Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Camera One]

Snowing sleeping with other people were played for laughs, except when Snow had to admit she committed adultery.  In real life, this type of thing would have been deeply traumatizing, and Regina *should* be feeling guilty about this (on top of the mass murder, rape of Graham, separating parents from their daughter for 28 years, etc.)  I do think Regina could be redeemed, but these acts must be acknowledged as the horrible acts they were and she needs to show full repentance, not "Well, you got [Emma] back in the end, didn't you?" or "Its complicated (I killed your father)".

Edited September 4, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I just realized... you know what version of The Evil Queen we haven't seen enough of?  The Evil Hag version!  Bring her on and ditch The Evil Queen.

[KingOfHearts]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

I just realized... you know what version of The Evil Queen we haven't seen enough of?  The Evil Hag version!  Bring her on and ditch The Evil Queen.

Actually, we did. In S1, Regina uses the hag disguise to manipulate Jefferson at a marketplace.

[Camera One]

Yes, that's the only scene, and rewatching it prompted me to make that comment.  To me, we haven't seen *enough* of that version, considering her major role in the original tale.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

Yes, that's the only scene, and rewatching it prompted me to make that comment.  To me, we haven't seen *enough* of that version, considering her major role in the original tale.

I agree. Other than apples, Regina is very much unlike her Disney counterpart. I don't think she is ever even addressed as "The Evil Queen" in the animated film. That's a moniker Disney adopted in order to brand her, as she doesn't have a real name. She's only known as "the queen".

We never got "who is the fairest of them all", either.

Edited September 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The only thing that struck me about The Hag was she looked nothing like Regina.  I know she's meant to look different (like in the animated movie), but if I hadn't known, I would have thought it was another actress.  There should have been at least one thing reminiscent about her.

[KAOS Agent]

Maybe the Evil Queen can be jealous of the "fairer" Regina and turn her into the Hag. Then Regina becomes the persecuted Snow White and the Snow White tale truly transforms into a story that's all about Regina. 

[Curio]

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EQ was absent for most of 5B, particularly when it was Regina/Robin/Zelena. 

We were discussing in another thread what parts of Regina's personality belong to the Evil Queen and which parts belong to "Real" Regina. I think the portion here that I quoted is making an argument that most of Regina's personality in 5B was "Real" Regina with very little influence by the Evil Queen part of her. But apparently, most of 5B was all an act because Regina admitted in the Season 5 finale that she hated doing good, so she was admitting that she hated feeling obligated to help out in the Underworld. Her initial reaction to Hook returning was to kill him, which seems like an Evil Queen trait, so Regina was probably resenting the fact that she was helping save Hook the entire time in the Underworld and only pretended to play nice. So is Regina's real personality selfish, or is that Evil Queen? Is the sass Evil Queen, or is it Regina? I'm struggling to figure out what Regina's personality would be like without any Evil Queen in her. Even in the Underworld where her character supposedly made strides, Regina was ignoring Robin and not empathizing with him about his daughter, which seems like something an Evil Queen would do.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Even in the Underworld where her character supposedly made strides, Regina was ignoring Robin and not empathizing with him about his daughter, which seems like something an Evil Queen would do.

I don't think Regina had any malicious intent when it came to Pistachio and Robin. It was a failure on her part to make poor choices against Robin's wishes, but the Evil Queen wouldn't want to be with him to begin with.

It's pretty easy to tell when the writers are trying to remind us Regina is the Evil Queen and when they want us to think she has changed. When she and Emma were popping root beers in 5B, that was Regina. When Regina was threatening Zelena in 5A, that was the Evil Queen.

Quote

 But apparently, most of 5B was all an act because Regina admitted in the Season 5 finale that she hated doing good, so she was admitting that she hated feeling obligated to help out in the Underworld. 

Which makes no sense and totally undermines her development. The writers went with the picture they drew in their minds, not what pen made on paper. It's a symptom of character resets.

Edited September 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's pretty easy to tell when the writers are trying to remind us Regina is the Evil Queen and when they want us to think she has changed. When she and Emma were popping root beers in 5B, that was Regina. When Regina was threatening Zelena in 5A, that was the Evil Queen.

The big issue is that Regina is the Evil Queen. All that's changed is her motivation. It's why she can threaten and go all crazy eyed when pointed at an acceptable target. It's not cool to target Snow or Emma anymore, but throwing fireballs at Hades and threatening Zelena is fine. She's softened a bit because she's found a place in the world whereas previously she was adrift and wanted others to suffer the same pain she was feeling. She has love and a family. She's now a part of Team Hero. However, she gets a bonus in that unlike Snow or Emma, she can attack and kill without being castigated as long as the target is suitably evil. Regina can go after them with all the dark power she has. If she'd killed Cruella, no one would have blinked. 

The problem with the Evil Queen/Regina separation they've got going on is that Regina remained the same while the Evil Queen is just a reversion to her previous motivations. Regina doesn't want to go after Snow, the Evil Queen does. Regina wears power suits, the Evil Queen likes her evil cleavage and elaborate hairstyles. With Jekyll/Hyde we see very obvious differences in personality such that we can tell they are different even beyond the physical. With Regina/Evil Queen all we saw is a costume change and a difference of opinion on who is a target and who is a friend. It's a nonsensical way to get the Evil Queen back.  If Regina became a sweeter, lighter version of current self while the Evil Queen was an all out sadistic, self gratifying, drunk on power freak show who doesn't care who she hurts to get what she wants, it would make more sense (and probably be a hell of a lot of fun to play for Lana). Instead, you get a few superficial changes with Regina on the right side while the Evil Queen is on the wrong side.

Edited September 20, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Curio]

8 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

When she and Emma were popping root beers in 5B, that was Regina. When Regina was threatening Zelena in 5A, that was the Evil Queen.

What's screwy is that when Regina was popping root beers in 4B, she was making fun of Emma's eating habits and was blaming an inanimate fucking object for all her problems instead of owning up to her past mistakes. And in 5B when the she was hypocritically threatening Zelena, the writers couldn't stop gushing about how awesome Regina was for being the person Emma trusted most with the dagger and praised Regina for taking away Emma's agency. The writers are going to make the Evil Queen do some dastardly things in Season 6, and I guarantee that some of those things will be acts "normal" Regina has already done within the past few seasons.

[Rumsy4]

Regina enjoying the feeling of controlling Emma should have been seen as an early sign that Regina was still enjoying indulging in her evil impulses, and not as redeemed as everyone wanted to believe. Instead, it was apparently a sign of friendship. TSTW. 

Quote

The writers are going to make the Evil Queen do some dastardly things in Season 6, and I guarantee that some of those things will be acts "normal" Regina has already done within the past few seasons.

Agreed. 

[Chaos Theory]

16 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Regina enjoying the feeling of controlling Emma should have been seen as an early sign that Regina was still enjoying indulging in her evil impulses, and not as redeemed as everyone wanted to believe. Instead, it was apparently a sign of friendship. TSTW. 

There is a difference between evil and darkness and although someone was having fun doesnt mean they were doing something malicious.   There is a reason Emma gave the dagger to Regina and not her parents.  I saw nothing inherently awful about that scene but then again I wasn't looking for one.

I am not looking forward to this seasons reasons to hate Regina posts.  She is my favorite character.

[Rumsy4]

19 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

There is a difference between evil and darkness and although someone was having fun doesnt mean they were doing something malicious.   There is a reason Emma gave the dagger to Regina and not her parents.  I saw nothing inherently awful about that scene but then again I wasn't looking for one.

Our definition of fun varies--especially when it comes at the cost of another person's distress. Emma gave Regina the Dagger because she thought Regina would be the one to stop her if she really did something evil. She didn't give it to her so Regina could get petty satisfaction out of controlling someone for the "right" reasons. 

[KingOfHearts]

 I am not looking forward to this seasons reasons to hate Regina posts.  She is my favorite character.

She's my favorite character too. The same wheels from the Marian debacle will be spinning. Sometimes I feel like people hate Regina for the writers' and Lana's poor choices in portraying her character. You could argue that she "becomes" what they do, but it's so inconsistent and illogical. I can't really blame the character for OOC moments. 

Which are the OOC moments? Her redemptive ones or her psychotic ones? 

[tri4335]

46 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

 

She's my favorite character too. The same wheels from the Marian debacle will be spinning. Sometimes I feel like people hate Regina for the writers' and Lana's poor choices in portraying her character. You could argue that she "becomes" what they do, but it's so inconsistent and illogical. I can't really blame the character for OOC moments. 

Which are the OOC moments? Her redemptive ones or her psychotic ones? 

I don't think that Regina has OOC moments!  She is a character who has redemptive moments and psychotic ones and both are true to the character. So I do believe that she was trying to help keep Emma on the right track but also that she enjoyed controlling her.  I think that Regina is a character that has many shades.  The issue I have with the writing is that in relation to Regina they don't allow any of the other characters to have IN character moments!  That is the problem with this show and why I get upset with how things are portrayed. All the other characters are sacrificed on the alter of Regina which makes it difficult to watch.  I'm fine that Regina does not want to acknowledge her most egregious actions but it bothers me that no other characters are allowed to call her on her BS, hell at this point I would take a scene that didn't involve Regina but at least pointed out the hypocrisy?  For example:

Grumpy: Why is the Regina here and why do we "have" to be nice to her? I mean she's the EQ and done horrible things!

Granny: You know that Snow forgives everyone and believes that everyone deserves a second, third or one hundredth chance. We're just going to have to live with it.

Grumpy: You know it sister!

Clicks beer mugs and end scene.

That would take 10 seconds and would go a long way to balancing the show. Instead the only POV we seem to get is Regina's and since that is the case, she will also get the most hate posts in reaction to that POV.

Edited September 20, 2016 by tri4335

[Curio]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

There is a difference between evil and darkness

What's the line, though? Are they synonyms? Are they totally different things? Genuinely asking, here. I could see darkness being slightly less worse than evil, I suppose, but it's still a sign that you're tapping into an unpleasant part of your personality. 

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

There is a reason Emma gave the dagger to Regina and not her parents.

In theory, the reason to give the dagger to Regina seemed logical in the premiere, but it's not what played out on screen the rest of the season. In 5x01, Snow was shown as being wrong for wanting to force Emma to do something by using the dagger and taking away her agency. Immediately after this, Emma decides to give the dagger to Regina, which implies that Emma didn't want Regina to do what Snow attempted to do a few seconds earlier. The only reason Emma gave Regina the dagger was because Emma thought Regina was the only one who could get past her feelings and do what was necessary to destroy her. (And that was only supposed to be a last case scenario if everyone couldn't save Emma.) Then, in the very next episode, Regina takes away Emma's agency several times and forces her to do something beyond her control. When you look at Emma's past and how she grew up, taking away that agency is a more serious issue than just a silly scene where Regina forces Emma to shut up on accident. Emma tells Regina to "never do that to me again," but Regina ignores Emma's words again and again and continues to use the dagger on her for multiple episodes. The more the season went on, the more it became clear that Emma giving Regina the dagger wasn't a better option than Emma giving it to her parents. Hell, giving it to Granny or Grumpy probably would have been better. The premiere set it up as if Regina was the perfect option over Emma's parents, but in the end, Regina didn't even need to come close to having to destroy Emma—all she did with the dagger's power was force Emma to do things she didn't want to do and took away her agency numerous times. You could even argue that Regina's abuse of the dagger ultimately lead to Robin's death and made Emma go further into darkness. It was actually Emma who ultimately had to get past her feelings and do what was necessary to destroy Hook in "Swan Song."

All of this wouldn't be as big of an issue for me if it was played off as Regina being in the wrong. I don't mind watching Regina get her hands dirty and playing more of a villainous role within Team Hero if necessary, but the show needs to clearly explain that what Regina did was ultimately wrong or dark or evil or whatever word you want to use. But they don't. It's apparently bad for Snow to want to control Emma with the dagger in 5x01. It's apparently bad for Emma to want to control Hook with the dagger in 5x10. But every time Regina used the dagger to control Emma, it was portrayed as being a good thing. Emma thanks Regina every single time she abuses the dagger's power and the writers praise Regina's decision in the episode commentaries. It's not necessarily Regina that frustrates me in this scenario, it's the blatant double standard the writers set up.

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Sometimes I feel like people hate Regina for the writers' and Lana's poor choices in portraying her character.

It's hard to detach Regina's character from the writers at this point because she's A&E's self-proclaimed self-insert character. I feel like I would enjoy Regina a lot more if I never fell into fandom culture and didn't realize all the writing implications behind the creation of the character. If I turned my brain IQ down a few notches every Sunday and just laughed at the camp, then she's a fun character. But I can't help but analyze things too much, and when you start reading more interviews, listening to episode commentaries, or thinking about the Red Shirts who never get a point of view on the show, that's where things fall apart for me.

The plus side is that Regina is a great character study for aspiring television writers because there's a lot of "what not to do" lessons to be learned.

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Which are the OOC moments? Her redemptive ones or her psychotic ones? 

It's a bit of both. Some of her nice moments seem OOC because the writers rushed parts of her redemption arc too quickly (for example, rushing Emma and Regina's friendship in Season 4 and never addressing the Graham Elephant in the room makes most of their scenes appear OOC), and her psychotic moments can also seem OOC because it's difficult to believe that someone who burned down multiple villages can get off scot free. The writers think that showing Regina (or any villain on the show) doing something super evil in the past means that her redemption is that much more impressive in the present, because going from 100 on the Evil Scale to 5 on the Good Scale is a much larger jump than going from 10 on the Evil Scale to 5 on the Good Scale...and surely more points = more redemption. I wish I could find the quote, but the writers basically admit they do this tactic on purpose because they think showing a flashback where the villain does something awful shows how far they've come in the present timeline. But when they show Regina killing a groom on his wedding day, it doesn't make me think Regina is amazing in the present, it makes me wonder why she's never been punished for that crime she committed. The same applies for the other villain flashbacks that go too far over the edge of the moral event horizon.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

It's a bit of both. Some of her nice moments seem OOC because the writers rushed parts of her redemption arc too quickly (for example, rushing Emma and Regina's friendship in Season 4 and never addressing the Graham Elephant in the room makes most of their scenes appear OOC), and her psychotic moments can also seem OOC because it's difficult to believe that someone who burned down multiple villages can get off scot free.

So basically she's a contradiction with legs... which would be fine if the show recognized she was. I think Rumple put it in a nice way: "You see, this is how it is. You think you’re the diner at the feast, tasting the offerings. A little love. A little darkness. What you don’t realize is, you are the feast. And the darkness has tasted you."

I found this exchange interesting from the S5 finale:

Rumple: "You know, I thought I could contain the darkness in one tiny corner of my soul. Far from Baelfire, then from Belle. And I always failed. You want to know why? Because I like the darkness. It's as much who I am as the light. Why can't you seem to grasp it's not either or?"

Regina: "Because I'm not like you. I don't like the darkness."

Rumple: "You can tell yourself what you'd like. But deep down, the Evil Queen is who you are. And the more you keep her locked inside, the more you're going to suffer."

Ok, so Regina says here she "doesn't like the darkness". If she doesn't like the light either, where does she stand? It's confusing. Rumple does have a point that all she's been doing is compartmentalizing. She hasn't dealt with the root of her problems and instead has faked it until she made it. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Chaos Theory]

I hated the Dark Swan storyline because instead of having Emma deal with the darkness inside of her the up and put inside of Hook and had him do the very bad thing.  They turned what was a fascinating story into a trite romance.  As for Regi a she will never be a whit e knight but that's what I like about her.  Honestly the thing she did with Emna and "making" her say I'm sorry I've done verdins of that with my sister it's piddling stuff that you do.  It's not even touching into Regina's darkness and lasted all of five seconds.  If she made Emma do something "bad" then I'd agree it was a bad thing but I d seen family shows that play up that same scene 

[Curio]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

So basically she's a contradiction with legs... which would be fine if the show recognized she was.

Exactly. If the show actually explored Regina as a character with legitimate issues, it would be really interesting. Instead, they decide to treat her evil side and good side as two different characters. And when you look at this quote from 5x02, it makes their decision to split her in two even more baffling:

Quote

Regina: Emma, listen to me. I know you. The good you is still in there.
Emma: You of all people know there are no good or bad versions of ourselves. It is just me.

Did the writers know they were going to split Regina at this point? Is this supposed to be ironic? Did the writers decide to ignore this line when they were brainstorming for Season 6? Why would Regina be the one person who thinks there are no good or bad versions of ourselves when she's the walking billboard on the show for having two separate identities? Emma's line should be switched to saying Regina is the last person to believe that.

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

It's not even touching into Regina's darkness and lasted all of five seconds.  If she made Emma do something "bad" then I'd agree it was a bad thing but I d seen family shows that play up that same scene 

Regina didn't make Emma do anything bad per se, but not listening to Emma's wishes and taking away her agency isn't good either. (Just like Emma not listening to Hook and taking away his agency when she turned him into a Dark One—while done for noble reasons—was still a bad thing.) It's also the amount of times Regina used the dagger on Emma that's concerning. If it was just one quick scene where Regina accidentally forced Emma to shut up, that's one thing. But Regina used the dagger to force Emma to stay silent while Regina took credit for being the Savior—something that Emma is barely ever thanked for—and was celebrated for being a fake Savior which ultimately lead to Robin's death and Emma's further descent into darkness, she used the dagger to force Emma to shut up again, she used the dagger to force Emma to thank her, and she used the dagger to force Emma to talk about a topic she didn't want to discuss at the well. Regina was also ready to use the dagger on Dark Emma right away in the premiere without even knowing what Emma did. When Emma tells Regina to "never do that to me again" in 5x02, the scene at the well later in the season takes on a completely different tone. Regina took it upon herself to force Emma to do these things without consulting Emma first, which is exactly what Snow wanted to do with the dagger. So why is Snow not qualified to use the dagger but Regina is? Regina wasn't necessarily doing malicious acts, but abusing the dagger that much was definitely a sign that Regina was slipping back into her Evil Queen role. We were supposed to view the scene where Emma used the dagger to control Hook without his permission as a bad thing, so why aren't we allowed to view Regina using the dagger to control Emma without her permission as a bad thing?

Edited September 20, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

25 minutes ago, Curio said:

Did the writers know they were going to split Regina at this point? Is this supposed to be ironic? Did the writers decide to ignore this line when they were brainstorming for Season 6? Why would Regina be the one person who thinks there are no good or bad versions of ourselves when she's the walking billboard on the show for having two separate identities? Emma's line should be switched to saying Regina is the last person to believe that.

they probably did because that wasn't the first line they had Regina say about the good and the bad parts of people. In 5x08, she said the same thing to Emma about she knew the "good" her. 

In the same episode, Hook was all about how Emma was still in there, while Snow said that there may not be an Emma left, and Regina was being kind of hopeful that they might be able to get Emma back. 

Regina and Snow when it comes to good and bad are very much alike. They see it as two separate entities which is why it makes sense that Snow was all for the split for Regina, the same way she was all about sucking the darkness out of Emma so that she would be a hero and not a villain. Never mind that the Apprentice told her that doing that meant nothing at the end of the day.

Edited September 20, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Never mind that the Apprentice told her that doing that meant nothing at the end of the day.

Emma and Rumple both got the "darkness" taken out of them and it didn't change anything.

[Curio]

11 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Emma and Rumple both got the "darkness" taken out of them and it didn't change anything.

And this is literally the main plot going into Season 6.

[Rumsy4]

46 minutes ago, Curio said:

So why is Snow not qualified to use the dagger but Regina is? Regina wasn't necessarily doing malicious acts, but abusing the dagger that much was definitely a sign that Regina was slipping back into her Evil Queen role. We were supposed to view the scene where Emma used the dagger to control Hook without his permission as a bad thing, so why aren't we allowed to view Regina using the dagger to control Emma without her permission as a bad thing?

The only answer is the Regina Exception Clause. There is no other reason for it. 

3 hours ago, tri4335 said:

I don't think that Regina has OOC moments!  She is a character who has redemptive moments and psychotic ones and both are true to the character. So I do believe that she was trying to help keep Emma on the right track but also that she enjoyed controlling her.  I think that Regina is a character that has many shades.  The issue I have with the writing is that in relation to Regina they don't allow any of the other characters to have IN character moments! 

Excellent points. While Regina is definitely on the road to redemption, she still continues to give in to Darkness without much struggle. When she was full-blown raving psychopath, she enjoyed controlling people with their hearts. When she is on Team Hero, she still likes controlling people. Except now she can do it under the guise of legitimacy. In 5A, she really enjoyed having the whip hand over Zelena. Magically forcing her to shut up, and keeping her in-check with threats of her being the Evil Queen. Controlling Emma with the Dagger falls under the same umbrella. She enjoyed having that control over Emma. 

I still hate the fact that Regina took credit for being the savior, and enjoyed being fussed over. If it was merely a question of protecting Emma, she wouldn't have loved being honored in that way. But she loved the attention, even though it was on false premises. How is that different from loving being the Evil Queen? This time, she gets to do it under the guise of doing the right thing. There's a pattern here. Regina's core persona of wanting validation and adoration and having control over others haven't changed. That's not to say she will still murder people like before. She has definitely moved on from that truly evil place, but she still has a long way to go.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Regina herself is a very complex character. I don't think the writers nor Lana have the skills required to portray her satisfyingly. They're good with the Evil Queen, but not with the character as a whole. Even though she is given a lot of attention, her potential goes unrealized. She could be very compelling and a great conversational piece. There are good intentions to write her with depth, but the severe lack of capability reaps a paradoxical mess. She's not anything easy to work with, that's for sure.

Edited September 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I'm still just really disappointed that we didn't get a sunny Regina after the injection - the reverse of the Snow White going after the bird in "Heart of Darkness". It would be super fun to have a suddenly chipper, ever hopeful Regina to counter the Evil Queen. I'd love that and I think Lana would totally rock both roles.

[Rumsy4]

Relevant to the various discussions we've had here. This following is a quote from Eddy. It's not a spoiler article, though they do talk a little about what's next for Regina in the context of losing Robin.

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I think Regina has the most unfair luck of anybody, but that's kind of what makes her Regina. (X)

[Shanna Marie]

I really don't see how they can be watching their own show and say that Regina has had the worst luck. She's lost two boyfriends, but otherwise she's spent her life in luxury and in power and has skated on the consequences for all the evil she's done. And the bad things that happened to her were worse for other people. Daniel got killed just for being in the way of Cora's ambition. Did he have parents and siblings who missed him? Regina may have loved Robin, but I would say that his death is worse for his children, who will grow up without a father. Roland was left orphaned at a very young age, but still old enough to know he's now lost both parents. So I'd say that Roland has more unfair luck than Regina, and he's only five or six. Then there's Emma, growing up being bounced among foster homes. Hook, sold into slavery by his father. Rumple was ditched by his father because his father wanted to be a kid again and then ditched by his wife, and then his son wanted to get away from him and he had to spend more than a century living with the fact that he'd failed his son. Just about every other character on the show has had worse luck than Regina.

I'd say that I mostly blame the writing rather than the acting for the failure of this character. I don't think Meryl Streep could convincingly play this character as written. How do you find any kind of inner truth in a character who is believed to be such a great hero that she deserves having the rules of the universe rewritten to give her what she wants even while she also wants to destroy other people's happiness and hates doing good, and who has never expressed any kind of contrition for the evil she did to the people who now think she's wonderful? How can you play someone who's a great hero who loves so deeply but who also has to constantly fight against hate, and hates doing so? That's not complexity. That's contradiction. I can totally buy her believing herself to be justified in what she did and deserving of all good things. That makes sense for the kind of character she is. I think you could act that, with the sense that there's a lot of self delusion going on. The hard part is the way everyone else acts around her so that the text is that she's right about herself, even while we're also being shown that she's wrong, but her being wrong isn't acknowledged.

11 hours ago, Curio said:

14 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

There is a difference between evil and darkness

What's the line, though? Are they synonyms? Are they totally different things?

I would say that darkness is the capacity and propensity for evil, while evil is actually doing it. So the darkness might give evil urges, but it doesn't become evil until it's acted upon. Dark Swan was dark because she apparently did have urges, but she wasn't really evil because she didn't act upon it. According to Liam, Killian has struggled with darkness all his life (though the way he talked about it, it sounds more like he was talking about depression), and he has that hot temper that he still struggles with. He was evil when he acted upon it. Now he might still have that darkness, but he's fighting very hard not to act upon it in evil ways, and it seems like the more he fights it, the less darkness he has. Rumple is filled with darkness, literally, but not everything he does is evil, although that seems to be his first instinct. With Regina, it's hard to tell. Apparently, according to her speech in the finale, she always wants to do evil and has to really fight the urge, and hates having to fight the urge, but she does fight the urge, so she's not currently evil.

[KAOS Agent]

In Birth, Regina seems to define the Darkness as "indulging every impulse, wielding great power, doing whatever you want." This implies that taking action is a part of the Darkness, not simply thinking about it. In an average person, that's basically going to make you a selfish asshole, but not really evil. So then it seems like the differentiation is in what the action is that takes it beyond darkness into evil. When you have incredible power combined with darkness, it's most likely going to lead to incredible evil.  Everyone has darkness inside them, it's what you give in to that separates the simple darkness from evil. For example, giving in to the darkness with something like selfishness doesn't make you evil, but murdering a mute maid is going to put you high on the evil scale. Maybe we should look at Darkness as a continuum with evil at the high end of the scale? 

I don't think the show has done a particularly good job of defining darkness as compared to evil because they sometimes use them interchangeably. It's even contradictory from Regina's point of view. There are several conversations she has with Emma in 5A where she tells Emma that she needs to be willing to let go of the Darkness. Then in the finale, she tells Emma that she doesn't understand the Darkness at all because she went up to the precipice, but was pulled back before it consumed her. Regina goes on to say that she was consumed by the Darkness. This is followed by her saying that she wants to give in to evil, but doesn't now because she knows it's wrong. And later she says that she has the curse of knowing good from evil and that if she continues forward being good, she has to live with her past darkness and the consequences of that. So early in the season, Emma was dark, but not evil, but in the finale, Regina is saying that Emma wasn't dark because in the conversation she's using evil interchangeably with darkness and Dark!Swan wasn't evil. It's this contradiction that causes confusion within fandom discussion. 

[Curio]

Quote

"I think Regina has the most unfair luck of anybody, but that's kind of what makes her Regina."

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier when I mentioned that I would enjoy Regina's character a lot more if I never discovered the OUAT fandom. If I was just a casual viewer and didn't read interviews, I'd have no idea that Regina was A&E's self-insert, I'd have no idea the entire show was created specifically around her character, and I'd have no idea about the giant biases the writers have toward her character. As a casual viewer, I wouldn't feel like I was forced to like her, and then I could form my own opinion about her without knowing what the show runners want me to think. It's like the more A&E try to convince me I should like her, the more I don't like her. If A&E had kept quiet and treated Regina like they do with Rumple or Hook in interviews, I don't think I'd have as big of a problem with the character.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Curio

[Joanh23]

Yes going forward I'm just going to ignore anything Eddy has to say about Regina.  If he thinks Regina is the most unlucky character on the show, and he is one of the show runners then there really isn't much hope!

[andromeda331]

I went the other way. My problem with Regina lead me to the OUAT boards. I wondered if other people were seeing what I was seeing, Beginning with the "sad" face after Charming family was reunited and went to dinner together for the first time 28 years. When Snow was being blamed for killing Regina's mother even though Cora was going to kill them. That she offered Regina her heart, the woman who terrorized her for decades, murdered her father, and God knows who else. I was getting angry because it was becoming clear I was suppose to be siding with Regina. That I was suppose to be proud of Regina and consider her a hero when she saved the town with the failsafe instead off remembering that she was going to do the very same thing. I wondered if anyone else felt the way I did. I originally stayed away from OUAT boards because I thought maybe most people sided with Regina she's a really popular character or maybe it just didn't bug people the way it bugged me. It was only reading posts on the UO I learned there were others thought the same thing.

I'd enjoy Regina more if she'd been on a real redemption instead of the quick and easy one, if she'd have remorse for what she did and apologize. Or if she'd just pick being good or being evil and stick with it or even if other characters were allowed to respond other then Regina cheerleaders. Would Emma really be doing shots with Regina, after her own boyfriend got his heart back? Would Snow really be wanting to talk about Regina-Robin and adultery while strolling along the way to save her daughter? Would Charming be teaching Regina to dance instead of Emma? He even had a dream about that.

[Rumsy4]

At this point, we have to accept that Regina is the writers' pet character. And Eddy in particular has foot in mouth disease. This is the guy who said "It’s just, you know, there’s just so many…there’s just so many people that it’s like, it’s sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina’s story. That’s just showbiz.” Are we really surprised that they feel Regina has had the "worst" luck of all? I really do think the writers are too close to Regina's character, and can't see her objectively. 

[YaddaYadda]

She might be the writers' pet character, but her writing is completely bipolar. Being a pet character isn't necessarily a good thing. I'd rather the writing for Rumple, or the way they are writing Hook over the way they write Regina any day of the week.

Edited September 21, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

1 minute ago, Rumsy4 said:

I really do think the writers are too close to Regina's character, and can't see her objectively. 

Regina was the first character A&E started playing around with when they were coming up with the concept of the show, so she's probably the one character who has been inside their heads the longest. But it's like Regina is still in the rough draft phase, where the artist is too stubborn to take objective critiques because they love their initial concept too much. At design school, that's the very first thing they teach you—your first idea is probably not your best idea. Sometimes it is, but oftentimes it can be better. It's especially hard to deal with critiques when it's your personal artistic vision, and since Regina is a self-insert character, A&E might see any critique about Regina's character as a critique about their writing or their struggles as Hollywood writers. 

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

"I think Regina has the most unfair luck of anybody, but that's kind of what makes her Regina."

Maybe sometime in Offscreenville, Regina, Captain Swan, Snowing, Granny and the dwarfs rented a party bus and went to a casino. While everyone else cleaned up at the tables, Regina lost her shirt. 

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 0:25 PM, Curio said:

Regina didn't make Emma do anything bad per se, but not listening to Emma's wishes and taking away her agency isn't good either. (Just like Emma not listening to Hook and taking away his agency when she turned him into a Dark One—while done for noble reasons—was still a bad thing.) It's also the amount of times Regina used the dagger on Emma that's concerning. If it was just one quick scene where Regina accidentally forced Emma to shut up, that's one thing. But Regina used the dagger to force Emma to stay silent while Regina took credit for being the Savior—something that Emma is barely ever thanked for—and was celebrated for being a fake Savior which ultimately lead to Robin's death and Emma's further descent into darkness, she used the dagger to force Emma to shut up again, she used the dagger to force Emma to thank her, and she used the dagger to force Emma to talk about a topic she didn't want to discuss at the well. Regina was also ready to use the dagger on Dark Emma right away in the premiere without even knowing what Emma did. When Emma tells Regina to "never do that to me again" in 5x02, the scene at the well later in the season takes on a completely different tone. Regina took it upon herself to force Emma to do these things without consulting Emma first, which is exactly what Snow wanted to do with the dagger. So why is Snow not qualified to use the dagger but Regina is? Regina wasn't necessarily doing malicious acts, but abusing the dagger that much was definitely a sign that Regina was slipping back into her Evil Queen role. We were supposed to view the scene where Emma used the dagger to control Hook without his permission as a bad thing, so why aren't we allowed to view Regina using the dagger to control Emma without her permission as a bad thing?

I think we are allowed to view Regina using the dagger on Emma at the well as a bad thing? Right after that moment, Regina is castigated by both Hook and Snow. I really don't get this argument that the show is trying to disguise all of Regina's dark side when there are moments like that. 

I didn't see most of Regina's use of the Dagger as evil anyway, personally. The scene at the well she is trying to force Emma to look past her insecurities because it's necessary and the Dagger was probably the only way for Emma to be honest.

[Curio]

11 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I think we are allowed to view Regina using the dagger on Emma at the well as a bad thing?

I know there's nothing stopping me from viewing it as a bad thing, but it's Emma's dialogue and the episode commentary which seem to give the impression that I was supposed to view that scene as Regina being "such a good friend" (as the writer of the episode described it). Snow was able to get Emma to confess she was a Lost Girl in Season 3 just by talking, so it's hard for me to believe that literally the only way to get Emma to confess she was afraid of a future with Hook was by taking away her agency. 

5 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Right after that moment, Regina is castigated by both Hook and Snow.

Hook: What she did was wrong. I'm sorry it had to happen.
Emma: It's funny. I'm not. She was right.

Hook might have said it was wrong, but Emma praises Regina's actions, so the writers wanted the audience to think Regina did the right thing. Even when Regina does something that should be seen as bad, the show gives her a gold star. If Snow, Charming, Henry, or Hook had done the same exact thing Regina did at the well to Emma, would the writers be praising them the same way they praise Regina? That's the double standard that rubs me the wrong way.

[TheGreenKnight]

Well, I don't really see what she did as that wrong, I just disagree that the show tries to keep the audience from interpreting it that way when Snow and Hook criticize her for it. It's the same in another episode in the present, I think, when Snow and Hook criticize her for jumping straight to the Dagger as a way to deal with Dark Swann.

[Camera One]

The message is... Regina is that rare sassy friend who is able to give her BFF tough love.  Hook and Snow were too overprotective to see that's what Emma needed.  

Edited September 24, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

The thing is that Regina didn't get Emma to actually do anything by using the dagger because Hook and Snow stopped her. What did get Emma to open up? Hook talking to her. Emma was begging Regina not to do what she was doing, which is why it bothers me that the writer of the scene was praising Regina's actions as being such a good friend. If Hook could just ask Emma what the problem was and work it through with her, then why is it that Regina needed to use force? Why didn't Regina try to talk to Emma for more than a second before whipping out a tool of slavery and forcing her to do something? 

I saw that scene at the time as them setting up a Regina reversion because she was very clearly projecting her feelings of loving power onto Emma. Emma had already rejected the power to get the flame. It didn't make sense that that was Emma's problem. Given the exhaustive dialogue of Regina's thoughts about darkness, good & evil and power and her difficulties with all of it in the finale, this scene works as evidence of those struggles - both by using the dagger as a tool of power (albeit for a good reason in her mind) and her talk about how good it feels to be Dark. What it does not show me is that Regina is Emma's best friend. 

[InsertWordHere]

I believe Emma also thanked Regina later on in Storybrooke for using the dagger on her. 

[Rumsy4]

Remember when Belle and Killian worked for weeks to get the fairies out of the hat, and Emma gave the credit to Regina alone? Or when Snow credited only Regina for saving them all in Neverland? 

[YaddaYadda]

That scene still rubs me the wrong way. It's like when Snow wanted to use the dagger in 5x01 and Hook stopped her because at the end of the day it was Emma's choice. 

If they wanted to show something different with Emma and Regina, they could have gone back to that scene in 4x22 with Emma and Regina in the AU when Emma told Regina that she just lost the man she loves and then spoke about her fears.

Even though Regina was projecting her own feelings about the darkness and the power onto Emma, she also knew that it wasn't it and that Emma was hiding. Regina could have easily spoken to her about what Emma told her in the AU.

The dagger was never needed for this.

[Curio]

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Even though Regina was projecting her own feelings about the darkness and the power onto Emma, she also knew that it wasn't it and that Emma was hiding. Regina could have easily spoken to her about what Emma told her in the AU.

I don't think Regina would have ever guessed Emma's secret had to deal with Hook. I think the point of the projecting was that Regina honestly thought Emma liked the darkness the same way Regina likes the darkness, but that wasn't the case. Regina claims she "really knows Emma," but in fact doesn't know Emma as well as she thinks she does. If Regina "really knew" Emma she wouldn't have needed to resort to enhanced interrogation techniques to get Emma to confess. Which is why it's confusing to me that the writer claims that scene proves how good of friends those two are, because if they were actually good friends, Regina wouldn't have needed to use the dagger at all.

I'd be completely fine with Regina being the wildcard anti-hero/grey villain who does shady things to do what needs to be done, but I need the writers and Emma to acknowledge that what Regina did was 100% shady. If Emma had admitted she hated what Regina did and didn't like getting her agency taken away, or if the writer of the episode recognized that what Regina did wasn't a sign of her being a good friend, I wouldn't be as frustrated. If they wanted to a write a scene where it showed Regina being shady and being a "good friend" to Emma, they could have had Regina using a fake dagger as a placebo to try and lure the information out of Emma. So instead of mentally waterboarding the information out of Emma, Emma would have been unknowingly giving up the information on her own. 

16 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I just disagree that the show tries to keep the audience from interpreting it that way when Snow and Hook criticize her for it. 

On this show, if the heroes say one thing, the writers usually go out of their way to prove the heroes wrong. So Snow or Hook saying one thing doesn't automatically mean we're supposed to agree with them. In fact, Snow saying something is bad is usually a sign that the writers want us to disagree with her. That's what happens on a show where the villains are the main point of view—the heroes often come off looking like the villains. At the end of the day, if the writer of "Birth" thinks the well scene was supposed to be about how awesome of friends Regina and Emma are, then that's what it's supposed to be. I can interpret it differently as an individual viewer, but that was the writers' ultimate intention, which means I'm interpreting their work incorrectly. So much gets lost in translation from paper to screen with TS;TW, and that's why we regularly get soundbites from A&E where they say something happened on screen, but some of the audience goes, "Wait, really? That's not how I interpreted it at all." Kind of like that quote about Regina having the worst luck.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

Quote

 

In fact, Snow saying something is bad is usually a sign that the writers want us to disagree with her.

Yes.  It was a great moment for Hook to show his faith in Emma at the end of the 5A premiere, but they even had Hook vocalize later in the arc that Snow didn't trust Emma when she tried to control her with the dagger to stop her from killing Merida, so only he had full trust in her.  But they never had Snow or Emma talking about it afterwards because who cares about them.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The humor from Regina is usually condescending and mean-spirited. I have a better idea - what if her humor stemmed from the fact she was aware of pop culture for 28 years? She could join Emma in making references or comparing the characters to their fairy tale counterparts. I've enjoyed her lines like, "I don't care if the Lollipop Guild is protecting her" or "Not that Liberace." The show tends forget she had full access to the Land Without Magic for nearly three decades.

Edited October 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The Evil Queen: I'm going to ruin your lives.  Bwhahahhahahahahahahaha.  Except I can only target one of you at any given time.  

[Curio]

I'm a little behind on the episode watching/discussion. Is it ever explained why  the Evil Queen doesn't just kill everyone she sees? Can she physically not kill anyone? Why does she elect to poof people places and make people fall asleep instead? She had the opportunity to kill Emma easily and just vanished her to the town line. Did I miss a critical line where she laments how she can't murder people so she has to resort to using only mental manipulation?

[Camera One]

The only "explanation" is having her say she can't wait to see everyone tear themselves apart.