Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[Spartan Girl]

On February 21, 2019 at 2:07 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

When I watch "Bad Girl" all I think is: Oh look! It's Kathy Stabler, Elliot's wife from SVU!

Holy shit, I can't believe I never noticed that before but you're right!

And big fat WORD to everyone's annoyance about how bring "Christian" apparently entitles you to a free pass in "Bad Girl". The sad thing is how that attitude is still very evident today, and how these so-called Catholics/Christians act like they're somehow the oppressed minority. I'm  non-practicing Christian, but I never once thought that way. 

I will give credit to Kathy Stabler's character for not wanting the Christian group to overturn her sentence. It doesn't make up for what she did, but at least she wasn't using religion to worm out of the consequences, unlike the guy in "In God We Trust."

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Holy shit, I can't believe I never noticed that before but you're right!

And big fat WORD to everyone's annoyance about how bring "Christian" apparently entitles you to a free pass in "Bad Girl". The sad thing is how that attitude is still very evident today, and how these so-called Catholics/Christians act like they're somehow the oppressed minority. I'm  non-practicing Christian, but I never once thought that way. 

I will give credit to Kathy Stabler's character for not wanting the Christian group to overturn her sentence. It doesn't make up for what she did, but at least she wasn't using religion to worm out of the consequences, unlike the guy in "In God We Trust."

I'm a Christian and never thought that way either. I really hate that way of thinking. First no, being a Christian isn't a get out jail free card you still did the crime you still do the time, second no one who thinks that way would ever help if it was anyone of a different religion no they'd be all for executing the girl even she really did change and accept the consequences because of her new beliefs in a different religion and third I know I keep saying this one but it drives me crazy if you commit a crime or sin and you are a Christian you are not suppose to get out of the crime. Yes, you repent but you still have to accept the consequences and any punishment that comes from what you did, then your forgiven. Anything short of that then you didn't really repent.  Its actually a pretty big part of the faith. But of course all of those types Christians conveniently forget.  

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I'm confused by Season 9 Disciple and Jack's reaction to Rosa. He really buys into Rosa's belief that St. Michael told her to perform an exorcist on Kiera who died as result. Jack's never had a problem before separating religion from the crime. So why is this different? Rosa left the church because her ideas and methods were too old school even for them. Truly believer or not she still killed Kiera and how could that really be what St. Michael wanted? The girl didn't deserve to die because a nun believed she was getting messages from St. Michael. I'm glad the jury found her guilty. 

I really didn’t get why Jack seemed off during the trial either. McCoy was never religious, he was always skeptical of religion and he didn’t like people using religion as a defense during trials, it didn’t make sense that he was suddenly unsure about Rosa, Rosa was a murderer who killed a teenage girl in a barbaric religious ritual. It was one of the few times I was annoyed with McCoy. I liked Schiff’s line “prove that a saint can commit murder”.

[andromeda331]

34 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I really didn’t get why Jack seemed off during the trial either. McCoy was never religious, he was always skeptical of religion and he didn’t like people using religion as a defense during trials, it didn’t make sense that he was suddenly unsure about Rosa, Rosa was a murderer who killed a teenage girl in a barbaric religious ritual. It was one of the few times I was annoyed with McCoy. I liked Schiff’s line “prove that a saint can commit murder”.

I liked that line too. But yes I was annoyed with McCoy for those reasons. He always through people using religion as a defense and never once bought into any of that. Rosa was no different from any of those people so why was he suddenly acting like she was? 

[DXD526]

Also can't stand "Aftershock" and never watch when it's on. It's one of a handful of episodes ("Killerz" also immediately comes to mind) that I find so objectionable I just can't enjoy it on any level. I can understand having a visceral reaction to witnessing an execution, even that of a clearly guilty and unrepentant scumbag, but the reactions seemed a bit extreme. And having sanctimonious straight-arrow Rey cheat on his wife was ridiculous. Especially for someone like him, having an emotional reaction to something would presumably make him want to seek the comfort and reassurance of his loved ones, not go bone a stranger. That was totally inconsistent with his character, and made zero sense. It was also pure soap opera stuff, which one certainly doesn't expect from the Mothership. Fortunately, the episode is an outlier in that respect, it didn't become the rule for future episodes. 

[ByTor]

On 2/22/2019 at 1:00 AM, LennieBriscoe said:

the affair between McCoy and Kincaid would be on shaky ground. 

I think I'm the only ding-dong who never knew Claire & Jack were having an affair.  Was it this episode we discovered that?  And what was said (that I obviously never caught) that revealed it?

[Xeliou66]

Jack and Claire’s affair was only confirmed in episodes after Claire’s death. 

37 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I liked that line too. But yes I was annoyed with McCoy for those reasons. He always through people using religion as a defense and never once bought into any of that. Rosa was no different from any of those people so why was he suddenly acting like she was? 

Yes I’ve always found McCoy’s behavior in Disciple to be off and somewhat OOC. McCoy was always skeptical of religion and never liked when criminals tried to hide behind religion so I found it odd that he wasn’t unsure of what to make of Rosa. I was glad that the jury convicted her, her barbaric ritual killed Kiera. And fuck Kiera’s mother as well for forcing Kiera to do that.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Well this has to be a first for Sundance. I’m watching “Hate” and they didn’t bleep out Fag, Kike, or the N-Word. What’s so special about this episode that they made the exception?

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Jack and Claire’s affair was only confirmed in episodes after Claire’s death. 

Yes I’ve always found McCoy’s behavior in Disciple to be off and somewhat OOC. McCoy was always skeptical of religion and never liked when criminals tried to hide behind religion so I found it odd that he wasn’t unsure of what to make of Rosa. I was glad that the jury convicted her, her barbaric ritual killed Kiera. And fuck Kiera’s mother as well for forcing Kiera to do that.

Yeah, I really thought Kiera's mother should be charged too. She went along with it and when the police came tried to tell them she sent her daughter to Durham. She had no real reaction or emotion over her daughter was dead? Who goes along with an exorcism? Why didn't she think Rosa was wacked when it was brought up?

McCoy was OOC throughout the episode. Even if he believed what he said to Adam that he thinks Rosa believes it. Why is that problem?  He's prosecuted those who truly believed too. That didn't mean anything because they still killed someone. In Rosa's case she left the regular church because even they thought she was too old school and wouldn't have been allowed to given a exorcism even if had been allowed by the church (which according to the Archdiocese would be a no. He admitted don't really do that anymore, only did it once in the last twenty years and explained why only certain people would be allowed). How is she any different from zealot or cult leader who leaves mainstream for her own extreme views and/or beliefs and a teen girl is killed during a ritual? 

[LennieBriscoe]

"Aftershock":

I thought the affair between Kincaid and McCoy was to be deduced from the missed-phone-calls tag; the annoyed manner in which McCoy left the bar; the clear "late arrival" to same by Kincaid (who then made the fateful spontaneous decision to drive Lennie home);  our knowledge of Jack as a DA who dated subordinates; and the episode "Trophy," wherein the relationship is hinted at.  

[WendyCR72]

Said it in the old forum, but Lennie falling off the wagon in "Aftershock" as he did because of that execution made no sense to me. (I know the show also tried adding the tension between him and his daughter, but the execution was the primary motivator, which was ridiculous.)

Jerry Orbach was certainly up to the acting challenge, but as I said in the forum, I think Lennie's daughter being murdered a season later should have/could have been the impetus for the back sliding.

[andromeda331]

48 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Said it in the old forum, but Lennie falling off the wagon in "Aftershock" as he did because of that execution made no sense to me. (I know the show also tried adding the tension between him and his daughter, but the execution was the primary motivator, which was ridiculous.)

Jerry Orbach was certainly up to the acting challenge, but as I said in the forum, I think Lennie's daughter being murdered a season later should have/could have been the impetus for the back sliding.

Yes, that's the one that should have been the reason for the back sliding if they were going to go there. Losing his daughter who was murdered and he blamed himself for it since she was killed by the drug dealer she had to testify against. Lennie believed they only made her do that because she was his daughter.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

“Sideshow”

One nonsensical episode that made no sense, other than for Dick Wolf to do a subplot of an asshole based on Ken Starr.😒😒😒

So, did that hooker kill the victim? How’d she get the body to New York from Baltimore?

So what was Fake!KenStarr looking to do? Out all the lesbians who worked for the federal government and get them fired?

The only interesting thing about this was me wondering if they actually were in DC to film the two or three outside scenes. I couldn’t see any CGI.

[andromeda331]

11 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Well this has to be a first for Sundance. I’m watching “Hate” and they didn’t bleep out Fag, Kike, or the N-Word. What’s so special about this episode that they made the exception?

Wow. I wonder why its so special too. 

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

“Sideshow”

One nonsensical episode that made no sense, other than for Dick Wolf to do a subplot of an asshole based on Ken Starr.😒😒😒

So, did that hooker kill the victim? How’d she get the body to New York from Baltimore?

So what was Fake!KenStarr looking to do? Out all the lesbians who worked for the federal government and get them fired?

The only interesting thing about this was me wondering if they actually were in DC to film the two or three outside scenes. I couldn’t see any CGI.

Yeah, that one makes no sense too. What was Fake!KenStarr (love the name!) looking for? He was all up in their case, hauling Jack in front of a grand jury all to learn one name? What? Why? How did she get the body to New York from Baltimore. And really why? It really made no sense. I did love Munch's conspiracy theories. I wish we got to see more of him and Lennie together. They'd be hilarious. 

[andromeda331]

I do love Refuge Part one and two. Both are well done. The constant derailment as the Russians kept murdering suspects. Ricci was really good character too. The poor kid. Watching them uncover the huge money laundering scheme. Jack going too far by locking everyone up ending up in the different courts. Yeah, it was wrong but its easy to see how angry and frustrating it would be up to against a group that's so hard to put into jail because they scare people and murder witnesses. I do love what Adam said to him. He was right of course. Adam is always right. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

“Empire”

There was no point to this other than to have Julia Roberts guest star because she and Benjamin were dating at the time.

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid. Giving her a pass or Debra would be humiliated.

”Ambitious” was also another useless episode.

And I don’t know what it is, but I have a visceral and immediate hate toward Jeffrey De Munn, whenever he guest stars on this show-I can’t be arsed to verify if he’s playing the same, SMUG asshole.

[Xeliou66]

On 2/23/2019 at 5:30 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Well this has to be a first for Sundance. I’m watching “Hate” and they didn’t bleep out Fag, Kike, or the N-Word. What’s so special about this episode that they made the exception?

I noticed it as well when I watched Hate, but it’s not the first time those words have been said uncensored. The N word I believe is said in Rage, I’m pretty sure that’s not the only time it’s said uncensored, fag is said uncensored in a few episodes, and kike is said uncensored in Blood Libel. The censorship is incredibly random and makes no sense, and it really takes away from the episodes, it’s definitely an issue of packinging as the later episodes are never censored.

I didn’t like Empire either, it was cliched and uninteresting and I didn’t like the Curtis stuff with Julia Roberts’ character at all. 

Sideshow was complicated and confusing, it’s been a long time since I’ve seen Part 2, the Homicide episode that goes along with it, maybe that would clear some things up. I did enjoy Briscoe/Munch in DC and McCoy/Danvers working together.

Refuge was great, extremely complex but a great 2 part episode. Gripping from start to finish, with some great scenes for each character, it is noticeable for being one of the only times all 6 characters were in a scene together, when they are all at the murder scene at the safe house. I thought McCoy did cross the line and I think he realized it, Schiff was right, I love Adam, and I love the final exchange between him and McCoy when McCoy assumes Schiff will fire him.

McCoy “Don’t worry Adam, if I had disobeyed a direct order from Frank Hogan he would’ve canned me as well”

Schiff “That’s Frank Hogan”

[Ailianna]

On 2/23/2019 at 3:27 PM, DXD526 said:

Killerz" also immediately comes to mind) that I find so objectionable I just can't enjoy it on any level.

Why do you fine Killerz objectionable?  I"m genuinely curious.  It's one of my favorites, as I think the acting in it is great, especially from the young actress playing Jenny, and it raises a lot of the issues that are still real life problems with the very violent crimes committed by some terrifyingly young people.  It's also based upon a real case, so I don't think that it's going too far or too extreme to be believed.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Ailianna said:

Why do you fine Killerz objectionable?  I"m genuinely curious.  It's one of my favorites, as I think the acting in it is great, especially from the young actress playing Jenny, and it raises a lot of the issues that are still real life problems with the very violent crimes committed by some terrifyingly young people.  It's also based upon a real case, so I don't think that it's going too far or too extreme to be believed.

For me its watching a future serial killer who could have been stopped at age ten and put in psych ward with qualified doctors instead just let go by the Judge and lesser extent Olivet with the plan of basically cross your fingers and hope for the best. Olivet and the Judge and the decision to do nothing but send the girl home with her mother. She murdered a boy. Yet Olivet and the Judge were so worried about her and her future or being damaged or whatever as if she did something minor. Her mother has already made it clear she can't control her because she murdered a boy on her watch zero signs she's going to change anything in her parenting style. Her mother on the stand begging not to take her daughter from her because she's her best friend. That scene at the end the girl looking at that boy. She's going to kill again. The Judge and Olivet just let her go. I hope her next victims family sued both the Judge and Olivet.

[Ailianna]

I get that too.  And that part is both realistic and very frustrating, in my opinion.  To less extreme measures, this is what a lot of the criminal justice system does with juvenile offenders, without considering that although most are children who need help, some are dangerous and violent and can't be sent to bed without dinner.  That is objectionable and horrible in real life--I guess it's a bit of a relief for me to see it played out in drama in a way that makes people realize not all children are the same.

[Dr.OO7]

On 2/23/2019 at 3:45 PM, ByTor said:

I think I'm the only ding-dong who never knew Claire & Jack were having an affair.  Was it this episode we discovered that?  And what was said (that I obviously never caught) that revealed it?

I didn't realize either. At most, I figured there was an attraction.

There was a webpage devoted to analyzing every little moment between and only then did I get the Rewatch Bonus of realizing they were sleeping together.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Regarding Jack and Claire--I can't recall if it was "Trophy" or another case, but they're walking down the sidewalk, and Claire mentions dinner, and Jack responds with how he "won't be late." That gave me a whuut? And a huge eyeroll, because I should have known, in the season five premiere, when Claire stated she wouldn't be one of "Jack's women" that she absolutely would be! And of course her reaction to Diane in "Trophy."

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I get that too.  And that part is both realistic and very frustrating, in my opinion.  To less extreme measures, this is what a lot of the criminal justice system does with juvenile offenders, without considering that although most are children who need help, some are dangerous and violent and can't be sent to bed without dinner.  That is objectionable and horrible in real life--I guess it's a bit of a relief for me to see it played out in drama in a way that makes people realize not all children are the same.

That's true. At the time there was a lot of 'kids are kids' even if they commit a crime you shouldn't punish them as you would adults, the idea that the child can still be saved or learn from their mistakes. I know there's still that now but there was so much of it then. That only really works on certain kids and certain crimes. For the most part what happened is the kid just learned he or she could commit a crime and get away with it which lead to more crimes and more out of control. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. For crimes especially as serious as murder, the kid's already damaged or as out of control as you can get if he or she killed someone. They need to be off the streets and punished. Its as frustrating in real life as it was in the episode. It also does drive me crazy in the episode with the Judge and Olivet going on and on about worrying about her future or damaging her or whatever. She's ten and killed someone, that means she's already damaged. If they really cared at all for her. They'd do what's best for her which is locking her up with qualified doctors. That way she won't be able to hurt anyone else and get the treatment she needs by those that can help her.  

[Ailianna]

New York State just passed legilation that makes it even harder to hold teenagers who commit crimes accountable, or to teach them there are consequences.  They call it "Raise the Age" and over the next three years they are raising the age for which children who commit crimes, including a variety of violent crimes, have to be sent to a new juvenile court, whcih essentially just sends them to bed without dinner.  So this year 17 years old are included, next year 18, the next year 19.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Watching this now and THIS Should have been Stone’s swan song:

Stone: "Why don't we just take the gloves off, allright? And stop behaving like advocates."

Green: "He killed a man.  That's a crime. Hell, maybe it's even a sin.  But he was provoked."

Stone: "Do you really believe that? That he was provoked by a couple hundred hooligans?"

Green: "By a couple centuries of hate.  Between you and me, Ben, as a Black woman, I'm ashamed of what happened on that street."

Stone: "Are you? You have a hell of a way of showing it."

Green: "You don't get it, do you? I DON'T want that to happen again."

Stone: "No, you don't get it. By infantilizing your own people, you are guaranteeing that it will happen again."

Green: "After all these years, you really had me fooled.  I had no idea that your sort of liberalism only came out of the closet when it was fashionable."

Stone: "Shambala...just once, I want somebody to stand up in this country and say 'I did it.  I'm responsible for my actions.  Not my television set and not the color of my skin.'  And if it makes you feel good, to call me a racist...fine.  But if you're looking for who's responsible for racism these days, take a good look in the mirror."

Me: Wow. Amazing. Gave me chills.😳😳😳

*********************************************************

Stone: "Mr. Roberts...do you regret killing Mr. DeSantis?"

Isaac: "Sure. I don't wanna see anybody dead."

Stone: "What about Mr. Berger? The man who killed Damon Fox."

Isaac: "A little kid gets run down in the street. And nothin' happens to the guy who did it.  What if it was some white kid on Park Avenue and the car was driven by a Brother?"

Stone: "But it wasn't. It was a Jewish businessman up in Harlem. He's walking the streets. And you could go to prison... for the rest of your life."

Isaac: "What else is new? They own the banks, the buildings. A Jew snaps his finger, and everyone comes running."

Stone: "Now is that what you were thinking about when you saw Mr. DeSantis?"

  Isaac: "I don't know.  Maybe."

  Stone (smiling conspiratorially): "Come on...you wanted revenge.  Right?"

  Isaac: "You're damn straight I did!"

  Stone: "So.  I guess there is something you remember about the attack after all.  No more questions."

  "Sanctuary"

Edited February 27, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

And heeere’s some of my faves:

"The Pursuit of Happiness":

Judge Quinn (trial judge) to smarmy defense attorney Tom what'shisface, played by the smarmy Bruce Altman:

"Off the record please. (to stenographer) I can't prove this Tom, but I think you're lying."

Tom: "Your Honor, really--"

Judge Quinn: "Don't play dumb with me, you didn't want Ben to know where you were going.  I'll let you have your witness. One of these days you'll get caught; You're gonna get disbarred, and I'll be there to applaud."

Me: Oh SNAP!

The next scene, between Tom what'shisface and Stone:

Stone: "A Chinese guy could blow you away and get off scott-free because of cross-racial identification.  And that's the most comforting thought I've had all day."

Me: 😂😂🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂

Stone: "Ms. Elkins, apparently Stupid is not willing to go to prison for you."

”Breeder”

*************************

Schiff: "You sure you don't want to recuse yourself?"

Stone: "Well that's insulting. I'm personally against abortion means I can't prosecute a bomber? What I believe doesn't matter.  I represent the law."

Schiff: "Amazing.  I'm getting angry.  The most emotional issue that the law has dealt with since sufferage.  Look at us-Three men! Talking about what right women should have over their own bodies."

"Life Choice"

*******************************

Mike: "Ryder should have popped off his mother and told her where to get off."

Phil: "Are you the expert on lousy moms?"

Mike: "As a matter of fact, I am."

Me: hee. It was said so matter of factly!

"Blood is Thicker"

**************************************

Mike: "It was me, I'd have the operation anyway." (takes a bite out of cold pizza!)

VanBuren: "Oh really? You have anything you'd think twice about cutting off?"

VanBuren and Brisco smirk as Mike pauses to think.

VanBuren: "Seventh grade. What's the first thing you notice about little Susie sitting across the aisle?"

Mike: "Come on! I was 13 years old!"

Lenny: "Oh, and everything's changed since then, right?"

*******************************************************************************

Jack: "Haas tells one patient she's got a cure, it's a little white lie, she tells two patients, it's unforgivable; she tells three patients, she's a murderer! She tells four patients, she's a damn murderer! And it's all admissable!"

"Second Opinion"

***************************************

Stone: "I learned the hard way, for a good deal to be good, there has to be equal consideration, and there is no way you can cough up enough consideration to justify a deal for him."

Melnick: "Why?"

Robinette (retrieves a huge stack of folders): "54 women you either, raped, molested or abused."

Stone: "In the future, Sir, stay off the evening news."

Melnick, who looks like she just swallowed a grapefruit and swallowed crow: "Okay Ben, what do you want?"

Stone: "In a perfect world, I'd like to see your client locked in a room for a week with these women.  But I'll settle for seeing him spend the rest of his life in jail."

Me: Further proof why Ben Stone TOTALLY ROCKS!

"Helpless"

[Passepartout]

Is it just me or did anybody really needed to take Jack McCoy down a notch or two. And really just haul off and hit the jerk at times.

Did not like him for the first five or six years. But then mellowed out with the end of Jamie(whom I thought was a cold as a b*tch) and that really he crossed a line. And that McCoy needed to really put up or shut up. 

Like his successor Mike Cutler was. Jack really just cared about winning. Glad that Arthur Branch, whom I was seemingly the only one I liked while others did not, did not cut Jack boy slack. Guy needed to grow up.

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, Passepartout said:

Did not like him for the first five or six years. But then mellowed out with the end of Jamie(whom I thought was a cold as a b*tch) and that really he crossed a line. And that McCoy needed to really put up or shut up. 

Crossed a line with Jamie? When did that happen? And put up or shut up about what?

[Passepartout]

Meant that Jack crossed in line in that of going to win instead of caring about cases, but only to win. And had been reprimanded.

As not with Jamie but started mellowing out after she left. Jack the Jerk I called him for a few years. Until he started to becoming more of a team player.

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 hours ago, Passepartout said:

Meant that Jack crossed in line in that of going to win instead of caring about cases, but only to win. And had been reprimanded.

As not with Jamie but started mellowing out after she left. Jack the Jerk I called him for a few years. Until he started to becoming more of a team player.

But he was reprimanded. He had to appear before the ethics committee; was taken off from prosecuting a case when he refused to obey Schiff. For all his bombastic and cutting corners, it wasn’t just about winning, he did those things because he believed the defendant was guilty. He didn’t suborn perjury; or try cases that would fall under prosecutorial misconduct.

I loved how he went after Haas. And the Navy Pilot. The Russians and Radford in ”Refuge”

But, potato/potahto.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But he was reprimanded. He had to appear before the ethics committee; was taken off from prosecuting a case when he refused to obey Schiff. For all his bombastic and cutting corners, it wasn’t just about winning, he did those things because he believed the defendant was guilty. He didn’t suborn perjury; or try cases that would fall under prosecutorial misconduct.

I loved how he went after Haas. And the Navy Pilot. The Russians and Radford in ”Refuge”

But, potato/potahto.

I love him going after those people too. It was so great. Deciding not to make the poor kid testify again after his mother was killed and he almost was. Also the one where it looks like the husband killed his wife and son and then they think its the daughter's boyfriend until Jack asks the question why didn't she just take her mother's jewelry to him? Then realize it was payment to kill her mother. I liked Stone and McCoy, even though yes at times Jack did get on his high horse. I did like that he never backed down when people used religion as an excuse to commit murder. He did get in trouble for hiding a witness plus everyone kept reminding him of that from years to come. I do like at the end of Refuge Part II when he's packing up his stuff. He really thought he had to go and understood why since he did disobey a direct order. He really did go after people because he really thought they were guilty. But did stop or have Claire, Jamie, Abby, etc. look into something when new information came to light or when someone said something on the stand that was different or off just to be sure. Or after the verdict. If all he cared about was winning, why bother? The one with the parents who sold their son to a molester for money. He's questioning the son over the time line because the kid should have missed school, the date on the check and it turns out it was a three day weekend. Now Jack could have pointed that out to him while he was on the stand that his parents knew what was going to happen because of the dates on the check as Jack had just realized as he questioned him. Instead waited for a conference room to let him know so the poor boy didn't have to find out on stand that his parents sold him.  

[Spartan Girl]

20 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Watching this now and THIS Should have been Stone’s swan song:

Stone: "Why don't we just take the gloves off, allright? And stop behaving like advocates."

Green: "He killed a man.  That's a crime. Hell, maybe it's even a sin.  But he was provoked."

Stone: "Do you really believe that? That he was provoked by a couple hundred hooligans?"

Green: "By a couple centuries of hate.  Between you and me, Ben, as a Black woman, I'm ashamed of what happened on that street."

Stone: "Are you? You have a hell of a way of showing it."

Green: "You don't get it, do you? I DON'T want that to happen again."

Stone: "No, you don't get it. By infantilizing your own people, you are guaranteeing that it will happen again."

Green: "After all these years, you really had me fooled.  I had no idea that your sort of liberalism only came out of the closet when it was fashionable."

Stone: "Shambala...just once, I want somebody to stand up in this country and say 'I did it.  I'm responsible for my actions.  Not my television set and not the color of my skin.'  And if it makes you feel good, to call me a racist...fine.  But if you're looking for who's responsible for racism these days, take a good look in the mirror."

Me: Wow. Amazing. Gave me chills.😳😳😳

*********************************************************

Stone: "Mr. Roberts...do you regret killing Mr. DeSantis?"

Isaac: "Sure. I don't wanna see anybody dead."

Stone: "What about Mr. Berger? The man who killed Damon Fox."

Isaac: "A little kid gets run down in the street. And nothin' happens to the guy who did it.  What if it was some white kid on Park Avenue and the car was driven by a Brother?"

Stone: "But it wasn't. It was a Jewish businessman up in Harlem. He's walking the streets. And you could go to prison... for the rest of your life."

Isaac: "What else is new? They own the banks, the buildings. A Jew snaps his finger, and everyone comes running."

Stone: "Now is that what you were thinking about when you saw Mr. DeSantis?"

  Isaac: "I don't know.  Maybe."

  Stone (smiling conspiratorially): "Come on...you wanted revenge.  Right?"

  Isaac: "You're damn straight I did!"

  Stone: "So.  I guess there is something you remember about the attack after all.  No more questions."

  "Sanctuary"

I loved all that too. And yes, you're right, it SHOULD have been Ben's swan song, if only because, like him, I was so pissed off and frustrated that the guy got off even after all that. Wouldn't have blamed him if he quit right then and there!

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I loved all that too. And yes, you're right, it SHOULD have been Ben's swan song, if only because, like him, I was so pissed off and frustrated that the guy got off even after all that. Wouldn't have blamed him if he quit right then and there!

I should have clarified--that instead of "Old Friends" which was Moriarty's last episode due to real life politics and him going cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs (STILL BITTER!!!!) "Sanctuary" should have been his last episode, because EVERYTHING he said to Adam at the end, that it was a result he couldn't accept or live with, set it up organically.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I should have clarified--that instead of "Old Friends" which was Moriarty's last episode due to real life politics and him going cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs (STILL BITTER!!!!) "Sanctuary" should have been his last episode, because EVERYTHING he said to Adam at the end, that it was a result he couldn't accept or live with, set it up organically.

Oh, I agree, I never liked Stone's final episode. Mostly do to the woman keeps going on and on how if she didn't testify she'd be left alone. And everyone seems to go along with it because no one points out to her that whether she testified or not the mob was never going to leave her alone. She was liability, even if she refused didn't testify, it wouldn't change anything. They were still going to kill her.  They know this. By this point they had dealt with the mob many times. But no one does.  The other ones were so much better. Sanctuary would have been perfect. It fit why he was would leave. It was a great episode. They should have gone with that. 

[Xeliou66]

I agree that Sanctuary would’ve been a better exit for Stone than Old Friends, I felt that Stone resigning in protest of Schiff’s decision not to retry the case would’ve been a very fitting exit for Stone, who always had such strong moral convictions and was very upset by the case. 

I love both Stone and McCoy, they are different but both are awesome characters. McCoy did cross the line a couple of times, notably in Under the Infleunce where he hid the witness and later got called before the disciplinary committee for it, and in Refuge when he tried to hold the mobsters without charge. 

[Passepartout]

Yeah as that lady BTW of Stone's last case was played by a then unknown Alison Janey of Mom and the West Wing before she became an Oscar winner.

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 minutes ago, Passepartout said:

Yeah as that lady BTW of Stone's last case was played by a then unknown Alison Janey of Mom and the West Wing before she became an Oscar winner.

“Old Friends” Was Allison Janney’s second appearance. She first guest starred in Season Two’s ”Star Struck” as the victim’s secretary. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[Passepartout]

Really Ben come to think of it was a robot. Jack was more emotional. But really what really irked me was Jack really blasted the police at times for not having a case for him when they were trying really hard. 

Lt Van Buren in particular as she and Jack have a love-hate relationship. After "Competence" where she shot a kid robbing her. It made me dislike him even more in his first season. But then later on they started calling each other by their first names about.

But in the "Fed" episode she really gave it to him. To back down. She should had done that about all along. If she was given a rough time from him. Jack was passionate but at times, wished the LT would had given it to him to put up or shut up. 

[andromeda331]

Blood Money is a really good episode. Horrifying of course. There's not much lower then selling life insurance to Jewish people during WWII. Given how horrible the victim was its almost karmic justice that he ends up robbed, shot and stabbed to death. But still a very good episode. A murder that first leads no where then ends up leading to a much bigger one. The son turning out to have shot his father and testifies. He also has the choice to take the 5th when questioned on the murder and he ends up admitting what he did and explaining why. The defense lawyer objecting claiming he was not answering the question and over ruled. Ah, he was answering the question. The lawyer deciding after watching the son testified to testify for the prosecution because he was ruined by his father's actions and didn't want his own son to be ruined (although that'll probably still be a hard conversation he'll have with his son).  

Edited March 1, 2019 by andromeda331

[andromeda331]

Patsy, is another really great episode. And unexpected. It looks like Ken Taylor tried to kill Cecelia because she wouldn't let up on him for the murder of her sister and instead ends up in Coma. Ken was a suspect but it could never be proven. He insists he didn't do it but the evidence is overwhelming. He ends up taking a plea. Then it comes out that Cecelia set the whole thing up. Going to crazy levels like getting the condom from one of his hookers.  So he's let go on that one but tried on the murder of the sister after searching a barn and finding Julie's body in the bag.  So McCoy tries him thinking that he still killed the sister. While the defense point to Cecelia. Both lawyers end up going to far in their closing statements Jack's going further and gets a mistrial. He insist he's going to try again while visiting Cecelia still in a coma until Abby tells him they found Cecelia's old car and Julie's hair or DNA was found...in the trunk. So its entirely possible Cecelia did kill her sister although what happened later was crazy unless that was a result of her not ending up with Ken and she decided to frame him for the murder instead. One of her former co-workers did mention a similar case and giving her a card for a therapist. Its still possible Ken killed Julie. Her body was found on his family's land but Cecelia knew about it. So did Ken kill Julie or did Cecelia? They won't know until Cecelia wakes up assuming she ever does. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Passepartout said:

Really Ben come to think of it was a robot. Jack was more emotional. But really what really irked me was Jack really blasted the police at times for not having a case for him when they were trying really hard. 

Lt Van Buren in particular as she and Jack have a love-hate relationship. After "Competence" where she shot a kid robbing her. It made me dislike him even more in his first season. But then later on they started calling each other by their first names about.

But in the "Fed" episode she really gave it to him. To back down. She should had done that about all along. If she was given a rough time from him. Jack was passionate but at times, wished the LT would had given it to him to put up or shut up. 

 I disliked him in Competence too. He was a real jerk to her. And not in the way that he feels he has to given how close the DA is to officers especially Van Buren. She really should have gave it to him that episode. He really seems to think she's guilty.

[Passepartout]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

 I disliked him in Competence too. He was a real jerk to her. And not in the way that he feels he has to given how close the DA is to officers especially Van Buren. She really should have gave it to him that episode. He really seems to think she's guilty.

Yeah but at least she got back at him in Fed and he just seemed to be shocked when she did that to him. Karma is a you know what. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Passepartout said:

Yeah but at least she got back at him in Fed and he just seemed to be shocked when she did that to him. Karma is a you know what. 

Yes, she did and it was really great.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I would never consider Ben Stone a "robot." He felt deeply about the Law, about murder; his rage was very controlled. Jack was very bombastic. I'll take Ben over Jack, and I loved Jack. But I love Ben more.

I always believed that it was the sister who was guilty in "Patsy." The ending confirmed it for me. Even if the lovely Sebastian Roche was playing Ken, when he played that icky rapist Cue Squared whatever Rocker in season four.

Van Buren and Jack didn't have a love-hate relationship; they were colleagues and friends. I think, if I recall correctly in "Competence," Jack felt he had to go "by the book" if you will, as not to show favoritism. Even if he came off like a jerkwad. And karma, I don't think, makes sense here. Yes, later, she would get in his face. But frankly, it all depended on the case, and who was writing the episode. Hell, in "Killerz" Jack is saying that Green was overly aggressive with that twit Tara. I didn't see any aggressiveness there. He wasn't threatening her or getting in her face. How ELSE would he have gotten her to confess it was her and Jenny that hid Aron's body in the tunnel?

I'm gonna blame Liv's pregnancy in her absolutely ridiculous Pollyanna view that Jenny was redeemable. It's been said before and I'll chime in, but I do wish the show had revisited this case to let us know if Jenny killed again. Hell, we had "Coma" and "Encore"; "Indifference" and "Fixed."

And for those that enjoyed the movie that never happened and that SCREWED over Mike Logan, make Lennie into Pod!Lennie, Jack even more of an asshole in his 30 second scene, SunDance is airing Exiled: A Law and Order Movie tonight.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I would never consider Ben Stone a "robot." He felt deeply about the Law, about murder; his rage was very controlled. Jack was very bombastic. I'll take Ben over Jack, and I loved Jack. But I love Ben more

I liked both. They were both very different which is good. I hate when shows bring in a replacement and their basically the same. It doesn't work. Here you have two different personalities. Ben is polite, well spoken, and controlled. He does care about the law and following the law. Jack is more passionate, outspoken, and I do think he cares more about putting away murderers then the law. He has gone too far a couple times where Ben never did. The first was him hiding a witness and second of course in Refuge when he was trying to keep the mobsters in jail. He got in trouble for the first one. Ben never would have done either one no matter how angry he was. They both cared about the victims and holding murderers accountable for their crimes.    

Quote

I always believed that it was the sister who was guilty in "Patsy." The ending confirmed it for me. Even if the lovely Sebastian Roche was playing Ken, when he played that icky rapist Cue Squared whatever Rocker in season four.

I believed that too after the co-worker said mentioned the previous incident. The fact she went so far to frame him for attacking her is definitely big red flag but not impossible if she had truly believed he murdered her sister. Learning she had that previous incident with another guy confirmed it for me. If her co-worker/friend had to talk to her and gave her the number for a therapist. Then yeah she's crazy enough to have murdered her own sister. I like how they set it up. Until the hooker it looked like it was Ken. He had a temper, there was DNA, and he seemed like the typical suspect.   Then have it turn completely around and the victim set up the whole thing. 

[Scarlett45]

I think I’ve seen almost every episode of the mothership but I do not recognize episode titles like you guys! I don’t know what episode you’re talking about until I get the plot. I’ll pay more attention so I can contribute to this thread. 

[Xeliou66]

Regarding Patsy, I definitely agree that Cecilia killed her sister, she was a fruitcake who was obsessed with Ken and she killed her sister out of jealousy IMO. I liked the twists throughout the episode with it appearing Ken definitely attacked Cecilia to it turning out that Cecilia framed him and wound up putting herself in a coma accidentally and then the deal with the sister’s murder. The trial scenes were good with both Garnett and McCoy going too far in their closing arguments resulting in a mistrial. I felt like McCoy couldn’t accept at the end that he might have been wrong the whole time. 

I always liked the relationships between the DA’s and the cops, there was some friction but overall there was a mutual respect. 

I love both Stone and McCoy: McCoy was more emotional and overtly passionate while Stone was very stoic, business like and reserved, both were great, I slightly prefer McCoy to Stone though. 

On 3/1/2019 at 8:23 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

And for those that enjoyed the movie that never happened and that SCREWED over Mike Logan, make Lennie into Pod!Lennie, Jack even more of an asshole in his 30 second scene, SunDance is airing Exiled: A Law and Order Movie tonight.

Don’t get me started on Exiled, I don’t think I will ever watch it again. It was a terrible movie, there was so much wrong with it: the plot was dull, the pace was off with a lot of filler scenes of characters riding the ferry etc, there was no legal/DA’s stuff minus the less than 1 minute scene with McCoy, and everyone seemed off and OOC. I wish that movie had never been made, and I’m glad it wasn’t the last we saw of Logan.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I think that Jack did what he did in his closing because the Judge refused the sidebar, refused to strike Garnett’s theory that Cecilia had killed her sister. So he did what he did so that the judge would declare a mistrial. Not one of Jack’s finest moments, and proof that he refused to believe he was wrong. He was proven wrong about Ken attacking Cecilia, but wouldn’t concede that she killed her sister because she wanted Ken for herself. I hated how that episode ended.

And the show made a mistake in airing ”Justice” and not having Jack be happy to see her and inquire about David and what she was up to. Because when she appeared again in 2001, in ”School Daze”, it’s as if they hadn’t seen each other since she left the DA’s office. And “Marathon” was another stupid episode, with Jack coming down on VanBuren for Lennie “prematurely” arresting Sabo. Though I appreciate the nod to continuity for his lying in ”Stalker” when the victim was murdered. But man, was Ed an asshole. As was the Chief of Dicks at 1PP. I think there was another guy who was chief of detectives in the final season-the one who suggested she use marijuana to deal with effects of chemo. Because THIS DICK? was holding a grudge against her for having the guts to file a discrimination suit against the department. And he was acting as if the victim was one of those ultra wealthy important people that they normally get in cops’ faces for not solving fast enough. And the victim was just a regular person. Exhibit A- “Merger” where Anne Twomey’s character murdered her granddaughter, and Adam wouldn’t let Jack file. And when Abby said that the laws were different for the rich, His line at the end said it all: ”What laws for the rich?”

I hate when realism like this seeps in! I wanted her ass arrested and found guilty!!!

Edited March 3, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[andromeda331]

Watching back to back episode with Serena is a bad idea. It makes it even easier to see how annoying she is.  She lectures Jack that they can't pick and chose laws in Asterisk. Funny that seems to be what she wants to do in Tragedy on Rye when Branch decided he wanted to use the death penalty on the three men who they thought murdered the woman for her TV. She gets mad at Branch and Jack who goes along with it. Jack points out it does fit the criteria for the death penalty. She doesn't care and gets all mad. Oh, so its okay then for her to pick and chose the laws to follow. Only when its something she doesn't like.