Lemuria

So Sam got to see that their fancy base was "not built for defense," which was stupid. (I mean, really? Who builds a base from which you intend to hunt monsters and doesn't take into account the need for making its defensive capabilities formidable?) That they had no backup plan, which was stupid. That they kept the Colt even though they had no way of making bullets, which was useless. And that they didn't approach Dean and Sam about it (they didn't have to tell them that they got the gun from Mary), even though if they know everything they said they did, they knew that the brothers and Bobby had found a way to re-arm the Colt--yet more stupid. And yet, Sam still wants to join them. Am I supposed to think that's smart? I agree catrox: I actually liked the beginning, where Dean did not back down and where he finally brought up that he had never been child. Then they had him apologize. Yet again in this series. I'm just going to hold onto what Dean told God to get Chuck to apologize to Lucifer: That you didn't even really have to mean it; he did it all the time!

"Andover, Massachusetts?" Isn't that where Meg Masters was from? Is that the only town in MA that the writers know, or are we supposed to be suspicious about this? (Knowing these writers I lean more towards the former than than the latter.)

I came across this compilation that I really liked--it's nice to see some praise for Dean (not nearly enough for 12 seasons, IMO): Dean Winchester is awesome Let's not forget, though, that the squirrel was one with the brains! :)

Put me in the "really dislike Billie" club. I find her to be one-note, smug, self-satisfied and annoying--and ultimately, totally irrelevant. She makes a lot of threats that she not only does not follow through on, but also doesn't seem to have the power to follow through even if she wanted to. There were some last year who claimed she was the new Death but even last year we saw (and we had it confirmed in this episode) that she has no power to actually kill anyone, which Death clearly had. Death could actually make Dean gulp; he just sneers at Billie. I don't see why it would be "fairly normal" for Dean to smoke, when the show went out of its way ("Folsom Prison Blues") to tell us that Dean doesn't smoke. The fact that she still hunted at all underlines even more for me the stupidity of her not demon-proofing and warding her house. Sam once said he felt responsible for Jess' death because he hadn't told her about his dreams. I never felt he had any responsibility there because he had no idea at the time that he was having a vision instead of a nightmare. However, I do think that he has responsibility because of a different reason: It's one thing, if you've been raised in a family of firefighters and have seen how dangerous that career is and have lost family members to that job, not to want to be a firefighter. It's another thing--when you know how dangerous fire is and how easily one can start--not to fireproof your new "I'm following a different career path" house. That's just stupid. Sam knew what was out there and that the things that go bump in the night tend to prey on humans, and yet he did nothing to ward the apartment he and Jess shared. If he had, he would have found out about Brady really quickly (for example), wouldn't he? In that regard, Sam and Mary were exactly alike. Somehow, they both thought sticking their heads in the sand would work. I agree, and it's one thing I like about this season: Dean is actually showing how he feels about the situation and he's not backing down or taking low and no one is telling him that he should or that he owes Mary an apology. I call that character development.

I believe they were, the same group Aaron's grandfather was working with, the Judah Initiative. I think it was even mentioned it in the conversation with Aaron. From the conversation, I got the impression that the JI was hunting down Thule members, with great success.

Speaking of off-the-world speculation, this is something that I thought about the other day, and it has to do with the Azor Ahai idea and the theory that Jon Snow is AA reborn. GRRM has talked about how the ending would be "bittersweet." I was thinking about the ending of LOTR, which I always thought was bittersweet in regard to a lot of things, one of them being Frodo's saying that they had saved the Shire but not for him. Going on the assumption that JS=AA, what if it's a circle but the twist is that the future came before past, that JS is not the AA reborn but the AA born, he's the Alpha and the Omega only he starts here and ends there? (OK, not being too clear here, am I?) If JS is the AA, I don't think we'll know that until the last episode of next season--maybe, Lightbringer lights up?--and in season 8, he and his allies succeed in staving off the Long Night. But Lightbringer was made in the past (I don't think JS will be creating a new sword in the show) by the AA. What if JS/AA has to give up his world, his time, everything he knows (well, he's Jon Snow, so he doesn't know anything, anyway lol) and everyone he loves (who's still standing!) to go back thousands of years--a one-way trip--to become the hero from which the legend springs and to create the weapon he needs to stop the darkness both back then and now? Something that would qualify as a bittersweet victory in my opinion. (Okay, this made more sense in my head than it does on the page! Sorry.)

I thought you might like this video I came across (the song is from the game Skyrim, "The Dragonborn Comes"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9-BdUzG8fU If you haven't seen the Seth Meyers skit on his late, late night show where Jon Snow is invited to a dinner party, I recommend it; I thought it was really funny.

I offer "Jonarys." Would be Targaryen-ish and it would let us keep calling him Jon. I very much liked the scenes between Jon and Sansa. I especially liked that he didn't confront her about the Vale army and that she came forward on her own to apologize for not telling him. And I loved the "winter" scene. Edited to add: Kierya beat me to it!

Loved the episode, starting with seeing the Direwolf sigil over Winterfell in the opening credits. (On a totally shallow note, though I wouldn't want to live on the same continent as Cersei, how much did I love that dress?) First let me say thatt the final scene, with the ships and the dragons and the horses and the music was just spectacular. But when I read the quote above, all I could think of was ScreenJunkies Honest Trailers for Games of Thrones (1 & 2) where they keep noting how long it's taking Dany to get to Westeros! LOL Yes!! We get R + L=J! And how cute was chubby-cheeked Baby!JonSnow (or whatever his real name is, which was whispered)? Loved, loved, loved the toughest Northerner of them all: Lady Lyanna Mormont. She took men five times her age to task and totally shamed them. Jon needs to keep her there to kick his ass if he goes off track! I didn't think making Jon KITN was a slap at Sansa. If this had been peacetime, I think she would have been seen as the Lady of Winterfell. But it isn't. War is coming, along with Winter. They need a warrior--and Jon has shown himself to be a beast in a fight--especially someone who know something about the Walkers. I do think Sansa will be the one to "defend" against LF; she knows him the best. I thought the Dany/Tyrion scene, with her making him her Hand, was lovely and very touching. These last two eps have given me a greater belief that Dany may not be her father after all.

I think Tormund rises because he's there as the leader of the Wildlings and is pledging their loyalty to Jon as well. As for Lady Mormont, while I don't see her, her absence doesn't mean that they are declaring for Sansa, as Lady Lyanna would be present either way, as her House would still need to be represented. Does it look as if the Man Bun is gone? A sign, perhaps, as both the producers and KH said, that JS fighting his way out of the people pile was JS being reborn?

I've seen speculation that what LF will want for coming to their aid is to marry Sansa--speculation that I think is correct--and that she will emphatically turn him down. It just occurred to me that maybe not. If we are supposed to see Sansa as getting darker, then I could see her choosing to ally herself with LF, in the sense of, "I want to be able to do what you do. Teach me how." It would be way for her to assure she never gets used by anyone again.

A quick question: Does it appear to you that no one, other than those who were there, knows about Jon's resurrection? Certainly, Ramsey didn't, or he wouldn't have offered to forgive Jon for allegedly violating his oath. If there had been any talk in the North about Jon, I can't believe it would not have spread to Ramsey through one source or another. I know I'm late to the Sansa Secret debate. I was going to enter the fray earlier but the interview with the actress took me aback. In the interests of full disclosure, I'm someone who had thought that Sansa becoming a stronger and more mature person, which I liked, but at the same time, I thought she was wrong not to reveal her communication with the Vale to Jon. When we have to twist ourselves into pretzels to defend/excuse an action on the part of a character, including arguing that she's now a military genius, it might be time to step back and take a second look and acknowledge that either the writing sucked so badly that there's no way to know why she did it, or her action was supposed to be seen as being wrong and it resulted in deaths that might not have otherwise occurred. And to me, this is supported by what the interview gave us. Maybe both Sophie Turner, and the director and/or producers (if they agree with what she said) think that her reason was just peachy-keen but I thought it was terrible. She kept the info from Jon out of some sort of pique that they weren't--what? Kowtowwing? Begging for her insight?--when she could have spoken at any time (nobody was either being asked for their input or stopped from speaking up)? And when she complained to Jon and he apologized and asked for what she thought they should do, she blows him off and says that she doesn't know about this sort of thing. Huh? To me, this is totally inconsistent. We, and Sansa, knew that Jon Snow was both aware and concerned about the difference in the size of the forces. Sansa kept saying they didn't have enough troops, with which Jon concurred, without providing him with a reason why waiting would change that. Even more, the actress said that Sansa had "made a plan" for which there should be "thanks." Writing a desperate letter to the Vale and getting no response, as some here have argued, is not "making a plan." A plea, yes. A plan, no. If she actually made a plan, as Ms. Tucker indicates, then Sansa heard back from LF and arrangements were made, which is why Sansa knew to go and meet him. For me, that interview made Sansa's actions worse, as I think it was very destructive of the character as this has her totally aware that another army is coming and will be there asap but keeping this information from the people who will actually command and fight the battle. Was it ego, that is, did she want to be the savior of Winterfell? Was she willing to sacrifice lives unnecessarily for this? Are we supposed to see this as a hint that Sansa is getting darker? Maybe tonight will clear this up for me but having had experience with seeing other showrunners on other shows approve--in the sense of, they didn't see anything wrong with what was done, as opposed to acknowledging it was wrong but holding that it was necessary--of characters doing things that I find morally shaky at best and reprehensible at worst, I'm not holding my breath.

True, but it is also said: "There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.[3]" So the "new guy" doesn't actually forge the sword--it may be that Lightbringer is in "hiding" (Longclaw, perhaps?) and just needs to be re-activated. Which may or may not require another sacrifice. Don't get me wrong: I'm not convinced Sansa won't be standing at the end. This just occurred to me as a possible answer to the question of why would Martin kill off Sansa (other than, of course, because he can!). (Just as an aside, there was a post that noted that, among all the mud-stained swords in the battle, Jon's was the only one where the blood was bright red. "The Red Sword of Heroes??"

When I first read that some posters thought Sansa would die by the end, I couldn't say no because with GoT, almost anyone could go at any time but I also couldn't see a particular reason why it would be Sansa. Then I remembered the Azor Ahai legend. Assuming for the moment that Jon is Azor Ahai--and there's a big "IF" in there--according to the legend, Azor Ahai could only bring Lightbringer into existence (as Lightbringer, rather than just another sword) by he bathing it in the blood of his wife (after trying animals), that is, someone he loved. There aren't too many people other than Sansa that Jon loves that are still left alive.

See, while I think Jon was too hotheaded in reacting to Rickon's death (though I agree that Sansa's position on her brother was contradictory), I also think that if what remains of her original army would really be ticked that she let their comrades die when she had a reason to believe that a huge army was on its way. They'd be less likely to back her as queen if they don't think they can trust her.

I disagree. Jon wasn't dismissing Sansa, he was dismissing her constant argument that they didn't have enough people. He was well aware of that. He also knew that this was all they were going to have--"Unless you know something I don't Sansa". "Uh no Jon. What could you possibly think I might know that I haven't told you?" if Sansa wants trust, she needs to give it.

He might be pissed that she didn't tell him she had an army at her beck and call. After he stopped beating on Ramsey, he turned his back on her and walked away. I'm glad Sansa has matured and changed but I'm totally pissed that she did not tell Jon about the Vale army coming. How many lives of her allies were sacrificed for no reason? The fact that she may have let LF's words stop her from telling Jon suggests she's not as mature as she thinks she is.

I think they are trying to show Arya has near supernatural levels of physical and inner strength. So you better not stand in her way or you going to lose. They are setting it up for latter in the series. to show how she going to able to kick butt on a whole new level. OR they just wrote that p Hmmm. Which one of those do you think William of Occam would pick? lol (I apologize for the extra lines and spaces in the quoted area but I haven't been able to figure out how to remove some things that get pulled in or, for that matter, how to delete an entire post and start over. TechDinosaur over here!)

I'm assuming this is the right place to put this (I apologize if I'm wrong and I'll move it to the right thread): A couple of weeks ago, I came across a song (on YouTube) from Skyrim, entitled "The Dragonborn Comes" and it struck me that if certain theories were true, it could fit a character from GoT. Apparently, I wasn't the only one with the same idea! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9-BdUzG8fU

Assuming that R+L=J (and I prefer to!), he may not be a bastard. Targaryens had been known to practice polygamy from time to time, so it's possible that Rhaegar (very, very) quietly married Lyanna. If that's the case, then, as the heir of the oldest of the Targaryen offspring, he would also be the heir to the Iron Throne, possibly the most uncomfortable throne in the history of the universe. The question is, when is it revenge and when is it justice? Especially when you live in a world where the official "justice system" does not give a damn--or will do anything--about it?

Having looked at the link, I had a question: when they show us the Wildfire "explosion," at the point where it fills the screen, does that look like a screaming face in the fire? I didn't find Dany's speech this ep to be "mad." While it's true that we, the audience, has heard it before, I could see the point here. In the cold light of day, the Dothraki were probably beginning to wonder what the heck they were doing following a woman. I think this was designed to cement her control over them. And to give them their first glimpse of a real dragon, which was very impressive (and I have to give all props to the Dothraki for their horse-training skills. Those horses took the arrival of a dragon bigger than a Greyhound bus really, really well!). It was last week that I thought I caught a glimpse of the madness. It was in her smile and her eyes as she watched the Khals burn. More than a little scary, IMHO. There was a post that suggested that GRRM was not interested in his story anymore, and provided a history of the writing of the books that was very interesting (the poster is clearly much more knowledgeable about GRRM and the books than I am). In addition to everything in that post, I think there's another factor. It seems to me that GRRM, like Robert Jordan, fell more in love with his world than with his story. No detail was too small to wax rhapsodic about, no spot on the map too unimportant to the main story line--you know, the Great Enemy waking up? Winter coming?--or too uninteresting to name and give a history to and to populate with characters the readers would be expected to follow. It ended up with a lot marking time from a story perspective. Tolkien turns out to be a better story teller, IMO, simply because he never forgot that the story was everything. There were 14 years of bones built into the LOTR and the world of Middle Earth but he never gave you more than a glimpse of them, enough to whet the appetite but not to get in the way of the narrative, which kept driving forward. If you wanted more, there was the Appendix at the end of "The Return of the King," and all the secondary books that have come out, and the Atlas and so on. But if what you were interested in was the story and the characters that drove that story, then the primary three books gave you what you wanted. JMO. MV, of course.

He's liable to be a tad upset when he hears about what happened to Jon--and that he sort of gave the seal of approval for Olly to join in.

That was my impression, too. Though Arys was probably not thinking of the Long Night at the time.

Because, for me and at the moment, the bigger threat and problem is Ramsey Bolton. Take care of that first, and then the lesser threat. She doesn't have to ever trust LF again, or even to turn her back on him, and she can prepare for the betrayal she knows is coming, but you don't throw away an army that is genuinely needed. At that moment, Sansa let her personal feelings about LF carry more weight in her decision-making than the importance of taking back Winterfell. Or of keeping the trust of your co-commander: Jon might not be happy at not being told that there was another army that had been offered to them but Sansa had refused it without discussing it with him.

I'm less than happy with Bran this episode but I do have to disagree with this. Bran's back was broken because someone, who shall remain nameless but whose initials are Jamie Lannister, threw him off the tower. I doubt that when he was warned to stop climbing towers, anyone was thinking this was the danger. Yeah, not thrilled with Sansa here. Jon has done nothing to earn distrust from her, while LF has done more than just a little. Especially when, LF notwithstanding, the troops from the Vale could be very useful.