ILoveReading

Sam did know because Death told him. He had time to call off the spell. Dean killing death had nothing to do with the darkness being released. Most times they're in a place where its necessary because they're the ones who caused it in the first place. Unfortunately, it looks like we (general we) are headed down that rabbit hole again with the Winchesters wanting to rescue Mary.

I think the script cover pages of Various Villains and Breakdown were mixed up

Ironically, I liked both of Perez's episodes this year.

I tend to subscribe to Occam's razor. I think its Cas but the writing isn't consistent from one episode to the next.

My point isn't about letting Dean off the hook its that neither cares about body autonomy when something they want is on the line. We did see that the guilt was eating Dean alive. (Again not excusing his actions, just saying that Dean lying wasn't something that Dean was taking lightly).

IMO, no one on this show really has the moral highground when it comes to disrespecting someone's autonomy Examples- Bobby and Sam* not telling Dean that "Sam" was back. Both decided that living outside the hunting life was the best thing for him. Shouldn't that have been Dean's decision?** This is far and away the most cruel thing anyone has ever done to him. Dean wasn't allowed to be angry or upset at this. Bobby's response- 'Id do it again because its closest to happyness he'd seen a hunter get. Again was Dean happy? Bobby completely disregared what Dean would have wanted for his own reason. How could anyone ever think that family man Dean Winchester could be happy believing Sam was being tortured for eternity. But then we know Bobby doesn't see Dean as a person anyway. (Not to mention it brought back some very unpleasant memories of a similar story line ruining All My Children for me, but off topc). Sam using his powers to remove demons. I know the show likes to pretend exorcisms don't exist but this was an option he could have used. He tells Ruby- 'I almost had it that time." He's practicing his powers using people as guinea pigs. IMO, this is the equivalent of doing experimental medical procedures on comatose patients. They're incapable of consenting. Sam shoving the demon back into that person by reverse exorcism and then stabbing her. She (i think it was a she) would have lived had Sam not done that. Sam lying about who he was to both Jess and Amelia. They could have been in danger and had no idea. These were long term relationships. They both deserved to know that being with Sam presented a risk. Sam drinking nurse Cindy's blood. She was clearly alive and could have been saved by Sam's powers or an exorcism. She should have been offered a choice about whether she wanted to sacrifice herself for Sam's quest. Sam just giving the page to Rowena (not technically removing autonomy but shows Sam is still willing to lie and has no guilt about doing so and go behind Dean's back) Sam using the book of the damned to remove the Mark when he knew full well that Dean had said he didn't want the mark removed that way. \ Sam sleeping with the body Ruby possessed. *I'm including Sam in this because when we first got spoilers that no one was going to tell Dean about Sam being back, it seemed Sam was Sam, and the majority of Sam fans I knew at that time all defended and praised Sam at that time, saying he was being so brave and sacrificing for Dean. (Yes, Ive read posts that used those exact words. So it seem Sam fans believe that leaving Dean handing is something Sam would do). **I know staying with Lisa and Ben was technically Dean's choice by the strictest definition of the word, but since Dean didn't have all the information he really wasn't given the option of making an informed choice. He went to them because Sam asked him too, so if Dean knew Sam was back he probably would never have gone to them in the first place.

I only watched episode 7 once so I could be wrong. But I thought it was Ketch since it was revealed at the end to be working with Asmodeus.

I thought Asmodeus's hunter ally turned out to be Ketch, since he was the hunter who was responsible for killing all the witches. .

If you read some old posts in this thread you'll see that someone coin the term Valium!Dean to describe Dabb's version of the character. I think it first perfectly.

My Observations I wanted to like this because of Danneel. But didn't because the episode was as dull as watching paint dry. Way to much talking and not enough action. I liked Sister Jo character but she's wasted being saddled with Lucifer. The obvious "plot twist" of sister Jo being an angel. Am I supposed to care becasue Lucifer is cold and hungry? Because I don't. Die Lucifer Die. Since Sam, Dean and Cas were under the impression that Lucifer was weak, why didn't Dean stab him immediately. Its one of the few times, I didn't see Dean. I saw Jensen waiting for someone to yell action. Same thing with Ketch. Why wasn't a bullet put into him immediately? Someone should have told Jared to remember to act scared of Lucifer. That's why that whole,Lucifer has a scary face didn't work for me. It seems Sam is as over Lucifer as I am. Like with Jensen, I saw Jared standing around wondering what he was supposed to do? Other the Jared and Jensen are signed as leads what was the purpose of them being in the episode? They had no outcome on the plot of it what so ever. Sam and (especially) Dean continue to be extras this season. (Not meant as Bitch/Jerk, simply and observation). There are too many plots and characters now. We don't need two more. They should change the opening credits, instead of script by (insert name here), it should read, Copy and pasted from the original script by (insert name here). The whole Lucifer thing just felt copy and pasted from when Cas was human. Sister Jo feels like a copy and paste of Bella and Anna. There was no need to bring Gabriel back. His story is done. It feels like pure fan service. Death really has become a punchline on his show. Please bring back Crowley. Mark P for Mark S is not a fair trade. (Did Lucifer Die). So while Michael, Lucifer and Gabriel are having a bitchfest about who daddy loved more what are Sam and Dean going to be doing? Once again despite both Sam and Dean being guilty its only Dean whose made to apologize. This is why I don't find Sam particularly empathetic no matter what the show tries to sell. Amodeus has more ham and cheese than an entire Deli. . When they wrote that exposition scene of Cas summing up the season spoken outloud, how was it possible that the writers didn't shake their heads and say 'is this season as stupid as it sounds?" A couple of things I did like. I would like to see more of sister Jo. I want Dean to wear that green plaid shirt more often. No mopey Sam. Hopefully now that they have a plan that plot point is done. Jensen is that green plaid was the best part of the episode. I like Ketch. I'm probably the only one. LOL. Since he's still alive more scenes with Dean please Danneel shined, and I want to see more of Sister Jo. (Just not with Lucifer. Did Lucifer Die) Dean still looks so tired and done. Give my boy a hug. Props to Jensen for trying to maintain consistency. Did I mention Dean's green plaid shirt. I don't think I mentioned Dean's green plaid shirt.

I agree with this, becasue a lot of Dean's plans to bring Sam back, carry a high risk that he won't make it back, or will end up dead himself. Selling his soul, he was given a year, so he'd be leaving Sam. Or trying to get Sam's soul back from death or the stunt in the episode that shall not be named. Dean has never said he can't live without Sam. He can't live with Sam dead. I think there is a difference. I always thought that since it was drilled into his head from a young age that he's responsible for Sam's well being. Protect Sam is his prime directive. IMO, I always felt it was far more about Dean not being able to live with the fact that he failed Sam. When Dean sold he soul, Sam died right in front of him, the trials, Dean felt Sam was dying because he was supposed to do them so Sam was dying because he did them in Dean's place. So while I do think Dean wants Sam with him, its not his primary motivation.

I guess I'm the only one that likes Ketch. LOL As for who would show run if Dabb left, I find Berens worse then Dabb. I haven't fully enjoyed any of his episodes since Executioners's song. I don't think any of the current team is strong enough to be show runner. Yockey, IMO, has the most talent but his eps are often full of plot holes so big you can drive a truck through them.

I just saw that Mark Pellegrino will be on the panel at Paley fest, so I'm guessing were stuck with him til the end of the show.

Looks like Ketch is back tonight.

I'd say that its just an inconsistency in the writing. One week Dean hold a gun to a teenagers head because he's so desperate to get to their mom, the next week he's totally "oh well, its been two days, we live in monster land. Mom Who?" I think Cas's little smirk was just because he was pleased with himself. He was trying to bait Lucifer and it was working.

IMO, actions speak louder then works, so even if Sam told Dean at some point he understood he was struggling the following events occurred: Sam flat out said that if Jack went bad it would be Dean's fault. The therapist didn't bother to ask Dean why he was hostile toward Jack. Dean's issues were not adressed or even touched upon in the grief ep. It was about Sam and Jack. Sam keep saying that Dean had to help. He told him he couldn't leave the bunker because he had to stay. Sam tried to guilt trip him by implying that if Dean felt Jack was bad then he must feel Sam was bad. (This is something Jared himself talked about at comic con). Dean was made to call himself a dick. When Dean finally was pushed to his limit and laid it down in no uncertain terms why he couldn't be around Jack, Sam's response was to push Jack on Dean even harder. Sam only told Dean "lets get out of here, just us." Only after he got his own way with Jack. IMO, the show doesn't match the tell. I see nothing on screen that actually supported or gave sympathy to Dean's position. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Dean didn't think his mom was trapped until a couple of weeks ago. He believed she was dead, and the writing supported the notion that losing Cas was what effected Dean the most. When Miriam read Dean's mind, the first thought on his mind was 'bring Cas back." Not, mom or Crowley, but Cas. Dean only found out that Mary was alive and trapped a couple weeks ago. He saw she was being tortured which may have triggered flashbacks to his own hell. Dean became so weighted down with guilt that he help a gun to the head of a traumatized teenager. IMO, this isn't stuff you just handwave, with 'well, he's probably feeling it." I didn't like the scene with Kaia, but it happened on screen. If the writers are going to go there they need to follow up on it. I get Dean's trying to be there for Sam, but his his own issues seemed to be far from resolved, and should be given the focus.

I dont think that is The Empty Cas. I think its just regular Cas. The Empty Keeper just wanted to sleep, so there is no motivation for him to go to Earth in place of Cas.

Dean hasn't really been all that concerned with Mary or Jack. He didn't give her a second thought after he was ready to permanently accept they lived in Jurassic Park after barely two days, and there was nothing to indicate these couple of episodes that Mary has been on his mind at all. Jensen is trying but the writing isn't helping. Unfornately, the writers don't seem to be able to deal with more than one issue at a time, which is why all we're getting is Sam moping. Last season, Dean was able to tell something was off with Cas just from one brief conversion. I agree with @catrox14 and call BS

This is my first thought too. Dean who supposedly is having trouble putting one foot in front of the other because he lost Cas, becomes so casual about him being out of touch for so long, and he doesn't realize something's wrong? He did it last year. I appreciate Jensen trying to show that Dean is still at the end and one more thing is going to send him over. It's too bad the writing isn't supporting this.

Poor Dean. He just looks so tired and done with it all.

I once again have to give Jensen so many props for his non-verbals in this one. The difference between Dean in the first half the ep and the 2nd was night and day. Once Dean had the spell on him, all his cares just seemed to melt away. He was light, and happy, and had a spring in his step. Jensen looks like he had fun with it. I will give props to Yockey because under the spell I felt like I was laughting with Dean rather than at him. That was all becasue Dean got roofied trying to help someone. He was so excited to be bringing the book to Jamie and Jennie. You could also see the minute the spell was lifted all the weight of the world descended back onto his shoulders. In that last scene, the little touch of icing his leg was good to see(that poor knee. While I would like to see Cas heal it, Im sure it will be fine by the start of the next episode). You could also tell Dean's trying to keep a brave face for Sam, while still struggling with his own burdens and that he doesn't really believe what he's saying.

In one of the interviews for the Beer Company they asked Danneel about that. She kind of implied that Sister Jo gets the upper hand. These writers love the copy and paste function this wouldn't surprise me at all.

Sam's been purified about 3 different times. Plus, the writers do what they want regardless if it makes sense or follows previous canon. It wouldn't put it past them to say something like only Michael's true vessel can use his spear. But it could be Jack.

I'm expecting being a demon will disqualify Dean from being the Most Holy Man. I don't see Dabb giving that kind of importance to Dean. When Dabb says The Winchesters he usually means just Sam. (not bitch vs Jerk, just referring to past episodes). Since I have major s8 vibes, I'm guessing a Trials type story for Sam while Dean worries and fusses. I predict the Most Holy Man will be Sam.