S15.E11: The Men Tell All

[RealHousewife]

On 7/26/2019 at 8:08 PM, ApolloSun said:

Beautifully stated.  More and more, I notice there are very few lax rules that women should follow and a seemingly endless list of impossible rules for men.  If most women had to tolerate the name-calling and bashing that men regularly receive on reality TV, scripted programs and in real life, I think most would have an instant melt-down.

Bashing men has become normalized.  Men are called idiots and d*cks so often and so randomly, that this generation thinks it's totally normal and acceptable to be verbally abusive to men over every bitty thing they're triggered by.  Women laugh hysterically when a man gets accidentally hit in his privates.  If the same happened to a woman and a bunch of men laughed, they'd quickly be chastised and then berated for being such "misogynists".  Can't wait for #FemalePrivilege to be a thing, but I won't hold my breath.

I noticed that with this show. If a man treated the contestants the way Hannah treated the men this season, there would absolutely be outrage. I personally don't like to name call men any more than I like to name call women, don't like to see them in pain (like that stupid pregnancy thing early in the season), and don't think it's fair to hold them to higher standards than myself. 

I still know so many people who think men who sleep around are studs and women who do are sluts, and that women must be sweet and ladylike at all times no matter what is going on, but when men speak up, however harshly, it's strength. So I'm not personally sure the culture has shifted that much. I do feel like I'm in some alternate universe where Hannah is considered a role model or any kind of feminist icon though. Women have sexual needs too, and I don't think it's fair to expect them to be virgins while applauding men for getting theirs. I also hate that when a woman speaks her mind, she's more likely to be considered a bitch, or that she has a temper, or is on her period or whatever. It's just that with Hannah, frankly she has come across as quite harsh and rude in multiple episodes, and Luke preferring someone he truly cares about and wants to get engaged to not having just slept with someone else doesn't mean he's slut shaming to me, just that he's a human who has feelings and standards. It's nothing but human to not want someone you want to marry to be banging other dudes when you think you had a mutual love at first sight connection. 

On 7/26/2019 at 8:25 PM, ApolloSun said:

I truly can't wait until the skinny jeans men are told to wear are gone from this planet.  It totally feminizes men and they're just awful.  The sagging jeans are awful too, for sure.

Totally! I can't stand this look on men. Wear what you want by all means, but I don't personally think it's sexy or masculine on a man at all. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by RealHousewife

[Mabinogia]

7 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

Luke preferring someone he truly cares about and wants to get engaged not having just slept with someone else doesn't mean he's slut shaming to me

It isn't that he has that standard it's that he was "willing to forgive her slip up" that is the shamming part. She didn't do anything that requires his forgiveness. She slept with someone she is dating. Luke didn't like that. Both are in the right. Luke telling her she "slipped up" is where he went wrong. Not his call to make. They aren't married. They aren't even in a monogamous committed relationship. 

To make him even worse, he immediately retracted his "threat" to leave when he found out it was too late to keep her in line. She had already done what she "wasn't supposed to" according to him. 

There are a lot of issues going on here and I think they are getting clumped together. Luke isn't wrong for wanting a woman who will not screw another guy while dating him. He is kind of wrong for expecting that on this particular show, but I can chalk that up to a combination of naivete and vanity (he assumed once she met him she wouldn't want any other man so he didn't need to specifically tell her not to). Hannah was right that it is her body and she can sleep with whoever she wants. She is wrong for not seeing the ten thousand warning signs that Luke just is not the right guy for her given their very different take on Christianity. They were both wrong in thinking that their shared faith meant they were on the same page about every belief. 

The thing I take away from this is, they both have a LOT of growing up to do before either of them will be capable of a healthy relationship. 

[Just Carol]

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

It isn't that he has that standard it's that he was "willing to forgive her slip up" that is the shamming part. She didn't do anything that requires his forgiveness. She slept with someone she is dating. Luke didn't like that. Both are in the right. Luke telling her she "slipped up" is where he went wrong. Not his call to make. They aren't married. They aren't even in a monogamous committed relationship. 

"Slipped up" did come across very badly.  But I think he was just trying to give her an excuse, if she wanted one.

[LuvMyShows]

3 hours ago, Just Carol said:

"Slipped up" did come across very badly.  But I think he was just trying to give her an excuse, if she wanted one.

The person he was trying to give an excuse to was himself, so that it would be OK for him to abandon one set of his Christian principles (staying pure) in the guise of another (forgiveness). 

[LuvMyShows]

OK, I really don't want this to be true, but in the back of my mind I have a nagging thought that the big drama that CH is talking about for ATFR is that Luke and Hannah end up together, and all this SM sniping is just a fake-out.  The main reason that I think that, is that back when they had that weird clip-show in the middle of the season (which they tried to make seem like it had actually been filmed during the same timeframe that they had filmed the country they were in, even though it took place back at the mansion and Hannah looked heavier), they asked her who the best kisser was.  And she smiled and sort of reluctantly said Luke.  That just makes me think that he is the one that she ultimately ends up with (if not, it sure sucks for whoever she did end up with!).

[Just Carol]

1 hour ago, LuvMyShows said:

OK, I really don't want this to be true, but in the back of my mind I have a nagging thought that the big drama that CH is talking about for ATFR is that Luke and Hannah end up together, and all this SM sniping is just a fake-out.  The main reason that I think that, is that back when they had that weird clip-show in the middle of the season (which they tried to make seem like it had actually been filmed during the same timeframe that they had filmed the country they were in, even though it took place back at the mansion and Hannah looked heavier), they asked her who the best kisser was.  And she smiled and sort of reluctantly said Luke.  That just makes me think that he is the one that she ultimately ends up with (if not, it sure sucks for whoever she did end up with!).

It might be in the spoiler thread, which I have successfully avoided, but I wonder if Hannah did not make a decision, or if her decision changed after Greece.  To your point, that weird clip show in the mansion--Hannah did not look well, nor happy.  She looked stressed, as if things were not resolved to her satisfaction.  Indeed, CH said in interviews that he did not know what was going to happen in ATFR.  (Drama, though, and he was careful to hide his smile when he said it.)

[RealHousewife]

I fully agree both Hannah and Luke have growing up to do, and Luke should have tried looking for a wife with his values at church. 

My annoyance overall is due to how he was picked apart for everything he said and did, nobody tried to see where he was coming from, but Hannah was portrayed as some kind of angel. 

[Crs97]

If Luke had not lied to and about the other men and screamed at them in a threatening manner, then I think he would be getting better treatment.  None of the men liked him, and they could all point to specific things he did to justify their dislike.  As a Christian, I cringe to think he was putting himself out so vocally as a role model.  It’s kinda like the story about the cop pulling over a car after the driver kept hitting the horn and screaming and shooting the finger at other cars on the road.  When the driver asked what the problem was, the cop replied, “When I saw your behavior and noticed all the Christian peace and love bumper stickers, I just assumed the car had been stolen.”

[waving feather]

Well, Christians are imperfect like anyone else. That's WHY we need saving lol! Luke is a very young and immature Christian at best. He doesn't really have a clue what he is doing but at least he is earnest? I still can't tell if he meant to say some of the triggering and abusive words he uses on people. If he is doing it on purpose then it is a bigger issue. But if he really wants to improve himself, he needs to go through counselling to help himself discover what he has been doing and how he is affecting others around him by his words and actions.

As for Hannah, the only way she can improve herself is to get over her insecurities. Her insecurities, imo, give her a hard shell and be demanding of others. She is always trying to convince herself and others she is worthy. Hope it comes a day when she doesn't have to try so hard and she believes it naturally. 

All in all, it has been an interesting season with interesting discussion on the forums. It was a train wreck sometimes but at least it wasn't boring! And that's the minimum I ask from my reality TV - to not be boring. I guess the Bachelor TPTP succeeded this season because they were able to bring the drama. Can't wait to see what goes down in the finale.