Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[stealinghome]

I would much rather Regina follow through with the correct behavior, which she has.

There's a difference between acting better going forward, and admitting you were wrong in the past.

[FavFable]

Your right. One is actually showing you've changed and the other is just talking about it.

Edited July 5, 2014 by FavFable

[stealinghome]

But one also implies that you won't do it again in the future. The other makes no such guarantee.

[KingOfHearts]

My hope for Regina going forward is some distance from the Charming's. I doubt it will happen because of Henry, but I think some distance would help her.

 

 

It wouldn't score many points with Henry if she did that. If Regina wants him back, then she's going to have to be friendly with Emma, Snow and Charming. If Regina considers Henry her happy ending, then that's what she'll have to do.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Your right. One is actually showing you've changed and the other is just talking about it.

The thing is, it's not just that she hasn't apologized to the Charmings.  It's that we've yet to see her have a moment of self-awareness that actually was sincere and stuck that demonstrates she understands that she what she did was wrong..

 

Anything before the end of 3A doesn't count--because at that point she was tied to a tree that could tell if she had any remorse/regret.  She doesn't.  Even the delivery of the "I should" speech--at least to me--sounded like a list of things she was used to being accused of, but didn't really feel connected to. 

 

A great deal of what she's done in 3B was in her own self-interest.  Yes, it helped the Charmings, too, but Zelena's big goal wasn't "Get the Charmings!"  it was "End Regina." 

 

Is she doing things that help the Charmings now?  Yes.  But when a good deal of it is simply because it gets her what she wants anyway, what does it matter?  She's still selfishly all-about-Regina with a tiny side-dish of "Maybe Henry Matters."  That's not "redeemed."  It's not even reformed-adjacent.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

A great deal of what she's done in 3B was in her own self-interest.  Yes, it helped the Charmings, too, but Zelena's big goal wasn't "Get the Charmings!"  it was "End Regina." 

 

They were a couple of small times that Regina made a selfless act. She did save Snow from Cora's ghost, and she also protected Snow's apartment. Those were both before she found out Zelena was trying to oust her from history. Not saying she's a saint, but there was a little progress in 3B. After #EndRegina came up, it was all self-serving from there.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

They were a couple of small times that Regina made a selfless act. She did save Snow from Cora's ghost, and she also protected Snow's apartment. Those were both before she found out Zelena was trying to oust her from history. Not saying she's a saint, but there was a little progress in 3B. After #EndRegina came up, it was all self-serving from there.

True--and I'd like to believe that was sincerely altruistic.  Some mitigating factors?  Snow is one of the few people that Regina can count on to absolutely be on her side, and where Snow goes, so do David and Emma.  Having them end the episode with Regina (and Snow) still blaming Snow for "murdering" Cora, without Regina acknowledging that she'd maybe done some wrong, too?   It didn't leave me with a good feeling.

[KingOfHearts]

Well, there was a time where Regina would have been happy to let Cora kill Snow. There was also a time where Regina would have been happy to kill Snow's baby. (She tried to kill Emma in the pilot) It's not much progress, but just a little.

 

It would have left me with a good feeling if Snow/Regina made up for real that night, but sadly we're stuck with Saint Regina saving the day once again.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

The thing is, it's not just that she hasn't apologized to the Charmings.  It's that we've yet to see her have a moment of self-awareness that actually was sincere and stuck that demonstrates she understands that she what she did was wrong..

Exactly. Here's my thing with Regina: it's great that she is doing things like saving Snow these days, seriously. I'm not saying it's not a sign of growth.

 

The problem is, Regina has gone back on this growth before. Regina looked like she was reforming and getting on the side of the angels in 2A--she was actively helping Charming try to get Snow and Emma back, and even in a twisted way putting that barrier up at the well was protective toward Henry--and then Cora came to town and Regina (off the top of my head) incited the Giant to kill Charming, was an accessory to Johanna's murder, tried to kill all the Charmings when she and Cora were going after the dagger (and what exactly did she think Cora was going to do with the dagger?), was going to cast a spell on Henry that stripped him of his free will, and was planning to kill the entire town with the diamond failsafe. So clearly Regina's actions in 2A didn't indicate real, long-term growth. And then we got 3A Regina, who seemed to be progressing, she had empathy for Tink, she seemed to be warming to the Charmings a little bit...and then we hit No Regrets Regina.

 

So for Regina? Actions actually don't mean all that much--or, rather, they're not truly indicative of any sort of stable, consistent mental/psychological/emotional state. She's very capable of doing the right thing one day and then the absolute wrong thing the next day. So in some respects, perhaps the writers have written a character who can never be counted on to "mean" what she says or does in the long run. (And I blame the writers for that, totally--I think S2 really, really, REALLY hurt Regina as a character.) But I actually find that Regina's words are often just as, or more, indicative of her headspace as her actions are. (I'm thinking particularly of 2A, when she was like "Well, I didn't give a damn if anyone woke up or was hurt...until now, of course," when she added the last part because Henry majorly side-eyed her. That was such a telling moment, I thought. Or just think about her "No Regrets" monologue to Pan even in the middle of a rescue mission, which is theoretically a "good" thing.)

 

So...for me, that's why Regina actually saying she's sorry and she was wrong to the Charmings matters. Because to me, it would indicate that she actually does understand that she was wrong and will try to be different moving forward. That acknowledgment is what I need to really believe that Regina won't ever go evil again, that she doesn't want to be that person anymore. 3x18 got her partway there, to her credit, but Regina still needs to fully go there.

 

Plus, I don't understand the general notion that apologies don't matter. They do. Words matter. I mean, if apologies didn't matter, no one would ever say "I'm sorry"! There is a value to making up for things in your actions, certainly, but words also have a separate value--and a great one. Words matter. And frankly, given all she's done to them, Regina owes the Charmings both sets of apologies. (Also, I might feel differently if I felt like Regina was helping the Charmings specifically because she feels terrible about what she did to them in the past. That, to me, would be Xena-esque--a way to make up for past sins. But that's not the impression I get. Regina, to me, seems like she sees the Charmings as useful allies who she's grown to have some affection for. Her alliance with them still seems rooted in mutual self-interest. I'm not articulating this well, but Regina seems to approach their alliance more like a peace treaty than an "I'm sorry for what I did to you in the past, let me support you now" way.)

Edited July 5, 2014 by stealinghome

[Serena]

Since we were talking about Regina as a ruler/mayor earlier, in this interview Lana says that Regina is a Republican and she watched Sarah Palin speeches to prepare for the role. Make of that what you will.

[Rockybeach]

I think it started in season 2 and continued when she saved Snow and Emma at the well. I think she took several steps back when she sided with Cora. I get why she did it. This was the one person that should have offered her unconditional love and was willing to help her. I think Regina would always give her mother another chance. I really wonder what their relationship would have been like if Cora had kept her heart.

 

I think the actual redemption storyline moved forward at the end of season 2 when Regina was willing to sacrifice her life to save the town. Loved that line "Let me die as Regina."

I agree that the redemption started in season 2 but I think she started to believe in herself at the end of the Neverland Arc. When she used her magic to send everyone back to the EF and gave Emma the fake memories.

Cora would have been an interesting character to have kept around. She was a good villain.

[stealinghome]

Since we were talking about Regina as a ruler/mayor earlier, in this interview Lana says that Regina is a Republican and she watched Sarah Palin speeches to prepare for the role. Make of that what you will.

omfg, that's hilarious!

[Camera One]

She saved Snow twice, more importantly she saved Snow's son. I don't think Regina has to say anything. I think her actions speak louder than words.

 

Yes, action speaks louder than words, but that doesn't let her off the hook for having to say it verbally as well.  After wronging someone, restorative justice includes taking into account the healing of the victim.  And for a lot of victims, having the perpetrator admit they were wrong and to genuinely apologize is a healing step. Regina would need to fully put aside her pride to fully apologize to Snow, and since that is hard for Regina, it would be a "big" thing for her to do, a hard thing, something which requires her to make a sacrifice, albeit a different kind of sacrifice.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I thought Regina's redemptive moment was the end of Going Home, where she finally acknowledged that she was a villain, and sent Emma and Henry away with good memories. But they back-tracked that with the way she's been treating Emma in 3B, and saying that she's never going to let Henry go again (hasn't that always been her problem?), for blaming Eva in addition to Snow for her family's wrong choices, and for the whole Marian thing. I don't think she deserves any special points whenever she acts like a decent human being. If we compare her with Saint Paul from the Bible, he persecuted Christians and was bent on getting them killed until his conversion moment. After that, he called himself the "less than the least of the saints." Most of the Jerusalem Christians were initially wary of him, and he died a martyr. I'm not saying Regina should die a martyr or that she doesn't deserve happiness, but without remorse, and in the face of her continued whining, it's hard for me to believe that she has complete self-awareness. If I had my way, she would not get Robin Hood anymore than Rumple is going to get Neal back. 

Edited July 5, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Amerilla]

Just posted on the Storybrooke Mirror Tumblr: a translation of an interview Lana did with a French magazine:

 

LANA PARRILLA’S INTERVIEW WITH SÉRIES MAG
ladygalaxyj:

She didn’t expect the success of OUAT. She was auditioning for another role when the casting director told her he wanted her to play the Evil Queen. Four days later, she was auditioning for Regina, and that her agent called her saying ‘Hello Regina.’ She thought it was a wrong number at first. But she was still skeptical because she had been in 7 series before and none of them lasted so…

 

The president of ABC looked at her audition tapes because he didn’t think she could play a villain. Lana really wanted to play Regina even if the show didn’t work out.

 

On ‘good’ season 3 Regina: She didn’t know how Regina would turn out in season 1, but she had a feeling the writers would flesh her ouat because a one-dimension character is not very interesting for a whole series, and is boring for an actor to play. 3A Regina is a very protective mother and Lana loves playing her vulnerable side, “her love for Henry, Robin, and even Snow.”

 

On her ‘love’ for Snow: She loves Mary Margaret as much as she hates her. Regina raised her for many years, but Snow was also responsible for taking away her destiny. Same thing goes for Emma — they need to learn to coexist because of Henry. Lana says she tries to give more dept to Regina and the Queen every time she plays her. It makes her more interesting.

 

She hates her 6 inch heels, but she likes that it allows Regina to tower over everyone. She loves her corsets, but she can’t eat when she has them on. She has to stick to drinking, and it’s getting long when she has to wear them for 14 hours.

 

She’s an actor first. She doesn’t decide where the character is going. However, she calls the writers and asks them to explain if she doesn’t understand something. And they’ve taken some of her comments to improve the character. Worst case, if she plays something that she doesn’t really feel and they don’t like it, they it ends on the cutting room floor. “Advantages of television!” She loves where Regina is in season 3. “She’s grown a lot.”

 

On modern movies and TV showing the side of the villains of the story: She thinks it’s a way of showing that, even if you’re evil or do bad things at one point in your life, people change. The world is not black and white; it’s way too complex for that. Everyone can become a better person.

 

On Regina being Queen and mayor without being elected: Regina is a republican, and Lana’s a democrat. She watched some of Sarah Palin’s speeches to prepare the role.

 

 

The highlighted parts are the ones I found most intersting. 

[KingOfHearts]

Good deeds are signs of a good heart, but good deeds don't make a good heart. You can save kittens from trees all day, but unless you change your heart, it doesn't mean anything. Regina still blames Snow and the others for ruining her life. She might do good works and claim she's changed, but until she deals with the core problem, it's all fluff.

 

Doing good isn't about making yourself look like a hero - it's about loving others. Regina might help others in the process, but at the end of the day, it's still about her. It's what's in the heart that truly matters.

 

Her heart is still dark.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

I agree that the redemption started in season 2 but I think she started to believe in herself at the end of the Neverland Arc. When she used her magic to send everyone back to the EF and gave Emma the fake memories.

Cora would have been an interesting character to have kept around. She was a good villain.

Yeah I think OUAT is missing some good villains. I think it was kinda cool that Regina was the only one of the 3 villains that didn't kill someone in season 3. It was nice to see one character follow through on their desire to change. Did you have a favorite episode of season 3? I think mine is probably A Curious Thing. Regina breaking the curse and Regina, Henry and Robin walking out like a family. Hope those 3 continue to share scenes in season 4.

[Rockybeach]

One of my favorites is "It's Not Easy Being Green." Regina going to face Zelena knowing she couldn't win.. That was very brave. I also thought it had the stupidest line of the season. Emma's comment "Fight Me, I'm the Savior." Loved Zelena's response about Ego.

I liked INEBG because it showed the development in Regina and Robin's relationship. It also showed Regina's winning by surviving. It's similar to how she lived her life.

[scarynikki12]

Since we were talking about Regina as a ruler/mayor earlier, in this interview Lana says that Regina is a Republican and she watched Sarah Palin speeches to prepare for the role. Make of that what you will.

No wonder she refuses to take responsibility for her actions and blames everyone else instead.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm not going to touch Lana's comment. I watch this show to get away from reality. Regina's already a very divisive figure, throwing real world politics into a fictional fairytale story is not something I'm at all interested in. 

Edited July 6, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Souris]

I just read that apparently Lana got married today. Not much time for a honeymoon, then!

[stealinghome]

Oh my goodness, congratulations to her!!!! That's wonderful. It's been a hiatus of wedding bells and big changes for the cast!

[FavFable]

One of my favorites is "It's Not Easy Being Green." Regina going to face Zelena knowing she couldn't win.. That was very brave. I also thought it had the stupidest line of the season. Emma's comment "Fight Me, I'm the Savior." Loved Zelena's response about Ego.

I liked INEBG because it showed the development in Regina and Robin's relationship. It also showed Regina's winning by surviving. It's similar to how she lived her life.

Emma has become a character they can shove into any situation because they give her little or no development, so she can change each week.

 

I also loved Bleeding Through. I was surprised at the development between Regina and Belle with Regina's apology. I think it was the first time I really appreciated the history and depth of the relationship between Snow and Regina. I have never been a fan of their scenes together but this episode changed that.

Edited July 6, 2014 by FavFable

[Rockybeach]

I am wondering what happens in season 4. I am sure Snow will side with Emma. I don't think Snow and Regina will go back to fighting. At least I hope they don't. Regina will probably isolate herself. I think the only person she will trust will be Henry.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Rockybeach

[Shanna Marie]

The reason Regina needs to apologize to Snow (and all her other victims) isn't just for their sake because they need to hear it. It's because it's an important part of the process for her. There was an article in the newspaper today about a process they're calling "restorative justice" that's being tried in some prisons, in which the convicts have to meet and listen to their victims (or survivors) and really face the impact they had on these people's lives. They start to see the consequences and learn to take responsibility for their actions, which usually leads to an apology -- a sincere one, not one of those "sorry I got caught and got in trouble" apologies -- and the ones who apologize end up being far less likely to end up back in prison. So, an acknowledgement of the wrongs she's done and an apology are critical for Regina to really move forward. So far, she still seems to be blaming everything on others. Yes, Cora made her life miserable and killed Daniel, and maybe Snow did tip Cora off, but everything since then is entirely on Regina and the choices she's made.

 

One big clue that her mindset hasn't really changed was when she defeated Zelena and had her "I finally got to win" moment in the crypt. She's whined a lot about never getting to win, but by any objective standard, she's won over and over again. She just has a talent for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and ends up sabotaging herself because she's got a skewed idea of what it takes to "win." She doesn't seem to see it as a win when she gets what she wanted unless she's also defeated someone else and got absolutely everything she wanted. She beat her mother and could have lived her own life, but she didn't. She was queen, lived in a castle and had powerful magic but didn't consider that a victory. She had won against Emma and Emma was leaving town, but she destroyed her own curse by not being able to be happy with that, and it all backfired when she tried to curse Emma, cursed Henry instead, and that led to the curse breaking. Heck, even now she's managed to avoid all consequences from her numerous crimes, still has a position of power and still lives in luxury. She's got a better life than most of the people she hates. Until she learns to adjust her definition of "winning," she'll never be happy. And that will require her to have a Come to Jesus moment with herself about how she's ruined her own life. Right now, she seems to be being good because that's the only way to keep the things she wants, not because of any internal change.

[stealinghome]

Also, don't forget that she actually, legitimately won by casting the original Dark Curse--and literally like a week later was still unhappy. So then she went looking for something to make her happy...a baby...got one...and was still unhappy.

[YaddaYadda]

Also, don't forget that she actually, legitimately won by casting the original Dark Curse--and literally like a week later was still unhappy. So then she went looking for something to make her happy...a baby...got one...and was still unhappy.

Well she tried her hand with Owen and his father first. 

[KingOfHearts]

She will never be happy until she changes her heart. When you're evil, you're always craving more, no matter how much you win. Even Maleficent knew her limits and tried to teach Regina to be happy with what she has. Regina has had everything handed to her on a silver platter, yet she's still not content. Until she can love unconditionally without needing circumstances to adjust her feelings all the time, she'll never be happy. That's the hole in her heart Maleficent was talking about, and it's what Rumple has told Regina - you can't have everything. It's either love or revenge, good or evil, hot or cold. 

 

Until Regina commits to appreciating people in her life for who they are instead of what they can get her, she can't experience true love.

Edited July 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Regina is the poster child for the person who is never happy with oneself, and always seeks to find an external cause for it. Even when she first adopted infant Henry and he was crying a lot, she immediately jumped to the conclusion that there was something wrong with him, and "had" to find the genetic causes behind it. Until she stops seeking other people to blame for her unhappiness, she's not going to be able to truly change. However, I don't think Regina will ever fully be able to realize the extent of her horrific actions--how can a person live with oneself after they do? Wouldn't she want to spend her lifetime trying to make restitution for it? The fact that she still has magic, still is the mayor, has Henry back, and has the support of the first Royal Family makes it really difficult for her to see the Light, IMO. It's strange that the writers present her as an underdog character despite the fact that the power differential is slanted in her favor.

[Shanna Marie]

Until Regina commits to appreciating people in her life for who they are instead of what they can get her, she'll always feel paranoid and alienated.

And that's another one of her problems -- she sees people not as people, but as tools to get her what she wants. Under the curse, they were her puppets, but then that didn't make her happy because she wanted someone with free will to love and obey her, but then there's that pesky free will thing and people being so rude as to not want to love and obey a cruel, control-freak bitch. She whined in Neverland to Emma about having nothing but Henry in her life. Well, she had a kind husband and a former genie who loved her, and she manipulated the genie into killing her husband, then betrayed the genie and set him up to take the fall. She had a stepdaughter who adored her, and she tried to have her killed, exiled her, outlawed her, and devoted her life to destroying her. She murdered her father to cast a curse, trapped and tortured her one Enchanted Forest friend by making her stay an imprisoned dragon, and tried to arrange the murder of her one Storybrooke friend in order to frame Mary Margaret. She gaslighted her son and treated him as a pawn in her struggle against Emma, deliberately hurting him in order to score points against Emma.

 

But poor Regina, she's so alone.

[KingOfHearts]

However, I don't think Regina will ever fully be able to realize the extent of her horrific actions--how can a person live with oneself after they do? 

 

I don't want her to understand the whole gravity of her actions, because of the reason you just stated. Just knowing what she did was wrong, confessing it and turning from that would be enough. Redemption is about forgiveness and moving on, not guilt. The first step is conviction, which she needs very badly. Hopefully the Marian situation can tug at her conscience in that regard.

 

I believe no matter how bad a person is, they can be forgiven. Regina is no exception. But forgiveness starts at confession, which is why apologies are definitely a major step.

 

 

But poor Regina, she's so alone.

 

Regina has had so many people warn her about her path. Rumple, Tinkerbell, Snow, Maleficent, her father... why doesn't she get it? One word: writers. They wanted the Evil Queen, so they bulldozed Regina to a pulp to get it. Now they're trying to backtrack it without any recognition of her wrongs. I think the writers and Regina both need some lessons in how redemption works.

Edited July 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

And that's another one of her problems -- she sees people not as people, but as tools to get her what she wants. Under the curse, they were her puppets, but then that didn't make her happy because she wanted someone with free will to love and obey her, but then there's that pesky free will thing and people being so rude as to not want to love and obey a cruel, control-freak bitch.

 

 

 

However, I don't think Regina will ever fully be able to realize the extent of her horrific actions--how can a person live with oneself after they do? Wouldn't she want to spend her lifetime trying to make restitution for it? The fact that she still has magic, still is the mayor, has Henry back, and has the support of the first Royal Family makes it really difficult for her to see the Light, IMO. It's strange that the writers present her as an underdog character despite the fact that the power differential is slanted in her favor.

I've wondered about this.  They've been pretty consistent about writing Regina so that she does not recognize that other people are actually people, too.  She's got that disconnect in her brain (I think they use to call it sociopathic, but the official word has changed, I think and I don't remember what the new one is.)  However, it doesn't seem to get attention from the characters in-show, which means a lot of the more casual viewers might not notice it.

 

At the same time, the show seems to have bought--to a certain extent--into the Regina is a victim mentality. 

 

I can't decide if the writers do not understand what story they're actually telling, or if they're worried about alienating the Regina fanbase.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Mari

[stealinghome]

I actually wonder if part of Regina's problem is that she holds up in her mind her relationship with her father (and/or even Cora's relationship with her father) as "normal" without realizing that those relationships were massively fucked up. Because Regina seems to think that love is, like, someone following your every whim, never disagreeing with you, always bowing to your every desire. The moment someone disagrees with you, or indicates that they want something different from you, or really expresses anything other than "I am totally satisfied with everything you do and would happily be your slave for the rest of my life," she tends to fly off the handle because (to her) they're showing her that they don't love her, they're rejecting her, they like someone else better. (And in fact, there's a really, horrifically creepy way in which Regina really didn't seem to understand that what she had with Graham wasn't a relationship--it was slavery, even if he wasn't aware of it in Storybrooke.) And I wonder how much of that can be put down to, Henry Sr. learned to roll over and play dead so Cora didn't actually kill him, and that transferred over to Regina when Cora went away and Regina started gaining power, and that's Regina's only baseline for human relationships.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina's core problem is fear. She's paranoid. When she lost Daniel, she lost the only hope she had of escaping, thus she cracked. She doesn't accept Snow's kindness because she doesn't trust anyone. In her mind, they'll betray her. Sort of like Emma with Hook, someone willing to stay by her no matter what scares the crap out of her. That's probably why she keeps so much enmity with Snow. Her snark and taunts are a defense mechanism.

 

She's closed her heart off to real love and instead lets in hate and lust. Eventually that causes more pain than what you started with.

Edited July 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

I am wondering what happens in season 4. I am sure Snow will side with Emma. I don't think Snow and Regina will go back to fighting. At least I hope they don't. Regina will probably isolate herself. I think the only person she will trust will be Henry.

I think she will walk at first. I think Robin will be the one to step up and show her that he cares about her. I love the comment about Pixie dust never lies. Regina could have approached Robin years ago, but choose not too. It was an important message in the season finale. I think it took her years to want to change. Before that happened there would be no chance at happiness and love for her. Not sure how involved Henry will be in the storyline. It will be curious to see his reaction. He was not happy when he found out Emma was lying to him about New York and wanting to take him away from his family.

[Aliasscape]

I believe no matter how bad a person is, they can be forgiven. Regina is no exception. But forgiveness starts at confession, which is why apologies are definitely a major step.

 

You answered one of my long held questions for Regina fans. I've been trying to figure out if they all just don't think stuff Regina did was "really that bad" or if they are just endlessly forgiving.

 

For me, there's a level of justice involved in not letting people just get away with terrible things they've done. It's not vengeance when they really are a terrible person to decide they don't ever again get freedom.

 

Forgiveness to me is a more personal emotion. Like it mostly just harms the upset person not to forgive someone else. It's not about absolving Regina, it's about not hurting yourself seething at someone else. So sure, everyone can be forgiven, but forgiving them has nothing to do with whether or not the person they forgive should still be locked up forever and executed. Like that the Charmings want to forgive Regina and not destroy themselves hating her? Fine, good for them. That they seem to believe to forgive her they must give her absolute freedom, including  thatRegina's allowed to hurt more people. Idiots.

 

And I also do not believe that no matter how bad somebody is, there should be hope for them. Kill a child? Please leave my planet. Abuse a child? Please leave my planet.  Rape someone? Please leave my planet. Genocide? Please leave my planet. Decades long imprisonment, torture, rape, abuse of anyone you've kidnapped?  You get the idea. Like I guess on a certain level I believe it's like you're not supposed to be able to LIVE WITH having done those things. You're supposed to realize you're scum wasting oxygen and resources with every breath you take and piece of food you eat from here on out. That you are owed exactly NOTHING at all, ever. You are not supposed to be happy and it's not wrong that you are not.

 

I get it's a fantasy, but people guilty of the above things riding off into the sunset, happy with children and families is the exact opposite of my fantasy world.

[KingOfHearts]

 

And I also do not believe that no matter how bad somebody is, there should be hope for them.

 

Then I don't see how any villain could ever be redeemed. If they can't be happy, then what's the point of redeeming themselves? If there's no silver lining to changing their ways, then staying evil is the only way to go for them. Of course I want Regina to realize what she's done and feel bad about it, but I don't think she should be stuck in it. There's no hope there if she can't get out of it.

 

Where does one draw the line between redeemable and unredeemable?

 

I agree Snow and Charming should have locked her up or executed her a long time ago, but I still firmly believe she can still repent. If this show has taught me anything, it's that there's always hope.

Edited July 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Aliasscape]

Note, I didn't draw a blanket line against people who want to be in a power, take over the world, the regular murderers, spree killers, even serial killers. That leaves lots of villain types that can still have hope. You want to take some time and explore their souls, fine.

 

But I don't find it that hard to go but if you're capable of causing physical or psychological torment long term or for a child, or sexual torment period, yeah no. (Plus a genocide could easily wipe out more people than the average serial killer is going to take out in their entire career.)

 

I think it's because people who do the types of crimes I'm talking about are either lacking in or have had to kill so much of their own humanity to do what they've done in the first place. Lots of serial killers actually have way more restraint about the things they're willing to do than Regina does.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Aliasscape

[FabulousTater]

If they can't be happy, then what's the point of redeeming themselves?

Maybe because doing the right thing and redemption isn't necessarily about the villains making themselves feel good or about their happiness. It's about doing what's right, not just for themselves, but for those around them. And sometimes what's right involves something that will hurt you - self-sacrifice. Not even good guys are always happy so the sole point of redemption isn't about personal "happiness". In simplistic terms, redemption is about learning not to be a selfish murdering asshole because it's the f*ing right thing to do not just 'cause it can make you happy.

 

Regina, Rumpel, and the rest of Villains Inc. are villains because they are (among other things) selfish to the extreme. They do atrocious things in attempts to make themselves happy regardless of others. They give in to their most base desires - raping, pillaging, and murdering - because it will bring them happiness. If the standard of being good is making yourself happy then OUAT has successfully turned morality on it's head.

[KingOfHearts]

 think it's because people who do the types of crimes I'm talking about are either lacking in or have had to kill so much of their own humanity to do what they've done in the first place. Lots of serial killers actually have way more restraint about the things they're willing to do than Regina does.

 

I 100% agree Regina should have been executed for her crimes. Snow and Charming were stupid for letting her go. In doing so, they allowed a curse that destroyed their own lives. My point is that here in 3B, Regina can still change for the better. She's not the same psycho public menace serial killer she once was. Still unstable yes, but not nearly as bloodthirsty or problematic. At least now Regina has some desire to change.

 

 

If the standard of being good is making yourself happy then OUAT has successfully turned morality on it's head.

 

Yes, I agree. But in a villain's mind, they need a reason to even want to change. They should get to the point where good is just to be good yes, but if they don't see any hope, they won't want to change at all in the first place.

Edited July 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

Where does one draw the line between redeemable and unredeemable?

 

Any character's moral event horizon is of course subjective, but Regina's crossed a few, in my opinion. Killing her father to enact the curse. All those children she sent into the Blind Witch's house to retrieve the apple. Massacring an entire village. Making a sex slave out of the Huntsman for disobeying her and then killing Graham for having the audacity to reject her. Wiping Henry's memory when he shockingly wasn't at all on board with her plan to, y'know, kill his entire family and everyone else in town. Specifically stating that she does not regret the mass murdering, curse casting evil witch she's become.

 

I've resigned myself to the fact that Regina is going to be redeemed by this show but I don't necessarily want her to be. I'm not opposed to it, because the story is clearly heading that way, but I do wish the story would actually address Regina's atrocities and stop trying to treat them as if it's all "bygones."

Edited July 7, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[FabulousTater]

They should get to the point where good is just to be good yes, but if they don't see any hope, they won't want to change at all.

My point is that they should be wanting to change not for their own happiness. Sure, that could be a part of their reasoning, but only a small part. The larger portion of their desire for redemption should start from recognizing right from wrong and then wanting to do the right thing. If their desire to change is based only on their happiness then it's a selfish and shallow reasoning and one that they can easily be swayed. Because as I said, not even the good guys are happy all the time. So the the first time something goes wrong for Regina (oh, look Marian is back!) she'll turn back to doing evil things to make her happy because her desire for "redemption" is based on only being happy (no matter what the cost).

Edited July 7, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Mari]

I'm not opposed to it, because the story is clearly heading that way, but I do wish the story would actually address Regina's atrocities and stop trying to treat them as if it's all "bygones."

This.

I'm okay with a story arc where Regina understands what she did was wrong, and tries to improve and make what amends she can.  That makes sense--and has been well done with more than one show/movie/book.

 

Where Once loses me is when they make Regina into a gleeful child abuser, mass murderer, and rapist, and then at no point have a reformed Regina acknowledge that what she did was wrong and that she needs to try to make amends--and not just to the Charmings.

 

It's like the show runners think the evil comes off with the truly obnoxious wigs and headpieces.  Sorry.  It doesn't.  Better hair doesn't make her less evil.

 

Can Regina make up for everything she's done?  No.  Never.  It's impossible.  No one can truly erase the damage they've caused other people, and Regina's caused more damage than most characters on TV.  But it's annoying that it's like she--and the showrunners--don't even see that she should try; a good person would try.

[FabulousTater]

It's like the show runners think the evil comes off with the truly obnoxious wigs and headpieces.  Sorry.  It doesn't.  Better hair doesn't make her less evil.

Not just that. They treat it like she was an entirely different person! Like in the finale when Emma and Hook are hiding in the forest as Regina terrorizes the villagers. Emma calls her Regina in that scene but Hook says to Emma "Not Regina, love. The Evil Queen". 

What?! She's not Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Regina wasn't possessed by a demon or experiencing multiple personality disorder. Regina IS The Evil Queen. Don't give me this crap where "oh, no that's not Regina, that's the Evil Queen." Eff that. She was still trying to kill everyone even when she wasn't dressing in corsets and riding around in a carriage! 

[Rockybeach]

I think she will walk at first. I think Robin will be the one to step up and show her that he cares about her. I love the comment about Pixie dust never lies. Regina could have approached Robin years ago, but choose not too. It was an important message in the season finale. I think it took her years to want to change. Before that happened there would be no chance at happiness and love for her. Not sure how involved Henry will be in the storyline. It will be curious to see his reaction. He was not happy when he found out Emma was lying to him about New York and wanting to take him away from his family.

It would be nice to see Henry there to support her. Not sure if it will happen. I am actually interested in seeing her interact more with Tinkerbell since she kind of started all this.

 

I also think if these writers had more talent and less interest in making OUAT a soap opera they would have brought Daniel back. I think that would have been a more interesting story. First love and all.  I would have loved to see how Daniel and Regina would work now.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Rockybeach

[Rumsy4]

Regina needs a metaphorical "Hook crying to Ariel/hitting himself" moment. Not because of Henry or Robin Hood or because she wants to be happy. She needs to reach the nadir for once in her life when she realizes the horrific things she has done, and truly wants to make amends. Not just to Henry, or even to Snow, but the countless others she has targeted--the "collateral damage" she has been dismissing so easily. I do believe that anyone can be redeemed, but Regina's redemption arc in the Show is so extremely problematic to me because she has not truly paid any price for her evil acts, she is still in a position of power, and her victims have been made into her cheerleaders. When we compare Hook and Regina, a lot of the characters still don't trust him readily, and people are quick to jump at his throat when he messes up. That is the right reaction to a former-villain. Regina needs to work hard to prove herself to all her victims in Storybrooke. But she is never going to do that because she is the Mayor and she still has Magic. I wish the writers had handled her redemption differently. 

Edited July 7, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

I think my biggest problem with the Regina redemption is that it does come off as self-serving. She's not doing good things just because it's the right thing to do, she does them because they help her in some way. Which isn't to say that her helping isn't a good thing, just that as Rumsy4 says above, she needs to do something for the right reason and not get something out of it. She must go forward and apologize and take the punishment that comes from it. Most of Regina's actions right now come from what I call the Regina Decision Tree.

 

Should Regina take an action - Is it good? - Yes - Does it help her in some way? - Yes - Will everyone praise her for it? - No - Don't take this action/Avoid repeating this action

 

When it doesn't matter what the answers are to the questions (except for the good/evil part) because the action will be taken regardless, that's when I start buying into any character's redemption. Since I know the writers understand this given the way Hook seems to have reached the point of not needing a decision tree and just doing something because it's what a decent person does, I can hope that eventually Regina will have to get there too.

[FavFable]

It would be nice to see Henry there to support her. Not sure if it will happen. I am actually interested in seeing her interact more with Tinkerbell since she kind of started all this.

 

I also think if these writers had more talent and less interest in making OUAT a soap opera they would have brought Daniel back. I think that would have been a more interesting story. First love and all.  I would have loved to see how Daniel and Regina would work now.

I agree the finale was simplistic and pointless, but I have to disagree with you about the writers. Look at the time and attention they gave Regina's redemption arc. Compare that to the lack of development for the two male villains. Hook just changed sides to sleep with Emma. Any good act he did was because he wanted something in return from Emma. And Rumple's "redemption" was really more of a joke. He lied to his "true love" to get her to marry him and he continues to makes her look like a fool. Regina's change has been slow difficult and included set backs. I think it will include a few more. But it shows how she is changing not for anyone else, but for herself. I like your idea about brining Daniel back. That is one reunion I would have loved to see.

[stealinghome]

My point is that they should be wanting to change not for their own happiness. Sure, that could be a part of their reasoning, but only a small part. The larger portion of their desire for redemption should start from recognizing right from wrong and then wanting to do the right thing.

This.

 

If a villain's happiness/unhappiness is the barometer for whether they'll reform, maybe the way to say it is that I want the villains to be unhappy because they realize they're terrible people and have done terrible things. They should be unhappy because they are appalled at how evil they are and how much damage they've caused, how many people they've hurt. If they're unhappy, it should be with themselves. And what should make them happy is being better people. Again, I go back to the classic show--Xena. Xena hated herself so much that she was basically passively suiciding before she met Gabrielle. She was horrified by her own evil.  And she spent the rest of her life trying to make up for it--while knowing that there's absolutely no way she could. That is what I need to see in a redemption story--and for Regina and/or Rumpel that story needs to be on steroids, because they've both done far, far, far more damage than Xena ever did. (This, incidentally, is why it always makes me laugh when people bring up Xena as an example of why Regina can be redeemed. Bitches please, on the best day of her life Regina couldn't hold Xena's jock in terms of the redemption story.)

 

But then again, frankly, I don't believe in redemption and forgiveness for everyone. Sometimes people are just way, way, way too evil for me to want to see them be anything but locked away for the rest of their lives. Both Regina and Rumpel fall into that category for me at this point.

[Rumsy4]

 

I like your idea about bringing Daniel back. That is one reunion I would have loved to see.

 

But they did bring Daniel back briefly in Season 2 courtesy of Dr. Whale, and Regina had to let him go. The theme of OUAT is progression. All the major characters except for Snowing have had to let go of their First Loves. Daniel and Regina would not work at all at this point--she is too different from the the naive and innocent girl she once was.