Elizabeth: The True Believer

[Tara Ariano]

You really have to love the Soviet Union to bone that many weird engineers.

[Hal44]

Elizabeth was really smoking last night.

 

[DrSpaceman]

Really don't care for Elizabeth. She wants everything her way and if someone doesn't like it she tries to take them out or manipulate them in some way until she can do what she wants.

She doesn't act like she cares for her kids or her "husband" that much. Phillip is a much better agent and father, and yet she seems to take the view he isn't good enough for her.

She gets pissed when Phillip meets on old flame, but lets just ignore her years long affair with a fellow conspirator.

[topanga]

 

Really don't care for Elizabeth. She wants everything her way and if someone doesn't like it she tries to take them out or manipulate them in some way until she can do what she wants.

She doesn't act like she cares for her kids or her "husband" that much. Phillip is a much better agent and father, and yet she seems to take the view he isn't good enough for her.

She gets pissed when Phillip meets on old flame, but lets just ignore her years long affair with a fellow conspirator.

Elizabeth, like all of the characters on this show, is very complicated. Frustratingly so at times. What I've learned about her in these two seasons is that she loves Mother Russia above anything else--Phillip, the kids, and even Gregory (may his fine a** rest in peace). She's dedicated to the cause, even to the point of considering Paige as a candidate for the 2nd generation program.

 

Phillip, on the other hand, still loves Russia, but he also has deep love for the children, Elizabeth, and even the United States. Which infuriates Elizabeth, of course.

[Carrie Ann]

I actually think at this point Elizabeth's love of and dedication to Mother Russia is almost like a defense mechanism. A way to protect herself from having to question her entire life, and herself as a person, and what all of the awful things she has done and have been done to her have really been for.

 

I think she does truly love Phillip and her children more than she loves the homeland, but she doesn't believe she has to make that choice, so she just doesn't. And if pressed, she might deny it, even to herself. Again, I think part of why she's willing to consider indoctrinating Paige is that she can't bear to question Mother Russia because then the whole house of cards comes down on her and she ends up having a nervous breakdown.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see something like that happen at some point.

[CheersEnthusiast]

Really don't care for Elizabeth. She wants everything her way and if someone doesn't like it she tries to take them out or manipulate them in some way until she can do what she wants.

She doesn't act like she cares for her kids or her "husband" that much. Phillip is a much better agent and father, and yet she seems to take the view he isn't good enough for her.

She gets pissed when Phillip meets on old flame, but lets just ignore her years long affair with a fellow conspirator.

 

I see that side of it, but I would also suggest that she responded to that guy at the propeller factory when he showed her pictures of his sons.  She has a heart that showed when she spared him.  Add to that the fact she knew which one was his favorite that shows a parental recognition.  

 

The fact that she's always on about who's tough and how between her children may be acknowledgement that they could be forced to move back to Russia at any time and she wants to make sure they're ready--so the result of a protective mechanism.

 

The first show of the series she responded very positively to Phillip's (rather violent) protection of her when met with her past trauma.  She also seems jealous of Martha--that she knows a side of her husband that she doesn't.

 

She's invested in her family.  She's just the "tough one" or tries to be in any group or context. 

[scowl]

When the show first started I had hoped it would show the mentality of Soviet agents. I've read a few books on Cold War spies and their perception of the two countries was always fascinating. How would Elizabeth stay indoctrinated to the Soviet Union after years of enjoyable live in the United States? Was she ignorant of the conditions of the average Soviet citizen? Would she see daily life in the U.S. as an oppressive system that has created a bunch of haves and have-nots? 

 

Unfortunately the show has mostly ignored this boring topic. Instead we get to see Phillip and Elizabeth killing someone during almost every mission they go on. Even when they tried not to kill someone the poor guy ended up dead anyway! The trail of bodies they regularly leave behind would have made them the worst agents in Cold War history.

[sistermagpie]

Unfortunately the show has mostly ignored this boring topic. Instead we get to see Phillip and Elizabeth killing someone during almost every mission they go on. Even when they tried not to kill someone the poor guy ended up dead anyway! The trail of bodies they regularly leave behind would have made them the worst agents in Cold War history.

 

 

Well, to be fair they do far more work than any real life Cold War spies do so their body count is probably evened out. Most people in their position would just sit at home and occasionally meet with sources. Once you send them into top secret bases and have them breaking into top secret labs the body count's going to go up!

 

I wouldn't say the show completely ignores the topic of their indoctrination, though. It's been talked about by the characters occasionally. Elizabeth's position is that she claims to hate everything about American life, which she admits is "easier" but insists is not "better." Philip thinks it's fine to enjoy the perks of their job without this meaning they're not committed socialists who know that there are have-nots living close by. This is a big difference of opinion between them and is the thing Elizabeth was tattling on Philip about for years. Those two opinions are referenced in subtle ways sometimes. Even sometimes in funny ways, like the time when Elizabeth, who wants so much to see herself as completely untouched by her lifestyle, brought beer to Philip in his motel room. She was momentarily at a loss when she realized that she'd forgotten a bottle opener until Philip casually opened the beer the Eastern European way.  I always chalked that up as one of the many times on the show where characters say one thing, but their actions hint that the reality is more complicated.

[scowl]

Well, to be fair they do far more work than any real life Cold War spies do so their body count is probably evened out. Most people in their position would just sit at home and occasionally meet with sources. Once you send them into top secret bases and have them breaking into top secret labs the body count's going to go up!

 

But in real world Cold War espionage, there was no body count. Agents didn't walk out leaving bodies since that would be a giant red flag that information has been compromised. Good agents never left a trace. I was especially annoyed by the "tap into the Internet" episode. If Phillip were a decent agent, he could have talked his way out of the situation after he had been discovered. Since he's a lousy agent, he simply murdered some random guy who caught him. As usual the body somehow vaporized so it would never be discovered.

 

 

I wouldn't say the show completely ignores the topic of their indoctrination, though. It's been talked about by the characters occasionally. Elizabeth's position is that she claims to hate everything about American life, which she admits is "easier" but insists is not "better." Philip thinks it's fine to enjoy the perks of their job without this meaning they're not committed socialists who know that there are have-nots living close by.

 

The show doesn't completely ignore the topic of indoctrination but the discussion has been casual. It's been used less to build the characters and more as a plot device: "Will Phillip turn against the Motherland? Tune in next week!"

 

The Soviets had problems sending their own agents into Western countries. They'd spend some time in a grocery store and wonder what they were risking their lives for. Philip and Elizabeth have been in the U.S. for around twenty years! We've seen that they are a product of an elaborate infiltration program yet we don't see how that has made them different from other agents. Clearly their perceptions have been strongly affected.

 

I realize this is an academic criticism and the show is not intended to be realistic in any way. People love watching Philip kill unlucky bystanders and Elizabeth seducing dumb men while talking about missile defense systems. This silliness is what's fun about the show. 

[sistermagpie]

But in real world Cold War espionage, there was no body count. Agents didn't walk out leaving bodies since that would be a giant red flag that information has been compromised. Good agents never left a trace.

 

 

Yeah, I agree good agents never leave a trace, but good agents also didn't do half the other things the characters do on the show that are major espionage wins, so I can suspend my disbelief for that balance.

 

I realize this is an academic criticism and the show is not intended to be realistic in any way. People love watching Philip kill unlucky bystanders and Elizabeth seducing dumb men while talking about missile defense systems. This silliness is what's fun about the show.

 

 

While the silliness is definitely part of the fun of the show, the show doesn't seem to actually have much appeal at all for the kind of viewers you're describing who like watching dumb violence and sex. Those people seem to tune out pretty quickly saying the show is boring. The show's, imo, much more about beliefs and faith and identity with the unrealistic spy stuff raising the stakes and making it more dramatic (so when Philip kills an innocent bystander and Elizabeth seduces some guy the drama's more about why they did that and if it's worth it to both them personally or the world) and being like a heightened version of the every day spy-like behavior in the home scenes. Practically all the characters on the show are probably more motivated by this sort of thing than the average person. In this universe they're not necessarily so unlike other agents.

 

So as a fictional creation I think it actually hangs together pretty well with clear central ideas. But those ideas don't really go together much with agents who come to the US, go to a supermarket and decide the US is better. I think it has more in common with a lot of spy stories that are more about weird people who continue to be motivated by some stubborn, core belief that's central to their personal identity. i mean, you do seem to be making an actual criticism of the show not doing this, even if it's an academic one, but I don't see how making the show more like real life in this particular way would make for a better or smarter show.

[Umbelina]

Interview with Keri Russell and it's very good and has a few spoilers, so...be warned.  (posted in the media thread too.)

http://news.yahoo.com/americans-star-keri-russell-season-3-sexist-not-042748570.html

 

Real spies actually help write this show. (and others) 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ex-spies-infiltrate-hollywood-as-espionage-tv-shows-and-movies-multiply/2015/01/24/a50721a4-a183-11e4-b146-577832eafcb4_story.html

 

I do think the body count is high, but I find so much of it real, and so much of it about the emotions and relationships, and endless "on guard" tenseness that I forgive that easily somehow.

 

There is another link in the media thread that shows the real-life NJ couple this show is loosely based on. 

 

I wonder what Elizabeth would do if Philip just took the kids and ran.  The KGB wasn't everywhere in the USA, they had their own problems elsewhere, so finding some mid sized town in Colorado or Idaho and just starting over will have to be something Philip at least considers if Elizabeth stays so bent on Paige in the KGB.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Umbelina

[scowl]

While the silliness is definitely part of the fun of the show, the show doesn't seem to actually have much appeal at all for the kind of viewers you're describing who like watching dumb violence and sex. Those people seem to tune out pretty quickly saying the show is boring. 

 

That's all I hear about about the show at work. How many bodies did we get last night? Two I think. Did we get to see Keri's nice ass again? Sorry, boys! 

 

Every time they drop a body, I take the show less seriously. I've read too many fascinating books about real life spies to know that they just didn't do that. At this point I'm taking it slightly more serious than Alias, hoping that some true historical context might spill into the show. The historical references (Afghanistan, Brezhnev's death, Star Wars) are just sign posts so we know about what year it's supposed to take place. 

[Umbelina]

scowl, you may want to buy the DVD "RED."  It's really interesting listening to Robert Baer's commentary on that movie.  (former CIA guy, commentator on CNN occasionally.  I ended up reading his books, and the author he recommended as well.

[sistermagpie]

That's all I hear about about the show at work. How many bodies did we get last night? Two I think. Did we get to see Keri's nice ass again? Sorry, boys!

 

 

I believe the anecdote, but I don't think that represents most of its audience--or definitely not what the show itself is interested in. I've seen probably just as many "couldn't watch this show--too boring and slow."

 

I can totally get having a hard time suspending disbelief when they do that. It is an obvious fail on any mission--which wouldn't be a problem if it happened once but not all the time. Sometimes these things are dealbreakers. It just doesn't, to me, make the show into a cartoon because of what the show is interested in.

Edited January 30, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Chaos Theory]

I believe the anecdote, but I don't think that represents most of its audience--or definitely not what the show itself is interested in. I've seen probably just as many "couldn't watch this show--too boring and slow."

I can totally get having a hard time suspending disbelief when they do that. It is an obvious fail on any mission--which wouldn't be a problem if it happened once but not all the time. Sometimes these things are dealbreakers. It just doesn't, to me, make the show into a cartoon because of what the show is interested in.

It's actually both sides of the argument. If the show is too realistic it would actually be super boring and honestly not much of a show. A show needs a body count and the Jennings need to be good at their job. Although technically Elisabeth did get her ass kicked during EST Men and only won because of luck.

I can see people liking the show because of the sex and violence but also because of the intrigue because there is all of that. Plus good old fashion family drama.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[sistermagpie]

I can see people liking the show because of the six and violence but also because of the intrigue as well because there is all of that. Plus good old fashion family drama.

 

 

True--I enjoy the sex and violence scenes as much as the family drama! Though I do actually think I'd be just as interested if there wasn't so much killing. Especially since a lot of the killing isn't even dealt with that much. I like it when they do stuff like the Vlad/Amador situation where clearly killing Amador was a big mistake that Philip was trying to avoid and it caused a whole lot of problems for everyone.

 

But I think anybody who's *only* watching for sex and violence is obviously going to be bored for large parts of the show. Not only are there lots of scenes with none of that in them, but a lot of the sex is unsexy.

[DrSpaceman]

Well finished season two now and still don't like Elizabeth.

Not only that I don't find her character all that engaging either.

With every single decision with her kids, she cares little about what Phillip thinks and makes the decision on her own.

Childishly making your daughter get up and clean the kitchen in the middle of the night to punish her for giving money to a church?

I don't really care if Keri appears naked/semi-naked. Her character is so irritating to me I don't find her that sexy.

[Crazy8]

I'm not entirely sure finding her likeable is the point. FWIW I think she's a fascinating character who's been brainwashed by her country's secret service. If she wasn't quite so hard or unwavering in her belief in the cause she probably wouldn't still be alive.

[DrSpaceman]

Maybe likeable is not the correct word.

I watch many shows like this though and there is a delicate formula for a feature character like hers, which is the enemy-hero. Tony Soprano, Walter White, to some extent Don Draper, Dexter, female characters like say Nancy Botwin on Weeds (though I had separate issues with her) The characters for these shows to work best have to be constructed so that while we as the viewers recognize their serious faults, we still at least empathize with their characters personally on some level and find ourselves on some level rooting for the "bad" person and we are engrossed by their story

I don't feel that empathy with Elizabeth. The character is too wooden and controlling even with her own husband and family to elicit that type of interest in her personally, in my opinion. Honestly if Elizabeth was suddenly off the show, I'd still watch and don't feel much would be missing. The show could survive easily without her, in my opinion. Which is not really how you want viewers to feel about one of the main characters.

Edited February 1, 2015 by DrSpaceman

[Crazy8]

I hear ya, but I think we're about to find out why she's so cold. I do think they've hammered home right from the start that it's a more difficult situation for a woman to be in, so she has to be harder and more dedicated to the cause.

[scrb]

The flashbacks showed her hardscrabble life, after WWII, her mother had to reject food in exchange for favors.

 

So that was suppose to have hardened her.  Philip did point out to her that life is better in the US but she dismissed material comforts, said something about how they're on the right side of history, etc.

 

For someone who minimizes material comforts, she sure dresses stylishly.  Of course this is a TV show taking license.

 

You figure if a female Soviet spy was badass, she'd be about 5-9 and at least 145 pounds like some female martial arts champions.  She'd be too thick for some of those fashions.

[sistermagpie]

My favorite scene was definitely the one between Phillip, Elizabeth and Gabriel, the new/old handler. So many insights into who the main characters are and how they've gotten where they are. Clearly the older dude is a father figure to her, and he knows how to focus Elizabeth's mind on the cause by giving her that tape from her Mom and cooking them a taste of the Motherland. Obviously he's coaxing her look to what she wants from her relationship with Paige too. He's well aware of the benefits of carrot over stick. Phillip has to be handled differently though and he knows it. The Scrabble board may as well have been a chess board and I can see them trying to figure each other out over the course of the season.

 

 

I do really wonder about this. Because Philip's relationship with Gabriel is the same as Elizabeth's in terms of his availability as father figure. He met them both as young agents in the US and was their handler. Elizabeth obviously considered him so safe that she really does seem very open to him. She seems to love being with him because she can "be herself". She already had a father figure in Zhukov back in the USSR, and Granny seemed to show up hoping to be like a mother. Now her father figure handler is back. Not so different from Paige and Pastor Tim, I think.

 

Makes me wonder how the Centre sees the two of them. I mean, maybe they sent Granny because they know she responds to parental figures from the motherland and were surprised at how resistant she was to a new mommy--so now Gabriel's brought tapes from the real Mom.

 

But Philip...after all this time does Gabriel really still need to try to figure him out? Is Philip is some code they've just never been able to crack? If Claudia's kept the Centre updated on how Elizabeth actually cares about Philip now, he'll probably be leaning on her to convince him. And presumably trying to use his desire to be a good father against him in some way.

 

I hear ya, but I think we're about to find out why she's so cold. I do think they've hammered home right from the start that it's a more difficult situation for a woman to be in, so she has to be harder and more dedicated to the cause.

 

 

I think they've already clearly explained her coldness and anything else we get will be variations on the theme. I assume we'll get scenes of her mother teaching her screwed up lessons about strength and with holding love if you're not a loyal communist or something, but I think her pov is already pretty established. She's the type of person who wants to be part of a cause, she feels that's more trustworthy than people, and she thinks being "strong" means being totally for the cause and any human feelings are weakness. Gregory even laid that out simply to Philip back in S3.

 

With Paige she's got orders that go along with what she wants--she can make Paige understand her sacrifices as heroic, she can try to combine loving Paige as a daughter and a comrade (the only people she feels truly "right" loving), she can do probably what she thinks a good Russian mother should do.

 

Given that Philip is the harder sell, I'd actually expect his backstory to come into play here, with Gabriel etc. using their intimate knowledge of his psychology to make him do it. But it seems like Philip's past is going to remain off-limits. One thing we do know about his childhood is that it would have been equally hardscrabble, but no connection to the different results.

[Crazy8]

I guess you could argue that she can't exactly wear rags because she needs to fit in. It's just another disguise, but being so hypocritical is one of the things that really annoys her about living a capitalist lifestyle in the US. Maybe there's a bit of guilt there too.

I really don't hate her. I can't say I like her, but I can understand where she's coming from and why she's the way she is.

[sistermagpie]

I guess you could argue that she can't exactly wear rags because she needs to fit in. It's just another disguise, but being so hypocritical is one of the things that really annoys her about living a capitalist lifestyle in the US. Maybe there's a bit of guilt there too.

 

 

One of my favorite Elizabeth moments that I think goes to this is from S1. Elizabeth herself adamantly claims that she lives the way she does for the cause, that it's "easier" but not "better" etc., and obviously believes herself to truly be the same exact person who left Russia and could go back in a second.

 

And this is a really little thing, but when she comes to Philip's motel room with the beer--the time she wants him to come home but doesn't ask him--she takes out the beer and then has this moment of helplessness when she realizes she's forgotten to bring a bottle opener. And Philip just takes the bottles and opens them on the TV set like he no doubt would have in the USSR. She laughs and makes a joke about "seems like old times."

 

I just always liked it because I felt like it was a sign that she actually has totally acclimated to a lot of stuff in the US and is just in denial. Like now she's the type of person who doesn't just open bottles with a special tool but is at a loss what to do when she doesn't have it. In that scene it's Philip who's not seeing the need for a suburban kitchen gadget.

[Crazy8]

But Philip...after all this time does Gabriel really still need to try to figure him out? Is Philip is some code they've just never been able to crack? If Claudia's kept the Centre updated on how Elizabeth actually cares about Philip now, he'll probably be leaning on her to convince him. And presumably trying to use his desire to be a good father against him in some way.

I think they know Philip has changed or at least his priorities have, and that even though he appears to be lavishing attention on Elizabeth, Gabriel is actually there to monitor her husband. Him warning off the Center was a red flag for them. IMO this season will be about them slowly being turned against one another and the family splitting in two. Paige might actually be a red herring and her brother could end up being the real asset to the cause.

[sistermagpie]

Paige might actually be a red herring and her brother could end up being the real asset to the cause.

 

 

This sounds interesting--what are you speculating with it?

[Crazy8]

I just think there might be some classic misdirection going on here, and all that bonding between Elizabeth and Paige that we're seeing could be leading us down the wrong path. She's always been a Daddy's Girl. If she were forced to choose, I think she'd choose him. I don't know about Henry.

[sistermagpie]

I just think there might be some classic misdirection going on here, and all that bonding between Elizabeth and Paige that we're seeing could be leading us down the wrong path. She's always been a Daddy's Girl. If she were forced to choose, I think she'd choose him. I don't know about Henry.

 

 

I think Henry's actually been shown being closer with Philip more than Elizabeth. Not that there's any distance between them, but just there's a lot of stuff about Henry and Philip hanging out, and when they separated Henry just withdrew and Paige described him as having lost his best friend. Elizabeth I think had an easier time with Paige because Paige was more like her and so just confronted her angrily. She didn't really know what to do with Henry's silence.

 

But of course with Paige we've also got Pastor Tim in the mix now. I think right now he's the good father because he's simple and reliable and good where Philip has gotten confusing. I could see Paige, in order to show her mirroring her mother, becoming more anti-Philip because he hasn't joined her cause like Elizabeth appears to have done.

 

This is all just wheel spinning on my part, though. You could be right about a misdirection!

[DrSpaceman]

Its not just Elizabeth being cold due to her background for me though. She is controlling with her kids and her husband, gives little thought their feelings or their own ideas on the matter. I don't think that is her background.

Plus even knowing her background and having the explanation thats just how she is "supposed" to be doesn't really make me are about her any more. Even thinking back to similar shows and similar characters, say on Alias, Sydney's mom, she added something to the show and gave a different element and different view of things, yet she was pretty much a similar to Elizabeth.

I just find something lacking in her character

[scrb]

They lived all their adult lives in the US, in middle to upper middle class comforts.

Elizabeth may still be devoted to the struggle but she'd also feel out of place if she returned to the USSR as would some american expats who've lived a number of years oversea.

But what may change her thinking could be events, like the death of the other spy couple or the death of Analise, while she ponders turning her daughter into a spy and being exposed to danger. Maybe even her narrow escape would make her not want her own children to go through what she has.

[Chaos Theory]

Maybe likeable is not the correct word.

I watch many shows like this though and there is a delicate formula for a feature character like hers, which is the enemy-hero. Tony Soprano, Walter White, to some extent Don Draper, Dexter, female characters like say Nancy Botwin on Weeds (though I had separate issues with her) The characters for these shows to work best have to be constructed so that while we as the viewers recognize their serious faults, we still at least empathize with their characters personally on some level and find ourselves on some level rooting for the "bad" person and we are engrossed by their story

.

 

All of these are men  Walter White and Dexter both had a Large fan base that resented their bitchy wives,   We are MUCh harder on women then we are on men.  Nancy Botwin is a perfect example.  How dare she not be a perfect mother to her children.  We don't expect that of fathers  Both Dexter and Walter where free to be serial killers and drug manufactures at will . (The wives were resented for calling them home at night for their family obligations).   But mothers  we hold to some weird standard.   I actually find Elizabeth fascinating as hell because she is imperfect.  She didn't want children but it was expected of her.   Everything she has done is for her people.  Falling in love with her family is the unexpected anomaly of her life.  

Edited February 1, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[DrSpaceman]

All of these are men  Walter White and Dexter both had a Large fan base that resented their bitchy wives,   We are MUCh harder on women then we are on men.  Nancy Botwin is a perfect example.  How dare she not be a perfect mother to her children.  We don't expect that of fathers  Both Dexter and Walter where free to be serial killers and drug manufactures at will . (The wives were resented for calling them home at night for their family obligations).   But mothers  we hold to some weird standard.   I actually find Elizabeth fascinating as hell because she is imperfect.  She didn't want children but it was expected of her.   Everything she has done is for her people.  Falling in love with her family is the unexpected anomaly of her life.  

 

Carrie on Homeland

Nina on 24

Cersei on Game of Thrones

As mentioned Nancy Botwin, Sidney's mom on Alias

Pick a female character on Orphan Black

Claire on House of Cards

 

Its not about male/female.  Or being flawed.  All of them are flawed.  I can just think of a number of characers that are comparable to Elizabeth in some way that I find more interesting and more critical to the stories they are involved in than Elizabeth on this show

 

And plus I am not convinced she really does "love" her kids any any more sense than the knows she is SUPPOSED to "love" her kids as part of her job. 

 

To be fair though, I actually feel similar about Stan as I do Elizebeth.  They seem to be the male/female American/Soviet character coutnerparts on this show.  I don't find Stand that interesting either.  They really are the main reasons while I like the show, I can't put it at the top of my list of must watch shows like some of the others mentioned above. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by DrSpaceman

[sistermagpie]

In things Keri Russell has said about Elizabeth at this point in the show, it seems like the main thing about her now is that she thinks she's just right. She said the fact that she's even still humoring Philip shows that she cares about him more than she used to care. But, still she feels she's being really patient waiting him for him to get over his nonsense and realize that this is going to happen, but he's taking so long that she just has to move on it.

 

And that position is so confident and lacking in understanding for his position that surely she has to learn something. I think Philip will have to evolve too, of course, but he's already up against the entire world here. Him wanting Paige to have her own life doesn't tell him how to make that happen when Elizabeth, Gabriel and the entIre KGB is against him and doesn't care what he thinks. He already realizes he's been caught napping trusting that Elizabeth was going to church out of respect for Paige's independent personality instead of the opposite. Philip's good intentions already often come to naught.

 

I do think, btw, that there are some people who watch Elizabeth the way they do WW and Tony Soprano. She's the badass who doesn't care as much about others so she's the cool one.

 

But since Elizabeth is the one who's in such a position of power for her position and already moving along on it, it seems like she needs to be derailed somehow.

[scrb]

Hmm, if she still believes Philip isn't pure enough for the cause, they'll really have a big blow up.

 

Remember, Philip blamed her for them being abducted and tortured by the Center.  He thinks what she was telling their handlers caused them to suspect their loyalty and kidnap them.

 

If she's telling them that she'll hand over Paige while Philip didn't want the same fate for their children as the other spy couple who got slaughtered, they're heading for a big clash.

[DrSpaceman]

Hmm, if she still believes Philip isn't pure enough for the cause, they'll really have a big blow up.

 

Remember, Philip blamed her for them being abducted and tortured by the Center.  He thinks what she was telling their handlers caused them to suspect their loyalty and kidnap them.

 

If she's telling them that she'll hand over Paige while Philip didn't want the same fate for their children as the other spy couple who got slaughtered, they're heading for a big clash.

 

 

They are certainly headed for a clash this season over Paige and what happens with her.  Its going to be up to Phillip to decide how his loyalty, his daugther or his country.  Elizabeth is pretty clear on her choice. 

 

Also something that came to mind and maybe I missed......are they officially married?  How is phillip married to two people?  Does have a total separate identity, paperwork, everything for his Clark character so that he is clark and phillip officially and married to two women as two different identities?   

[Inquisitionist]

Its going to be up to Phillip to decide how his loyalty, his daugther or his country.  Elizabeth is pretty clear on her choice.

 

Elizabeth doesn't see it as either-or, does she?  I think she truly believes that Paige will come to have the same loyalty for country and be better off for it.

[soapfaninnc]

All of these are men  Walter White and Dexter both had a Large fan base that resented their bitchy wives,   We are MUCh harder on women then we are on men.  Nancy Botwin is a perfect example.  How dare she not be a perfect mother to her children.  We don't expect that of fathers  Both Dexter and Walter where free to be serial killers and drug manufactures at will . (The wives were resented for calling them home at night for their family obligations).   But mothers  we hold to some weird standard.   I actually find Elizabeth fascinating as hell because she is imperfect.  She didn't want children but it was expected of her.   Everything she has done is for her people.  Falling in love with her family is the unexpected anomaly of her life.  

 

But she doesn't love them. Not really. She only loves them in so much as they become what she wants them to be. I can't stand the character and I never watched Dexter or Breaking Bad so I can't comment on that part of it.  We've seen Phillip sacrifice his own feelings for his kids and for Elizabeth. He moved out when she decided she didn't want to be married anymore. He let her have the kids. He's the one fighting for Paige to direct her own path. He sees Paige as the fragile person she is. Paige has never known hardship. She's not cut out to be a spy. 

 

I think she's pretty stupid actually. It doesn't enter into her mind that Paige will wind up like her precious Gregory? Or the son of the other spies who almost got the drop on her because she was just SURE he was all about the 'cause'?  The previews are making me bristle because she's snarking at Phillip she could have handled it better. Yeah, cause she never makes mistakes? 

 

Unless she was some sort of epiphany then I can't empathize with her at all. 

[sistermagpie]

Remember, Philip blamed her for them being abducted and tortured by the Center.  He thinks what she was telling their handlers caused them to suspect their loyalty and kidnap them.

 

 

Actually it was *Elizabeth*, not Philip, who explicitly blamed the other person for their being abducted. Elizabeth thought that Philip's love of American perks, which she had to report, was the reason the Centre abducted them. Philip thought that the Centre abducted them because they would have to suspect everyone. But when he realized that he'd been roughed up and she got off with nothing, he figured out that he was the bigger suspect because Elizabeth had told them he was suspicious. I don't think he took the abduction as personally as the unequal treatment, which was down to Elizabeth.

 

I think that's important because it is the way the two of them always think of the Centre. Elizabeth wants to see them as caring about her personally and being mostly noble. People like Timoshev, to her, are just bad apples that don't spoil the higher purpose. And the Centre plays into this with kindly father figures like Zhukov and Gabriel--and even Grannie encouraged her to believe that she was right to see them that way.

 

Philip sees them as a government agency that can make mistakes and doesn't care about him personally--much less about his kids. That's why Elizabeth flipped out so much over the abduction and Philip didn't. She felt that she'd earned their trust and was offended at this sign that they'd treat her so badly. He wasn't shocked at that--he was shocked that Elizabeth would inform on him that way. (Which in some ways is just as silly as Elizabeth's trust in the KGB since why wouldn't he think she would inform on him given who she was? It's things like this that make me want to know Philip's backstory and why personal loyalty to family/loved ones is so fundamental to the way he sees the world.)

 

They are certainly headed for a clash this season over Paige and what happens with her.  Its going to be up to Phillip to decide how his loyalty, his daugther or his country.  Elizabeth is pretty clear on her choice.

 

 

For now she is. We don't know if she'll spend the whole season so sure of herself. People on this show have a habit of saying one thing but then doing another in a clinch. I don't see us going into a tragedy where Elizabeth just keeps doubling down on her views until it destroys everything.

 

Also something that came to mind and maybe I missed......are they officially married?  How is phillip married to two people?  Does have a total separate identity, paperwork, everything for his Clark character so that he is Clark and Phillip officially and married to two women as two different identities?

 

 

Yes, Clark is a completely different identity with different ID. But he's potentially not really married officially to Martha at all if he didn't really file any paperwork. Philip and Elizabeth file joint tax returns but never had a wedding ceremony and may or may not have a marriage license filed anywhere. It would make sense if they didn't since they arrived in the country already posing as a married couple.

[scrb]

Elizabeth seemed to be taken aback by the gruesome murder of the South African agent and let the kid go, even though the black activist wanted to kill him.

 

Then she cried after forcing the old woman to overdose on pills.

 

She said what she was doing was to make the world a better place.  Of course the old woman shot that rationalization to bits.

 

But she hasn't shown any signs of questioning the cause yet.

 

Meanwhile, Philip drew a clear line in the sand.  He's still a soldier but he's going to keep his family, especially his kids, away from the KGB.  It's no longer that Paige is only 14.  He seems to be telling Gabriel that his kids were permanently not going to be part of the game.

[gwhh]

why was Elizabeth allowed to reject her first KGB "husband"?

Did Phillip have a choice on his KGB "wife"? Or just E?

Why did E get a choice?

Edited April 14, 2015 by gwhh

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Oh wow, I love that idea of Elizabeth being faced with the choice because of Misha. 

I was thinking about her development on the show, and it's always so tricky with her because she feels like she's supposed to put the cause above everything, so when she doesn't she sort of hides behind other people or just gets hypocritical. She finds reasons that it's okay to break the rules or whatever.

I think with the kids she really doesn't want to sacrifice them the way she was sacrificed. She says she does, she thinks she should, but it doesn't get much clearer than that dream she had about Paige where she found a murdered Pastor Tim and he turned into Timoshev and attacked her. But she can't confront those fears too directly, because if she does she has to a) question everything she's been taught and b) question her mother's own decision to send her away without regrets. (Look at how her mother tells her her father just isn't one of the heroes of WWII because he was a traitor--I think that gave Elizabeth the idea that if she was weak she'd lose her mother's love too.) This doesn't mean she wouldn't want to recruit Paige--I think she thinks Paige can be recruited without being destroyed. She doesn't want to destroy her the way she herself was somewhat destroyed.

And yet Philip unapologetically puts family first and she loves him. In fact, she finally gave in to feelings for him the minute he put her above everything--above defection and above the Centre. I think Elizabeth secretly wants that above everything, even if she's scared to give it in return. So I think a lot of the time in parenting she really loves having Philip there to provide that. Sometimes she thinks he's wrong and she still plays the bad cop when she thinks it's necessary, but I think she also really often relies on Philip to fight for the kids when he thinks it's too much. She completely trusts Philip to bring up the kids alone if something happened to her--even thinks he'd be better for them.

Sometimes when she starts to think about putting the Cause above him I think she tries to sort of passively get out of it. Like in S1 she sent him away to fully concentrate on the cause, but when she wanted him back (after he STILL sacrificed for her even when she was breaking her own rules out of emotion with Gregory and Timoshev), she tried to put it on him by hoping he was saying he had to come home for the kids' sake. And twice last season she tried to put it on him, saying that if she died he should raise the kids as Americans as he wanted (with her blessing) and if he wanted to leave with Martha (and so have a woman who put him first) she'd understand. Every time Philip chose her instead.

A choice between lying to Philip about Mischa or not would take those safety nets away and force her to declare for Philip or the Centre, even if it's just in her heart and the Centre doesn't know about it. And she'd just be doing it out of feelings for him, since this isn't even her kid.

[Umbelina]

It's so hard to put Elizabeth into the "what if this was our side, and Elizabeth was OUR CIA, we would be rooting her on!" role, simply because, in no way would the Soviet Union offer more to someone from the USA than the USA could.  Abundance alone, privacy, the right to choose what to be, what to do...etc.

So I was trying to force this issue.  First, we need a country vastly richer than the USA, but still our enemy, and those countries wouldn't give Elizabeth any rights or freedom, since the only ones I can really think of are Saudi Arabia, Dubai, etc.  (enemy at least theologically, AND rich)

So that throws me back to a guy who is as patriotic as Elizabeth, but for the USA, not the USSR. 

Is Stan that patriotic?  Maybe. 

So throw Stan in Saudi Arabia or Dubai.  He's CIA, he's our spy, but he is reveling in the luxury there, pretty much decides (after his disastrous relationships with women in the states) envying the harems, the fact that women don't demand or talk back to men, the beaches, the abundance of everything from food to recreation.  It's all starting to feel so much better than mortgage payments, cutting the grass, alimony payments, and his unappreciated work at the CIA.  He's offered a way to stay, to live in comparative luxury forever, just give up the USA.  He doesn't even have to give up secrets, or become a traitor, just to bag it all and stay there, forget the CIA.  OK, his leaving will hurt the CIA in some ways, they lose a valuable asset.  Would we be cheering him on to just bail?

Maybe.

Meanwhile I love the idea of Elizabeth being the one to force to choose between Misha and her loyalty to the Soviet Union, choosing Misha, of course, would mean choosing PHILIP over the KGB.

That would be a far more palatable ending that something Paige does.

However, if she does that?  I have a feeling she dies as well, dies for Philip, protecting Misha?

[Christina]

11 hours ago, scartact said:

..But it seems to have resulted in a female character being judged far more harshly than I believe her male counterpart would be if their respective roles had followed more traditional emotional profiles.

After deciding this portion of my post would be better off in Elizabeth's thread instead of the episode one, I cut it with the intention of pasting it here, only to somehow lose it all, including the multiple quotes and all my text. My Multiple Sclerosis is making my hands ache and I don't want to try and gather all the quotes again, so I just put this one even though I'm not trying to single it out, and I am semi-agreeing and semi-disagreeing with it, which reads a bit odd as a response to it. I've also truncated my response to type less and because I forgot some of what I had written prior, and it is still really long. I've also decided to just use the collective "we" knowing that not everyone agrees. It's been a long day, my hands hurt, my brain is fuzzy and my eyelids are heavy. Poor, pitiful me. At least Serenity is on. I wonder what the Jennings would do with a pet Reaver?

TL:DR - Reverse the genders and Philip would still be considered a sociopath and Elizabeth would be considered weak-minded and easily lead. 

I don't think that Elizabeth is being judged more harshly because she is a female and Philip is given a bit of a pass when he kills because he's male. Not in the stereotypical way. The Elizabeth character has been written as a fanatical devotee to her cause, all black and white with no shades of gray in the beginning, and has grown as the series continues. Philip's character has be shown to follow orders, but also question them, and has had more emotional behavior since episode one. I don't remember if he killed the man who was aggressively flirting with Paige at the mall, but he made certain to pay him a visit. The man who raped his wife as a teen had to die.  When he thought Pastor Groovy Hair was taking advantage of Paige, he paid him a visit, only to have Paige's money returned because PGH didn't realize she didn't have permission to donate it. If the roles were reversed and Elizabeth was the one to pay those men a visit, I  think it would have been more likely that certain factions of the internet would be accusing her of being too emotional or hormonal, but the majority of (collective) us wouldn't have had an issue with it, either. We also had Philip questioning whether it would be appropriate to have sex with Kimmie, and it was shown to be a major issue for him.

With Philip, "emotional" was treated as one of his layers, along with his ability to think critically about the information and orders he was receiving, making him a more rounded person. We see Elizabeth as stiff and unwavering, so when we find out that she was in love with a drug dealer that was one of her assets, we realize she does have emotions and the ability to love, giving her a new layer. As time goes on, we watch as she realizes she loves Philip, and she begins to trust him more when he wants to "wait and see" before acting, like when President Reagan was shot. We watch her grow and become more well-rounded.

He strangled that man on the airport shuttle and showed some remorse, but it had to be done. He asks the woman waiting in the car in Kansas if she was okay after witnessing them carrying the lab worker who died for making the mistake of showing up to work. Elizabeth shoots Hans because cut himself, and doesn't think twice about it since the death from the Lassa fever would be horrifically painful. Philip would have done the same, but probably would have had a brief moment of sadness show on his face. Elizabeth tosses Paige in the water to teach her how to swim because that is how she learned, and she sees hesitation and fear as a weakness. If Philip did that, we would be calling him cold, too. If the roles were reversed, that, in my opinion, would be stereotypical. It would be that he is a violent sociopath and she was an emotional mess who was being taken advantage of by her husband who kept telling on her to their bosses, like a child. We think the same with the roles reversed, with her being a sociopathic tattletale but also see him as cold-blooded killer. They are complex characters like most people are in real-life, as opposed to cardboard cut-outs of characters with the man being strong and violent and the woman being weak-minded and easily lead. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Christina
It posted in all bold. Never had that happen before...

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Christina said:

TL:DR - Reverse the genders and Philip would still be considered a sociopath and Elizabeth would be considered weak-minded and easily lead. 

 

I agree. In fact, there were a lot of people who loved Elizabeth in the beginning because she was the bad ass and people like bad asses. It was just that as the show went on you couldn't help but see how her fanaticism was often just wrong and made her genuinely difficult to live with. If she was devoted first and foremost to her husband she would fall into the cliche of the woman doing everything for the man--Philip gets called pussy-whipped. (He didn't kill the guy who came onto Paige at the mall, btw--but he did skewer him in the balls with a toasting fork! And I'm actually not so sure Pastor Tim had to give back the money after his completely unacceptable excuse that he didn't think to do a little due diligence on the 14-year old giving him that much of her own money. But that was just because it wasn't really about the money, but Pastor Tim's sucking her dry in every way. So not disagreeing!)

I mean, it's very easy to see Elizabeth as the tragic flaw of this family, the one that will ultimately cause its destruction. (This is why when people think about one of them dying, I always think Philip, because that would leave Elizabeth having to live with the fact that she destroyed the most important thing in her life because she didn't value it enough.) If she was a man I think that would be seen just as badly--the boorish idiot husband who always thinks he's right and the woman who should have dumped his ass. 

A different thing that sometimes interests me is how it sometimes seems like people are more forgiving of these type of characters if they're acting out of selfishness--like Walter White or Tony Soprano. I was once talking to someone who thought those characters were better, morally, because they were acting out of their own reasons (power, greed, male ego...) while Philip and Elizabeth do things because someone else tells them to, and that makes them worse. You rarely see somebody criticizing Philip for getting in Elizabeth's bad ass way the way Skyler White was. Although I guess that's also because he doesn't do it much.

[sistermagpie]

First, we have good old fashioned sexism.  Then they write for Phillip much better then they write for Elizabeth (which can also be attributed to some sexism like the episode of Seinfeld where Jerry and George admitted they have no idea how to write female character, because they have never really cared about what make women tick.  As a poster noted up thread, They "show" for Phillip, where they often just "tell" for Elizabeth.  When Elizabeth ruined the life of that nice Korean couple, that was the first time she seemed to truly show remorse.  It made me realize we often see Phil's guilt over the horrible things he does (like Kimmy), but they rarely show E as anything but stone cold.  At first, I attributed this to her personality, but now I think it could be the writing.

 

I think it's hard to say that the writing is just better for Philip. It seems like they actually put a lot of effort into writing for Elizabeth--in fact, in the past season arcs tended to center around her. I mean, everyone got a story, but there often seemed to be a spine of the slowly-changing Elizabeth at the center:

1 - Elizabeth learning to be vulnerable and love

2 - Elizabeth considering the consequences of being an Illegal and a parent

3 - Elizabeth dealing with the reality of Paige knowing who she is vs. fantasy

4 - Elizabeth starting to understand why it's bad to always put the mission above everything

Other people get arcs in these seasons too, of course, but when I think of each one Elizabeth's story often seems the clearest way to remember the season. Maybe because she's the most proactive character. She's often spending the early part of the season creating the problem she'll be dealing with in the second--and I don't mean plotwise (like Philip hoodwinking Martha leads to her extraction, for instance) but emotionally. There's times where she's fighting her own instincts and impulses more than anything external, or getting what she wants and then seeing she doesn't like it.

I think her coldness is supposed to be her personality. Almost everything about her story is about it. That's not really something we can be shown rather than told a lot of the time, because Elizabeth isn't always aware of her own psychology. She's often way off. When she is connected to it she can be right on the money--the two times she's talked about her real feelings with assets in the guise of a different person, her explanations to Philip about Gregory. But that type of person is often one or the other--her regular setting and her defensive setting are both cold and hostile. The other setting is very very vulnerable. (Examples of that I'd say were her telling Philip about Gregory, her asking him if he wanted to leave with Martha. She's really only that way with him.)

[Umbelina]

I never hated Skylar, and I don't hate Elizabeth.  I understood both of them, their motivations, perhaps Skylar a bit more since she tried things both ways...where Elizabeth is a fanatic or patriot, to me those words are pretty similar.

If they were CIA some people would probably like Elizabeth more, staying true to her country no matter what.  Then again, that depends on the kind of movie it is.  No one has problems with female killing machines or spies when they are on "our side" or the focus of the movie is "ACTION" rather than nuanced. 

I think people like Philip more because we are Americans watching a show about spies working against America, and Philip  is the one showing doubts, the one who wants to be like us, would rather just give up the KGB and chill out with backyard BBQs, beers, and freedom.  So, of course he's more relatable.  He'd like to be an American!

Elizabeth is fighting for a cause, one she believes in, for a variety of reasons.  She's steadfast, not wavering, she isn't seduced by ease or abundance.  She stays true to her country.  Now if that country was America instead of the Soviet Union, would many Americans watching love her?  Probably.  Or if her cause was Christ versus the Devil, would many Christians support her actions?  Probably. 

I think a lot of it comes down to nationalism and patriotism. 

I wonder how Russians who are still there view this show?  That would be cool to find out.

[gwhh]

A quote by Italian strategist that describes her perfectly:

 

I laugh, and my laughter is not within me;

I burn, and the burning is not seen outside.

[Chaos Theory]

I love Elizabeth because she is a fanatic.  And I always liked the idea that the show write the female as the fanatic.  And I disagree that the show is "telling" and not "showing" with her.  I think the show is doing an amazing job of show how Elizabeth is growing as a human being.  Even in small ways she is able to feel empathy for her family but to her the cause comes first.  Just because she loves her family doesn't mean a lifetime of conditioning will vanish and she will value their welfare over her duty.  That thought would never have even occurred to her previously.  The face that she is even thinking it now actually is a big *huge* step for her.  It wasn't huge step to follow Philips lead and get Martha out of the country and not just kill her and tell I'm she had no choice.  It was a huge step for her to get his son Misha to a safer job bfor safety even though she had nothing to gain.  It was a huge step to even ask not to go toward with that seduction mission because she liked the family.  Elizabeth does have feelings and I thini she shows them in interesting ways.

[scartact]

@Christina the user quote in your post can actually be attributed to @stagmania!

Anyway, Elizabeth is actually my favorite character and much more interesting than some static interpretations of her character as merely sociopathic or manipulative. There's a lot of ways that I actually find her character really transparent and easy to read in ways that sometimes is a little bit tougher with Philip. Elizabeth tends to be more concrete and the information we get about her is more concrete (Philip's history often feels like it's designed more abstractly and through strong emotional images). Interestingly, her militancy is actually something I recognize in community organizing spaces (the emotional state, not the actual espionage and murder!).

I think it's still impossible not to read some critiques of Elizabeth as not coming from a place of internalized sexism because she subverts traditional gender roles. For me, Elizabeth can still be very cold, but have a lot of very complex emotions hidden beneath the surface. That most echoes when I think about her interaction with Paige in Midges and how she tells Paige that you don't tell someone everything in relationships and the subtext that I got from that is how close she has kept things to her chest and how it's only a relatively recent development that she's let Philip in. I also wonder too how true and not true that is for Elizabeth who has continually kept opening to Philip and being vulnerable with him in ways she hadn't previously.

[stagmania]

14 hours ago, scartact said:

I think it's still impossible not to read some critiques of Elizabeth as not coming from a place of internalized sexism because she subverts traditional gender roles. For me, Elizabeth can still be very cold, but have a lot of very complex emotions hidden beneath the surface. 

While I certainly don't think all or even most bear misogynistic attitudes toward Elizabeth (and certainly not people willing to spend so much time discussing the intricacies of her characterization in a separate forum!), for me it's impossible to miss the way it permeates discussion of the episodes on a near weekly basis. Regardless of what actually happens in a given episode, some segment of discussion is always about what's "wrong" with Elizabeth and the ways she fails in traditional gender roles (mother, wife, etc). There are viewers that seem to truly hate her with such vitriol, and it's nearly always paired with willful misreading of what we see of her onscreen. It's the kind of hate I have only ever seen directed at female characters. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by stagmania