Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[KingOfHearts]

Well, since we waited 4 episodes to hear that EQ is immortal, there is probably room to explain more of how she works as an entity. But, then again, Regina avoided killing Snow repeatedly for no good reason. So there's that. 

[Shanna Marie]

18 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

But, then again, Regina avoided killing Snow repeatedly for no good reason.

But as we've also seen, Regina was actively trying and had a couple of times when she really thought she'd succeeded. The Evil Queen hasn't even done anything to Snow. I think Regina in good mode has been nastier to Snow than the Evil Queen has because "good" Regina has made some really ugly "snarky" remarks to Snow and keeps mentioning the "murder" of Cora. Has the Evil Queen even said anything bad to or about Snow?

[Rumsy4]

EQ! and Snow haven't interacted much yet. And the "good" Regina that made those remarks had the "Darkness" inside her. Or whatever. :-p

[TheGreenKnight]

I'm guessing the Evil Queen side of Regina is looking back on the fact that she's tried repeatedly to murder everyone and it's never worked, so she's playing a long-game of screwing with everyone's heads--making Regina realize she's never going to escape temptation, enticing Rumpel to let go of Belle (his only real restraint), sending Charming on a goose chase about his father (likely leading to someone  he'll be at odds with--my guess is Hook or Rumpel), making the weight on Emma to save everyone feel like an even heavier burden, reminding Henry of his cold childhood with Regina, etc. The only ones whose minds she hasn't really played with yet are Snow and Belle (if she even cares about Belle), but sending Charming on a possible revenge quest disrupts Snow's life anyway.

[Mathius]

Many of Regina's kills were done mindlessly, without thinking straight...including non-EQ Regina's kill of Edmond Dantes.  I stand by that the reason EQ isn't just killing everyone is that she's the more calculating and patient side of Regina (more like S1 Mayor Mills), while "good" Regina is the one prone to killing people as a quick fix.  Like with Jekyll and Hyde, they're making you question which side is really the worse one.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Mathius said:

 I stand by that the reason EQ isn't just killing everyone is that she's the more calculating and patient side of Regina (more like S1 Mayor Mills), while "good" Regina is the one prone to killing people as a quick fix.  Like with Jekyll and Hyde, they're making you question which side is really the worse one.

Can you really imagine them going there, though, when they make such a point of blaming Regina's crimes on the Evil Queen? But I think they've given themselves an out, in a way, by having the Jekyll/Hyde split be more about fear and passion than actually about evil vs. good. So maybe Regina is the "Hyde," but not because she's actually worse but because she's the one with the passion and ability to love while the Evil Queen comes closer to cold logic and subtle manipulation.

[KAOS Agent]

If the Evil Queen hates all these people so much, why not just kill them all and leave town to start over? The whole I want to watch you in pain thing is silly. She had that for 28 years and got bored with it within a week. Why would she decide to repeat that? It didn't make her happy. Maybe she's hot for Rumpel and is killing time waiting for him to come around by messing with everyone else.

Edited October 17, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

If the Evil Queen hates all these people so much, why not just kill them all and leave town to start over? The whole I want to watch you in pain thing is silly. She had that for 28 years and got bored with it within a week. Why would she decide to repeat that? It didn't make her happy. Maybe she's hot for Rumpel and is killing time waiting for him to come around by messing with everyone else.

But all the villains are idiots that way.

Rumple let Hook live so that he could suffer. Rumple let Hyde live in the flashback (he didn't know he couldn't kill him) so that he could suffer. Jafar let Aladdin live so that he could suffer. EQ is letting everyone live so that they could suffer.

[Rumsy4]

I'm not at all sure where they're going with Regina/EQ's sudden hots for Rumple. They're even retroactively making Regina flirt with Rumple in the past, which had never been the case. It has to be some plot point for the season, or they'd not have introduced it. The whole Regina and EQ! complimenting Gold on his haircut the same way was funny, but also really pointed. I simple can't see Gold returning the favor, becasue for better or for worse, he loves Belle (even if it is a twisted love). Regina is going to be so embarrassed if/once she reintegrates the EQ back into herself.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

I'm not at all sure where they're going with Regina/EQ's sudden hots for Rumple. It has to be some plot point for the season, or they'd not have introduced it.

You're forgetting it's *this* show.  Nothing goes anywhere and there is never a reason for anything.

[Rumsy4]

59 minutes ago, Camera One said:

You're forgetting it's *this* show.  Nothing goes anywhere and there is never a reason for anything.

Lol. My bad... They were probably just going for the sexy=seductress=evil stereotype. 

[Curio]

I'm really struggling with accepting Regina and the Evil Queen as being the same person, even though I've been the poster who hates separating the two as if they're completely separate characters. The main issue I’m having with the double Regina plot right now is that they’ve made the two versions too drastically different from each other. Unlike Gold, Regina was never inserted with dark goop that altered her personality—she became the Evil Queen all by herself. Because of that, in theory, Mayor Regina could potentially slip over time and act more like her campy Evil Queen self again, but I have a difficult time buying that because they act so incongruent.

Whenever I watch a flashback of Captain Hook at his worst, I can still accept that he eventually turns into current Hook who wears skinny jeans and fetches Emma coffee because the two versions are similar enough where you can accept they’re the same character. I can even do the same with Rumple and Gold because of the black goop consuming his soul. I can’t do the same with Regina and the Evil Queen. I can’t buy that Regina ever had a personality that looked like the Evil Queen in her past, and I also can’t buy that she’s been bottling up that personality inside her for all these years. The show has done too good of a job at convincing the audience the Evil Queen and Regina are separate people because what they show on screen is exactly that—they might as well be two separate characters because they hardly share any similar qualities anymore. If Mayor Regina randomly started cackling maniacally or used her sexuality to hit on Gold, everyone would look at her like she’s gone mad, but we’re actually supposed to accept that she has those feelings inside her that could come out at any moment.

The writers want us to believe Regina has “changed so much,” but I don’t see change as much as I see a total re-write of the character.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Curio

[KAOS Agent]

I wouldn't mind the Evil Queen running around town so much if I knew she was actually working towards something. I want the Evil Queen to have an ultimate goal. A real thing that she's aiming for besides messing with the Charmings. Does she want them dead? Then kill them. If that's not what she wants, what will she require to consider herself fulfilled? What is her end game? Lana gave an interview a couple weeks ago where she said she didn't know what the goal was and I don't think that helps. Maybe Lana could play things differently if she knew that the Evil Queen was cooking up a sinister plot beyond killing red shirts and playing stupid mind games with the Charmings. But if Lana doesn't know, does that mean the showrunners don't really know either and they're just playing with the Evil Queen toy?

If the Evil Queen required Regina to become dark again in order to control her when they remerged or something even that would raise the stakes. I don't need the Evil Queen & Zelena at a spa talking about whether either has banged Rumpel or rehashing the same conversation they've already had multiple times. The spa would be more fun if they really played up Goldilocks & her Bears running it. Or made Goldilocks a spy for the Charmings reporting on the every little detail about the conversation. Do the people in Storybrooke really not bat an eye when the Evil Queen walks in? No one is interested in stopping her? I don't get it.

[Shanna Marie]

You know you've got a problem when the big villain has the time and opportunity to take a spa day. That suggests that the heroes aren't on the ball enough to know what the villain's doing and be able to stop her and/or that she'd not enough of a threat for them to care what she's doing. Plus, it shows that her goal or plan is so vague and unfocused that she has time to spend getting a manicure and facial rather than working on her evil scheme. She's not even terrorizing the spa staff and resting her feet on the body of the person she killed on her way in the door while she gets a pedicure.

Wasn't the idea of this split that the Evil Queen was Regina without a conscience, and with all the animal passion? She's even more ineffectual than Regina. Meanwhile, Regina herself doesn't seem to have changed all that much. She did offer a weak apology for being a bad stepmother, which is an improvement over her usual self, but then she also blamed Zelena for everything, which is her usual self. Evil Queen just seems to be a less serious and focused Regina with a campier wardrobe, while Regina with all the dark and bad stuff is barely different from her usual self.

[tennisgurl]

The Evil Queen is, so far, SUCH a useless villain. The one really nasty thing she did was force the Count to attack people, and get Regina to kill him (although she didn't REALLY have to if she really tried not to kill him, but thats another issue), and everyone forgot about that in 15 minutes, so who cares? Her whole "evil plan" is to tear apart the Charmings? Well, she really sucks at it. Every time she tries to manipulate them into falling apart, it just brings them together. She just wanders around town, being annoying. No one seems very afraid of her (even though she did kill somebody and kidnapped a guy), no one is really trying to stop her, so...whats the point of her?

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

(although she didn't REALLY have to if she really tried not to kill him, but thats another issue)

? I thought the show made it very clear it was only done out of necessity.

Anyway, I keep ping-ponging back and forth on TEQ. I hated the idea at the end of S5, they made me like her in the first few eps of S6, and now these past two episodes have soured me on her. I did like her interaction with Henry this past episode, but not much else. It's clear they had no plan for her except to sashay around and be a shitstirrer. Which is entertaining sometimes, but seems like a weird "plan" for what was intended as the season draw. I'm hoping they reveal there's more to what's going on than they've so far let on.

[tennisgurl]

12 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

? I thought the show made it very clear it was only done out of necessity.

Well, the show SAID she had no choice, and I dont really hold it against Regina, but I feel like the Good Guys could have tried a little harder to stop him without killing him. Its not like he was a huge dude or had a gun or powers or anything. They could have tried to stab him in the leg or something to incapacitate him, or knock him out and lock him up until they got his heart back. Its more a flaw in the writing than anything. 

And, yeah, Evil Queen did have potential, but she acts more like a less intelligent version of Regina from Mean Girls, instead of Regina from OUAT. 

[Shanna Marie]

My issue with the Evil Queen was that it's taken her this long to decide what she wants and to form a goal. Does that mean that the revenge hatred was Regina all along? But wouldn't revenge hatred be considered "dark" and therefore be part of the Evil Queen that was split off from Regina? She's supposedly the embodiment of everything that was dark about Regina, the parts of Regina that made Regina so miserable being good, but she didn't know what she really wanted until now? Was Regina really so miserable from having a part of her deep down inside that wanted a spa day? The Evil Queen being so blah really makes Regina's misery and struggle with darkness look lame.

[KingOfHearts]

I really enjoy the Evil Queen as a character but not as an antagonist. (Which is the completely opposite of how I felt about Hades.) She highlights the most entertaining aspects of Regina. I want to keep her around as a gray character, but the only way for her to be relevant is if she were the only Regina.

Edited October 31, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Well, the show SAID she had no choice, and I dont really hold it against Regina, but I feel like the Good Guys could have tried a little harder to stop him without killing him. Its not like he was a huge dude or had a gun or powers or anything. They could have tried to stab him in the leg or something to incapacitate him, or knock him out and lock him up until they got his heart back. Its more a flaw in the writing than anything. 

Actually, the Evil Queen seemed to agree with you.

Regina: I had no choice.

Evil Queen: No, that's not true.

Regina: I couldn't just stand by and watch the Count kill my friends.

Evil Queen: Oh, I thought heroes always found a third way... unless, of course, this means you're not a hero.

[KingOfHearts]

I was watching Psycho by Alfred Hitchcock. I'll put spoiler tags in case someone hasn't seen it. No way I'm ruining this brilliant movie.

Spoiler

I can't help but think A&E were going for a duality similar to Norman/Mother, with one side being the serial killer and the other dominated into meekness. The ending of the movie leaves you with the question - was "Mother" the evil one, or was it Norman? The Evil Queen is a far cry from the genius of the movie. No argument there. No comparison. However, Psycho proves that the split personality concept can work wonderfully. With the We Are Both element introduced in Once, that's a perfect way to explore multiple personalities in one person. The problem is that Regina is one of the few characters that did not have fake memories. Regina Mills and Queen Regina are one in the same. 

Norman created his other half out of guilt and twisted conditioning. Regina's mother was just as controlling as his, but Regina didn't have a disorder like Cruella. It's implied that Norman was disturbed from a young age. Regina had the opportunities to escape her situation. She was exposed to positive influences. She wasn't took in a motel for years with no friends. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for her to become a psychopath. We saw that in her younger days she had some sort of moral understanding. There was never a traumatizing moment that could have convincingly modified her entire personality. Blaming Snow out of the Stable Boy was kind of out of nowhere. Not being able to resurrect Daniel was probably meant to be her lightswitch moment, but it wasn't really enough to warrant becoming an mass murdering evil tyrant. We've seen plenty of other characters deal with loss without going postal. 

(No spoilers onward.)

Rumple was a great manipulator, but he wasn't that unstoppable. He was outwitted by Swiss Miss, Zelena, Cora, Hook, Pan, The Apprentice, Henry, Belle, and a freaking fetus. Regina looks incredibly stupid for letting Rumple get to her every single time. It's like Charlie Brown and the football. She would listen to his every word, then turn around and try to one-up him. I guess now you could say she was secretly in love with him, but she loved her father more and didn't listen to any of his advice. The Evil Queen's existence hinges on Rumple's ability to constantly trick her, and that, imo, gives him too much credit.

Regina is definitely psychologically disturbed as it stands. But split personality? I don't think so.

Edited November 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

14 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for her to become a psychopath. We saw that in her younger days she had some sort of moral understanding. There was never a traumatizing moment that could have convincingly modified her entire personality. Blaming Snow out of the Stable Boy was kind of out of nowhere. Not being able to resurrect Daniel was probably meant to be her lightswitch moment, but it wasn't really enough to warrant becoming an mass murdering evil tyrant.

 

This is where they lost me with Regina's character and why I was never able to connect with her even way back in Season 1. There's no realistic way someone turns into a psychopathic, over-the-top, murderous tyrant who randomly likes to speak in Southern Belle accents and chews the scenery for a good portion of their life, only to flip a switch and become current Mayor Regina who has lost most of those qualities. The show likes to play off the Evil Queen's psychopathic phase as just that—a phase. If this show was more like Galavant where it poked fun at fairy tale tropes and noted how bizarre some of the Grimm stories would be if they played out for real in our modern world, that's one thing...but the writers don't present the show like that. They honestly want us to be invested in the fairy tale stories in a serious way and treat them as if they're real, and if they want that, then they have to present the characters as realistic humans, not fairy tale caricatures. 

Having the duel Reginas side-by-side this season in the same scenes together really highlights how incongruent the two personalities are. I just don't buy that sweet and kind teenage Regina from the flashbacks naturally evolved into the scene-chewing Evil Queen, and I don't buy that Mayor Regina could easily hide that Evil Queen personality of hers for all these years. They don't present Regina as having legitimate mental issues, and they chastise the other characters if they're too mean to Regina about her murderous past, so it's like I'm supposed to laugh at murderous Evil Queen in the flashbacks but then cry whenever Mayor Regina doesn't get her way in the present because they're two separate characters. They tried to hint at some kind of mental thing going on in the Season 5 finale, but they never fully went all the way and said that Regina had mental problems she needed to overcome. 

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Regina is definitely psychologically disturbed as it stands. But split personality? I don't think so.

I can actually buy split personality more than I can "poor misunderstood queenie." I either need to see more of the Evil Queen's personality in current Regina, or the show needs to tell me Regina legitimately has dissociative identity disorder and how that came to be. The show could have easily played the Evil Queen more subtle like they have with Hook, but they didn't. He's still clearly a villain in flashbacks, but he's not so over-the-top and so different from his current personality where you can see how he transitioned from one version to the other. But when I see Regina flashbacks, the show has turned the Evil Queen into such a caricature that the only possible way I can believe the Evil Queen eventually transitions into Mayor Regina is if she has a personality disorder. 

[KingOfHearts]

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I can actually buy split personality more than I can "poor misunderstood queenie." 

Split personality does fill in a lot of blanks. It was probably very alluring to the writers to give her two halves so they could do whatever they wanted with her, whenever they wanted. Physically splitting the two has given them even more freedom to do so. 

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 I either need to see more of the Evil Queen's personality in current Regina, or the show needs to tell me Regina legitimately has dissociative identity disorder and how that came to be. The show could have easily played the Evil Queen more subtle like they have with Hook, but they didn't. 

Hook and Rumple are both more believable, imo. It mostly has to do with setup. Hook lost his dad through abandonment, he lost his brother, and then his wife/lover. He had difficulty caring about others because he lost every single person he cared about. It didn't help that he was an alcoholic in a bad environment, growing up in slavery and later becoming a pirate. Even with all that, he wasn't killing people for giggles. He only went after anyone who got in his way for revenge. His thirst for blood blinded him. As for Rumple, he was always power hungry and self-centered, even as a peasant. His dad was a greedy conman. Both Hook and Rumple had single fathers who abandoned them.

Regina had two parents who did actual parenting. (Even if it were very poor parenting.) Even though her mother was abusive, she was still taught many skills and was probably exposed to a lot. She didn't seem traumatized in the Sisters flashback before Zelena got taken away. I don't think her upbringing was as bad as Hook or Rumple's in any way. Sure, she was a victim of bad parenting, but it was still better than being an orphan in a harsh environment.

Without some existing condition, I don't think her childhood could be traumatizing enough to cause her to go EQ, even with the Daniel incident. I guess if the show really wanted to go that angle, it could. But many times I feel the writing is portraying Daniel as an understandable reason for Regina to go on a rampage. Not a good one, but a believable one. However, for that to work, there had to be more setup. Daniel had to be the final straw, not the entire game changer. Regina seemed pretty stable-minded (no pun intended) right before it happened. The difference was just too dramatic.

Spoiler

I also want to add that Norman's transformation happened over the course of years and many things contributed to it. If the Once writers wanted to sell that Regina was capable of going dark later in the life, they should have shown us more traumatizing experiences in her childhood. Zelena doesn't count because that memory got wiped. It's funny that Cruella's flashbacks illustrate the backstory to her psychopathic nature so well while keeping it brief. They were pretty blunt about her psychological condition.

Edited November 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Without some existing condition, I don't think her childhood could be traumatizing enough to cause her to go EQ, even with the Daniel incident. I guess if the show really wanted to go that angle, it could. But many times I feel the writing is portraying Daniel as an understandable reason for Regina to go on a rampage. Not a good one, but a believable one. However, for that to work, there had to be more setup. Daniel had to be the final straw, not the entire game changer. Regina seemed pretty stable-minded (no pun intended) right before it happened. The difference was just too dramatic.

There may have been an underlying pathology that was triggered by the Daniel incident. When you look at Cora and Zelena, they're both a little unbalanced, so it may be genetic. There's definitely a streak of narcissism, which manifests itself in that strong sense of entitlement -- I deserve all the things, I'm special so why am I not getting special treatment -- and a self-focus so strong that it leads to a complete lack of empathy that at times goes all the way to being a sociopath and an inability to consider that any other person or thing has any existence other than to serve her. Growing up with Cora obviously wasn't a picnic, but at the same time, it was ideal for a narcissist, since the entire focus of Cora's life was making Regina into a queen and then there was her doting father. Regina didn't really want to be a queen, but she may have thrived on the attention, which could explain why she went through with the marriage to Leopold even after she banished Cora. She may not have missed her abusive mother, but she might have missed that level of attention. Then maybe it wasn't just Daniel's death that set her off, but the fact that once she was married, Snow was still the center of attention. A raging narcissist who's lost someone who loved her and the person who devoted her life to her, thrown into a situation where someone else is the center of attention and the one who's most loved and devoted, is probably going to snap. The increasing flamboyance may have been her way of trying to draw attention to herself.

When she got to Storybrooke, she was kind of flamboyant in different ways -- the designer wardrobe, the house, the office -- but she chafed at the lack of people to be devoted to her, and thus she adopted a child so she'd have someone to love her.

They went a little over the top with her past self after season one, so it no longer tracks quite as well, but Regina does kind of work if you think of her as desperately needing to be the center of attention. She works less well after she's reformed, but then very little about her reformation makes sense. It was too rapid and too easy, but I guess she's still the center of attention. She's getting more focus now than she did growing up with Cora and Henry Sr, with the whole Charming family plus Henry jumping in to cater to her every emotional whim, while she barely notices their existence when they're not worshiping her. She can only see her own suffering and barely notices the suffering of others.

[TheGreenKnight]

I don't think the show's ever tried to say she had a split personality? It's more of a case of who she was versus who she is with TEQ v. Regina, not so much of an evil v. good split. I personally see Daniel's death as traumatizing enough for her to have a mental breakdown, partly because I think she pinned so much hope onto Daniel (hopes for a HEA, hopes that she'd escape her mother, hopes that she'd have a better life to make her own choices and not be held responsible to achieve Cora's dreams of a higher station). Once he died, she pretty much gave up on the possibility of anything getting better and gave in to evil (and at some point began to enjoy it). The thing is we never really saw the character grieve, and it's likely most of her grief was channeled into her hatred of Snow White. My guess is that irrationally she blamed Snow for everything because she was a weak scapegoat whereas her mother was someone she simultaneously loved in spite of herself (common with abuse victims--same applies to Snow with Regina) and also someone who she thought was too strong for her to fight.

I think Regina's childhood was about as bad as Hook's because while she wasn't in explicit slavery like Hook was, it wasn't much different than living with Cora since Regina was treated as an object made to achieve Cora's dreams (and put through the training that required). I think Rumpel had it easier than both of them. Sure, being abandoned was awful, but at least he didn't have an abuser that stuck around just to abuse him.

[Mathius]

Rumple had it way easier.  As traumatic as his abandonment was, he lived a decent life after that (raised by loving spinsters and able to find love with Milah) and it was his own choice to cling to that trauma and not let it go.  Hook had it worse than Regina, IMO, but Rumple had it better than both.

From the Relationships thread...

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I believe Regina has apologized with actions. Helping Snow and Emma return to Storybrooke in S2, stopping the diamond-thing-whatever at the end of S2, giving Emma and Henry a good "past" to live happily outside Storybrooke at the end of 3A, helping to find Emma with the others in 5A, going to the Underworld to help Emma resurrect Hook, saving Snow's and Charming's lives at the beginning of S6.

Henry had to pressure and guilt her into that first one because she had put them in danger to start with, she only did the second one when she was literally forced to because she lost control of the diamond-thing (she never chose to not enact her genocidal plan, she got stopped by Hook, Greg and Tamara), and she felt obligated (Lana Parilla confirmed so) for the fourth and fifth ones.  I do agree that the third one (giving Emma and Henry good memories) was a nice repentant action since it gained her nothing and was done for the good of Emma and Henry, and I bought her remorse during the sixth one but must point out that it came after she'd split her dark side from her, she may have felt different if she hadn't done that beforehand.

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There isn't much more she can do.

Yeah, there was something major she could have done that she didn't, which very well may have been the last straw for me when it comes to her redemption arc...she did not help a single one of her mass-murder victims in the Underworld.  That was the very thing Hades was concerned about in 5x12, that Regina killed so many people that she could also help them to find their unfinished business (which for many may very well be their grudge against her) and help them move on.  And then she didn't.  She helped her own father, her own mother and her own freaking horse move on, and that was it.  She showed zero enthusiasm or desire to help her victims, and did/said nothing at the end when Henry decided to rush Operation Firebird into action because he realized they'd all been slacking off on it.  The writers had an absolutely ideal set-up for some major redemption for Regina, and they threw it away because A&E admitted that they "weren't interested" in Regina helping "a bunch of nameless villagers we don't know", and were more interested in her finding closure in her family drama and achieving things that only benefited her.  They would rather she resolve her own unfinished business than have her resolve her victims' unfinished business.  And that right there is why I can't take her redemption arc seriously.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Mathius

[Mari]

Yes.  Absolutely, @Mathius.

Another glaring problem would be speeches by Regina, herself.  Every time they've gotten Regina's behavior to a place where it seems like she's making substantial changes, they do something like the Tree of Regret, which pretty much negates any notions that she was actually sorry for anything she'd done before that moment, no matter what she said or did that seemed like her atrophied conscience might be activating.

The last season, they negated any regret she's expressed with the speech about how much she's hated every minute of being not evil.

People who are actually better people than they used to be, usually can't honestly say they have no regrets and have hated every minute of behaving like a reasonable person.  The second might have been hyperbole, but the first can't be;.she was tied to the magical regret detecting tree.

[Mathius]

The second disturbs me far more than the first; that one at least was very early on in Regina's redemption, it wasn't unreasonable for her to still feel that way at that time.  But after several arcs on end touting how she's changed, she's a hero, she deserves her happy ending, they pull out the "I hate doing good" speech and have her admit that she only does it to preserve the good things she has in life...I can't help but get major whiplash from it.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Mathius

[TheGreenKnight]

3 hours ago, Mari said:

People who are actually better people than they used to be, usually can't honestly say they have no regrets and have hated every minute of behaving like a reasonable person.  The second might have been hyperbole, but the first can't be;.she was tied to the magical regret detecting tree.

I don't think that's true. You can do the right thing because it's the right thing even if it is not enjoyable. And, naturally, not doing what you want when you want and not having complete power/control isn't enjoyable when that's the kind of life you've lead for quite a long time. For comparison’s sake, do you think every minute of not using/drinking/gambling/etc. isn't miserable for an addict just because they know that not doing so is the right thing?

Edited November 4, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Mari]

I think there's a slight difference between struggling with something like alcoholism or opioid addictions, and having a sad because you aren't murdering and raping people any more.

[Mathius]

Yes, treating magic and power like an addiction, like they were doing in S2, is understandable.  Treating doing evil like an addiction, not so much.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Mathius

[TheGreenKnight]

I'm sorry you don't agree, but it is an apt comparison. Evil behavior is a habit that is hard to break just like an addiction. And the show does portray Regina’s struggle to stop doing evil the same way as an addiction.

Edited November 4, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[asabovesobelow]

I think 'doing evil' as an addiction is totally understandable in this context. This woman never put anyone but herself first. She knew what she wanted and she took it, anything standing in the way be damned. Now that she has people she genuinely cares for, she has to think before she acts. And she's doing that. So saying that it isn't the easiest thing in the world to not do the bad things she's been so used doing for the bulk of her life makes perfect sense to me.

[KAOS Agent]

I think one of the biggest problems with Regina is the story's need to maintain the status quo, which means that Regina is and always will be the biggest beneficiary of the curse. First, she actually won by casting the curse, so there's that. But now that the curse is broken, she hasn't lost. Henry will never be taken away from her. He's actually a reward for casting the curse and he healed the permanent hole in her heart, so even the price of the curse was removed in addition to the reward. Additionally, she has the love and acceptance of her stepdaughter, the townspeople apparently forgive her, she has a beautiful home, a leadership position in town and she's even managed to reconcile with her dead parents and gained a sister. If you're someone who needs some kind of justice, even if it's simply karmic, this is going to be the biggest barrier to supporting Regina and her redemption. It's particularly not helpful when they continue to add horrific crimes in her past. Multiple villages slaughtered, murdering randoms because she's having a bad day, etc. That's a lot of suffering she's inflicted. Despite how they try to tell us how Regina's life is so bad, she actually has it pretty good especially in comparison to these poor red shirts that pop up every time we get a new Evil Queen flashback. 

[Rumsy4]

6 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Multiple villages slaughtered, murdering randoms because she's having a bad day, etc. That's a lot of suffering she's inflicted. Despite how they try to tell us how Regina's life is so bad, she actually has it pretty good especially in comparison to these poor red shirts that pop up every time we get a new Evil Queen flashback. 

Especially since we never see her make restitution for any of her crimes. It's simply galling. Even Rumple, despite all the terrible things he has done, keeps paying the price for his evil. Hook has had to correct the wrongs he has done in his past (and literally died and got tortured in hell). Emma gets pilloried for every little mistake she makes. Snow's "murder" of Cora is never let go of. But Regina is generally treated with kid gloves. She is constantly allowed to bash and mock people, but gets offended whenever her past crimes are brought to her notice. It's the inequality of it all that makes it so hard for me to root for her. In a show where everyone gets a blank slate (like LOST in some ways), it doesn't matter. But this show treats Regina very differently than other charatcers. This story is Regina's fairy tale, and how she gets her Happy Ending. That's why she gets the Cinderella treatment, while the real Cinderella gets called the "evil" step-sister. 

[Camera One]

As recently as the Season 5 finale, the Writers had Snow say that she's partly responsible for the creation of The Evil Queen, so they still believe the victims should take partial blame.  It clearly shows the Writers' mindset have not changed at all, and there's no hope for any change.  You'd think they would have jump at the opportunity to give Lana such a great acting opportunity to spill out a true apology. 

[TheGreenKnight]

Yeah, it's not like anything bad has ever happened to Regina on this show, like when Henry openly rejected her throughout the first two seasons, Rumpel helped to kill Cora, she was tortured by Tamara and what's-his-name, Henry was kidnapped in part because of the guy whose father she'd killed in "Welcome to Storybrooke" wanting revenge, she had to let Henry go at the end of 3A because of the fine details of her Curse, find out Cora had another child who was more powerful than her and who wanted to wipe her + Henry out of existence in 3B, meet Henry without any memory of her in 3B, have her boyfriend's wife she killed brought back to life right when her relationship was solidified, have to save said wife's life when her heart was frozen and then watch them leave town, learn her sister broken up her relationship and raped her boyfriend (having his child where she never would be able to), nearly have her boyfriend killed because of her past in Camelot, have her boyfriend wiped out of existence by her sister's boyfriend because she was trying to give her sister the same chance to reform she had, and be forced to kill someone after she just split herself to get rid of her darkness. Most of her pain had a connection to her evil actions or her past evil--so it's not like she hasn't suffered for what she's done to other people.

[KAOS Agent]

But no one is claiming bad things don't happen to Regina. The problem is that bad things happen to everyone. Really, really bad things. If everyone else's life was sunshine and roses, it would be easier to agree with Regina that her life is so hard and she'll never be happy because she was evil.  Then the narrative that villains don't get happy endings ends up being a real thing and making sense. But everyone's lives suck. No one is really happy. And now we're told that Saviours never live happily ever after either. So Regina's unhappiness isn't a matter of karma or a price for her evil actions (although most of Regina's sadness does come because of previous poor choices), but is basically a part of life. Good or bad actions seem to result in misery. It's not the character's fault that the narrative requires lots and lots of angst and drama for TV purposes, but it makes the idea that she's suffering so much more than everyone else stupid. Even Regina agrees with the idea that being good just makes her suffering worse.

"So I do good and hate every moment of it ... I know it's right, but it always leads to loss for me. Yet I keep doing it now, and I keep suffering." 

What the hell is the messaging of this show? Being evil gets you what you want and makes you mildly happier than doing good because you'll at least get what you want. No wonder Regina is struggling with the evil. She got rewarded for her evil ways and now that she's on Team Hero, her life sucks just as much as theirs does. Regina's problem is that she tends to wallow in what she doesn't have while others manage to focus on what they do have. 

[Mathius]

Quote

I think one of the biggest problems with Regina is the story's need to maintain the status quo, which means that Regina is and always will be the biggest beneficiary of the curse. 

It is forever baffling that the show insists on keeping Regina mayor of Storybrooke (or co-ruler with Snowing during the missing year)....no, that's not how things work.  A deposed tyrant should never be re-instated in their prior position of power that they abused.   They can turn their lives around, do good, receive forgiveness for others, but still never be granted that position again, period.  There is absolutely zero logical reason for Regina to be mayor, have any sort of say in the lives of the people of Storybrooke, and keep living in her big fancy mansion.  If she still has all of those privileges, which she specifically gained from the curse and at everyone else's expense, then her redemption continues to feel unearned.

Quote

Especially since we never see her make restitution for any of her crimes. It's simply galling. 

Upon reflection, I realize how astounding it is that they actually brought Liam 2.0 back, treated his anger at Hook as justified, and allowed Hook to make amends and for Liam to actually receive a happy ending....and yet with Regina, who did we get in similar situations?  Owen/Greg - villified and killed.  Sir Percival - villified and killed.  Edmond Dantes - not villified but still killed.  Marian - villified by virtue of not even being Marian at all.  And otherwise, we don't get anyone like the bride of that groom she murdered coming back and Regina needing to make amends to her, or any relatives of that jester she killed on a whim.  And I once again must mention that she didn't meet with a single one of her victims in the Underworld or do a thing to help them.  This is where the writing for hero Regina fails the most for me....doing good in general to atone is fine, but that would only fly as a solid redemption for Regina if she was just an oppressive monarch who made people miserable.  But she has personally hurt and killed a large number of very specific people, and has barely atoned or apologized for any of those incidents.  Her recent acknowledgement that she's done "terrible, unspeakable things I can never take back" feels like a cop-out...like she figures there's nothing she could do to make things right so she needn't try.  

Quote

like when Henry openly rejected her throughout the first two seasons, Rumpel helped to kill Cora, she was tortured by Tamara and what's-his-name, Henry was kidnapped in part because of the guy whose father she'd killed in "Welcome to Storybrooke" wanting revenge, she had to let Henry go at the end of 3A because of the fine details of her Curse, find out Cora had another child who was more powerful than her and who wanted to wipe her + Henry out of existence in 3B, meet Henry without any memory of her in 3B, have her boyfriend's wife she killed brought back to life right when her relationship was solidified, have to save said wife's life when her heart was frozen and then watch them leave town, learn her sister broken up her relationship and raped her boyfriend (having his child where she never would be able to), nearly have her boyfriend killed because of her past in Camelot, have her boyfriend wiped out of existence by her sister's boyfriend because she was trying to give her sister the same chance to reform she had, and be forced to kill someone after she just split herself to get rid of her darkness. 

The thing about all of those is that very few of them have ever stuck.  Henry loves her now, she got closure with Cora in the afterlife, she shows no lingering trauma from that torture, she helped save Henry, Henry got his memories of her back, she defeated Zelena and later reconciled with her (although they're going through a rough period at the moment), the incident with the Count of Monte Cristo has literally not come up again since it happened....the only permanent thing is that she finally lost Robin Hood for good (after previous near-losses like with "Marian" and in Camelot and with the Fury), and even then she's set to receive further closure on that later in the season.  For someone who supposedly "gets screwed over the most" and has such massive karma that she has to keep paying for, Regina has suffered remarkably little long-lasting consequences for anything ever. It's kind of like her own logic in dismissing Snow's loss of Emma ("And then you found her!"), yet she still feels the need to complain about her life.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

I have a hard time equating alcoholism with evil. There's a difference between a recovering alcoholic being miserable because of physical cravings for alcohol but choosing not to drink and being someone who has ongoing urges to kill and hurt people and chooses not to but is miserable in doing so. It's about a change of heart, and if you are still miserable because you're not letting yourself murder people and destroy happiness, then you're still evil and you're a pretty bad person even if you don't do it. I have a hot temper, and I've had impulses to say mean things to people or wished I could hit them when they've done something to hurt me, but I can't imagine wanting to actually kill someone. It's petty but human for Regina to wish Emma might still be suffering the same way she is when she loses Robin rather than getting her boyfriend back from the dead. It's evil for her first impulse to be to want to rip out Hook's throat and really make Emma suffer.

That's what's baffling about the way they're writing Regina's so-called redemption. Because they seem reluctant for her to really admit where she went wrong or for her to truly apologize and atone, they've given her no real motivation for changing her behavior, no reason why she isn't killing if not killing makes her so miserable. It also means her relationships with the others are built on a false foundation if she still blames Snow, still wants to kill her and is miserable not killing her, but still hangs around with her and lets Snow devote so much time and energy to helping her. I could see her holding back from carrying out the evil she really wants to do if it was just because she didn't want Henry to hate her or because she didn't want to face retribution, but in that case, she'd more likely be hiding out elsewhere in town and not hanging out with the people she wants to kill, maybe only joining the group when there's an evil threatening the town that's also a threat to her.

As for the writers view that no one wants to see a bunch of random peasants, and so Regina's whole focus in the Underworld was on her parents, apparently they don't realize that the encounter with the random peasants wouldn't be about the peasants but would still be about Regina. It would be a way to show Regina changing (or not), give a way to show how she feels about what she once did, show her facing the past. The fate of the peasants might not matter to the story, but Regina facing that would show us a lot about Regina, something other than her going to a place she sent a lot of people and only running into the people she has to forgive rather than the people she needs to beg forgiveness from.

[Camera One]

Because they seem reluctant for her to really admit where she went wrong or for her to truly apologize and atone

I think it's because they believe this makes their writing more complex.  By doing this, they think they're making Snow morally grey so it's not black and white, so both of them need to meet in the middle.  It's ridiculous, but what else can you conclude when they say Regina has had it the worse out of everyone.

[Shanna Marie]

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

By doing this, they think they're making Snow morally grey so it's not black and white, so both of them need to meet in the middle.  It's ridiculous, but what else can you conclude when they say Regina has had it the worse out of everyone.

If they'd wanted Snow to be morally grey, they needed to have written it that way -- have her tell Cora about Daniel out of spite, to get back at Regina for what she saw as cheating on her dad (kissing someone else while engaged to Leopold). Still not evil, since she wouldn't have expected Daniel to get killed, but not as innocent as they went out of their way to show her, where she thought she was helping Regina get out of an engagement she didn't want and allowing her to be with the man she loved. It's a subtle change that still wouldn't have explained or justified Regina's extreme thirst for vengeance and all the damage she caused, but it at least would have justified some of the "I was such a brat" on Snow's part.

I should also add to my post above that even if ordinary people do have the occasional flicker of murderous impulse -- that "oh, I could just kill him" moment -- in most people it passes, and once they calm down, they're glad they didn't act on it. The scary thing with Regina is the fact that she's miserable and hates every minute of not acting on all those impulses. She hates that she couldn't let herself rip Hook's throat out. It's not just a "grrr, that's not fair" moment. It's apparently how she feels all the time, which shows that while she's behaving differently, she still hasn't changed. Perhaps that's the real difference with this split. The current Regina without the Evil Queen side of her is acting almost exactly the same way she has ever since she stopped acting evil, but she's no longer miserable doing so. She no longer wants to kill, no longer hates having to act nice. Basically, when you remove her evil side, she's like ordinary people who haven't had magic done on them to remove their evil sides.

[Camera One]

Quote

Still not evil, since she wouldn't have expected Daniel to get killed, but not as innocent as they went out of their way to show her, where she thought she was helping Regina get out of an engagement she didn't want and allowing her to be with the man she loved.

To me, that would have been even less enjoyable to watch.  They've already retro-actively tried to muddy Snow up, including murdering someone's beloved parent, stealing a baby, separating the baby from their mother for 28 years, cheating on her husband, hunting someone down out of revenge, and enacting the Dark Curse.  All of these are meant to "justify" Snow being willing to forgive Regina, since she has done a lot of "bad things" - in fact, committing almost all the crimes that Regina is "guilty" of.  They just need to throw in rape and village massacre and I would not be surprised if they somehow throw those in before the show is done.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Camera One

[TheGreenKnight]

13 hours ago, Mathius said:

The thing about all of those is that very few of them have ever stuck.  Henry loves her now, she got closure with Cora in the afterlife, she shows no lingering trauma from that torture, she helped save Henry, Henry got his memories of her back, she defeated Zelena and later reconciled with her (although they're going through a rough period at the moment), the incident with the Count of Monte Cristo has literally not come up again since it happened....the only permanent thing is that she finally lost Robin Hood for good (after previous near-losses like with "Marian" and in Camelot and with the Fury), and even then she's set to receive further closure on that later in the season.  For someone who supposedly "gets screwed over the most" and has such massive karma that she has to keep paying for, Regina has suffered remarkably little long-lasting consequences for anything ever. It's kind of like her own logic in dismissing Snow's loss of Emma ("And then you found her!"), yet she still feels the need to complain about her life.

Isn't the same true for most of the main characters' temporary angst on this show before the next angsting storyline begins? As for not showing her doing things in the Underworld, that's on the writers not thinking it would be interesting, not a reflection of the character. We were never personally shown any of her victims in the Underworld to know she was ignoring them or deliberately choosing not to help them, so I can hardly use that as a reason to say the character hasn't changed.

12 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I have a hard time equating alcoholism with evil. There's a difference between a recovering alcoholic being miserable because of physical cravings for alcohol but choosing not to drink and being someone who has ongoing urges to kill and hurt people and chooses not to but is miserable in doing so. It's about a change of heart, and if you are still miserable because you're not letting yourself murder people and destroy happiness, then you're still evil and you're a pretty bad person even if you don't do it. I have a hot temper, and I've had impulses to say mean things to people or wished I could hit them when they've done something to hurt me, but I can't imagine wanting to actually kill someone. It's petty but human for Regina to wish Emma might still be suffering the same way she is when she loses Robin rather than getting her boyfriend back from the dead. It's evil for her first impulse to be to want to rip out Hook's throat and really make Emma suffer.

I'm sorry you don't agree, but the comparison is still completely justified, imo. Changing bad habits is the same whether those habits are self-harming or causing harm to others. Only, in real life, when a person causes harm to others in the way Regina has you normally end up being locked up or put to death. Her inner thoughts about Hook's resurrection makes complete sense when you consider it's the first impulse of a woman who killed another woman's husband on their wedding day because she was jealous they were happy and she was not, who wanted to destroy Snow's happiness because her own was taken away.

12 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

That's what's baffling about the way they're writing Regina's so-called redemption. Because they seem reluctant for her to really admit where she went wrong or for her to truly apologize and atone, they've given her no real motivation for changing her behavior, no reason why she isn't killing if not killing makes her so miserable. It also means her relationships with the others are built on a false foundation if she still blames Snow, still wants to kill her and is miserable not killing her, but still hangs around with her and lets Snow devote so much time and energy to helping her. I could see her holding back from carrying out the evil she really wants to do if it was just because she didn't want Henry to hate her or because she didn't want to face retribution, but in that case, she'd more likely be hiding out elsewhere in town and not hanging out with the people she wants to kill, maybe only joining the group when there's an evil threatening the town that's also a threat to her.

Her initial motivation was very clear: she wanted to change for Henry. In 3B, she had more motivation to do so because of Robin and the possibility that her life didn't have to be spent alone just because Daniel had died. The motivation to do what's right for right's sake is something that has gradually happened over time, mostly after the resolution of 4B, probably because just the act of doing good has rubbed off on her and she enjoys being a part of a family with the rest of the main characters. We don't know if she still blames Snow (I don't think so, but there's no specific dialogue existing to confirm), but I do think it's clear she doesn't want to kill her anymore going by 6.02.

11 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I should also add to my post above that even if ordinary people do have the occasional flicker of murderous impulse -- that "oh, I could just kill him" moment -- in most people it passes, and once they calm down, they're glad they didn't act on it. The scary thing with Regina is the fact that she's miserable and hates every minute of not acting on all those impulses. She hates that she couldn't let herself rip Hook's throat out. It's not just a "grrr, that's not fair" moment. It's apparently how she feels all the time, which shows that while she's behaving differently, she still hasn't changed. Perhaps that's the real difference with this split. The current Regina without the Evil Queen side of her is acting almost exactly the same way she has ever since she stopped acting evil, but she's no longer miserable doing so. She no longer wants to kill, no longer hates having to act nice. Basically, when you remove her evil side, she's like ordinary people who haven't had magic done on them to remove their evil sides.

The difference is Regina is not a normal person. She has already acted on those impulses many, many times before. And when she and Rumpel (and any other villain) has killed a person on this show--they're smiling. Because it makes them feel powerful and in control, and since they lack(ed) any moral code, that's all that apparently mattered to them.

And behaving differently IS changing. Knowing her thoughts are evil/wrong and--especially--not acting on them means she has changed.

[Camera One]

I do agree she has changed.  In Season 6, she has been the most normalized as she has ever been, and to me, she's a better character for it.  If her relationships with Snow or Emma started to thaw now, gradually, then that might have been an enjoyable arc.  

[Curio]

On 11/4/2016 at 8:17 PM, KAOS Agent said:

If you're someone who needs some kind of justice, even if it's simply karmic, this is going to be the biggest barrier to supporting Regina and her redemption. It's particularly not helpful when they continue to add horrific crimes in her past. 

 

Responding in the writers thread.

On 11/4/2016 at 8:31 PM, Rumsy4 said:

But this show treats Regina very differently than other charatcers. This story is Regina's fairy tale, and how she gets her Happy Ending.

2

A&E claim this show is Emma's fairy tale and the show won't end until she gets her happy ending, but the show has shifted into becoming mostly Regina's fairy tale and it won't end until she gets her happy ending. With Emma and Hook officially living together and in love, the only main character who is missing her final puzzle piece (because this show equates having a romantic True Love as being the ultimate happy ending and Henry is not enough) is Regina. We're no longer worrying about who Emma will romantically end up with, or if she'll meet her adopted child she gave up at birth, or if she'll find her parents who gave her up, or if she'll discover she's a princess. In that sense, the writers have already wrapped up Emma's major stories and now want to focus most of their attention on Regina's happy ending. The tone of the show has certainly shifted since the first season.

7 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Isn't the same true for most of the main characters' temporary angst on this show before the next angsting storyline begins?

 

I think some viewers are looking for a permanent consequence that lasts longer than a season and has an everyday impact on Regina. Hook missing his hand and Rumple being a Dark One while none of the main regulars rush to be his best friend impact those characters every day and will last the entire series. Meanwhile, while Regina sometimes suffers temporary setbacks like Henry being separated from her or Zelena trying to hurt her, those issues are usually only season-long arcs that are resolved and flipped 180 degrees by the next season.

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

The Evil Queen, who also happens to be Regina. And if Robin comes back, then the other Regina gets everything too. So once again the Evil Queen wins. 

But she still won't be satisfied.  Remember, according to Eddy, no one has gone through as much as Regina/The Evil Queen.  It's almost like they identify with her the most, and they assume the viewers do so as well.  Is she supposed to be the underdog?

[daxx]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

But she still won't be satisfied.  Remember, according to Eddy, no one has gone through as much as Regina/The Evil Queen.  It's almost like they identify with her the most, and they assume the viewers do so as well.  Is she supposed to be the underdog?

Actually in an early interview I read somewhere they used the phrase, what if the evil queen got her happy ending to describe the show. At the time I thought they were talking about the dark curse from the pilot but now I'm thinking we've been sold a bill of goods. I think in their minds this is Regina's fairy tale, we were all mistaken to think it's Emma's.

[Souris]

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

But she still won't be satisfied.  Remember, according to Eddy, no one has gone through as much as Regina/The Evil Queen.  It's almost like they identify with her the most, and they assume the viewers do so as well.  Is she supposed to be the underdog?

A&E actually said that Regina represents them in Hollywood. No lie. For reals. No wonder they think she's been sooooooo unfairly judged and everybody are big meanies to poor little her. Emma probably represents all those other writers who get more respect even though they're not nearly so awesome as A&E. ::coughcough::

[KingOfHearts]

Regina's lack of screentime is a testament to the fact the Evil Queen is Regina. There are not strictly two sides. The entities are just chunks of her psyche smashed together with the capability to adopt the other's pieces. If Regina is capable of darkness and the Evil Queen is capable of love, doesn't that make them redundant? Eventually, they'll both become the same personality. As it stands, they have the same potential for becoming more like the other. Regina can become more impulsive and the Evil Queen can become more conscious of others. We've seen that.

The Evil Queen does seem to possess some good traits. She cares about her family, she's more assertive, she's honest, and she seems to be confident about her self-image. Regina, on the other hand, is meeker, overly concerned about what others think of her, withdrawn from those who need her support, and only follows morals to be socially accepted. It doesn't really make sense that the Evil Queen is doing bad things for the heck of it. I think the writers just wanted her as antagonist, regardless of logic.

If we really want to headcanon it, then we can say that both Regina and the Evil Queen have the same urges for evil, but since the Evil Queen is a woman of action, she actually accomplishes it. Regina is too scared to do anything.

Edited November 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts