Teen Wolf In The Media

[galax-arena]

The new season 4 opening credits!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9sMRWTbztg

 

Impressions:

 

1. Glad they changed up Tyler/Scott's opening. The previous one was a bit too Jesus-y for my taste. 

 

2. I'm annoyed that they have Arden after Shelley. Seniority, man. 

 

3. I wish they would have given Holland and Tyler H. new bits too. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by galax-arena

[Minneapple]

Sniff, I miss Allison. She was badass with the bow.

[blueray]

Not sure if this has been talked about on another thread but the panel is out on youtube. If so let me know. I loved how Dylan gave that crying girl his name tag, that was so sweet. And it was interesting to hear their responses to questions.

Edited July 27, 2014 by blueray

[FurryFury]

I'm too lazy to watch, but I heart there was some controversy about a fanfic being read there. Sterek shippers are furious (as usual).

[Yitzhak]

Maybe this thread could be retitled as 'Teen Wolf in the Media' or 'Teen Wolf events'?

 

Just a thought. Here's a link to the Comic Con stuff.

 

 

The panel was fun. Posey was especially outspoken and entertaining. I was pleasantly surprised that Shelley got a very positive reaction. Plenty of cheering for her, including when she was talking about her relationship with Stiles. So maybe the online Malia hate isn't an accurate representation of the overall fandom's feelings? I'm glad one of the fans asked about Danny too, though Jeff's answer was a little too vague to be all that reassuring. 

 

Wow, the fangirls really are crazy over Dylan, aren't they? I get that he's cute, but all the boys on the show are cute and they don't seem to inspire the same level of hysteria. I kinda feel bad for Dylan because in interviews he seems very self-deprecating and so I imagine that having fans sobbing and swooning in his presence must make him very uncomfortable. And the more he tried to be nice to the girl the more emotional she got!       

Edited July 26, 2014 by Yitzhak

[blueray]

I was surprised on how everyone cheered for Shelley.

 

I also just remembered I liked when a fan asked if the characters were based off of real people, and the whole cast turned to Dylan lol.

[Minneapple]

. I was pleasantly surprised that Shelley got a very positive reaction. Plenty of cheering for her, including when she was talking about her relationship with Stiles. So maybe the online Malia hate isn't an accurate representation of the overall fandom's feelings?

I was also pleased and surprised to hear the fans' reaction to Shelley. It's always a good reminder that Internet fandom =/= overall fandom.

 

Dylan O'Brien is such a woobie for the fans. He doesn't seem all that interested in the "teen heartthrob" role, but they love him anyway.

[superdeluxe]

I was pleasantly surprised that Shelley got a very positive reaction. Plenty of cheering for her, including when she was talking about her relationship with Stiles. So maybe the online Malia hate isn't an accurate representation of the overall fandom's feelings?

 

Like they would really let a negative reaction happen.

[Yitzhak]

Like they would really let a negative reaction happen.

 

There wouldn't be much they could do to stop it. I've seen fans expressing negativity at cons, it does happen. And even if Malia haters wouldn't be so rude as to boo Shelley they aren't obligated to cheer for her instead. 

[bettername2come]

Most of the Malia hate isn't directed towards Shelley, though, is it? I know some fans can't distinguish between character and actor, but she hasn't done anything to bother fans, has she?

 

Tyler Posey and Dylan O'Brien are awesome together. The best part of this was just watching Dylan react to the crazy things Tyler said. 

[Minneapple]

No, Shelley hasn't done anything to the fans. But as you say, some people can't distinguish between character and actor. Or there might be people who think booing or heckling Shelley is a proper way of letting Jeff Davis know they don't like Malia.

 

Tyler and Dylan are adorable together. Dylan just seems to have that easy, natural kind of charm. And Tyler is such a goofball. My favorite part of the panel was when someone asked Jeff Davis if any of the characters are based on real-life people, and everyone turns to look at Dylan.

[bettername2come]

I'm a fan of Tyler Posey just flat out asking Jeff Davis if Scott's Mexican.

[Yitzhak]

 

people who think booing or heckling Shelley is a proper way of letting Jeff Davis know they don't like Malia.

 

At one of the NY Comic Cons a group of fans were booing Jeff when he was talking about Stiles/Lydia and yelling out that they wanted Stiles to be with Derek. They wouldn't necessarily boo Shelley, but they could have booed or remained silent when Stiles/Malia were being discussed. Instead there was cheering. 

 

Dylan won Best Breakthrough Actor at the Young Hollywood Awards. It's looking like 2014 could really be his year. I'm glad he won this one because I was kinda miffed at Dylan being nominated in the Best Villain category at the TCAs. Dylan was entertaining (if a little hammy) in the Nogitsune role but he's always been more impressive playing Stiles. He should've been up for Best Actor or Best Scene-Stealer I think.        

Edited July 28, 2014 by Yitzhak

[Bruinsfan]

They wouldn't necessarily boo Shelley, but they could have booed or remained silent when Stiles/Malia were being discussed. Instead there was cheering.

As proven by the deafening sound of one person in the whole Wolf Watch studio audience clapping when Dylan was talking up the romance.

 

I'm glad to hear that Shelley was treated nicely by the fans at the panel. I hope that continues at the smaller show-specific events. Those seem a more likely place for the sort of fans that engage in tumblr shipping wars to make their displeasure known.

[benteen]

Not so much media news as it is cast news but did anyone see Dylan O'Brien in The Maze Runner?

[ahisma]

Here are a bunch of recent articles on LGBTQ in Teen Wolf. First was a puff piece in The Advocate that asked the actors how they felt about the portrayal of gay characters in Teen Wolf, and they were all very pro. The comments section eviscerates the show for promoting their gay friendliness more than having actual representation. (A telling point: eight main actors are interviewed and none have gay characters, unless you want to give Jeff credit for Stiles' teased bi curiosity).

http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/2014/09/08/teen-wolf-cast-weighs-lgbt-inclusion

The Geekiary took issue with the article, answer by answer.

http://thegeekiary.com/not-just-posey-the-whole-cast-thinks-teen-wolf-is-an-lgbt-gift/16756

After that, the original Advocate writer wrote a followup op ed in which he agrees that TW has gotten more disappointing over time on the issue.

http://www.advocate.com/commentary/2014/09/17/op-ed-trouble-teen-wolf

And then the Advocate writer talked to the Geekiary and explained that the Q&A was done early in s4, before he knew that gay storylines would be more back burner than ever.

http://thegeekiary.com/clearing-up-some-misconceptions-in-the-teen-wolf-fandom-with-jase-peeples/17126

[galax-arena]

I think Jeff’s concept of trying to create a show where there’s no homophobia is a good one, and we’ve seen it work in different ways on other shows. For example, there’s no racism in Star Trek – well, maybe between alien species, but not in the way we know it today.

At least Star Trek put its money where its mouth was by making Sulu and Uhura major characters.

[Atony]

To me the idea of Teen Wolf deserving a lot praise is silly and not surprised the fanbase called them out, yes it is nice it is a universe without homophobia, cool.

 

But looking at the television landscape there are tons of shows that have had important-to-the-plot well developed characters that were gay or bi.  Teen Wolf lags far, FAR behind them.  Which is silly because given their universe, any character could be gay and it wouldn't affect the way people treat or interact with them so having a main character be gay would have been incredibly easy for Davis.

 

Really a character like Danny is such a dinosaur in terms of representation.  During season one he just showed up to be gay and be accepted and for Jeff Davis to say "See?  No homophobia".  He was not a real character and had no real involvement in the plot, a pure tokenism.  Other writers have done infinitely better  (See Shameless, Glee, Grey's Anatomy, Scandal, Buffy, Brothers and Sisters, Orange is the New Black, Revenge, House of Cards, Game of Thrones, Southland, Faking It, Caprica, True Blood, Six Feet Under, Greek, Torchwood, The Wire... I'm sure there are more but my hands are getting tired)

Edited September 22, 2014 by Atony

[Bruinsfan]

Danny did have one useful scene in Season 1, when Scott danced with him at the Winter Formal to avoid being tossed out by the Coach. And he was a bit more involved in the plot during Season 2 thanks to Jackson being front and center. But he was always a minor supporting character on the show, hardly anything revolutionary/groundbreaking. And things that were nice little touches in those first couple of seasons have given way to rote obligatory scenes in the more recent ones.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Bruinsfan

[Yitzhak]

I'm a little irritated that the last interview from Geekiary didn't actually discuss the disappearance of Danny in S4 but (as usual) focused on the Sterek angle. It feels like every article Geekiary produces recently has an undertone of "Teen Wolf didn't give us Sterek. Now the ratings are dropping and it's because they didn't give us Sterek. We are calling out this show as being homophobic because it refuses to give us Sterek," and so on. I just think it's a shame that fan pleas for canon queer characters like Danny and Mason to become major players aren't half as loud as the pleas for Stiles and Derek to hook up. We've had this discussion on the ship thread, but again - I don't really feel like pushing for LGBT representation and pushing for a hot slash pairing should be considered the same thing.     

 

 

In addition to providing LGBT youth with characters that allow them to see a part of themselves reflected on TV, young straight people also need to see examples of young straight characters treating LGBT people in positive ways, and I give Teen Wolf a lot of credit for sending that message loud and clear.

 

I actually agree with this. I never saw TW as a queer inclusive show as much as it's a queer friendly straight show. Scott and Stiles in particular reflect a new generation of teenage boys who exhibit no hint of gay panic, who don't mind hanging out in gay clubs, dancing with gay guys, having gay guys be attracted to them, etc. I think that's fairly progressive in the teen show genre. Even in a show like Glee (that features major gay characters) they still make a big fuss over the straight male characters slowly learning to accept the gay characters. Casual locker room homophobia is still regularly featured in a lot of teen shows. But there's never been a hint of it on Teen Wolf.  

 

I'm still waiting for a proper explanation on why the writers ditched Danny in S4. It's a very weird decision, especially since they knew fans wanted more of his character. I feel like Danny could have had Mason's storyline in S4 and nothing much would have changed. The Liam/Mason friendship never made a lot of sense since Liam was supposed to be a transfer kid. They could've had Danny taking Liam under his wing instead.      

Edited September 23, 2014 by Yitzhak

[caseylane]

I think they felt that Danny was mostly tied to Jackson. Now they have Mason and Liam, the two athletes that are best friends and one of whom is gay. I think they want to finish whatever story they originally had for D-J. I also think they are trying to bring in some younger people in case the cast continues to leave like Colton, Crystal and Daniel. With Dylan's movie career really taking off they have to be looking at their options.

[ahisma]

I'm a little irritated that the last interview from Geekiary didn't actually discuss the disappearance of Danny in S4 but (as usual) focused on the Sterek angle. It feels like every article Geekiary produces recently has an undertone of "Teen Wolf didn't give us Sterek. Now the ratings are dropping and it's because they didn't give us Sterek. We are calling out this show as being homophobic because it refuses to give us Sterek," and so on.

The first Geekiary article linked was almost entirely about Danny, Ethan, Mason, and season 4 invisibility, with one short mention of Sterek related to Tyler Hoechlin. The last interview focused more on the overall topic of positive representation of queer characters in TW, and the one Sterek question was more from the direction of talking about MTV's PR department missteps rather than "we want Sterek."

I'm still waiting for a proper explanation on why the writers ditched Danny in S4.

Me, too! Jeff he said he didn't have anything more for Danny to do, and then he had a season that contained a computer mystery? Dude. It was beyond ridiculous that Danny wasn't even mentioned in Coach's first lacrosse meeting where he specifically name-checked players who'd left. I wonder if Jeff has learned his lesson about the ire of fans. He got put on the spot at SDCC and said we haven't heard the last of Danny, and that has spread like wildfire through fandom. Jeff is going to need to write in at least a token appearance in s5, and I hope Keahu takes full advantage to charge out the wazoo.

[Atony]

It was beyond ridiculous that Danny wasn't even mentioned in Coach's first lacrosse meeting where he specifically name-checked players who'd left.

 

That is what I found most insulting.  Not even that Danny wasn't used, but he didn't bother to mention that he was gone and I guess he just assumed people wouldn't notice or care that he disappeared without an explanation?  To be brutally honest I think Danny is a poorly conceived character and Keahu is a bit of a weak actor, but for someone that has been with you and the fans through every season so far that is a huge slap in the face.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Atony

[ElleryAnne]

Jeff is going to need to write in at least a token appearance in s5, and I hope Keahu takes full advantage to charge out the wazoo.

 

 

THIS. 

 

I'm a little ...

 

 

The first Geekiary article linked was almost entirely about Danny, Ethan, Mason, and season 4 invisibility, with one short mention of Sterek related to Tyler Hoechlin. The last interview focused more on the overall topic of positive representation of queer characters in TW, and the one Sterek question was more from the direction of talking about MTV's PR department missteps rather than "we want Sterek."

 

 

And this, too.

Edited September 24, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[blueray]

I was annoyed that they didn't mention Danny the whole season and barely mentioned Isaac too. Both are characters that the fans care about, and had been their for multiple seasons (Danny since the pilot).

[Bruinsfan]

Did they mention Isaac? I don't recall that at all. (Hell, I'm amazed that they remembered Allison died like 2 months ago for the characters on the show.)

[Yitzhak]

I think Coach might have made some acknowledgement that they no longer had Issac on the lacrosse team and that was all. No clarification at all about where Chris left Issac after 3b. Teen Wolf fans might need to invent their own version of 'Mandyville', the place where fans of the West Wing decided that characters went when they disappeared from the show without explanation.

 

At least with Allison and Issac we know the actors asked to leave the show. In Danny's case it's been implied that it was the writers decision to drop the character, because apparently they had no further story ideas for him. It just feels like they were shooting themselves in the foot - having already lost two popular characters they threw away a third fan favorite when they didn't have to.   

 

There's been murmurs that in S4 they were trying to reinvent Teen Wolf for a new fanbase, by clearing away a lot of old characters and bringing in a lot of new ones. There have been further murmurings that this includes TW no longer trying to appeal to its queer fanbase, but going for a more mainstream viewership with a bigger focus on het ships than it's had in past seasons. If this is true, I don't know where the show runners think these new fans are coming from. One suggestion has been that they were expecting a rush of new young fans after 'The Maze Runner' opened (it was originally supposed to hit cinemas in February). But if that were the case and they were counting on a growing Dylan O'Brien fanbase, it doesn't make sense that they gave Stiles so little to do in S4.

 

Whatever they were thinking, they seem to have acknowledged that losing Danny was a misstep, hence Jeff promising to bring him back. If they are correcting one unpopular decision they made in S4 then will they try to correct others?  

Edited September 28, 2014 by Yitzhak

[ElleryAnne]

If they are correcting one unpopular decision they made in S4 then will they try to correct others?

 

 

My guess is that no, unfortunately, they won't.  They'll bring Danny back because Jeff made that comment, but they won't fix the rest of the things they screwed up.  The attempts to change their own fanbase resulted in alienating a lot of fans (within the writing of the show, but also outside, as in MTV's media fiasco with dropping the Sterek Campaign name when awarding the group with the fan feat award).  Many of those fans aren't coming back, and I suspect MTV won't try to get them back - they'll just hope that by S5 they've appealed to enough of the straight white young male audience to make up the difference.  I don't think it'll work - it's a very rare feat for a fandom to successfully reinvent itself five seasons in.  So they'll continue to bleed ratings and die an ignominious death.

Edited September 28, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[Bruinsfan]

They might want to consider it's not just the Sterek fans they're losing. I've never thought the ship made any sense within the context of the show, but TV executives deciding that some of the audience are watching their show for the wrong reason and actively slighting them at awards shows, conventions, etc. is really off-putting. It hasn't made me stop watching Teen Wolf (my obsession with all things werewolf-y won't allow that), but it left such a bad taste in my mouth that I stopped occasionally tuning in to Awkward, and didn't bother to try Faking It. I imagine once the show has finished its run I'll have watched my last hour of MTV programming altogether.

[Yitzhak]

 

I've never thought the ship made any sense within the context of the show, but TV executives deciding that some of the audience are watching their show for the wrong reason and actively slighting them at awards shows, conventions, etc. is really off-putting.

 

I can understand the "watching for the wrong reason" argument to an extent though. Sterek as a romantic pairing doesn't exist in canon. From the TW creators perspective it probably feels like Sterek shippers are more fans of their own fanworks than the show itself. I hear there's been a lot of outrage recently that Hoechlin won't (or isn't allowed to) sign Sterek material at cons. But I think that's perfectly reasonable. The Derek in Sterek fanworks doesn't represent the character that Hoechlin signed up to play on the show. And if he did sign Sterek material some fans would use it as proof that the actor supports the ship. And apparently any positive hint that Sterek fans get from the cast or creators will later be thrown back at them and called queerbaiting.   

 

The cast have to support the show they work for first and foremost. And I get the feeling the cast/creators have been "put off" by certain fan responses too. The accusations of homophobia that some Sterek fans were aimed at Tyler Posey and even openly gay Jeff Davis are wildly inappropriate and probably very hurtful. And while that behavior probably doesn't come from all Sterek shippers or even the majority of them, it may make the creators very wary of this fanbase. To the extent where they feel safer saying nothing at all about the Sterek phenomenon, rather than talking about Sterek only to have fans or bloggers pick their words apart.

 

 

they'll just hope that by S5 they've appealed to enough of the straight white young male audience to make up the difference

 

This comment confuses me. Why do you think this is the new target audience? I'm sure TW has always considered teenage girls (of any race) to be their main viewership. And how are they appealing to a 'white' audience? If anything there's been more ethnic diversity in the main cast in later seasons with the addition of Arden Cho to the regulars, who had previously been all white besides Posey.    

Edited September 28, 2014 by Yitzhak

[ElleryAnne]

I can understand the "watching for the wrong reason" argument to an extent though.

 

 

I can't.  If I watch the show because I like certain characters, storylines, relationships, potential relationships, actors, scenery, costumes, imaginary crossovers with other shows,  or anything else,  I don't expect Tyler Posey or anyone else on the show to tell me I watch for the wrong reasons.  And when Jeff Davis spent more than a year baiting fans in assorted little ways, I don't expect anyone on the show to later shame fans of that pairing for liking the show for any reason.  

 

 

I hear there's been a lot of outrage recently that Hoechlin won't (or isn't allowed to) sign Sterek material at cons.

 

 

I've heard that signing Sterek material isn't allowed at some conventions.  If NO fandom or ship material is allowed, then I'm fine with it.  But if Sterek isn't allowed but other fandom or non-canon ship material IS allowed, then there's a double standard.   I don't go to cons so I don't know which way it's been going.  But I do know that there seems to be a ban on anything that might even be possibly interpreted in a Sterek-y way, and that's annoying.   No one's asking the show to cater to Sterek fans, but making them into pariahs is wrong.  

 

 

The accusations of homophobia that some Sterek fans were aimed at Tyler Posey and even openly gay Jeff Davis are wildly inappropriate and probably very hurtful.

 

 

Some of their words have been hurtful, too.  Fans don't appreciate their favorite ships being labeled bizarre and twisted.  But JD and the PTB are the ones that brought down the fourth wall and opened the conversations with the fans, so I'm not putting the blame on the fans for that.  Sterek fans supported this show and got bitten for their trouble.  

 

 

Why do you think this is the new target audience?

 

 

Because I watched the fourth season.  There's a definite shift in who their new target audience is.  Things like the faux-lesbian dance, the greater emphasis on het romance,   blowy-haired-Malia scenes,  Braeden in her underwear... there's definitely a higher ratio of things that are meant to appeal to the straight boys compared with previous seasons.

 

 

And while that behavior probably doesn't come from all Sterek shippers or even the majority of them

 

 

Probably doesn't?  DEFINITELY DOESN'T.  Every fandom has people who go over the top, but the entire fandom shouldn't be labeled based on that, any more than any other group should be based on the actions of a few.  Most Sterek shippers do not engage in bad behavior nor are they people the showrunner has to be wary of.    It isn't fair when Jeff Davis uses a segment of the fanbase to grow the show's ratings and then dismisses them, and then people blame the fanbase.   (I've been part of the fanbase for a long time, and I've seen how this stuff goes.  The Sterek shippers don't deserve the disdain they've gotten lately.)  Heck, after Posey's "bizarre and twisted" comment, a bunch of Sterek fans raised money to donate to a favorite charity of Posey's in his name, because they gave him the benefit of the doubt and thought his comment probably just came from a moment of frustration and they wanted to show that they still support him.  

 

 

If anything there's been more ethnic diversity in the main cast in later seasons with the addition of Arden Cho to the regulars, who had previously been all white besides Posey.

 

 

No, I think overall the show's diversity has nose-dived this past season.  I'm not looking only at the opening credits, but at the show overall.  Arden Cho had almost nothing to do all season.  Her parents were barely in it all season.  Danny went missing with not one word of explanation.  Mason was brought in to be a token and was given hardly anything to do.  What new characters DID get a lot of stuff to do?  Liam.  Malia.  Parrish.   None of them could have been POC?   None of them could have been anything other than het?  Braeden was brought in, stripped of her character and half her clothes, and turned into a generic love interest.  This show has nothing to be proud of regarding its diversity lately, ethnic or otherwise. 

 

Previous seasons may have had their problems, but they had at least a little more representation of a world that is neither all white nor all het than S4.  Danny, Boyd,  Ethan, even the possibly-bi Stiles (which apparently is not a possibility any more, though JD had admitted in the past that he was intentionally hinting at.)   There was plenty of room for improvement in the earlier seasons, but instead they went backwards in S4.

Edited September 29, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[Yitzhak]

 

even the possibly-bi Stiles (which apparently is not a possibility any more, though JD had admitted in the past that he was intentionally hinting at.)

 

Why is bi Stiles suddenly not a possibility any more? Because Stiles had a girlfriend in S4? In my experience, bisexual boys often have girlfriends seeing as girls are one of the two genders they're attracted to. There's been nothing to confirm or deny that Stiles could be bi in S4, anymore so than the possibility in previous seasons when Stiles was mostly just in love with Lydia. Jeff may well have hinted at the possibility of Stiles being bi and not acted on it (yet), but then Jeff has also hinted at a possible Sheriff/Melissa romance and never acted on that in canon either (it's safe to say a possibility from Jeff isn't a promise). I always thought it'd be fun for Stiles to get curious and have a fling with Danny. But ultimately I'm a Stiles fan based on his personality not his sexuality. As I've said before I think Stiles is a great representation of a questioning and queer friendly teenage boy, even if he does prefer girls.       

 

 

Fans don't appreciate their favorite ships being labeled bizarre and twisted.

 

I've seen Sterek fans say far worse things about the Stiles/Malia pairing and I'm sure they don't worry about hurting the feelings of fans who ship that pairing. Posey and the other actors are often badgered by fans and journalists to comment on TW ships and IMO they are perfectly entitled to express their own opinions (even if they are negative opinions) just as much as any fan can freely express their likes and dislikes. I get the feeling that most of the cast really don't care about shipping and find all the shipping drama in TW fandom rather ridiculous (which it is).    

 

 

I've heard that signing Sterek material isn't allowed at some conventions.  If NO fandom or ship material is allowed, then I'm fine with it.  But if Sterek isn't allowed but other fandom or non-canon ship material IS allowed, then there's a double standard.

 

I'd wager that the ban (if there is a ban) is for explicit material. Since Sterek is the biggest ship in TW fandom, Sterek fans have the most potential for bringing porny material to cons. And the fact is some slash fans take things too far. Dylan said in this interview a fan once gave him two condoms with "something graphic" written on them. More typically, some slash fans will bring along erotic fanart of the actors and want them to sign it at cons. It used to happen all the time at Lord of the Rings cons. Again, I'm sure this is just an obnoxious minority of slash fandom, but that sort of behavior tends to spoil things for everyone else. Con organizers won't want the actors to feel sexually harassed and some fans don't seem to realize that is what they're doing. Like you say, all fanbases have their segment of crazy creepy fans and Sterek fandom being so big means that negative segment is bigger too.      

Edited September 29, 2014 by Yitzhak

[Gwen-Stacys]

I can't.  If I watch the show because I like certain characters, storylines, relationships, potential relationships, actors, scenery, costumes, imaginary crossovers with other shows,  or anything else,  I don't expect Tyler Posey or anyone else on the show to tell me I watch for the wrong reasons.  And when Jeff Davis spent more than a year baiting fans in assorted little ways, I don't expect anyone on the show to later shame fans of that pairing for liking the show for any reason.

I both agree and disagree with you on this point. Mostly because I understand what Posey was trying to say (he just worded it very very badly). He, pretty much, said the same thing Tyler Hoechlin said (but Tyler was more careful in how he worded it.). Sterek is not a part of the show, and it never has been. Sterek would never willingly interact with each other if not for Scot McCall. They've grown to tolerate each other as the seasons have gone on, but they did NOT like each other in the first two seasons. Like at all. Stiles was willing to let Derek die in season 1 (and lets get this straight right now, Stiles is not an altruistic character in the slightest. He's a good person, but like most good people, his morals are slightly askewed in some places. Scot's the altruistic/caring/sensative one.) Sterek will never/was probably never gonna happen in canon, so if you are soley watching because you're expecting it's going to happen then you are going to be dissapointed. I think that's what he was trying to say, but he Regina George'd the execution of that statement. (i.e: Stop trying to make Fetch happen, it's not gonna happen)

 

I've heard that signing Sterek material isn't allowed at some conventions.  If NO fandom or ship material is allowed, then I'm fine with it.  But if Sterek isn't allowed but other fandom or non-canon ship material IS allowed, then there's a double standard.   I don't go to cons so I don't know which way it's been going.  But I do know that there seems to be a ban on anything that might even be possibly interpreted in a Sterek-y way, and that's annoying.   No one's asking the show to cater to Sterek fans, but making them into pariahs is wrong.

 

If my memory serves me correcctly, most coventions only allow official memorabilia to be signed. Maybe they were lenient in the past and decided to tighten up on it. Or maybe the actor's aren't so into it (Kinda of like Jensen and Destiel on Supernatural) and they just decided to ban all fanart (which is what most conventions do) so as not to step on any toes? Actors can and will sign whatever they want to, tbh.

 

Some of their words have been hurtful, too.Fans don't appreciate their favorite ships being labeled bizarre and twisted.  But JD and the PTB are the ones that brought down the fourth wall and opened the conversations with the fans, so I'm not putting the blame on the fans for that.  Sterek fans supported this show and got bitten for their trouble.

 

I understand this, but it still doesn't excuse what some of these people have said to the actors/creator/writers. Just because they don't agree with something a certain part of fandom believes in (and are probably beyond annoyed of having to answer questions about it by now) doesn't give that part of fandom the right to bombared their twitters, and often their mother's twitters, with nasty comments. Two wrongs don't make a right and one wrong does not escuse another.

 

Because I watched the fourth season.  There's a definite shift in who their new target audience is.  Things like the faux-lesbian dance, the greater emphasis on het romance,   blowy-haired-Malia scenes,  Braeden in her underwear... there's definitely a higher ratio of things that are meant to appeal to the straight boys compared with previous seasons.

 

Not really though? They've had naked Lydia in the forest, Naked Lydia in the shower, Allison in her bra (multiple times), upskirt camera angles of Allison, shots of Allison's legs, Blowie haired Kate/Allison/Cora/Lydia/Jennifer/Cali scenes, Erica boob shots, etc etc. The whole two girl's dancing thing I thought was natural (albeit a little baity). Girls usually dance with each other when they go to clubs irl. We call it the inpenitrible circle. And maybe instead of catering to straight males (who do watch the show), they're catering to the non-straight female fans. TW has a predominately female fanbase, this makes more sense to me than the straight boy baiting.

 

No, I think overall the show's diversity has nose-dived this past season. 

Agree to disagree on this one. Teen Wolf season 1-2 was very white-washed. And most people assumed Posey was white until they came out and said "Uh....he's Latino. He even played J-lo's son once." Teen Wolf didn't have a steady WOC really until season 3 with Arden Cho and the actress that played Cali (which is huge, because Asians as a whole are grossly underrepresented on TV.). Season 4 we had 2 black females (even though one died). Before that there was Boyd in the main group. That was it.

[ElleryAnne]

Why is bi Stiles suddenly not a possibility any more?

 

 

Technically I suppose it could be true still,  but Dylan made a comment recently dismissing it all as just a joke.  So it seems that he doesn't think the hints about Stiles being possibly bi are intended to go anywhere. 

 

 

I've seen Sterek fans say far worse things about the Stiles/Malia pairing and I'm sure they don't worry about hurting the feelings of fans who ship that pairing.

 

 

Most of the criticisms I've seen about Stiles and Malia have to do with the way they've written Malia, and with the way the hook-up between Malia and Stiles in Eichen House went down and how legitimately disturbing a lot of people (myself included) found that to be because of the mental state of the two of them at the time.  I'm not sure why the "hurting feelings" stuff.  Fans argue passionately about ships. Often most passionately about non-canon ships.  For the most part, they understand it's not targeting the fans themselves, so it's not a hurt-feelings thing. 

 

 

IMO they are perfectly entitled to express their own opinions (even if they are negative opinions) just as much as any fan can freely express their likes and dislikes.

 

 

Absolutely.  And I would argue anyone who says he doesn't.  But that doesn't mean that fans can't respond back.  And if they say things that hurt his feelings then that's too bad for him.  He's a professional.  His statements to the media impact ratings for the show when he alienates fans.  He doesn't get to say things and then get a pass on them.  

 

 

And the fact is some slash fans take things too far.

 

 

Again, so do some fans of straight ships.  Sterek is the biggest ship fandom in the greater TW fandom, so there may be a proportionately higher number of people taking things to far.  But that doesn't mean slash ships in general are somehow worse than straight ships, or that Sterek fans are worse than other fans. 

 

 

Again, I'm sure this is just an obnoxious minority of slash fandom, but that sort of behavior tends to spoil things for everyone else.

 

 

True, and it bugs me because it leads to people who don't know better (definitely not meaning you, no worries :) ) the excuse of labeling the entire fandom, when in fact the Sterek fandom as a whole is very good.  

 

 

More typically, some slash fans will bring along erotic fanart of the actors and want them to sign it.

 

 

And I wish they didn't, because you never know who may be uncomfortable with it.  But I wish they wouldn't do it with straight erotica, either, because I'm sure some of the actresses don't appreciate being depicted explicitly either.  As I said, I don't have a problem with the ban if it's on all ship stuff, or all non-official stuff.  I just don't want to see Sterek singled out for banning in a double-standard

[galax-arena]

The accusations of homophobia that some Sterek fans were aimed at Tyler Posey and even openly gay Jeff Davis are wildly inappropriate and probably very hurtful.

As mean as this makes me sound, I don't really care about Posey or Davis' feelings, and Davis at least deserves to be called out on the (IMO) queerbaiting he did in earlier seasons, but the reason this sort of thing bothers me is that I haven't just seen it directed at the cast and crew, I've seen accusations of homophobia being directed at other viewers who don't ship Sterek, which is ridiculous because very often those viewers ship other m/m or f/f couples and are big advocates for Danny. To me it feels like a number of Sterek fans are appropriating LGBT rights/struggles for their own purposes, like they want to make it (Sterek) something bigger than what it is. It reminds me of how some Kirk/Spock shippers tried to make an entire movement around making them canon in the name of LGBT equality. How about making other gay ships on Star Trek happen instead? Er, no, those wouldn't count! Why? Just because! The truth is that a lot of people just want to see these two particular hot guys fucking. It's no more progressive than all those guys who think that girl-on-girl is hot.

 

Same for SwanQueen on Once Upon a Time. SwanQueen for LGBT equality! Hey, what about Sleeping Warrior? Didn't Mulan sorta come out? Well, she doesn't count because she's butch and a stereotype. Plus, she's a minor character. Okay, well, why not advocate for her to get more screentime instead? After all, Jamie Chung has said she'd be willing to come back. Nope, she still doesn't count. Why? Because reasons. But why? Because fuck you, that's why. 

 

Note, I'm not saying that people are obligated to ship Sleeping Warrior or Scerek or what have you. Ship what you want to ship. But if you're (general you're) that dismissive about other queer couples, then just admit that it has less to do with stumping for gay representation and more to do with what you find hot/personally appealing.

 

Disclaimer: #notallsterekfans #notallkockfans #notallswanqueenfans

Edited September 29, 2014 by galax-arena

[Yitzhak]

 

For the most part, they understand it's not targeting the fans themselves, so it's not a hurt-feelings thing.

 

That's what I was getting at though. Many fans did take Posey's comments personally, saying he was calling fans themselves "weird and twisted" rather than the ship. As Gwen said, I don't think fans should be excused for responding with personal attacks. To me, it's hypocritical to demand careful diplomacy from celebrities yet consider it fair play for fans to respond with full-on insults and accusations.    

 

 

And maybe instead of catering to straight males (who do watch the show), they're catering to the non-straight female fans. TW has a predominately female fanbase, this makes more sense to me than the straight boy baiting.

 

In S4, the scantily clan men on the show still massively outnumber the scantily clan women. The shirtless boys on the show appeal to the het female and gay male fanbase, so yes, why shouldn't the reverse be true? I know I've encountered plenty of lesbian/bi female fans in TW fandom. 

 

 

Season 4 we had 2 black females (even though one died). Before that there was Boyd in the main group. That was it.

 

Don't forget Meredith, a mixed race actress in a significant S4 role. There was Liam's stepdad too. And Deaton's still around. And the Calaveras keep showing up. I also think that more effort has been put into the show's cultural diversity in later seasons, particularly in 3b with its whole story arc around Japanese mythology. There was still a lapse in queer representation which Mason and Lydia's lesbian grandmother didn't much compensate for. That said, with the talk of Brett returning in S5, I predict Mason/Brett will be an upcoming ship. So they haven't entirely dropped the ball but I've always felt TW queer representation was over-hyped from the start.

 

 

But I wish they wouldn't do it with straight erotica, either, because I'm sure some of the actresses don't appreciate being depicted explicitly either.

     

It doesn't seem to be the issue in TW fandom though. It seems like the TW actresses mostly have to put up with hateful attacks from jealous fangirls or shippers who resent them for coming between their pairing of choice - be it het or slash. It's the male actors who deal more with being objectified by fans. Which admittedly has been encouraged by the show's flaunting of naked male torsos. But even Dylan who never strips off in the show gets hounded to take his shirt off at fan events. Even as a joke, it's rather crass.

 

 

Dylan made a comment recently dismissing it all as just a joke.  So it seems that he doesn't think the hints about Stiles being possibly bi are intended to go anywhere.

  

Again I think Dylan's words have been overly scrutinized and in articles like this one the importance of Stiles possible bisexuality is all boiled down to being a Sterek stepping stone. And most of the so-called canon hints about Stiles being bi have come from jokey scenes. The Stiles & Danny scenes in particular are really funny, but maybe that's because I interpret them as being a savvy experienced gay guy getting exasperated with the clueless bi-curious-but-probably-straight virgin. Dylan does say that Stiles is open-minded about sexuality which is obviously true. But even if Stiles was confirmed as bi in canon, I think fans exaggerate the significance it would have and they would complain even more if Stiles hooked up with a guy who wasn't Derek.    

 

 

I've seen accusations of homophobia being directed at other viewers who don't ship Sterek, which is ridiculous because very often those viewers ship other m/m or f/f couples and are big advocates for Danny. To me it feels like a number of Sterek fans are appropriating LGBT rights/struggles for their own purposes, like they want to make it (Sterek) something bigger than what it is.

 

Yes, I feel this too. Personally I think romantic Sterek is a very bad story idea and that has nothing to do with it being an m/m pairing. There are plenty of well-written gay and lesbian love stories on TV these days which I watch and support. I've never seen any convincing suggestions from Sterek fans that a Derek and Stiles romance could actually be a good storyline, only the chemistry and the hotness.    

Edited September 29, 2014 by Yitzhak

[ElleryAnne]

That's what I was getting at though. Many fans did take Posey's comments personally, saying he was calling fans themselves "weird and twisted" rather than the ship.

 

 

That's something different, though.  The comparison to Stalia was fan-on-fan discussion.  Posey, an actor on the show, should probably be a bit more careful when butting in and answering questions that were aimed at someone else.  Can he say whatever he wants?  Of course.  But it has a different impact on the fans.  Especially when some fans will pick up the tone of what he's saying, and not merely the literal words.  That said, as I mentioned earlier a lot of fans recognized that he might have been speaking from exhaustion, frustration or anything else that could be interpreted as less negative, because they didn't want to believe he was so dismissive of them. 

 

 

In S4, the scantily clan men on the show still massively outnumber the scantily clan women. The shirtless boys on the show appeal to the het female and gay male fanbase, so yes, why shouldn't the reverse be true? I know I've encountered plenty of lesbian/bi female fans in TW fandom.

 

 

I'm not saying they whether they should or shouldn't try to appeal to different groups of fans.  I'm saying it appears they changed the target demo to focus much more on the straight white boy segment.  Hence the toning down of anything that might seem male non-het (and we'll see what happens with Mason/Brett if it ever does, but I can only base my opinion on what I've seen, not what I hope will happen next year) and inclusion of plenty of het and cute girl scenes.  And if they wanted to appeal to the lesbian fans, they'd hint at more of a relationship somewhere, or they'd have given more than a line to the story of Lydia's grandmother.  The rubbing-boobs club dance wasn't aimed at the lesbian audience - it was aimed at the straight boys.  They figured they already had the other segments of the audience (young women and gay fans) on board.  I think it's probably been a surprise to them to discover that some of those fans wouldn't blindly go along with them when they decided to boast about how great they are with the representation when they're not - hence the negative remarks in the articles posted upthread, and the lower ratings.

 

 

I also think that more effort has been put into the show's cultural diversity in later seasons, particularly in 3b with its whole story arc around Japanese mythology.

 

 

I will give them credit for attempting something good there, though I know people who were offended at the way the story was handled.  Still, that was 3B, not S4. Meredith?  Carried along from 3B.  But at least they gave her something to do this season, I suppose.  Deaton isn't new to S4 - he's been around from the start. So I don't see him as proof of better diversity in 4. (His sister, and also Kali as mentioned above, would count towards earlier seasons but not this one.)  Liam's dad and the Calaveras?  Yeah, okay.  Not major characters, and barely in it all season, but okay.  I still say S4 is weaker overall concerning diversity, but we can agree to disagree.

Edited September 29, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[Gwen-Stacys]

Technically I suppose it could be true still,  but Dylan made a comment recently dismissing it all as just a joke.  So it seems that he doesn't think the hints about Stiles being possibly bi are intended to go anywhere.

 

I think Dylan wants to have a big movie career, chances are he might not want/is being encouraged by his "people" not to go in that direction with his acting yet. Male actors that are out of closer/play gay characters in the beginning of their careers tend to get pigeon holed. Look at Matt Bomer, he was the front runner for Clark Kent (even though Henry Cavill was perf) until he came out. So maybe that was their plan originally, which is why they dropped hints for it throughout the first 2 seasons. But then they Xandered him (Xander was supposed to be gay in the later seasons and they dropped hints about it a la Stiles, but then they decided to make Willow the gay one instead).

 

 

Most of the criticisms I've seen about Stiles and Malia have to do with the way they've written Malia, and with the way the hook-up between Malia and Stiles in Eichen House went down and how legitimately disturbing a lot of people (myself included) found that to be because of the mental state of the two of them at the time.  I'm not sure why the "hurting feelings" stuff.  Fans argue passionately about ships. Often most passionately about non-canon ships.  For the most part, they understand it's not targeting the fans themselves, so it's not a hurt-feelings thing.

 

You'd be very very very surprised. Don't go to any anti-tags on tumblr, or you'll see why most people choose to stay out of fandom. Any fandom. There are posts about how "Fat" Malia is or that she's abusive (ironic since most of Sterek's earlier interactions are violent), etc etc. Or that her (and Braeden's) only purpose is to be the love interest. And to that I say read this lovely article here

 

 

Again, so do some fans of straight ships.  Sterek is the biggest ship fandom in the greater TW fandom, so there may be a proportionately higher number of people taking things to far.  But that doesn't mean slash ships in general are somehow worse than straight ships, or that Sterek fans are worse than other fans.

 

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly! Every fandom has that ship. Sterek just happens to be that ship for TW, unfortunately for it's shippers.

 

And I wish they didn't, because you never know who may be uncomfortable with it.  But I wish they wouldn't do it with straight erotica, either, because I'm sure some of the actresses don't appreciate being depicted explicitly either.  As I said, I don't have a problem with the ban if it's on all ship stuff, or all non-official stuff.  I just don't want to see Sterek singled out for banning in a double-standard

From what non-shippers say of the TW conventions, it's not just Sterek. If it isn't official TW merchandise, they don't sign. A lot of conventions even warn this on their event websites. Most people just never bother to check and then cry about later.

[ElleryAnne]

I think Dylan wants to have a big movie career, chances are he might not want/is being encouraged by his "people" not to go in that direction with his acting yet. Male actors that are out of closer/play gay characters in the beginning of their careers tend to get pigeon holed. Look at Matt Bomer, he was the front runner for Clark Kent (even though Henry Cavill was perf) until he came out. So maybe that was their plan originally, which is why they dropped hints for it throughout the first 2 seasons. But then they Xandered him (Xander was supposed to be gay in the later seasons and they dropped hints about it a la Stiles, but then they decided to make Willow the gay one instead).

 

 

Very possible.  I realize some actors or their reps have to be concerned that being or playing gay could be detrimental to their careers.  It's a shame, but it's unfortunately true. 

 

 

There are posts about how "Fat" Malia is or that she's abusive

 

 

I think the writing and the pre-season interviews contributed to the "abusive" part.  But the "Fat" comments are uncalled for. People can challenge anything about the characters, the writing, etc., but they shouldn't be targeting or shaming the actress.  

 

 

Or that her (and Braeden's) only purpose is to be the love interest.

 

 

Unfortunately, in Braeden's case especially,  they did turn her into just a love interest.  It annoys the dickens out of me, because Braeden was a great BAMF and she deserved better treatment from the writing than what she got.  But there's also little doubt that Malia's main purpose is to be a love interest to Stiles at this point.  They could have done so much more had they bothered to explore her relationships with her father and Peter, but they clearly only wanted to increase the het romance on the show.  I don't blame Shelley Hennig for that at all - I think it's a fault of the writers.  She, like Megan, deserved better than that.  The fault is with JD.

Edited September 29, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[Gwen-Stacys]

 

I think it's probably been a surprise to them to discover that some of those fans wouldn't blindly go along with them when they decided to boast about how great they are with the representation when they're not - hence the negative remarks in the articles posted upthread, and the lower ratings.

 

Nah, Teen Wolf started out the season with a lower viewer rate and then the season followed the trend that the other TW seasons had before them (season 1 not withstanding) where they start higher and end lower. It happens. This season started out low because of the loss of Allison, a lot of people quit because Allison was gone. And also some people weren't so enamored with 3b. It had it's fair share of plot holes (same as any other TW season)

 

I will give them credit for attempting something good there, though I know people who were offended at the way the story was handled.  Still, that was 3B, not S4. Meredith?  Carried along from 3B.  But at least they gave her something to do this season, I suppose.  Deaton isn't new to S4 - he's been around from the start. So I don't see him as proof of better diversity. (His sister, and also Kali as mentioned above, would count towards earlier seasons but not this one.)  Liam's dad and the Calaveras?  Yeah, okay.  Not major characters, and barely in it all season, but okay.  I still say S4 is weaker overall concerning diversity, but we can agree to disagree.

 

You're forgetting Braeden who actually has emotional attachment to someone inside the core group and is non-magical/supernatural. A lot of people are excited about her because she doesn't fall into the "magical negro" trope a la Deaton and Morrell. She's a kick ass character who has a story outside of the group but will also help further the story. She taught Derek how to defend himself as a human and showed him he wasn't helpless, no other character barring Argent could've helped him with this, and Argent was too busy mourning and dealing with his sister. Next season it's being teased that she'll have a lot to do with the Desert Wolf story-line.

[Gwen-Stacys]

Unfortunately, in Braeden's case especially,  they did turn her into just a love interest.  It annoys the dickens out of me, because Braeden was a great BAMF and she deserved better treatment from the writing than what she got.  But there's also little doubt that Malia's main purpose is to be a love interest to Stiles at this point.  They could have done so much more had they bothered to explore her relationships with her father and Peter, but they clearly only wanted to increase the het romance on the show.  I don't blame Shelley Hennig for that at all - I think it's a fault of the writers.  She, like Megan, deserved better than that.  The fault is with JD.

You should really read that article I linked you to. She hit every reason why the group think of "Malia and Braeden are only love interests!" never sat well with me. Malia had more of a SL this season than her lover did. If anyone was the love interest in that ship, it was Stiles. Outside of Stiles, Malia struggled with her coyote instincts vs the human ones she was meant to have, she found out that she was adopted, she dealt with the guilt of having killed her mother and sister (a carry over from season 3b), she found out that her father is a bad person in the most brutal way possible, she found out that her mother might be an assassin and had to deal with the prospect that she's genetically predisposed to being evil, she found a family in the Stilinski's etc etc. Was it handled perfectly? Fook no! But then this is a show written by a person who though having a funeral for a beloved character would be boring and taking away from the story.

 

Braeden has an identity outside of Derek, but she's not a main character and therefore won't get as much time as someone like Malia might. We found out that she's a US Marshal (still has her badge) turned bounty hunter (who still has not killed anyone onscreen). We know that she has pretty decent knowledge of supernaturals, knowledge that she might have gained while obsessively searching for The Desert wolf. She has a story and her purpose this season was to be Derek's Mr. Miyagi with a shotgun. 

[ElleryAnne]

Teen Wolf started out the season with a lower viewer rate and then the season followed the trend

 

 

IDK, they started the season with 2.184, which is about typical for them for a season opener.  Then they dropped a greater percentage than they've dropped in previous seasons, and they never recovered.  Previous seasons usually see a tick back up towards the end of the season, but S4 finished with 1.543, which is their lowest rated season finale.  Their overall average for the season was lower than any other season (including 1), as well.  And while some of that can be attributed to fans watching in different ways, some of it is also just fans giving up on the show altogether.

 

 

Malia had more of a SL this season than her lover did. If anyone was the love interest in that ship, it was Stiles.

 

 

Only because Stiles had NO real story line this season.  Malia existed primarily as Stiles' gf for nearly the entire season.  The story that should have been told about her was very much treated as a minor toss-in instead.  Her struggles with school and coyote-ness and everything else took only a handful of minutes.  Yet even as of the end of the season, we don't know where she lives for sure, because they gave us so little about her personally while showing her attached to Stiles as the main thing about her.  The article you linked is trying to put a positive spin on it, but I think it's just making excuses for really bad writing for the character.  

 

 

We found out that she's a US Marshal (still has her badge) turned bounty hunter (who still has not killed anyone onscreen). We know that she has pretty decent knowledge of supernaturals, knowledge that she might have gained while obsessively searching for The Desert wolf.

 

 

The badge bit was thrown in during the last ten minutes of the season.  The knowledge of supernatural creatures is a carryover from an earlier season.  During S4, she had nearly nothing to do other than train Derek in using a gun for five minutes and spend time in bed with him.  She should have been out there hunting for Kate, but we never saw that, because they only really wanted her around for one reason.  This season, Braeden was primarily a love interest and not much more.  Now, have they set her up to be more next season?  Maybe.  I hope so.  I'll believe it when I see it.  But for S4, I'm afraid they're right when they say she and Malia were only love interests.   

 

this is a show written by a person who though having a funeral for a beloved character would be boring and taking away from the story.

 

 

 

And that says so much about what's wrong with how JD sees the show vs. how some of the fans do, and why he'll probably continue to see the ratings go down.

[FurryFury]

Lydia's lesbian grandmother

Sorry about offtopic, but why did you think she was lesbian? I don't think having a close female friend was enough of an implication. Of course, I may have missed something - I'm not the most attentive viewer when it comes to this show.

 

I think the comparison of Sterek with Swan Queen of OUAT fandom is spot-on. The favorite tactic of many of their shippers is accusation of homophobia and trying to find faults with the canonical partners of the characters. Although at least Sterek shippers don't seem to attack the very actors playing their favorite characters because of their tweets... or maybe they do, and I just haven't seen it yet. Anyway, trying to cover your shipping with social justice issues is a very, very popular tactic in fandoms nowadays.

[Gwen-Stacys]

IDK, they started the season with 2.184, which is about typical for them for a season opener.  Then they dropped a greater percentage than they've dropped in previous seasons, and they never recovered.  Previous seasons usually see a tick back up towards the end of the season, but S4 finished with 1.543, which is their lowest rated season finale.  Their overall average for the season was lower than any other season (including 1), as well.  And while some of that can be attributed to fans watching in different ways, some of it is also just fans giving up on the show altogether

.

I'll give you that, but still maintain that it started out lower than season 3 (and could even be contributed to the fact that season 3 was during the normal tv watching fall-spring viewing time and not the Summer season.). I could also write you a paper on how poor an approach the Nielson rating system is to accuratly gauge a shows viewership (and I have for school). Most networks are now more into looking at their social networking q scores during viewing times, TW is still about where they've been the last few seasons. Viewership dropped, but not as drastically as people are trying to make it out to be. And still pretty high for an MTV serial.

 

Only because Stiles had NO real story line this season. 

 

So wait, are you agreeing with me? Stiles' only purpose this season was to, essentially, be there for Malia and to miss Malia when she (rightfully) blew him off....making him the Love interest.

 

Malia existed primarily as Stiles' gf for nearly the entire season.  The story that should have been told about her was very much treated as a minor toss-in instead.  Her struggles with school and coyote-ness and everything else took only a handful of minutes.  Yet even as of the end of the season, we don't know where she lives for sure, because they gave us so little about her personally while showing her attached to Stiles as the main thing about her.  The article you linked is trying to put a positive spin on it, but I think it's just making excuses for really bad writing for the character.

No. She existed as a werecoyote trying to fit in with human society. She existed as Peter's secret daughter. She existed as a person in Scott's pack who, like most of the others, looked up to and also looked to Scott for direction. She existed as a girl that's still struggling with guilt and it manifested at least twice this season and once last season. Again was the execution perfect? No. But that, what I wrote, is what they showed us on the show. Her relationship with Stiles was topic of discussion maybe twice in total. She doesn't live for Stiles. Her story didn't stop when she broke up with Stiles, and it kept right on when they got back together. To say that a character exists primarily as a love interest means that their story stops and ends with their lover. It means that they have no real background, they have no other connections, and they seem to live and breathe their relationship with their SO being their number 1 concern. Malia was concerned with a lot of things that had nothing to do with Stiles (Her grades, her past, her father, getting killed for money, surviving, etc). Yes, you can say that Malia is a poorly constructed character with loads of untapped potential, but so is every other character! Why is Lydia even still in High School if she's supposed to be a genius?!?! Most geniuses would be in college by now.

 

The author of the article didn't make excuses, she used examples from the actual show to explain her point. She even gave examples , within the confines of the show, of what a LI is (Paige, being the biggest). But I've already come to the point where I'm understanding that we're never going to see eye-to-eye when it comes to Braeden and Malia.

 

The badge bit was thrown in during the last ten minutes of the season.  The knowledge of supernatural creatures is a carryover from an earlier season.  During S4, she had nearly nothing to do other than train Derek in using a gun for five minutes and spend time in bed with him.  She should have been out there hunting for Kate, but we never saw that, because they only really wanted her around for one reason.  This season, Braeden was primarily a love interest and not much more. 

No it wasn't. She flashed her badge in the second episode at the police station. And again in the episode with the bonfire. And again in the last episode. That's 3 total times, and she's not even meant to be a main character. Her purpose this season (outside of boning Derek) was to teach him how to protect himself. Who else could've shown him that? The other werewolves who rely on werewolf strength and agility to sometimes win fights but have no real knowledge on how to properly fight? Especially against someone who is stronger and faster than you are? It makes sense that it would be the FEMALE US Marshal to teach him that.

 

And all this just brings me back to Allison's comment about being able to be strong while still going to prom. Just because Braeden bumps pelvises with Derek on the regular doesn't diminish that. Just because Malia is dating Stiles doesn't diminish her story.

[ElleryAnne]

She doesn't live for Stiles.

 

 

Yeah, she kinda does.   Her character was based around Stiles.  She was almost always shown in scenes with him.  She started off the season claiming to be his mate.  All that other stuff - her training with Scott, etc.... how much time did that get this season, compared to the time she spent with Stiles?  For that matter, how much time did she spend talking about her family?  She certainly didn't have any scenes with the guy she thought was her father for most of her life.  Not even a phone call.  Was there even a reference?  She had a couple of scenes with Peter and a couple with Lydia, and one with Derek.  But her scenes for most of the season were primarily with Stiles, and primarily to establish them as a couple.  Everything else was a distant second place in her story.   I get that fans of hers (or of SH, since from what I've seen most Malia apologists were SH fans before and that's where their passion comes from) will want to defend the character.  But the show itself doesn't bear it out.  If Malia's story was supposed to be about Malia, then there would have been more attention to the parts of the story about who she is.  But the part of her story that got the most air time was the part in which she's connected to Stiles.  Her primary role was to be his gf.  And yes, his primary role this season was to be her LI.  But at least that comes after 3 seasons of establishing him as a multi-dimensional character in his own right.  They haven't done that with her.  They brought her in because JD wants to tell the story of Stiles and a she-werecreature.   So he wasn't concerned about developing her as a muti-faceted character.  He takes her as a one-dimensional character, explains next to nothing about her background, and attaches her to Stiles.   Because that's all he wanted her for.

 

Her purpose this season (outside of boning Derek) was to teach him how to protect himself. Who else could've shown him that? The other werewolves who rely on werewolf strength and agility to sometimes win fights but have no real knowledge on how to properly fight? Especially against someone who is stronger and faster than you are? It makes sense that it would be the FEMALE US Marshal to teach him that.

 

 

But we don't find out she's a marshal until the end.  She was just as capable of training him when we think she's a mercenary (which honestly also made her far more interesting, IMO), but again -  her "training" Derek was an excuse to have her serve as his love interest and nothing more.  She didn't even spend time doing what she purportedly was supposed to be in Beacon Hills to do, which was to look for Kate.  But even if we go along with the retcon and say she's a marshal obsessed with finding the Desert Wolf (ugh), why wasn't she spending time doing that?  Okay, she's not a main character.  That's fine.  Let's say she got about one hour of air time this season.  Other than the first episode, nearly all of her scenes involved Derek, and most of them were establishing a romance between them.   Because that's why they wanted her around this season - to give him a love interest.  I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I'm not going to pretend that they had anything more interesting than that in mind for her when it's obvious from the writing for her that they didn't.  The emphasis was on her as Derek's LI.

 

 

And all this just brings me back to Allison's comment about being able to be strong while still going to prom. Just because Braeden bumps pelvises with Derek on the regular doesn't diminish that. Just because Malia is dating Stiles doesn't diminish her story.

 

 

But that's because they got it right with Allison. They developed her as a character beyond having her just be Scott's gf.   There were plenty of scenes of Allison with her family, and scenes with Lydia, and even scenes of her alone working on things.   They took time to show that she was important to the story as a character in her own right.  Neither Malia nor Braeden have gotten any similar treatment to that in S4 - their importance was to serve as LI's in insta-romances.  That's what the writing bears out.  And the fact that they got it right with Allison only proves that they could have gotten it right with Malia and Braeden, but didn't bother to, because neither character's development was a priority for the season.  They were only needed for one thing.

[Carrie Ann]

I'm going to respond in the Relationships thread.

[Yitzhak]

 

Sorry about offtopic, but why did you think she was lesbian?

 

Because the phrasing used was "the woman she loved". If they wanted to imply they were just close friends they would likely have used the phrasing "her best friend". TW usually phrases things like this pretty bluntly. 

 

 

Although at least Sterek shippers don't seem to attack the very actors playing their favorite characters because of their tweets... or maybe they do, and I just haven't seen it yet.

 

There's been some negativity towards Dylan since the article about the bisexuality scene. Plus this baseless assumption that's flying around that Dylan is refusing to play Stiles as bisexual because it could hurt his movie career. Personally I've never understood why Sterek supposedly hinges on canon confirmation that Stiles is bi when there aren't the same demands for Derek to show even the slightest hint of bisexuality. Mostly there seems to be this idea that there is some big homophobic conspiracy against Sterek. There has to be someone stopping Sterek from happening. It can't just be the writers not doing Sterek because it's really not a good or remotely convincing idea for a romance story.     

 

 

they Xandered him (Xander was supposed to be gay in the later seasons and they dropped hints about it a la Stiles, but then they decided to make Willow the gay one instead).

 

Though Jeff likes to borrow a lot from Buffy and while fans often compare Stiles to Xander (because they are both the sarcastic token humans), his story arc has more closely resembled that of Willow, particularly with his Dark!Willow arc in 3b. Stiles and Willow both start off as lonely geeks with an unrequited crush on another member of the gang (Lydia for Stiles and Xander for Willow), then they are paired up with a reciprocating werewolf love interest (Oz for Willow and Malia for Stiles, though this role was clearly intended for Erica and then Cora before her).

 

Maybe due to the delay in getting Stiles his first reciprocal het romance there simply isn't time anymore to introduce a possible male Tarah for Stiles? Because if there ever was a solid plan in place to give Stiles a same sex romance in later seasons (which...I actually doubt that there was) I don't think Derek was ever planned to be the Tarah. So I could just as easily believe the writers dropped the idea because they didn't want to deal with the fandom and media frenzy which would surely result from making Stiles queer but not gay for Derek. 

 

It's also telling that in the one interview where I've heard Jeff talk about Stiles being possibly bisexual Jeff references a bi friend of his who settled down with a woman and was criticized by the gay community for doing so. Which I took as a hint that even if they do make Stiles bi he is still going to end up with Lydia.  

Edited September 30, 2014 by Yitzhak

[ElleryAnne]

Sterek supposedly hinges on canon confirmation that Stiles is bi when there aren't the same demands for Derek to show even the slightest hint of bisexuality.

 

 

Sterek doesn't hinge on it.  They're two different issues.  People who are upset about the bi-erasure generally feel that way because they wanted Jeff to be true to those hints and they wanted bi-representation.  Sterek fans don't need it, especially - they can draw from any number of references to make Sterek work.  

 

 

There has to be someone stopping Sterek from happening. It can't just be the writers not doing Sterek because it's really not a good or remotely convincing idea for a romance story.

 

 

The shift isn't only in the lack of scenes for them within the show.  There was a dramatic shift in the way JD and the cast used to respond to Sterek vs. the way they do now.  So yes, people suspect there must be a reason behind it.  That's not people being conspiracy-minded; that's just people noticing that something changed - rather suddenly and quickly.  It's not surprising that they're wondering why it changed.  

[galax-arena]

Mostly there seems to be this idea that there is some big homophobic conspiracy against Sterek. There has to be someone stopping Sterek from happening. It can't just be the writers not doing Sterek because it's really not a good or remotely convincing idea for a romance story.    

I don’t think it’s out of bounds to assume that ~the gay thing~ has something to do with it (not Sterek specifically, but about the relative lack of queer characters/relationships on screen). I don’t necessarily mean explicit homophobia on Jeff’s part, but let’s be honest, if Sterek or Scerek or Sciles or [insert other same-sex ship here] were opposite-sex pairings, then there would actually be a pretty decent chance that they would hook up at some point (depending on how long the show lasted). At the very least, they’d have one character explicitly pining after the other, lol. For example, take Scott and Stiles. Best friends! If they were an opposite-sex pairing, at some point you’d totally see one character crushing on the other, even if it led nowhere, because opposite-sex BFF pairs on teen television almost always go down that road.

 

I agree that Sterek doesn’t make much sense to me - I like antagonistic pairings, but there’s just nothing there for me where Sterek is concerned - but has that ever stopped TPTB before? And I think we’re giving Davis too much credit if we assume that he’s staying away from Sterek purely because he doesn’t think it’d make sense, because the man wouldn’t know good writing if it came and bit him on the ass. Remember, this is the dude who didn’t even think about the possibility of Kira electrifying the chain when she was fighting the berserker.

 

I said upthread that IMO it’s disingenuous for a lot of m/m shippers to act like their specific ship is some great big crusade for gay rights (which is why it bothers me when they automatically accuse people who don’t ship it of homophobia), and I stick by that. People need to learn how to divorce their personal preferences from social justice*. But that doesn’t mean that I think that the lack of prominent LGBT characters/relationships isn’t an issue in and of itself when the creator and cast of the show are yammering on about what a gay utopia it is. The show wouldn’t be receiving nearly this much scrutiny about gay characters and relationships if they hadn’t patted themselves on the back so much.

 

* Like, I might not care for Sterek, and if it happened, chances are I wouldn’t be happy with the writing because LOLJEFFDAVISSUX. But I’d also think, “It’s always good to see more non-straight relationships in the media.” I wouldn’t dismiss them as not really “counting” in terms of representation just because they’re not my cup of tea. By the same token, I can’t STAND Kurt or Blaine - separately or together - on Glee, but IMO they’re a fairly important/iconic couple in the landscape of modern LGBT relationships on screen.

Edited September 30, 2014 by galax-arena

[Yitzhak]

 

They're two different issues.

 

They should be two different issues but the media response to the interview was articles with titles like 'Did Dylan O'Brien just sink the Sterek ship?' Dylan's interview has also been quoted along with Posey's comments in articles as examples of Sterek fans being given a hard time by the TW creators. It should just be a character issue but you gotta admit it has been made a ship issue by many fans/bloggers.

 

 

people suspect there must be a reason behind it.  That's not people being conspiracy-minded; that's just people noticing that something changed - rather suddenly and quickly.  It's not surprising that they're wondering why it changed.

 

To me it seems obvious. The cast and JD thought they could be slash friendly and have a joke with Sterek shippers. Then shippers took a jokey boat video as a serious suggestion that Sterek would happen in canon. Sterek shippers got intense and pushy. Jeff back-peddled and tried to avoid the issue. In brief - it got weird. I think it's a shame both parties couldn't have maintained a sense of humor about Sterek.       

Edited September 30, 2014 by Yitzhak