 2 scenes together - for the express purpose of driving the story for Crane and showing how he defected. It definitely wasn't enough to sell them as having an "EPIC LOVE". I don't know if she was trying to do anything shady there - although she's been shady about pretty much everything - that's what happens when you're nothing more than a plot device and not a real 3D character. BUT I have NEVER bought into this great and EPIC LOVE of Ichatrina. I just haven't. There were basically 2 scenes (basic ones at that) showing them together before she fell into the EPIC LOVE - and I felt nothing. Plus, I rewatched S1 and when you contrast his first hug/kiss with Katrina in Purgatory with his truly epic hug with Abbie in Purgatory - there is simply no contest. He didn't even rush in to hug/kiss Katrina when he and Abbie came to get her out. And that searing look he gave Abbie while he and Katrina were reciting the incantation to open the door out of Purgatory? Don't even get me started on the "remember our bond" hug. If the writers are trying to sell Ichatrina as an epic love story - they are doing a sucky job of it. When the supposedly platonic Ichabbie dynamic makes Ichatrina pale in comparision simply by the two characters Ichabod and Abbie being in the same room with one another - you've got a huge problem. Or not, if you're smart and play to THAT instead of some failed EPIC LOVE story that never caught hold. I heard they chem-tested Nicole/Tom extensively - Tom wouldn't have even gotten the part had he not had massive chemistry with Nicole. For some reason I don't think they chem-tested Katia. Why? Because they didn't even plan to keep her alive in the Pilot! And now we're seeing the results of that. The writers should have stuck with the original plan to kill the character in the pilot. Sleepy Hollow would be the better show for it.

Well so far, he's been a bro interest for Ichabod, lol. The only thing I didn't like about the last episode was Jenny's absence. I hope they don't do the whole Jenny/Nick/Abbie triangle - that will make me sick to my stomach. If Ichabbie is never going to happen - then I do want Abbie to have a real, bonafide romance - but not like this! Ugh! I really don't see Abbie doing that - but I NEED the show to give Abbie a real love interest (if Ichabbie is never to be - hell, even if it is). Enough of the black women on shows not produced by Shonda Rhimes being portrayed as strong, independent women with no love life (or if they do have one, it's all offscreen). Enough.

I've been attempting to figure this out as well. I know that Nichole has (or had) some trepidation about fan events - especially when she had to go alone. I remember there was a fan event and she was going without Tom Mison and she was concerned the fan response to her wasn't going to be good - or fans would be disappointed. She was pleasantly suprised at the overwhelming fanlove for her apparently. I've also noticed that she seems very protective of the show storylines - she isn't the one to spill the beans - ever. She lets others do the talking... I wonder if some of the more "rabid" responses to her being cast hasn't made her a bit gunshy. She also got a lot of backlash over her now defunct relationship with Michael Fassbender (I have no idea why) - some of the comments directed towards her during the show's run from some crazy fans has probably made her a bit mute at times. Sometimes it's best to keep quiet rather than risk say something fans will twist around. I remember an interview with her and Katia - and Katia was trying her best to kind of take over the interview - so much so that the interviewer had to direct her questions directly to Nicole. There was one moment when Katia said too much and Nicole had to kind of redirect to try to deflect a bit. I wonder if Nicole ever said too much in an interview and got taken to task for it by the writers? But I do need her to assert herself as the female lead of this show - because another actress (*cough*Katia*cough*) certainly seems to be tooting her own horn as much as she possibly can lately - including saying that "Ichabbie will probably never happen" - which she cannot possibly know. I do think it's telling that NIcole tends to make her interviews all about the show and not necessarily Abbie, but Katia is all about dissing Ichabbie and promoting Ichatrina/Katrina. I suppose that makes sense - she's honestly worried for her job. I just need her to stay in her lane.

I agree - he was using the parking break to do this - I remember seeing something similar in the movie The Bodyguard, when Portman (I think that was his name) was teaching the limo driver kid how to drive the limo in an escape... Having said that - I do wonder where we are heading. I don't want Irving pulled over to the dark side. And Henry actually is boring me a bit. I know he's up to something, but he feels less menacing than before - largely because I think the big shock with him is overwith... plus, the scenes with Moloch make him look pathetic... and worse, the idea of redeeming him just to give Katrina a storyline bothers me. I think it's enough to have Ichabod wavering a bit with him - but Katrina too? Ugh. So not here for that - or for her. She's made two villains who should be supremely interesting boring! Abraham's Headless Horseman now looks as threatening as a church mouse. And Henry just seems less menacing over all. The whole "Cranes family drama" is honestly dragging the show down. I think it worked well with Ichabod having a conflict - but the thought of Katrina (who already caused Abbie to be trapped in purgatory due to her shadyness) potentially leaving Abbie exposed and vulnerable because she wants to "save war" just bothers me. I don't see her or Crane trying to "save death", and they're more directly responsible for his foolishness than Henry. I guess I'm just not buying the love story of Ichatrina. At all. And so far the only thing epic about Ichatrina has been Katrina's EPIC shady-ness. I think the ultimate test of her as a character is simple: would the storylines today still be possible without her? I think the answer is categorically yes. There were plenty of other ways to drive story without her. The clash between Ichabod and Headless/Death would STILL be there. The weeping lady conflict would STILL be there. They could have found another way to illustrate Abby being left in Purgatory - the character is just a plot device, exposition fairy and a MacGuffin... something to strive towards, not a real character - that's why fans haven't warmed up to her (well, most fans). I wish the writers had stuck to their guns about killing her off in the pilot. So far - the only bright spots for me are the storyline with Iriving/Henry (there, Henry looks terrifying), Ichabbie (of course), and any scene with Jenny. Nick's "Aww Damn!" made me laugh outloud and I rewound it multiple times because if I was in his shoes, I probably would have said the same thing in the same exact tone of voice. I was very relieved not to see Katrina. Overall I loved this episode - and next week looks really good. How much mayhem and chaos can one coupling (Ichatrina) create? Sheesh.

As soon as I saw David telling the FBI what "happened" I realized he got himself arrested on purpose. What I don't know is whether he did all that to: 1. Get himself freed and exonerated 2. Has some other long con planned My concern though is that Victoria knows he killed Conrad and can basically blow his alibi and all of that. She knows he's not being completely truthful. I wish Ems knew this - because then she wouldn't be concerned about showing herself to David - since he killed Conrad I'm not sure he'd be all that pressed by what Ems did... I need him to find out what Victoria did to Amanda/Ems as a child.

I really - REALLY hope that is what David is doing. I need him to know/understand that Victoria is not who she claims and I need Nolan to set him straight. I need David to find out just what has happened - from someone he knows he can trust. But I cannot tolerate a full season of poor Emily trying to get into her father's good graces while Victoria twists everything. OMGosh I cannot handle that - that will turn me off so fast. Seeing Victoria "win" in such a disgusting way infuriates me. I don't understand the support for her - nor the anger at Emily/Amanda for going after her. That woman sent David's only daughter - a CHILD - into a mental institution and then manipulated the doctor into literally DESTROYING her. Everyone who could have helped Amanda, Victoria cruelly and diabolically prevented it from happening. To protect herself. Selfish, selfish witch. For that - Victoria should be flayed alive. I need to see her DEAD. This act she's putting on with David and trying to present herself as Conrad's victim is pure BS. The show established quite well that Victoria went along with everything to save her own skin and then compounded what her husband did by doing what she did to David's own daughter - because Amanda KNEW the truth. I'm not interested in the show twisting that or retconning that away. Emily is TOTALLY and completely justified in her revenge. Charlotte - I hate her - she acts like Emily knew about her all along - but she didn't know about that until way into it. I'm not interested in them trying to redeem Victoria in any way. Victoria was behind the hospital making Emily sterile! Just sick. Victoria blaming Emily for paying her back for the evil she perpetuated on her just proves that Victoria is a sociopath. I don't understand the idea that I've read in places where some people call Emily a sociopath. No. Emily is someone who got broken by Victoria and Conrad and thus I am behind anything and everything she does to take them both down. Even Conrad respected what she did - he KNOWS she deserved it. This storyline - with David in the middle - with the show seemingly trying to make Victoria somehow equal to Emily - NO. Victoria destroyed a child. Emily hasn't done anything nearly as horrible. Yes, some people have been hurt due to her plans - but she herself NEVER did those things herself and has often shown that she cares about people. If making someone face their actions is bad - then oh well. I love Madeline Stowe - but the writers are making a huge mistake if they think trying to make Victoria out to be Emily's victim will fly with most fans. It's almost as if they are trying to make Emily's revenge trivial by giving Victoria some kind of fake "validation" that HER revenge is real. Victoria just sent a man to kill his own daughter. She deserves to die. And die painfully. Seeing her play happy families with David makes my stomach turn. Egads I hate her! Whew. That was a rant, lol.