S05.E11: Seeing Red

[adora721]

On 1/25/2019 at 5:34 AM, steelyis said:

Danielle Panabaker has moments when I think she acts really well.

She absolutely nails Caitlin's friendship/bonding moments with Cisco, and she has a knack for spouting medical and techno babble. She has talent, but Panabaker makes a lot of acting choices that don't work because she doesn't know how to rise above the fair to middling material like other actors on the show often have. That's why her weak performances can be glaring by comparison.

Per IMDB, Danielle Panabaker has been acting since 2002. By now, she should have enough experience with good and bad writing to be able to rise above the bad. There's no excuse for it. She's also 3rd billed on the show; that should mean she's more than competent at her job, but she's only competent in scenes with Cisco. An actor who completely depends on another actor to bring out a good performance is an actor that needs to work on the craft. Even good actors still take courses to sharpen their skills from time to time. There's no shame in that; the shame is to skate by hoping no one notices. Guess what? We notice. Even by CW standards, she's bad.

Edited February 1, 2019 by adora721

[steelyis]

49 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Per IMDB, Danielle Panabaker has been acting since 2002. By now, she should have enough experience with good and bad writing to be able to rise above the bad. There's no excuse for it. She's also 3rd billed on the show; that should mean she's more than competent at her job, but she's only competent in scenes with Cisco. An actor who completely depends on another actor to bring out a good performance is an actor that needs to work on the craft. Even good actors still take courses to sharpen their skills from time to time. There's no shame in that; the shame is to skate by hoping noone notices. Guess what? We notice. Even by CW standards, she's bad.

 

Yeah, she hasn't grown much as an actor since the last role I noticed her in, Shark.

I have a theory when Panabaker read for Caitlin Snow her acting fit the role much better. Caitlin was supposed to be cold and aloof after Ronnie's death, and that allowed Panabaker to obscure her lack of range in early to late season one. Panabaker's limited skill as an actor couldn't keep up with the character growth Caitlin was given, and the character (and some of the audience) suffers because of it.

[adora721]

31 minutes ago, steelyis said:

I have a theory when Panabaker read for Caitlin Snow her acting fit the role much better. Caitlin was supposed to be cold and aloof after Ronnie's death, and that allowed Panabaker to obscure her lack of range in early to late season one. Panabaker's limited skill as an actor couldn't keep up with the character growth Caitlin was given, and the character (and some of the audience) suffers because of it.

I agree except for the part about DP reading for the role; I think you're assuming that she auditioned for the role. She didn't. She was given the role by AJK because of her friendship with him. ETA: I'm not saying that not auditioning for the role is something inherently bad; JPK, who plays "Nora", was given her role, too. JPK is a better actor though.

I think you're right about Caitlin's coldness fitting DP's limited acting range, which is why she seems to do better when she's playing Killer Frost who has limited emotions.

Edited January 27, 2019 by adora721

[steelyis]

2 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I agree except for the part about DP reading for the role; I think you're assuming that she auditioned for the role. She didn't. She was given the role by AJK because of her friendship with him. I think you're right about Caitlin's coldness fitting DP's limited acting range, which is why she seems to do better when she's playing Killer Frost who has limited emotions.

 

Wait. What?

[adora721]

31 minutes ago, steelyis said:

 

Wait. What?

The general consensus is that she got the job because she's friends with AJK and AJK's wife is her agent. In one interview, DP claimed, "Their weekly hours are quite grueling, but Panabaker’s audition was “super duper fast.” In a few short days she was cast for the part of Caitlin." The 'super fast audition" line is to cover up that she was given the role; she didn't really audition for it. Robbie Amell was also given his role as "Ronnie". 

ETA: Here's yet another interview claiming her ties to Greg Berlanti: "

What was your audition process like?

Danielle:  It was so fast. I had been in New York, and I flew back on a Monday night, and by Friday I had the role. It was incredibly fast. I have known Greg Berlanti for years... "

Edited January 27, 2019 by adora721

[steelyis]

55 minutes ago, adora721 said:

The general consensus is that she got the job because she's friends with AJK and AJK's wife is her agent. In one interview, DP claimed, "Their weekly hours are quite grueling, but Panabaker’s audition was “super duper fast.” In a few short days she was cast for the part of Caitlin." The 'super fast audition" line is to cover up that she was given the role; she didn't really audition for it. Robbie Amell was also given his role as "Ronnie". 

ETA: Here's yet another interview claiming her ties to Greg Berlanti: "

What was your audition process like?

Danielle:  It was so fast. I had been in New York, and I flew back on a Monday night, and by Friday I had the role. It was incredibly fast. I have known Greg Berlanti for years... "

 

Okay. Wow. I'm trying not to judge, because who you know has been part of show business forever, but casting Panabaker was haphazard and shortsighted by the producers.

Wow.

[Trini]

They really should have put the Killer Frost/Caitlin/metahuman cure subplot in the previous episode. Nora getting paralyzed, Barry & Iris dealing with that, and Cicada and the metas was enough for this episode, and I feel like the A-plot (Barry/Iris/Nora) got shortchanged.

[SimoneS]

11 hours ago, adora721 said:

 Even by CW standards, she's bad.

Hilarious. I have noticed that there are scenes where DP struggles to get the words out coherently.  She is lucky to have the talented Carlos Valdes as a regular screen partner. I think their scenes are her best. The Flash is the only CW show I watch regularly. I think that The Flash and Black Lightning have the strongest casts. I did watch the first couple episodes of Riverdale and Roswell. There is some really bad acting on Riverdale and Roswell. Too bad she wasn't cast on those shows. She would fit right in. 

[KirkB]

In the first season WE knew Wells was bad from the first episode but the characters didn't, and we got the build up to who he was over the course of the season. It was perfectly paced and IMO was Cavanaugh at his finest.

In season 2 we spent half the season fearing Zoom and wondering who he was, and the second half...wondering why he didn't just kill Barry and get it over with. They seemed to lose focus and never really got it back.

In 3 they waited a little introducing Savitar, and then a long while hiding who he was (even though a lot of people had already figured it out long before the reveal) and the rest of the season running in circles until finally defeating him.

4 came along and we thought it would be a change of pace because the villain was not a speedster. And it was a change of pace. Unfortunately that pace was really slow, because Devoe didn't do much but smirk at first and when he finally started doing something it was always winning so handily against Barry and the others I wondered why they were even bothering to fight.

Now we get Cicada. Who has no powers, just a fancy power stealing knife, which should make him fairly easy to beat for a guy who can run faster than the speed of sound, a guy who can make portals from a distance and a woman whose powers aren't even affected by the knife, and yet every time they have him down they get distracted and let him get away.

I think the pacing is their biggest problem, followed by the fact they don't seem to know how to build the menace of a villain the way they did Thawne. It might be better if they introduce somebody as a villain, like Alchemy, focus on him, and when they beat him halfway through the season or so it is revealed the true villain is waiting to really mess with them.

[scarynikki12]

Keep your discussion focused on this episode. General series discussion is off topic. 

[mac123x]

I can't believe I'm writing this, but I'm willing to give Barry a little slack on letting Cicada escape at the end.  Barry was metaphorically "Seeing Red" because he was so angry that Cicada hurt his daughter, and was willing to cross the line into murdering him to protect (or avenge) Nora.  Nora's showing up was a such a profound relief that he forgot everything else and Cicada escaped.

 

Honestly, if I were writing this show, I would have spread the "Nora is paralyzed" plot over 2 episodes.  Have her get injured in the first episode and appear to be NOT recovering.  Allow multiple scenes of Barry getting more and more distraught as Cicada keeps killing metas.  Have a scene with Iris with dialog like:

Barry:  "We can't catch him.  We don't know how to hold him even if we did catch him.  He has to be stopped!"

Iris:  "...what are you saying?"

Barry: "After what he did to Nora?  We can't let him get away with it.  He HAS to be stopped, no matter what."

Make it obvious that Barry is becoming enraged, and wants to kill Cicada as revenge.  At the final confrontation, when Barry is beating the shit out of Cicada and is almost to the point of murdering him, then have Cisco breach in with Nora leaning on him (but standing).  She isn't healed completely, but is on her way to recovery.  Barry is so shocked to see her and shocked about what he almost did that he lets go of Cicada, who scampers off because we can't defeat the seasonal villain this early.

 

Yeah, the last bit of my scenario still sucks, but at least a 2-part plotline would let it breathe some and give time for character development.  As it stands, Barry had very little time to develop into "Seeing Red" since the episode was crammed with a bunch of other extraneous shit.

 

On an unrelated note, I'm still laughing at these dunderheads for not realizing that the Cure is going to be a) stolen and b) weaponized.  Their genre blindness is ridiculous.

Edited January 28, 2019 by mac123x

[BkWurm1]

On 1/22/2019 at 9:49 PM, SimoneS said:

On 1/22/2019 at 9:49 PM, SimoneS said:

Seriously. Barry and Iris have been married maybe a year, six months of which Barry was in prison. They should still be in their honeymoon phase, even with Nora there. You would think we would see her walk in on her parents kissing or just having close moments even at Star Labs. It was a nice surprise just to see the loft tonight. 

Barry and Iris' relationship has carried this show at times and they have still have this amazing chemistry, but as usual the writers are wasting it instead of interweaving it into ongoing stories. We should have gotten at minimum gotten a scene with Barry and Iris comforting each other in the hallway. Goes to show that Helbing is only slightly better than Kreisberg.

 

Actually Barry was in prison less than a month.  Oliver was the one in prison for 6-7 months this year.  Barry was found guilty in the Jan 16th episode and released in the Feb 6th episode.    

Of course the whole season's time line has been screwed up because there was never an obvious time jump.  We have no obvious breaks between episodes to account for the summer hiatus but we do know the show caught up with Arrow's timeline before the crossover (the Thanksgiving episode proved that despite them at times implying the Dark Matter explosion had happened not that long ago)

  But that means that Iris and Barry had been married 6 months, with almost month right after the honeymoon with one of them with him in jail and then their daughter was with them since.  She even lived with them for a time.  Perhaps for many months since we don't know when that 5 month time jump happened.  It's confusing since Nora technically only lived with them for a couple episodes (Went to stay with them at end of 5x3 on Oct 23rd and was staying with Cecille and Joe by end of 5x4 on Oct 30th) I don't recall which episode was the Thanksgiving one.  

But all that is to say that Barry and Iris had no more than five months as newlyweds on their own and probably what?  A couple days after they stopped last year's big bad and were in a good mood before, surprise, kid! Honeymoon over.  Though on the other hand, we know shows that have that kid/parent element already there even before a wedding and they can easily give them couple moments.  And it felt like they did do that in this episode to some extent but over Nora.  They don't seem to sell WestAllen as a couple anymore, just a family.  

On 1/22/2019 at 10:46 PM, SimoneS said:

I think Grant is doing okay as is Candice. The story is just a hard sell. Barry and Iris parenting an adult child who behaves like a petulant teenager is ridiculous, getting to know her and supporting her would be more believable. I have said this several times, but it is difficult to believe that Barry and Iris and no one on Team Flash is concerned about Nora messing with the timeline. 

Of course the reason they write Nora as a teen is to play up the parent roles for Iris and Barry, otherwise she would treat them as just her peers and they would not have taken on the parental dynamic and we would never have reached their current close family dynamic.  Take away writing Nora very young, and you take away the whole story and lose the mom and dad aspect.  Honestly I don't think we in the audience are to think of Nora as a full on adult but to pretend she is that teen.  Or at least blame her lack of a father and a complicated and difficult relationship with her mother sending Nora into a second childhood I suppose.  But this is their dynamic and without it, Barry and Iris don't get to shine in their familiar roles without it.  Nora could have been written differently but then there's no story.  If anyone is to blame for how Nora is written, it's the desire to see WestAllen be parents.    

[slayer2]

On 2019-01-22 at 9:07 PM, SimoneS said:

Chris Klein's bad acting makes this Cicada story worse. Scrunching up his face doesn't make him look menacing just dumb and constipated. 

The writers have got to stop re-writing the Caitlin/Killer Frost story. Pick a lane and stay in it!

I'm enjoying this story save for him. Every time he trots in with his smell the fart acting it pulls me back out again. The Flash is my favourite show and Chris Klein is ruining it. It seems like he's only getting worse as well. He was spectacularly bad in this EP. Especially any scenes with dialogue. Yikes. 

[adora721]

I found an article that claims, "Carlos Valdes was apparently working on a short film, but to have him disappear completely is still unsettling)" So, that's why "Cisco" went missing for two episodes.

ETA: Had to add these nuggets from the review:

"For the record, the Killer Frost storyline (along with Sherloque’s presence and Cicada in general) has been the weakest of the season. Not only is it taking up too much time only for us to be back to square one, but it’s frustrating because it also makes absolutely no sense."

"The subplot was made even worse because, while the media enjoys praising mediocrity, five seasons in, it needs to be said: Danielle Panabaker isn’t a strong actress. She doesn’t have the emotional range to carry a storyline or an episode and her body language and facial cues are more often distracting in their exaggeration than they are helpful in adding nuance to Caitlin and elevating the material she’s given. And the more this storyline drags on, the more apparent it becomes."

Edited February 1, 2019 by adora721

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

I found an article that claims, "Carlos Valdes was apparently working on a short film, but to have him disappear completely is still unsettling)" So, that's why "Cisco" went missing for two episodes. the more apparent it becomes."

 

At least, now we know why. Having a reason makes Carlos' absence less worrisome.

Edited February 1, 2019 by SimoneS

[Cthulhudrew]

On 1/26/2019 at 7:47 PM, adora721 said:

I think you're right about Caitlin's coldness fitting DP's limited acting range, which is why she seems to do better when she's playing Killer Frost who has limited emotions.

 

Oddly enough, I thought she did a better acting job as evil Earth-2 Killer Frost than she does as this milquetoast Earth-one hybrid version. 

(Granted, the dialogue for either version was still pretty bad, but that's the writers' fault.)

Edited February 1, 2019 by Cthulhudrew

[Kate45]

On 1/22/2019 at 10:49 PM, SimoneS said:

Seriously. Barry and Iris have been married maybe a year, six months of which Barry was in prison. They should still be in their honeymoon phase, even with Nora there. You would think we would see her walk in on her parents kissing or just having close moments even at Star Labs. It was a nice surprise just to see the loft tonight. 

Barry and Iris' relationship has carried this show at times and they have still have this amazing chemistry, but as usual the writers are wasting it instead of interweaving it into ongoing stories. We should have gotten at minimum gotten a scene with Barry and Iris comforting each other in the hallway. Goes to show that Helbing is only slightly better than Kreisberg.

Barry was in jail for about 20 days, according to the count on Barry’s jail wall. I agree with everything else though. 

[SimoneS]

30 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

Barry was in jail for about 20 days, according to the count on Barry’s jail wall. I agree with everything else though. 

No clue why I thought he was in prison longer. Probably because I was bored as the story felt like it dragged on forever.

[sarthaz]

I'm working through a backlog of episodes, because this show has become such a chore to watch. And then I get to this. Between Klein's "acting" and Team Flash's monumental stupidity, I don't know if I can keep going. I'm only 10 minutes in, and they seriously just benched Killer Frost (their. only. weapon.) mid-fight so Caitlin could attend to an extra's injuries MID-FIGHT when the obvious move was for one of the speedsters to race her to a hospital, because Frost is their only weapon and they were MID-FIGHT! This show has always been a difficult balance between likable central characters and nonsensical plots, but it's way, way, WAY off the rails.