Lemuria

So there were many reasons to slap Bran around this ep. Why bother to listen to the person who knows so much more than you do?

I should have posted last week, because I know no one will believe me, but when I was listening to some of the recaps/reviews, and commentators were saying that they really wanted to find out why Hodor keeps saying "Hodor," it just struck me that "Hodor" was a corruption of "Hold the door." I had no idea what door, or why he had to hold it, but I was pretty sure that's what it meant. Darn. I should have bet someone. lol

This was my thought as well. There are interpretations of the opening section of Genesis in the Hebrew Bible that hold that God created everything from "the deep," which comes from the same root word as Tiamat. The implication then is that God created order from formless chaos--not from nothing, as certain other interpretations hold--since Tiamat was the Babylonian goddess of chaos. One major difference between the Babylonian tradition and the Hebraic tradition is that Babylonians saw the order vs chaos as a battle, in that case between Marduk (and a bunch of his siblings) against Mama Tiamat, whereas in the Hebraic tradition, as God is omnipotent, there is no conflict, it is simply the will of God that controls. I'd prefer Tiamat; I think she's a tougher cookie than Lilith. And in traditional lore (though, yeah, that tends not to control in either comics or TV shows!), Lilith was the mother of demons, not angels. Or maybe it's Amara, and she's not only God's sister but also his wife (a Supernatural version of "Chinatown": "My sister! My wife!" :) )

Did I miss something? When was this said? It hasn't struck me that way at all. Not the least of which, there's never been any connection in any lore I've read between Michael and any other name (titles, yes), including Amenadiel.

Since we're dealing with Templars, I just assumed that the "magic stick" was a supposed to be a piece of the True Cross. As for Renard, yeah, any attempt to portray him as a family man would be ridiculous. However, my biggest issue is that he's willing to join with the people who just murdered his friend, almost before said friend's corpse cooled off. This is really damaging the character for me.

I wanted the track stars to go further but...really, really stupid. And Paparazzi? I just wanted them to get off my screen. Good Lord, they're annoying.

That's a "yep." Not only that, but once the child was born, the lower angels not only stopped attacking because they weren't allowed to touch him but they kept their heads down as the three (Mom, Jeep and Baby To Be Called Alex) went past. Only Gabriel, an archangel, was able to go after the baby. So this wasn't Michael's choice at all. Gabriel is choosing to have a short memory (he also seems to have forgotten that by bringing the de-angeled Michael back to full power, God was essentially saying that Michael had been right).

I partially agree. I think he's searching, but not for rules so much as purpose. Even if he once was a rule-follower--in the sense, I suppose, of obeying God's commands without challenge and/or fulfilling his purpose as the Sword--that all changed not only in the flashback in this ep but also the brief one we saw last season. He realized that God's commands may have been tests (last season) that he was failing, and that he could no longer blindly be what his designation seemed to demand he be.

ITA. Michael was clearly a laser-focused warrior--what his Dad wanted him to be--and essentially pitiless (swords are!) but he did his own dirty work, and did it with "honor" as he saw it. He was furious with Lyrae because he considered it vile/dishonorable to torture, and to take enjoyment in that torture. Gabriel, presumably the "nicer" one, ordered others to do the dirty work for him, and used the contents of the amphorae, which included a darkness that would drive humans crazy or having them smother in blood. I'm all, "Did I hear that right? This is what they consider more merciful that a quick death at the end of a sword?" and I can't say that I see the honor in that. It was interesting that all it took was one act to release a darkness that neither brother ever realized was in Gabriel. It made me wonder if God always intended the two to end up where they are today. For reasons as yet unknown. (I also really would love to see the scene where Mikey tells Dad that he won't be His domini canus anymore. I assumed, as a tie-in to "Legion," that the flashback was the point where Michael became the "rebel" that the movie Gabriel said he usually was. I think he's genuinely seeking redemption for what he considered his failure in letting his anger get control of him once more (even though I think he had plenty of good reasons to be furious at the betrayals of last season) and he saw this as a way to both do that and to save Laurel. I suspect he wasn't sure it would be accepted; that gesture when he came out of the grave, looking upward with his arms outstretched struck me as his feeling that all of this meant his Father was granting him some sort of absolution (and also gave us a Christ-like image).

That wasn't the only thing that had me shaking my head. I couldn't believe that no one pointed out that if he changed the past there was a good chance that there would never have been a Flash--and all the people the Flash had saved would end up dead (even if we take out the ones killed by metahumans, who also might not exist). Was that a trade-off worth making? I might not have agreed if Barry thought it was but for Godstiel's sake, someone should have at least considered the issue. Then we have Eddie's great sacrifice. But, if Thawn never existed, then neither should the Flash, because he created the Flash. None of them should have been there or known Barry. They didn't really think the implications all the way through.

I enjoyed this ep way more than I thought I would. Dylan Everett did a great job and I really liked Sam in this episode. I've liked Sam's attitude and actions toward Dean very much this season, but I still felt that there needed to be some recognition of the damage that his words in The Purge did to Dean, trashing Dean's whole life and character, but I'd thinking that we were never going to get one. The "pulled a Dean Winchester" was, I think, as close as we'll get: it was Sam's way of negating his telling Dean that Dean only sacrifices if he doesn't get hurt, because this was a clear instance of Dean putting others' lives ahead of his own life/happiness/wellbeing when he took the Mark back. And I liked that Sam stopped Dean from apologizing. I like Sam more at this point than I have in years. Some posters here and elsewhere have compared Soulless Sam to MoC Dean. I think there's a huge difference. Soulless Sam may not have been 100% of Sam but he was 100% Sam, all Sam's worst qualities, traits and characteristics. MoC Dean, otoh, is not just Dean. He's being acted upon by a powerful outside force. The Mark may acting on some of Dean's darker qualities--and I think the Charlie ep was telling us that everyone, even quirky, cute Charlie (and no, I'm not a great Charlie fan) had a dark side--but it's still driving Dean to do things he wouldn't do without the Mark's influence. I didn't think Dean was really saying he was a functional alcoholic but responding to the insult that being called a drunk is, with a humorous riposte that implied he was more high-class than that--I saw a post elsewhere that made this point. The poster equated it to someone responding to being called a mother-f****r by saying that he preferred mater violator. The poster noted that he was most likely not saying that he screwed his mom. My problem with Dean being any kind of alcoholic is that we've seen him go too long--include the recent healthy living stretch of time, which has to be at least at 2 or more weeks--without showing any effects. Basically, what the show has been showing us is that he can drink or not drink without having any particular withdrawal symptoms, which in turn suggest he's not addicted to alcohol. Is he a heavy drinker? Damn straight (and I do wish he'd drink less), but as someone pointed out in this thread, so is/was pretty much every hunter we've met. I guess I seem him more as someone who can really hold his liquor, rather than an alcoholic. Last but not least, a post here called Dean "middle-aged." Hey, he's only 36! That might have been middle-aged in the 1820's but not anymore! LOL

I have to disagree. Ultimately, the question should be, "Would anyone want to eat this dish or return to the restaurant that served it?" A chef known for innovative dishes might draw people to the restaurant but only good food will bring them back. You may get brownie points for swinging at the fences but in the end, a strike out is still a strike out. And it could cost you the game.

Something Wicked+ Skin-- Devil's Trap+ 37 - Scarecrow 34 - Pilot 26 - Dead in the Water 26 - The Benders 25 - Faith 25 - Something Wicked 20 - Skin 18 - Devil's Trap 09 - Phantom Traveler GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow

Pilot-- Devil's Trap+ Faith+ 35 - Scarecrow 34 - Pilot 30 - Something Wicked 29 - Skin 29 - The Benders 28 - Faith 26 - Dead in the Water 19 - Devil's Trap 11 - Phantom Traveler GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow

Shadow+ Devil's Trap+ Something Wicked+ 41 - Scarecrow 36 - Pilot 31 - Skin 31 - The Benders 30 - Faith 30 - Something Wicked 26 - Dead in the Water 26 - Devil's Trap 15 - Phantom Traveler 06 - Shadow GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation

Scarecrow-- Devil's Trap++ Home-- 41 - Scarecrow 35 - Pilot 33 - Skin 31 - The Benders 29 - Faith 29 - Something Wicked 25 - Dead in the Water 23 - Devil's Trap 15 - Phantom Traveler 07 - Shadow 05 - Home 03 - Salvation GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary

I think the only one the Mark could have been controlled by was Lucifer, the one who gave it to Cain. Could Azazel (whom I don't think ever styled himself as "King of Hell," since he was loyal to his Daddy and was working to get Lucifer out of the Cage) have taken Abaddon? We don't know but I suspect yes. Could he have taken Cain? Again, we don't know, but I suspect not. We've seen Cain do stuff no one else has so far. And Cain walked off the reservation, without any apparent attempt by Azazel to get him back, even though Cain would have been a great assist in helping to carry out the plans to free the Big L, so I'm assuming Azazel couldn't have forced Cain to come back. On a power level, Crowley isn't in Lucifer's league. Whether or not he's the most powerful demon around right now, Lucifer is a fallen angel, and we've seen that angels are more powerful than demons (yes, a high-powered demon could probably take a grunt angel, but level for level, angels have been more powerful. Cas was a grunt when he faced Alastair; in the multi-prophet ep, Crowley ran when the higher-level Cas powered up).

Home-- Devil's Trap++ Something Wicked++ 33 - Scarecrow 33 - Pilot 27 - Faith 25 - The Benders 23 - Dead in the Water 25 - Skin 21 - Something Wicked 19 - Devil's Trap 17 - Phantom Traveler 07 - Bloody Mary 07 - Salvation 07 - Shadow 03 - Home GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House

Devil's Trap++ Something Wicked++ Home-- 31 - Scarecrow 29- Pilot 27 - The Benders 23 - Faith 23 - Dead in the Water 23 - Devil's Trap 21 - Skin 21 - Something Wicked 17 - Phantom Traveler 15 - Hell House 15 - Bloody Mary 13 - Shadow 13 - Salvation 13 - Wendigo 11 - Asylum 09 - Nightmare 09 - Route 666 03 - Home GANKED: Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man

Devil's Trap++ Something Wicked++ Home-- 29- Pilot 29 - Scarecrow 25 - Devil's Trap 23 - The Benders 23 - Skin 21 - Faith 21 - Dead in the Water 21 - Something Wicked 19 - Hell House 17 - Phantom Traveler 17 - Bloody Mary 17 - Shadow 15 - Asylum 15 - Route 666 15 - Nightmare 15 - Salvation 11 - Wendigo 07 - Home 03 - Hook Man 01 - Dead Man's Blood

Devil's Trap++ Something Wicked++ Home-- 27 - Scarecrow 23 - Devil's Trap 23 - Faith 23 - Pilot 21 - The Benders 21 - Hell House 19 - Dead in the Water 19 - Skin 19 - Something Wicked 17 - Phantom Traveler 17 - Bloody Mary 15 - Wendigo 15 - Asylum 15 - Route 666 15 - Nightmare 15 - Shadow 15 - Salvation 09 - Dead Man's Blood 09 - Hook Man 03 - Home 03 - Bugs 01 - Provenance Back to top Quote

Devil's Trap++ Something Wicked++ Home-- 27 - Scarecrow 23 - Faith 23 - Pilot 21 - The Benders 21 - Hell House 21 - Devil's Trap 19 - Dead in the Water 19 - Skin 19 - Something Wicked 17 - Phantom Traveler 17 - Bloody Mary 15 - Wendigo 15 - Asylum 15 - Route 666 15 - Nightmare 15 - Shadow 15 - Salvation 13 - Hook Man 11 - Dead Man's Blood 07 - Bugs 05 - Home 03 - Provenance

Devil's Trap++ Something Wicked++ Home-- 23 - Faith 21 - Scarecrow 21 - Pilot 19 - Hell House 19 - The Benders 19 - Devil's Trap 17 - Something Wicked 17 - Dead in the Water 17 - Phantom Traveler 17 - Bloody Mary 15 - Wendigo 15 - Skin 15 - Hook Man 15 - Asylum 15 - Route 666 15 - Nightmare 15 - Shadow 15 - Dead Man's Blood 15 - Salvation 13 - Bugs 07 - Home 07 - Provenance

Devil's Trap++ Something Wicked++ Home-- 21 - Faith 19-Devil's Trap 19 - Scarecrow 19 - Pilot 19 - Hell House 17 - The Benders 17 - Dead in the Water 17 - Phantom Traveler 15 - Wendigo 15 - Bloody Mary 15 - Skin 15 - Hook Man 15 - Asylum 15 - Route 666 15 - Nightmare 15 - Shadow 15 - Dead Man's Blood 15 - Salvation 15 - Something Wicked 13 - Bugs 13-Home 11 - Provenance

catrox14, I don't think Sam hasn't inquired about the Mark. Dean told Sam about it in the very next ep--the Garth ep--and then they noticed that Garth was gone and put an end to any further discussion at that time, and Sam, to my knowledge, never asked Dean anything about it after that. We know he was looking it up on his laptop recently but I'm not sure that Dean was able to see that. I always wondered why Sam wasn't more concerned considering that, as far as he knew, Cain was the first fratricide and Sam was a frater (lol) who was currently at odds with his brother. Your idea that Sam might be considering a preemptive strike is an interesting one. I'm wondering what Gadreel is yelling "No!" to in the promo. As far as I know, they couldn't force the angel from his vessel. They might be able to talk the vessel into throwing Gadreel out, but this is the second time Gadreel had possessed this person, so it would seem the vessel was not adverse to letting him back in. I'm interested in the shower scene--no, not for that! Well, not just for that. lol--Dean looks so very unhappy there; and I wonder if he's staring at the mirror trying to see if there's some physical affects of the Mark. Edited to add: A recent spoiler from S.E. Hinton: "One thing--the Mark o Cain is really affecting Dean now! Changing him!" Not something that many of us did not suspect, but it's nice to have confirmation.