The Comics: Same, Yet Different

[diebartdie]

why torsos though? Why not just heads? They would be like biting caltrops!

[kj4ever]

It would be great, except when you think of (as with any security measure) does it let you escape in case of fire or Governor's tank blasting or what have you.

Need a zipline.

I would have ziplines everywhere....and tree houses...and tree house showers, bathrooms, bedrooms...I would never touch the Earth again!

[kikismom]

I would have ziplines everywhere....and tree houses...and tree house showers, bathrooms, bedrooms...I would never touch the Earth again!

* sighs * That would be my dream. I would so rather have a treehouse than one of those ASZ  bore-boxes.

[Nashville]

It would be great, except when you think of (as with any security measure) does it let you escape in case of fire or Governor's tank blasting or what have you.

Need a zipline.

 

Same as a minefield - asymmetrical arrangement, and only you/yours have the map to the layout.

 

why torsos though? Why not just heads? They would be like biting caltrops!

 

*I* dunno - more to jam on a stake, maybe?

[kikismom]

Same as a minefield - asymmetrical arrangement, and only you/yours have the map to the layout.

 

 

*I* dunno - more to jam on a stake, maybe?

Oh, I see that in my head as some old-school video game. With Eugene having to make it to safety. Kinda like Frogger.

[Nashville]

Oh, I see that in my head as some old-school video game. With Eugene having to make it to safety. Kinda like Frogger.

Bingo. No more callers, please - we have a winner.

[BrokenRemote]

I have no memory of that, but it sounds like something I shouldn't be able to forget. ??

First of all why are these always described as shock tactics?

Saw that before, about people dying as a shock tactic, people hooking up as a shock tactic?

It's the end of the world, it isn't a shock tactic for lots of people to be dead. Those still alive to be likely to die at any moment. It's not shocking in an apocalypse, it's business as usual.

And who had sex as a shock tactic? People who are couples have sex. If two mutually attracted adults spend fun-time picking up Marines on Dupont Circle and painting clown faces on them for free but they get to keep their teeth---now that would be absolutely stunning.

Good thing our avoidance of watching our favorite characters tarnished by anything less than pure, monogamous true-love sex hasn't been noted over the years by the writers of Sex and The City, Two and a Half Men, pretty much everything on the CW network, and all soap operas for decades. At least I only mentioned a few fictional characters and not contestants on reality shows or we'd have nothing to watch at all.

We're also lucky that Exciting Peoples From Foreign Lands enjoy rolling their eyes at this predictable violence-good, sex-bad American Television Fact; it must be why so many American TV series are bought by overseas broadcasters and get such high ratings.Combined with overseas sales of box sets, it brings in multi-millions. From people who apparently buy American tv series to dismiss because it's such shit.

I think there is a difference between a theme and a point.

So I see what you're saying (although what I'm saying has been a popular topic of research for some time both in the US and overseas) but I'm curious what you (anyone) think is the reason this particular audience is ok with the really violent gory stuff, but is so upset at the thought of adultery? And also why the writers have chosen to leave situations like Tyrese cheating on Carol (Karen) with Michonne out of the show, why Michonne is so different sexually on TV vs the comic and why they've toned down the sex in general? Did it just not work out with the other changes, was it deliberate? Will they go there with Abe "cheating" on Rosita?

[kikismom]

Maybe TPTB know how much money there is in action figures, and a Daryl Killing Walker With His Crossbow or Michonne Killing Walker With Katana is better for the merchandising dept. than trying to sell Carol Blowing Tyreese In A Prison Cell.

[mandolin]

Maybe there are ways to know what storylines "worked" in the comics and what didn't. Nielsens for comics I guess. And those stories were flops.

Doesn't answer your question of why the audience might be ok with violence and not sex, just maybe why they kept certain stories.

Or, what kikismom said.

[kj4ever]

Maybe there are ways to know what storylines "worked" in the comics and what didn't. Nielsens for comics I guess. And those stories were flops.

Doesn't answer your question of why the audience might be ok with violence and not sex, just maybe why they kept certain stories.

Or, what kikismom said.

It is weird that pretty much ALL the sex is cut out.  I mean is it realistic that the only one from CDB that has been laid since the farm is Glenn?

[mandolin]

Could AMC have certain rules regarding that?

[Pete Martell]

I don't think AMC has rules on it (there were fairly graphic scenes for Rosita/Abraham and Shane/Lori), as much as TPTB likely know the intense backlash Andrea and Lori garnered for sex scenes and being sexual, making it something they're less likely to repeat. That and the dynamics of the group have rarely been conducive to sex - Michonne is a very sexual character in the comics but the circumstances (injury, escape from Woodbury) and group of the time (the only man who wasn't a racist, a grieving widower, or an old man was Daryl, and many fans would have torn her apart if she'd slept with Daryl) meant she was celibate. They could have paired her with Tyreese in season 4 but they went with the Karen grieving story instead.

 

And not much has changed since that time. Instead of an Andrea or a comic Michonne as a lead female, you have/had a Carol (never really presented in terms of sexuality, even though MMB is a sexy lady), show Michonne, Rosita (supporting character tied to Abraham), Sasha (involved with Bob but their relationship was never about grand passion), Tara (lesbian), Beth (sweet ingenue), and Maggie (LTR with Glenn that is rarely about showing hot sex scenes).

 

I guess that's why many women they bring in short-term get some of this type of role (like Lilly Chambler, or Karen, or perhaps Jessie). 

Edited March 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[kikismom]

 and many fans would have torn her apart if she'd slept with DaryI 

Why would many fans have torn her apart if she'd slept with Daryl? Not for a racial issue---many fans have been tearing Jessie apart when she has not even slept with

Rick---and they're both white.

Were you meaning the Beth/TV character thing?

[Pete Martell]

Why would many fans have torn her apart if she'd slept with Daryl? Not for a racial issue---many fans have been tearing Jessie apart when she has not even slept with

Rick---and they're both white.

Were you meaning the Beth/TV character thing?

 

A racial issue would have been part of it. When Daryl and Michonne flirted in an episode or two in season 4, there were racial slurs thrown around on Twitter.

 

Many fans are extremely protective of Daryl - this was probably at a peak in season 3 (the peak of the "If Daryl dies we riot" era). Any woman who was not well-known by viewers and not seen as pure and good would get a bad time, and even a woman who was well-known might have had a bad time. Add in that many fans felt (and still feel) he should only be with Carol (and she'd nearly died around the time Michonne arrived, so he would have been screwing Michonne near the same time Carol was dehydrated and weakened), that Daryl had never been presented as being all that interested in sex, and that many fans in season 3 just dismissed Michonne as sullen (to the point where some even insisted the show had to follow through with raping her or viewers would never sympathize with her or care about her), and I can't see it ending well.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[BrokenRemote]

It is weird that pretty much ALL the sex is cut out.  I mean is it realistic that the only one from CDB that has been laid since the farm is Glenn?

 

That's what's weird to me.  If people liked the sex/relationships/whatever in all those TV shows kikismom mentioned, why do they seem to hate it so much on The Walking Dead?  And we know they do: Andrea was a slut, Lori was a whore.  Rick's a disgusting monster and Jessie should just die and go away for tempting him.  By now in the comics, Michonne's had a few flings.  It's weird that none of that crossed over.  Kirkman keeps saying they're following the comics more closely than ever.  And then there's the already established couples--after a scene or two establishing that they're together, we now barely even see Maggie and Glenn, or Abe and Rosita, in the same room, let along talking or holding hands or kissing.  Are TPTB really too scared to bring over that element of the comics?  To me, the quote above from Michonne seems so fitting. It's a new world, and morality is an entirely different animal.  I'd personally like to see morality evolving not just with regards to who you kill.  It's a human thing.

[Bongo Fury]

I just got current with the comic and was happy to see that Carl got his cherry popped. I was wondering though, with Chandler Riggs aging so much quicker than comics Carl, have they moved the Carl love story forward and is Enid his girl?

[kj4ever]

Why would many fans have torn her apart if she'd slept with Daryl? Not for a racial issue---many fans have been tearing Jessie apart when she has not even slept with

Rick---and they're both white.

Were you meaning the Beth/TV character thing?

Some people will see everything as a race issue no matter what. I think Carol fans might have been upset, but they were upset with Beth and she's you know, blonde and white.  The rabid shippers will find fault no matter what color they are.  Hell Jessie was taking Michonne's whole storyline just because she gave Rick a haircut.

 

Just hand wave the crazies...

[kikismom]

I sure hope they have protected Chandler Riggs from reading some sites. Like fanfic.

 

Just for comparison, I know we are somewhat around the issue 75 of the comic. But they have switched so much. How long did it take Kirkman to get to 75 issues?

(And, no, the answer is probably not "it took 74 previous issues")

I mean, how many years?

[Pete Martell]

Some people will see everything as a race issue no matter what. I think Carol fans might have been upset, but they were upset with Beth and she's you know, blonde and white.  The rabid shippers will find fault no matter what color they are.  Hell Jessie was taking Michonne's whole storyline just because she gave Rick a haircut.

 

Just hand wave the crazies...

 

It's not so much about "seeing" a race issue when there are racial slurs thrown around because of a mild flirtation. That tends to mean it was an actual issue.

 

I'm not sure if you mean people who claim that there is racism are crazy, or that people who make racist comments are crazy and should be ignored, but it was a factor in how some fans reacted to Michonne and Daryl. That's separate from people who objected to Beth/Daryl, or Rick/Jessie, or the Daryl/Andrea flirtation in season 2, because Michonne isn't like those women. I don't think anyone is saying that people only object to pairings with a black woman and a white man (or a black man and a white woman). It's just that when they do, it can involve racial slurs, and it did with Daryl and Michonne.

[kj4ever]

I sure hope they have protected Chandler Riggs from reading some sites. Like fanfic.

 

Just for comparison, I know we are somewhat around the issue 75 of the comic. But they have switched so much. How long did it take Kirkman to get to 75 issues?

(And, no, the answer is probably not "it took 74 previous issues")

I mean, how many years?

The first issue came out in 2003, and 74 came out in 2010 so roughly 7 years?

 

It's not so much about "seeing" a race issue when there are racial slurs thrown around because of a mild flirtation. That tends to mean it was an actual issue.

 

I'm not sure if you mean people who claim that there is racism are crazy, or that people who make racist comments are crazy and should be ignored, but it was a factor in how some fans reacted to Michonne and Daryl. That's separate from people who objected to Beth/Daryl, or Rick/Jessie, or the Daryl/Andrea flirtation in season 2, because Michonne isn't like those women. I don't think anyone is saying that people only object to pairings with a black woman and a white man (or a black man and a white woman). It's just that when they do, it can involve racial slurs, and it did with Daryl and Michonne.

And with Beth and Carol and Jessie they were called sluts and whores and everything else you can think of, which is pretty terrible in itself.  Something demeaning is demeaning, no?

 

I meant to ignore crazy ass shippers who say hateful things just because their character isn't hooking up with who they want, whether it be a racial slur or something that lessens a woman to a sex toy.

[Pete Martell]

 And then there's the already established couples--after a scene or two establishing that they're together, we now barely even see Maggie and Glenn, or Abe and Rosita, in the same room, let along talking or holding hands or kissing.  Are TPTB really too scared to bring over that element of the comics? 

 

I don't think they've shied away from that much with Abraham and Rosita - I'm not sure how graphic they got in the comics, but we saw them having sex, and at other times there was a clear intimacy between them in dialogue. I think in their case it's mostly that we have barely seen the characters outside of group settings.

 

With Glenn and Maggie, we tend to get at least one post-coitus scene or scene laying beside each other talking per season. It's just that when we do get those scenes, the response is often that they have no chemistry or they aren't passionate enough. 

 

I think there's a certain expectation in comics today of a lot of sex that someone must have decided didn't translate well to TV. In comics there's more time for private moments (with sex being a part of private moments), whereas the show has less room to explore and less time (pages) to fill, meaning more group scenes and more scenes to advance plot.

And with Beth and Carol and Jessie they were called sluts and whores and everything else you can think of, which is pretty terrible in itself.  Something demeaning is demeaning, no?

 

I meant to ignore crazy ass shippers who say hateful things just because their character isn't hooking up with who they want, whether it be a racial slur or something that lessens a woman to a sex toy.

 

Definitely. The reason I brought up race is because I do think it's one of the reasons the show never went with Michonne/Daryl. They did flirt last season (or some of us took it as flirting), and Norman Reedus seemed to really like the idea, so I wondered if they were testing the waters, but it never happened.

 

I don't mean to say that racism should be criticized and sexism or misogynist slurs shouldn't. It's all wrong and toxic. I only brought it up because I think it was a factor in why Daryl/Michonne never happened.

 

Sorry if I seemed to suggest misogyny isn't a big deal.

[kj4ever]

I don't think they've shied away from that much with Abraham and Rosita - I'm not sure how graphic they got in the comics, but we saw them having sex, and at other times there was a clear intimacy between them in dialogue. I think in their case it's mostly that we have barely seen the characters outside of group settings.

 

With Glenn and Maggie, we tend to get at least one post-coitus scene or scene laying beside each other talking per season. It's just that when we do get those scenes, the response is often that they have no chemistry or they aren't passionate enough. 

 

I think there's a certain expectation in comics today of a lot of sex that someone must have decided didn't translate well to TV. In comics there's more time for private moments (with sex being a part of private moments), whereas the show has less room to explore and less time (pages) to fill, meaning more group scenes and more scenes to advance plot.

 

Definitely. The reason I brought up race is because I do think it's one of the reasons the show never went with Michonne/Daryl. They did flirt last season (or some of us took it as flirting), and Norman Reedus seemed to really like the idea, so I wondered if they were testing the waters, but it never happened.

 

I don't mean to say that racism should be criticized and sexism or misogynist slurs shouldn't. It's all wrong and toxic. I only brought it up because I think it was a factor in why Daryl/Michonne never happened.

 

Sorry if I seemed to suggest misogyny isn't a big deal.

I still have hope for Michonne/Daryl....lol  Could you imagine the child they could produce?

[Pete Martell]

I've warmed to them more over time - I wouldn't mind seeing the show try it (and she can use her katana to cut his hair).

[kikismom]

That's what's weird to me.  If people liked the sex/relationships/whatever in all those TV shows kikismom mentioned, why do they seem to hate it so much on The Walking Dead?  And we know they do: Andrea was a slut, Lori was a whore.  Rick's a disgusting monster and Jessie should just die and go away for tempting him.  By now in the comics, Michonne's had a few flings.  It's weird that none of that crossed over. 

 

For one thing, the people who watch the shows I mentioned are not the viewers that AMC is concerned about.

Kirkman I'm sure would have been open to the idea but whenever you have a really good book or movie the producers water it down to get a pg rating for a movie or an earlier slot for a tv show plus parents who will pay for the squillions of $ of plastic crap.

They've done it over and over.

Young kids don't watch Sex and The City but they watch the Walking Dead to the point that even the cast has been unnerved by 5 year olds watching it now. Don't ask me why their parents let them, I'm not the parent, but money is important factor here.

 

BTW, Kirkman has admitted that he maybe sold 10,000 copies of each issue of TWD comic. Now 12 to 17 million watch each episode.

Yeah, that makes a difference in what audience you get---comics get post adolescent fanboys living in their parents basement.

You can write all the sex scenes you want for them.

15 million varied tv viewers you are going to piss some people off no matter what you do.

You forget how many people hate a "talking" scene and think it should all be heads sliced off for 40 minutes.

 

 Any woman who was not well-known by viewers and not seen as pure and good would get a bad time, and even a woman who was well-known might have had a bad time. Add in that many fans felt (and still feel) he should only be with Carol,... that Daryl had never been presented as being all that interested in sex, and that many fans in season 3 just dismissed Michonne as sullen (to the point where some even insisted the show had to follow through with raping her or viewers would never sympathize with her or care about her)

That is interesting because many viewers think any woman who is not pure and good should not be with Rick,

many fans felt (and still feel) that he should only be with Michonne,

that Rick has not been presented all these years as being all that interested in sex,

and many fans just dismiss Jessie as bland or worthless or "undeserving" (to the point where some even insist she be killed, stabbed in the face, etc. or viewers will never sympathize with her or care about her).

 

 

I'm not sure if you mean people who claim that there is racism are crazy, or that people who make racist comments are crazy and should be ignored, but it was a factor in how some fans reacted to Michonne and Daryl. That's separate from people who objected to Beth/Daryl, or Rick/Jessie, or the Daryl/Andrea flirtation in season 2, because Michonne isn't like those women. I don't think anyone is saying that people only object to pairings with a black woman and a white man (or a black man and a white woman). It's just that when they do, it can involve racial slurs, and it did with Daryl and Michonne.

To jump in on somebody else's post your response was for, there definitely is racism. Your post is saying that it is different with Michonne and Daryl and separate from Rick/Jessie because Michonne isn't like those women.

I'm sure it is different. But as far as Michonne being different I guess the difference you mean is her race? Or something else you meant?

 

I don't think racists only object to a black woman/white man, ore a black man and a white woman. 

Sometimes it is not that the races are different but that the races are the same and that is not what viewers wanted and therefore two people of the same race hooking up can mean one will get racial slurs not because she's a different race but because she is not the race of the person they wanted.

Either way, it's so screwed; why can't people think of characters as INDIVIDUALS? They are not there to represent everyone of their race gender nationality age group sexual orientation and it is a pain in the ass when the characters are burdened with that.

 

The reason I brought up race is because I do think it's one of the reasons the show never went with Michonne/Daryl. They did flirt last season (or some of us took it as flirting), and Norman Reedus seemed to really like the idea, so I wondered if they were testing the waters, but it never happened.

 

I don't mean to say that racism should be criticized and sexism or misogynist slurs shouldn't. It's all wrong and toxic. I only brought it up because I think it was a factor in why Daryl/Michonne never happened.

 

Sorry if I seemed to suggest misogyny isn't a big deal.

I liked the Daryl/MIchonne stuff and to me it seemed more organic and natural chemistry. Plus, they had just enough separation in their daily lives to not be over-familiar with each other like family. A little mystery and chance to be intrigued with each other.

It may have been shot down for fear of racist backlash; but being cynical myself I think it would have actually happened on this show easily if they had just met sooner!

Before TPTB decided that Daryl was pin-up boy and must not be attached to anyone black, white, straight, gay because keeping him single keeps him a fantasy figure.

Worst shit they ever did because that also led to his woobieism---that wasn't about racism but it happened at the same time.the Michonne possibility disappeared.

He lost his mouthy antagonistic freak flag so he was more "accessible.". Crap.

[Nashville]

That's what's weird to me.  If people liked the sex/relationships/whatever in all those TV shows kikismom mentioned, why do they seem to hate it so much on The Walking Dead?  And we know they do: Andrea was a slut, Lori was a whore.  

Have to take issue here. I hated the characters Andrea and Lori not because they were sexually active females, but because they were idiots with delusions of grandeur. My issue was with their rotten pea brains, not their vaginas.

[kj4ever]

Have to take issue here. I hated the characters Andrea and Lori not because they were sexually active females, but because they were idiots with delusions of grandeur. My issue was with their rotten pea brains, not their vaginas.

Exactly...I didn't hate Andrea because she was having SEX with the Governor....I hated Andrea because she was having sex with THE GOVERNOR.

 

On a side note to what Kiki said....A guy I work with was bitching about Noah's scene because it was to violent for his kids.  I was like dude, why are you letting your kids watch this?  My 9 year old self could have easily watched this, but kids now?  Nope, they are to protected.

Edited March 26, 2015 by kj4ever

[Watcher0363]

I truly believe if Frank Darabont was still running things there would be much more sex. After all the first two season scripts were under his watch. There we got Shane Lori sex, Rick Lori sex, Maggie Glen sex, Shane Andrea sex. To be honest I think TWD caught AMC off guard. I am sure they expected to make money off the show, but when it blew up big, the powers that be, reaccessed their plans. I am over 50 and I have never seen an in production TV show rerun as much as TWD. They must be making a fortune. So I could see why they would try to stay away from anything that would alienate anyone.

 

One thing I would like to know is what are the measuring metrics for social media. Such as one complaint by age group X, represents how many people in that age group. Cause to be honest I am not too much into Michonne's face, but her body is over the top fine. If McDreamy and David Caruso can show us their naked butt. We should be allowed to see Michonne's naked but.

 

Hell when they got to the ASZ, I think, if they would have shown each person showering it would have sent the rating's through the roof. Showing Tara, Rosita, Maggie washing their hair with shampoo in god knows how long. Showing their faces as warm water hits their faces, camera following the dirt as it washes down their backs, butts and legs. Instead what do we get Michonne geeking out over clean teeth. Oh yeah showering Rick.

[Watcher0363]

Exactly...I didn't hate Andrea because she was having SEX with the Governor....I hated Andrea because she was having sex with THE GOVERNOR.

 

On a side note to what Kiki said....A guy I work with was bitching about Noah's scene because it was to violent for his kids.  I was like dude, why are you letting your kids watch this?  My 9 year old self could have easily watched this, but kids now?  Nope, they are to protected.

I think you hit on why so little sex. Children are watching. You do not have to explain killing to kids. But kids seeing sex, well that means the parents have to talk about sex. Who wants to talk about sex with their 9 year old. Especially if the sex they just seen on tv was two people really enjoying themselves. 

[mandolin]

Every time I see a kid at a comic con or whatever dressed as Daryl or professing to love a certain character, I'm amazed. I guess I shouldn't be. I'd never let my kids watch this show! Eta: but I know when one of mine was in first grade, she said classmates talked about it.

On the other hand, I think it's ludicrous for them to tame the show because of that. It's a 9pm show on pay cable. FOR ADULTS!

Edited March 26, 2015 by mandolin

[JackONeill]

I personally think they don't go the sex route (and they have with some memorable scenes) because they know they can't do much with a sex scene other than show it happening, but without the actively used body parts.  Whereas, they show heads being lopped off and stomachs being ripped open. The "fun stuff" (at least for some people).

Personally, I want a well-written script with great characters (I'm still waiting, TPTB)(just kidding)(somewhat).  I don't sex or over-the-top violence.  I'm not a prude, but I know on AMC sex will be . . . well, limited. Sure, an occasional reference to it wouldn't be unacceptable. They are human, after all..

Edited March 26, 2015 by JackONeill

[mandolin]

On another note, anyone see the comic (or read the wiki recap) that came out yesterday? :P Finally some Michonne again.

[kikismom]

On another note, anyone see the comic (or read the wiki recap) that came out yesterday? :P Finally some Michonne again.

the photo recap? do you have the link?

[mandolin]

The summary of issue 139, not the reddit thing for the show:

http://spoilthedead.com/forum/showthread.php/18129-Issue-139-Full-Spoilers

[BrokenRemote]

I think I have to take issue with comics readers being post-adolescent fanboys in their parents' basements. A lot of us here are comic readers. I don't even have a basement! :)

Edited March 26, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[mandolin]

Me either! Nor am I a boy of any type.

[kikismom]

I think I have to take issue with comics readers being post-adolescent fanboys in their parents' basements. A lot of us here are comic readers. I don't even have a basement! :)

I am genuinely sorry. I didn't mean everyone but I sure wrote it bad.

 

I think I really mean that, say, a bazillion people watched Star Wars movies but there's a sub-group that renovates their house to look like the interior of the Millenium Falcon----know what I mean? They would buy a special issue on Admiral Akbar....but if you made a 2 hour, $170 million movie about Admiral Akbar...the studio (or the conglomerate that owns it) would buy the rights. remove the human sex with aliens scenes, add song by Justin Beiber. Because when you go to a wide audience you don't want to make it appealing only to die-hards. A small group can support a comic. Expensive productions on screen have to allow for wider spectrum of tastes.

My apologies.

[mandolin]

I didn't even realize that was a response to what you said, kikismom. I must've blown right past that comment. Now, if you read the comics section on the "spoil the dead" site, you will get some interesting comments. Like, how sexy Michonne (yes, the pencil drawing) is in the latest issue, and wondering if she had some enhancements over the recent time jump. Eh?

 

I do think the comics audience has grown some, maybe because of the show, or maybe because comics are more popular overall. (I have read some of The Dark Tower graphics novels, but I apparently only read comics that I have a connection to some other medium of the same universe.)

 

As an aside, we are Star Wars fans in our house, and read many of the books, but I do not want to see an Ackbar scene like you describe. ;) Nor hear a Beiber song. 

[Pete Martell]

Have to take issue here. I hated the characters Andrea and Lori not because they were sexually active females, but because they were idiots with delusions of grandeur. My issue was with their rotten pea brains, not their vaginas.

 

Not all viewers saw them that way, but many did, enough to help poison the well against them thanks to bad writing in other areas. Lori was considered a prick tease who pitted men against each other, Andrea was dismissed as an easy lay for sleeping with Shane, flirting with Daryl, sleeping with The Governor. And the show choosing to showcase Andrea in a thong, when no man in this show would get that treatment (Rick's shower door was so foggy he may as well have been in an old Sherlock Holmes movie), didn't help with that perception. 

Hell when they got to the ASZ, I think, if they would have shown each person showering it would have sent the rating's through the roof. Showing Tara, Rosita, Maggie washing their hair with shampoo in god knows how long. Showing their faces as warm water hits their faces, camera following the dirt as it washes down their backs, butts and legs. Instead what do we get Michonne geeking out over clean teeth. Oh yeah showering Rick.

 

I think that would have sexualized them to an unnecessary degree. If people were watching for that they probably already got it when Tara and Rosita were laying on the ground in soaked T-shirts.

 

The thing with Darabont's sex scenes is I thought they were all oddly unsexy, and just felt crude, or if not crude, then mostly rote (which I guess some were supposed to be - clearly the Rick and Lori reunion scene wasn't really about sexytimes, since Carl was sleeping nearby). I guess he wanted to just say sex was a part of life, which I respect, but I can't say I miss them.

[BrokenRemote]

Not all viewers saw them that way, but many did, enough to help poison the well against them thanks to bad writing in other areas. Lori was considered a prick tease who pitted men against each other, Andrea was dismissed as an easy lay for sleeping with Shane, flirting with Daryl, sleeping with The Governor. And the show choosing to showcase Andrea in a thong, when no man in this show would get that treatment (Rick's shower door was so foggy he may as well have been in an old Sherlock Holmes movie), didn't help with that perception.

Agreed. It wasn't universal, but it was definitely out there. I had different reasons for my hate as well, a and while I didn't cry at Andrea's death (mostly because I was still yelling "why didn't you try to get free instead of chatting with Milton!?!?!?"), in retrospect I think they could have salvaged her, and I often wish they had

[Pete Martell]

I don't really think they had to kill her either. I don't think she did anything beyond redemption. If Andrea dying meant we got more of the terrific women introduced in season 4 and late season 3, and more of Carol, then I'm not sorry, but I do think she could have been saved. I think Mazarra just used that as a bandaid for the larger failure of the Woodbury/Governor story. 

 

With that said, I don't believe she could have been the comics Andrea, even if she'd survived. I don't think Laurie Holden could sustain being the lead female, and I don't really know if I would have bought her with Rick.

[BrokenRemote]

No, Laurie Holden definitely did not have the acting chops to pull off Comic Book Andrea. At least not all of her. I'm not sad that Sasha's around (although I fear for her leaving lately) and I think Andrea would have probably been put in the sniper role, but it's interesting to think where things might have gone with her.

[Little Dove]

I think Laurie Holden could have pulled it off if her writing/story lines were better. From pretty early on (or perhaps the very beginning, I need to rewatch!) it was just clear that she simply wasn't Comic Andrea and never would be. When Shane was helping her or later when Dale died I thought things would change but they didn't. Then they killed her off, and I always think it was because she couldn't come back from her stupidity. And although at the time I definitely blamed the actress looking back I just think comic Andrea wouldn't have been in those situations, saying those things.

I'm ok with Sasha and the Carol changes. Maybe it means we get two stronger females instead of one. That said, I do worry... Like when Sasha got Michonne's line from the comics and I definitely don't want her to be at all less because of Sacha. Michonne's one of my favourites. And then there's the addition of Daryl which has altered a lot of male leads.

I hadn't thought about the appealing of the masses and that's why there's a lack of sex on the show. I had always wondered about it. I mean it's the end of the world people! This isn't the life where you have unrequited love right?

[Pete Martell]

All the talk about younger viewers watching was on my mind when I was reading the new TWD magazine yesterday and they had an article on the TWD version of Monopoly. It was using comics-style material, not the show. They talked about how they were taking the opportunity to expand with a younger demographic by using this type of format.

 

Obviously the game would be a much cleaner version of TWD than the comics or the show, but still, I did wonder exactly how young they even want those who buy these things to be. I would hope there's some type of cutoff age.

[mandolin]

I saw a recent pic on Norman Reedus's Twitter feed of a little girl who'd drawn a picture of herself and Daryl. I can't comprehend my child knowing anything other than I watch a show called TWD. When I visited Senoia, there were lots of kids touring around, and wearing show merchandise.

The comic is so much more violent and sexual. It really is a "graphic novel" not a comic. I would have that Monopoly version as a collector type item, but I wouldn't play it with my kids for quite a few more years!

I don't appreciate the show trying to bring in new too-young viewers/fans, but I'd hope parents would really exercise common sense.

[Raachel2008]

Bullshit, just bullshit.

 

99% of the shows out there have sex scenes, either rahter explicit or 'strategically placed sheets 'or just aluded to. TWD had almost none in the past three seasons and it is simply unbelievable - and rather puritane in that reverse way where it is okay to show a child being killed cold bood (Carol and Lizzie), a child almost being raped (Carl and those white trash folks), legs and arms being amputated with any tool at hand, gore, canibalism, babies in danger, mentions of past rape and abuse.

 

But consensual sex between adults? AS IF.

 

In this show being horny became the biggest taboo ever, and  I kinda of think that all those folks in charge were never prepared to deal with fan interaction. I mean, was anyone really surprised that some called Andrea a whore? That's 'fandom' standard reaction to women haveinga  normal sexual life, while Shane was never called a man slut was him? But Kirkman and CO probably never expected that and just gave up on all sex - unless, of couse, the implication is rape - like Gareth's mother in the Teminus flashback.

 

Richonne will never happen, because they are too scared of normal, heathy sex. Never mind sex between a white guy and a black woman.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Raachel2008

[kj4ever]

Bullshit, just bullshit.

 

99% of the shows out there have sex scenes, either rahter explicit or 'strategically placed sheets 'or just aluded to. TWD had almost none in the past three seasons and it is simply unbelievable - and rather puritane in that reverse way where it is okay to show a child being killed cold bood (Carol and Lizzie), a child almost being raped (Carl and those white trash folks), legs and arms being amputated with any tool at hand, gore, canibalism, babies in danger, mentions of past rape and abuse.

 

But consensual sex between adults? AS IF.

 

In this show being horny became the biggest taboo ever, and  I kinda of think that all those folks in charge were never prepared to deal with fan interaction. I mean, was anyone really surprised that some called Andrea a whore? That's 'fandom' standard reaction to women haveinga  normal sexual life, while Shane was never called a man slut was him? But Kirkman and CO probably never expected that and just gave up on all sex - unless, of couse, the implication is rape - like Gareth's mother in the Teminus flashback.

 

Richonne will never happen, because they are too scared of normal, heathy sex. Never mind sex between a white guy and a black woman.

Isn't one of the top rate shows on TV about a white dude having sex with a black woman?  Oh, a little show called Scandal?  Seriously, I don't understand why people think we are still in 1950.

 

I do agree though that the lack of sex is absurd.  While they are on the road?  That I can see because they can't even sleep much less find a place safe away from the group to knock boots.  But when they were in the prison?  Now that they are in Alexandria?  Nope, everyone would be going at it like rabbits.

 

A guy I work with lets his kids watch, and I think the youngest is 9.  He said they finally caved because all the other kids at school were watching it and his kids were driving them crazy about it.  He was pissed off about the Abe/Rosita scene, and I pointed out his kids aren't the target audience and there is a warning.  He totally hand waved it and said they KNOW kids are watching.  Sense made = zero.

 

Although I admit my parents totally would have let me watch this...lol

[kikismom]

Bullshit, just bullshit.

 

99% of the shows out there have sex scenes, either rahter explicit or 'strategically placed sheets 'or just aluded to. TWD had almost none in the past three seasons and it is simply unbelievable - and rather puritane in that reverse way where it is okay to show a child being killed cold bood (Carol and Lizzie), a child almost being raped (Carl and those white trash folks), legs and arms being amputated with any tool at hand, gore, canibalism, babies in danger, mentions of past rape and abuse.

 

But consensual sex between adults? AS IF.

 

In this show being horny became the biggest taboo ever, and  I kinda of think that all those folks in charge were never prepared to deal with fan interaction. I mean, was anyone really surprised that some called Andrea a whore? That's 'fandom' standard reaction to women haveinga  normal sexual life, while Shane was never called a man slut was him? But Kirkman and CO probably never expected that and just gave up on all sex - unless, of couse, the implication is rape - like Gareth's mother in the Teminus flashback.

 

Richonne will never happen, because they are too scared of normal, heathy sex. Never mind sex between a white guy and a black woman.

"Richonne will never happen because they are too scared of normal healthy sex."

I'm not sure if that means Glaggie has been happening for 4 seasons because they have abnormal, unhealthy sex, or because Richonne can't be a couple like Glenn and Maggie are because with Richonne the actual sex act must be shown more often than with Glenn and Maggie.

 

99% of the shows out there that have sex---- either explicit or strategically placed sheets, or just alluded to---are shows where characters are able to continue personal hygiene and contraception.

They also don't sleep with 14 other people, in barns or on the side of the road or in storage pods.

The cast members have talked about how gross the personal cleanliness issue was, and the lack of privacy. I suppose we can exclude the characters of Rosita and Abraham. Who do it right in front of everyone.But most of the other characters seem to have a little remaining self-respect.

If the 99% of other shows had characters that their viewers knew go for months at a time without toilet paper or soap, those show would not titillate people but be a joke.

Now CDB have showers---but live together in homes provided by someone who videotapes people, has people listened to with parabolic mics, while people are fighting, spying, sabotaging, stealing ...I guess they might be a little wary.

 

But maybe Richonne won't happen because it is made up by fans; just like Bethyl was invented by fans and Caryl was invented by fans. None of those imaginary relationships were ever part of the story. The story has been good enough to make it the top cable drama and will be on for at least 6 seasons. That was all achieved without having to shoehorn fanfiction fanservice to keep people watching.  That is what we can know for sure.

Edited March 31, 2015 by kikismom

[Nashville]

"Richonne will never happen because they are too scared of normal healthy sex."

I'm not sure if that means Glaggie has been happening for 4 seasons because they have abnormal, unhealthy sex, or because Richonne can't be a couple like Glenn and Maggie are because with Richonne the actual sex act must be shown more often than with Glenn and Maggie.

 

So - Glen's hooking the suspension harness to the chandelier while Maggie breaks out the Cool-Whip and pickles? I can work with that.

99% of the shows out there that have sex---- either explicit or strategically placed sheets, or just alluded to---are shows where characters are able to continue personal hygiene and contraception.

They also don't sleep with 14 other people, in barns or on the side of the road or in storage pods.

The cast members have talked about how gross the personal cleanliness issue was, and the lack of privacy. I suppose we can exclude the characters of Rosita and Abraham. Who do it right in front of everyone.But most of the other characters seem to have a little remaining self-respect.

If the 99% of other shows had characters that their viewers knew go for months at a time without toilet paper or soap, those show would not titillate people but be a joke.

Now CDB have showers---but live together in homes provided by someone who videotapes people, has people listened to with parabolic mics, while people are fighting, spying, sabotaging, stealing ...I guess they might be a little wary.

 

But maybe Richonne won't happen because it is made up by fans; just like Bethyl was invented by fans and Caryl was invented by fans. None of those imaginary relationships were ever part of the story. The story has been good enough to make it the top cable drama and will be on for at least 6 seasons. That was all achieved without having to shoehorn fanfiction fanservice to keep people watching.  That is what we can know for sure.

+10,000 points

[kj4ever]

So - Glen's hooking the suspension harness to the chandelier while Maggie breaks out the Cool-Whip and pickles? I can work with that.

+10,000 points

That kind of sex is abnormal? My life has been a lie.

[GreyBunny]

So Glenn and Maggie are unhealthy?  Alrighty, then.

 

Why does Michonne have to hook up with Rick?  He's looney tunes.  Them hooking up because she's the one who can best stabilize him is the very definition of an unhealthy relationship.  She's a person, not a band-aid.

Michonne is too good for him.