MsPH

Wow, you hit the nail on the head with that description! I think she's stuck on this immature mindset where being and acting like other people is stupid and doing the opposite of what everyone else is doing is "real". I think that's what she means when she calls Neil's behaviour fake. He is a polite civilised person, which most people would love, but to Sam that makes him a sheep following the herd, and she despises sheep. I hope she one day wakes up and realises that she is not some uniquely real snowflake, she's just a brat.

Becca lives in San Diego and has for years now, way before going on this show. She moved there to be close to her sister and stayed when her sister moved back.

Never seen Ashley so talkative as when she was defending herself! She is only concerned with protecting her image and not coming off as the bad guy. She can say all kinds of syrupy nonsense to the camera, but once David's in hearing distance, she turns to stone. I guess she has such a high opinion of herself that she thinks David will fall in love if she says one nice thing to his face. I'm glad he said he was attracted to her at the wedding, but not so sure now. She is just infuriating. David looks much better without gel in his hair! I wish he'd either shave that beard off or learn how to shave his cheeks in less of a weird pattern. Perhaps she'd see him in a new light too, if he tried something different. Sam is so self-centered it's unreal! She says she wants Neil to open up, but whenever he does, she acts like she's not even listening. I'm sure she is, so it's like she's pretending not to listen, which is just bizarre. She has some serious issues. It's unbelievable that she thinks Neil has communication issues, when she can't even look at him when he talks! It doesn't exactly inspire people to open up when you're avoiding eye contact in any way you can. She's also one of the least feminine women I've ever seen. Just so frumpy. If Neil's still attracted to her then she should be thanking her lucky stars! Tres is really growing on me. He seems like a really warm and open person, though I'm still concerned that he's like that with too many people. He'll be a real catch in a few years. Right now, I sense some immaturity, but perhaps Vanessa will help him grow up. I do like Vanessa, but her giggling is getting out of control now. It annoyed me so much when they were talking to his grandmother on the phone and she just couldn't utter half a sentence without giggling. Just get it together!

I love Ben as the Bachelor! Maybe it's just because the last two couldn't even form a simple sentence, but his conversation skills are like a breath of fresh air. Impressive even. I also like how he handled the twin situation, especially since we got to see those adorable fat pups thanks to it. But that home visit really highlighted just how young the twins are. I mean they're still living at home in their teenager bedrooms! I also think Haley's "ex" is still in the picture, or at least a VERY recent ex, since who has pictures of their ex up on their nightstand months after the breakup? Right, no one. I have a feeling that played a part in Ben dropping her right there and then. It's so obvious who Ben is into and vice versa. I don't know how anyone could think he chose to keep Olivia around after how annoyed he was acting with her all episode long. It's so clear the producers want to keep her around because she's like the class clown at this point. I can't help feeling a bit sorry for her. She may be a bit delusional and awkward, but there's no need to spend half the episode on her unfortunate antics. Like, we get it already! JoJo's date felt super short. Definitely a lot of physical attraction there. The whole fake proposal for Becca, who managed to avoid being proposed to last season, was so typical of this show. They clearly wanted to freak her out. I thought her conversation with Ben was pretty interesting, but I don't think he wants to wait until the wedding night. Sucks for Becca.

I think Ashley seemed really happy to be alone in that clip. She also sounded really upbeat when she was calling David, probably because she was relaxed being by herself. The whole "this is so weird!" act is just that, an act. She's been dying to recharge without David in her ear. Can't say I blame her for that, but she's just so fake.

I don't think anyone's gonna receive a penalty just for being a poor sport, but quitting altogether is out of the question, I'm sure. So they're not necessarily hanging in there for payday, but to avoid having to pay themselves. Clearly the show covers the costs during the experiment, but I don't think they get much on top of that. There are plenty of people willing to go on shows like this for free. The contestants of the Bachelor receive nothing whatsoever, only the lead is paid. 15 minutes of fame and some travel is all it takes to get people to sign up. On MAFS you might also get a suitable partner for life, if you're lucky.

Finally caught up to this thread! Well almost. This show sure keeps us chatting despite being terribly boring at the moment. I have no idea why they thought it was necessary to drag this thing out over 13 (?) episodes. We see no progression whatsoever. My opinion on the David and Ashley debacle is that neither of them are perfect, but David at least took this thing seriously and did everything he could think of (maybe not enough in some people's opinion, but I'm talking from his viewpoint here) to make it work, while Ashley took one look at him and thought "NO WAY am I spending the rest of my life with that". She came to find out that he's a nice considerate person, so she thought she could get through this thing with minimal effort, if she just kept him at arm's length. Well unfortunately David is still under the impression that they're working towards a romantic relationship, so he's trying to gently move things along in that direction. I don't think he's pushy at all when it comes to physical stuff. He backed off no questions asked on the honeymoon, when he realised just how uncomfortable she is with anything physical. Since then we've seen him do nothing except give her a hug, playfully throw her on the bed and try for a kiss on the ferris wheel, which I can't blame him for. We saw it would be a lost cause, but he thought it was his once in a lifetime opportunity to bring some romance into their union, since they were on a date and she seemed to be enjoying herself. I haven't seen him try again, so clearly he can take 'no' for an answer. I can't get behind the notion that he never should've tried at all or that he should somehow read Ashley's mind and know when a 'no' might be a 'yes' and when nothing is a definite 'no'. Ashley has a mouth. She's perfectly capable of expressing her needs and setting boundaries. It's not David's or any guy's job to read her mind and interpret silent cues to know exactly what she needs at any given moment. I mean seriously now! Some people are more intuitive than others, and just because you're not at top end of the scale doesn't mean you're automatically some clueless idiot with no game. I know I've been a bit harsh on guys myself when their advances have been unwanted, but that says more about me than them really. It's not the guy's fault if I'm not interested as long as he can take no for an answer. I have enough empathy to realise that men are expected to make the first move and if they don't, they will never get anywhere. If Ashley wasn't married to David, she would've stopped returning his calls after the first date and that would've been that. However, that is not an option right now, so David doesn't really know if he still has a chance or not. He went into this experiment with an optimistic mind, so in his mind he must keep trying or else, knowing Ashley, nothing whatsoever will change in the next few weeks and they'll definitely end up divorcing. I'm sure it makes more sense to him to at least try, even if he gets shot down, since he has nothing to lose. Either they tread water for 3 more weeks and divorce, or David tries to challenge Ashley at times, even if it makes her uncomfortable, and maybe something, anything, will happen. He was obviously disappointed when Dr. C told him to stop trying, because he doesn't see Ashley initiating anything. To him it's as good as giving up altogether, since he's been around her long enough to know she makes the least amount of effort possible. Without his efforts they'll flatline in a day or two. I still can't believe Ashley went on this show. No way was she honest with the experts when it comes to her usual timeline. They may be incompetent, but I doubt even they would've chosen someone who doesn't even proceed to hand-holding in the time you're supposed to come to a decision about staying married. Dr. C didn't look pleased with her when she said it takes her two months to get physical. She wasted all of their time. Though thinking a blind marriage is the time to start experimenting with relationships that are based on more than physical attraction is total craziness as well. Sounds like the experts were well aware that she usually finds looks very important. How they thought she'd grow out of that mindset in this setting I have no idea. Maybe in 5 more years she will, since her biological clock will be ticking loud by then, or maybe not. It's not something that can be forced however. What a disaster. She should be required to try harder though IMO. Stepping out of your comfort zone is uncomfortable by definition, but it won't break you into pieces. Treating Ashley like some fragile flower will get her nowhere in life. No words for Sam anymore, except that she's a major d*ck. Neil deserves so much better! Yes, he should stand up for himself more, but I can see why he can't be bothered. It's not worth the drama and getting kicked out. Vanessa was annoying me a bit this episode. I hope they're just playing things up for the cameras, because the show needs some ups and downs. Her silent treatment was obnoxious. Props to Tres for trying so hard though. I was happy to find out he's been in love before and serious about someone. Hopefully the party phase was indeed a result of the breakup, not the cause.

I think they did that during Kaitlyn's season, since Steve was claiming she rejected both men and ended up single. Too bad stupid Kaitlyn decided to spoil the whole thing herself via Snapchat half-way through the season. All for nothing! Well back to this season.

Yes, and you're pretty much required to make out, even if you've had a crappy date so far and no romantic connection. Can't waste that romantic moment they've paid big bucks for!

I hate having to defend Chris, but my favourite part of his season was when he finally found his tongue and basically told Britt she isn't wife material, because she can't handle herself like a lady around others. Britt and TPTB kept blaming Carly for Britt getting dumped just to create some drama, but Chris clarified both at the WTA and in his People blog that it wasn't Carly's words that made him send Britt home, it was her own behaviour and outburst when he gave Kaitlyn the group date rose. He definitely wanted someone who gets along with people and I think his final two women really fit the bill. He also said something along those lines on Monday.

It's like groundhog day with David and Ashley. He tries and tries and tries to draw something out of her and she's just giving him nothing. Well aside from a cupcake. How hard is it to answer even one question?! There must have been at least one in that bowl that she could've jokingly replied to. Remember when we were all making excuses for her after she sent those strippers away? Should've just accepted the obvious. I was surprised when she said she only waits two months to spend the night with a guy, I thought it would be closer to two years. Though perhaps spending the night means watching a movie and then sleeping in the same apartment fully clothed. The look of happiness on poor David's face when he managed to make Ashley laugh in the ferris wheel... So sad. My heart breaks for him. She seems to have decided that David is repulsive and nothing will change that, so she refuses to even try. Which makes me wonder why she doesn't just quit altogether instead of letting David run in circles. Must be in her contract that she can't, otherwise it just makes no sense. Things won't magically change if you do nothing whatsoever to change them. It was nice to see Sam acting somewhat civil and even complimenting Neil on occasion. That said, I was also baffled by the writhing around on the bed trying to look sexy (good luck with that Sam!) when she clearly wants nothing to do with Neil's manly bits. Or any other bits for that matter. The poor guy still has to balance on the opposite edge of the bed from her! I kind of hope he's doing that by choice now, but I doubt it. Sam's probably hoping he'll make a pass at her just so she can reject him and feel like the prize that she isn't. How hard is it to have at least some physical contact aside from a side hug? I doubt Neil has any fatal illnesses she might catch. At least Jamie started a spooning with a Doug a few nights in and kissed him on the honeymoon already! I can't believe 2/3 couples this season haven't even kissed half-way into the "experiment". It's like watching a bunch of 10-year-olds. I'm still iffy on Tres, but I want to root for him and Vanessa just because they actually seem to like each other. What a novel and refreshing concept, a married couple who like each other! It was sweet how infatuated he seemed this episode. I hope it lasts. Their bathroom conversation made me smile. And Vanessa's dog is so cute and friendly!

Haha, what a slap in the face of Kaitlyn and Shawn, bringing them in last week just to ask them about their non-existent wedding plans and then announcing Jade and Tanner's TV wedding this week. I see what you did there, show. ;)

I don't find Olivia pretty at all. She just looks rough and slouchy. Now I have the image of her gaping mouth permanently lodged in my brain as well. Yikes. Girl is suprisingly awkward. I can't stand Amber. If you look up the word 'desperate' in the dictionary, there's a picture of her. She is a 30-year-old bartender, who has already been rejected by multiple men from this franchise and who made a fool of herself on BIP trying to make one man jealous by going on a date and making out with another. Yet somehow she thinks she has a shot with a guy 4 years her junior, who has 20+ gorgeous young women to choose from, some of which are very accomplished. He keeps totally ignoring her, and instead of attempting to talk to him, or better yet leaving, she just keeps whining about how she hasn't had any time and she might miss out on a great guy. I swear she enjoys feeling sorry for herself, there's just no other explanation. She clearly got the pity rose this week, since LB left, but she still can't take a hint. Ugh. At least Becca is Ben's age and already managed to charm one Bachelor. Watching the after show I got the sense Chris still isn't totally over her, so clearly she has that something something going on. I don't think Ben wants Chris's sloppy seconds again however, Kaitlyn was enough. Becca was killing it on that basketball court though. Good on her! Amanda's mousy girly voice is annoying me. How can she have two daughters when she looks and sounds like a 12-year-old girl herself? Ben's reaction to the revelation was pretty sweet though. He didn't even pause for a second. The twins are interesting to me. Emily seems very outgoing and Haley very reserved. She even told Ben she was worried about him being attracted to the outgoing women. I wonder if Emily's always been the one to steal the attention and Haley's just been the mute sidekick. I can see it being both a blessing and a curse for her. Just an interesting dynamic. I like them though, they seem surprisingly normal rather than a gimmick. Caila annoyed me less this week than last, but she just comes off very rehearsed to me. She's still not being real IMO. She's stunning though! The first part of the date was pretty useless since they barely got a word in edgewise. JoJo seems very real though and I like that about her. I feel like she's the most herself so far. Not bitchy, but not overly polite or poised either. I can almost forget there are cameras around her.

I don't think it was Ben's choice to give Lace a rose. He looked pretty pissed handing it to her. The producers have their picks early on and there's nothing the lead can do about it. Only Lace and Olivia seem willing to bring the drama and craziness so far, so they're not going anywhere just yet.

I like Ben so far. He's a little bland, but aren't all leads? I can't think of any male leads from the US Bachelor, who've impressed me with their personality. Even the ones who turned into trainwrecks started out bland, so it's to be expected. TPTB do their best to eliminate any interesting bits of conversation that may have occurred. At least Ben seems like a genuinely nice person and more relatable than most leads, plus he can string a sentence together. I can believe he has his insecurities, especially if he's used to being in relationships where he's the more eager party and ends up getting dumped. That will raise insecurities in anyone, especially in someone who wants a true companion for life, not just a string of flings. I like that he doesn't think he's God's gift to women, though I hope he's not blind to their faults, since he already said they're out of his league. Sounds like he has a habit of putting women on a pedestal and that's not attractive to most women. I do always hold out hope for a genuine love story on this show, so I'm happy when I can root for the lead. Drama is not why I watch, on the contrary it bores me more each season, since it's usually so contrived and producer instigated. I also think we already saw signs of Ben being a red-blooded male both during the first night and in the previews, so that's a relief! My main worry was that he'd act like a timid teenager, but clearly he just wasn't into Kaitlyn at all. I would've given my rose to that mini horse!

I see a lot of assumptions about atheists in this thread. Seeing as I call myself one, I'd just like to underline that the only thing atheists for sure have in common with other atheists is that we don't believe in deities. That is it, at least to me. There is no atheist ideology or dogma no matter what some may claim. It's simply a lack of belief in something most people seem to not even question for whatever reason. I call myself an atheist, because I do not believe in supreme beings, let alone the kind of supreme beings described by major religions. I wish there was no need for such a word to begin with, since it's silly to define anything by the lack of something, but I suppose all minorities need a label of some sort. This particular label doesn't mean I'm only interested in things that are tangible or that I'm materialistic, far from it. Sure, you can present all kinds of theories about spirits and god-like forces, even ones that sound appealing to an atheist, but they're still just theories and theories need to be proven before they're considered facts. Belief is accepting unproven theories as facts and that's just not my thing and never will be. Hence even modern models of God are out of the question, no matter how nice they may sound. They're all just wild theories to me. I wouldn't call myself spiritual, but I am interested in the human spirit, whatever it may be, whether it's just chemistry or something our meager brains can't quite grasp. Personal growth is important to me. Anyway, I'd like to quote the wikipedia article on Spirituality: "Houtman and Aupers suggest that modern spirituality is a blend of humanistic psychology, mystical and esoteric traditions and eastern religions." Sounds right up Greg Epstein's alley, so I don't see why he can't call himself a spiritual advisor. He's not advising them on how to summon spirits after all.

What the hell is wrong with Sam? She just makes no sense whatsoever. She said something about Neil only being real when she upsets him. Does she think people are only being real when they're frustrated and aggressive, cursing and throwing hissy fits? Is that why she's like that 24/7? Some people just are calm and reasonable and don't want to punch holes in walls for no reason. Shocking, I know. She knows she's full of sh*t, since she was acting like an evasive child in that conversation with Neil and Dr. Pepper. She had no problem talking crap about Neil when he wasn't there, but when he was, she got all shy and weird. She knows Dr. Pepper would judge her for treating Neil the way she usually does. Then she thinks Neil is the one with communication problems. Yeah right, because constant insults and complaints are good communication. She's so self-centered. Neil gets hotter each episode IMO. If I had to pick one guy out of all three seasons to date, I'd pick Neil for sure. No competition even. I do get Ashley more than I'd care to admit and I was happy that Dr. Pepper told David they are just different. I found it weird that he didn't get at all why Ashley didn't want to have a party for 50 people right off the bat. A party like that would be a nightmare for me, especially if I was the one hosting and thus the centre of attention in a way. They could be 50 of the best people in the world, I'd still be overwhelmed and unable to be myself. Too many people for an audience, too many people competing for attention. I always end up being the silent observer in a crowd and that's not how I want new people to see me. I don't want them to think I'm a mute freak, because one-on-one or in a small group I'm not. That's why I'd rather meet new people in small groups, so they can get to know me a bit and see I'm a friendly person really. Ashley wanting to meet David's friends in smaller doses was a good sign to me, made me think she cares what they'll think of her. If she had totally given up, she wouldn't care. He just seems totally clueless about different personality types and doesn't get that trying harder isn't gonna work with Ashley. Yes, she should try harder herself, but the night before a big exam might not be the best time to try and make her. She was obviously distracted and tired from filming all day. I did get a good chuckle out of Ashley describing herself as talkative, but perhaps she is around people who have no romantic interest in her? That makes me wonder if she's like this around all men who are interested in her or just men who she isn't interested in? It could go both ways to be honest. I do wonder about her 9-year-relationship. It couldn't have been very intimate if she's still this guarded. I totally get Vanessa as well. Call me uptight or a bore if you like, but I just don't like drunk people and I wouldn't even date let alone marry a person who is big on partying and drinking. It's just off-putting to me. If you like it then by all means, party on, but it's best for everyone to find a like-minded person for a partner. I couldn't respect or be attracted to a guy who comes home plastered on a regular basis. Sure, it's only happened once so far with Tres, but he's spelled it out several times now that he looooves to party. Last week when they talking about finances he also said something about blowing massive amount of money on nights out, so the theory that he only has a couple of drinks and can't handle them is not plausible to me. Clearly he's a sponge. I'm also not giving him any credit for changing his ways for the two weeks they've been married. That won't last. And it shouldn't. He should be able to enjoy his life, but so should Vanessa, and if a drunken unreliable player for husband doesn't fit the picture, then it's best they divorce sooner rather than later. They'll only be miserable if they try to make each other change. I'm also annoyed by the experts putting opposites together and hoping they somehow fix each other's "problems". First of all, who says they are problems to begin with? And second of all, it's not a recipe for a lasting relationship. Sure and extravert might make an introvert open up, but that doesn't mean their interests and lifestyles will ever mesh. Yes, relationships require compromise, but if everything's a compromise, then it's just not worth it. If one person wants to go to parties and events all the time and do this and that, while the other person just wants to chill at home and watch a movie or read a book, then one of you will always be bored or stressed and not enjoying themselves. It would be much easier to be with someone who enjoys similar things, so you can enjoy yourselves together, at the same time.

Ashley is so frustrating. At times she seems like a nice normal person, like when she was telling David about the broken handle, but then at other times she's just a rude lifeless bitch. I'm an introvert too, so I get her needing some space and quiet time, but that's no excuse for being so rude. Her reaction to David's apartment was ridiculous. Yeah that sofa set was ugly and bare walls are depressing, but it wasn't that bad. She was acting like she'd stepped in some dog poo. The change in her demeanor once she heard about David's income and saw that mansion was pretty telling indeed. She seems like a pretty shallow and materialistic person. I'm also baffled by her choice of profession, since it seems so out of her comfort zone. David is a bit clingy and desperate though. He is a likeable guy, but he's so desperate to marry someone, anyone. He basically said so in the first episode already and he also mentioned something about women not being ready for the same level of commitment AKA he scares them away by showing his desperation. Now he's trying desperately to make Ashley like him, even though he's obviously noticed by now that she's a total drag and doesn't even like him. I also thought his freaking out about Ashley wanting to spend one night apart was a tad ridiculous. IIRC almost all the couples have spent some nights apart between the honeymoon and moving in, maybe due to living so far apart, maybe just to get a breather. I don't think it's a big deal. Being with someone you just met 24/7 is stressful for anyone, let alone an introvert. I don't see how it's unreasonable to want one night to gather one's thoughts and relax. Yeah, they signed up for a blind marriage, but there's no reason to make it even harder than it has to be. David doesn't get that the more he tries to control the situation, the less comfortable Ashley feels.

The keyword was organic skin care. People who are into organic cosmetics (such as myself) are usually the kind who like their beauty products to be as natural as possible, and such people wouldn't even think of having neurotoxins injected into their face. I guess it's just a job for her.

I don't think most of these people view this marriage as that big of a commitment. The option to end it after their TV time is up is built into the show format. Sure it's a divorce, but for people from broken homes, it's often not that big of a deal. I'm sure the fame and paycheck is well worth becoming a divorcé for most of these people. They're all just dating at this point, even if more intensely than usual. She doesn't owe him sex until she feels comfortable with it, no one does. I too hope she holds out until he shows he's really interested. So far it seems to me like his interest has been declining, but maybe it's just the stress of the situation hitting him.

Exactly. How you view Tres is mostly based on whether or not you believe he just "dated a lot". I don't think he did, since he himself mentioned his partying ways. He strikes me as the kind of guy who picks up girls from clubs every other night and never sees them again. That's not dating, let alone dating with the purpose of having a long-term relationship. That's having lots of casual sex, which is unappealing to me and apparently to Vanessa as well.

Either Sam has some mild form of Asperger's, since despite her supposedly great sense of humour, she doesn't seem to get Neil's at all, OR like someone said she just wants to be the centre of attention, the "funny one" in the relationship. It's a competition to her, so she must crap on all of Neil's attempts at humour. So childish. She's clearly been spoiled rotten, or has some mental issues that have given her a pass all her life. She was just bitchy to Neil in this episode. Everything he does is weird or wrong, when he's been nothing but kind and understanding towards her and her insanity. I felt so bad for him when she told him she doesn't find him attractive. I'm glad he has enough self-esteem to let it roll off his back, but you could still see that it hurt him. I don't find him unattractive at all either. Yeah, he's not the most classically handsome guy and his eyes are a bit creepy at times, but he's not ugly at all, and the more I see of his personlity the cuter he becomes. I'd totally date him if I was single! Her bridesmaids and mom liked him too, so it seems he's only a troll in the eyes of his new wife. Great. I don't blame Vanessa for being deflated. She seemed really infatuated with him, while on the family brunch he looked totally freaked out when his family started making plans for the future. He did NOT look like a guy who's in it for the long haul, he looked like he was searching for an exit. I don't think Vanessa noticed it then, but then when she was talking about them having things in common, he decided to tell her that he's big on partying and that hopefully she'll help him calm down. That must've been like a bucket of ice cold water for Vanessa. She doesn't seem like someone who's into the party crowd and willing to tame a player. She was expecting a stable guy who was looking to get married soon. Instead she gets a player who was apparently scouted to be on the show and saw marriage as something in the distant future with a girl he's been with for years. Nightmare. I get why the producers have resorted to scouting men, since there probably aren't many serious options applying, but I don't think it makes these pairings any better if they match women up with guys who have no real wish to marry anytime soon. I'm still hoping for the best for them, but it would take me a long time to trust Tres. I don't think she's overreacting at all. I actually really liked Ashley and David in this episode. I didn't find them boring at all. I think there's some sexual tension there, since they kept giggling at each other for no real reason. I also think that the non-beachy locations are chosen for the people who don't want to prance around in a bikini on television. I can't imagine Ashley wanting to do that after what she said during the stripper situation. I don't think Davina wanted to show that much skin either, hence Colorado.

I do believe at least two couples agreed to stay married at the end, since they're already casting for season 4 in Miami. If they had two total disasters back to back then would they even continue with the show? Though people seem to tune in despite the disaster that was season 2, so maybe they would.

Even though he's an atheist, I'm sure he knows far more about religions and religious beliefs than your average believer. Doesn't he have a master's degree in theology? While a devout Christian may know his/her religion inside out and a devout Jew might know his, they don't necessarily know much about each other's beliefs and practices. From what I've gathered he's there to make sure that the participants' religious beliefs and expectations regarding religion are at least somewhat in line, so they're not matching people who are likely to run into serious issues on that front. He's not there to give religious counseling, otherwise they'd have to have a chaplain of each denomination. Or do you think they should have a rabbi advising Christians or a priest advising Jews? I think it's good that he doesn't have his own beliefs clouding his judgement, so he can view all their faiths objectively. He's not anti-religious after all, otherwise he wouldn't have spent years and years studying religious beliefs.

I could swear I read someone that Amanda works for an organic skincare brand, which makes her botox confession pretty bad PR.