Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[WendyCR72]

4 minutes ago, balmz said:

i know, was suppose to be a joke, oh well i tried

Nah, I'm just dense as hell! All good.  🙂

[Xeliou66]

Worst things the main characters have done is a very interesting question - I’ll delve into it

On the police side

Fontana frequently came across as an abusive power hungry asshole who got off on being an ass to everyone and thought he had the right to because he had a badge, there were many occasions of him being a dick - yes him sticking the dude’s head in the toilet was wrong as I believe torture is always wrong regardless of the circumstances, but what was almost more disturbing to me was his willingness to lie. Fontana was really an asshole. 

Nina Cassady didn’t really do anything awful, she was just an awful character and an incompetent detective. 

Logan forcing a confession from Greevey’s killer at gunpoint was disturbing, and Logan was overly aggressive in a few other episode (I think he might’ve executed the gun dealer that shot Cerreta on the spot in Prince of Darkness had Cragen and the others not been there). His aggressiveness of course finally came back to bite Logan in the ass when he assaulted the councilman and got demoted and sent to Staten Island.

Curtis crossed the line a few times and was self righteous to boot - he choked a suspect in Savages, he roughed up the guy who was cheating on his wife and wouldn’t tell the truth in Menace, he let the dad slap the kid in Slave, and he frequently behaved like a self righteous ass and a hypocrite. I was never a fan of Curtis - at least Van Buren and Briscoe frequently called him out for his behavior. 

Greevey was a pompous dick and him sympathizing with the people who bombed the abortion clinic in Life Choice was fucked up. 

As for Briscoe - he never actually did it, but he implied he would be willing to commit perjury in both Double Down and Bait, which was disturbing. And his previous actions when he was drinking that got exposed in Corruption didn't make him look great, but he never did anything corrupt or crossed the line really and he didn’t rough up suspects. 

Green had some personal stuff that didn’t make him look great but overall he didn’t do anything that really crossed the line, other than maybe trying to force a confession at gunpoint in his first episode of the mass murderer until Briscoe stopped him, he was a bit hot tempered at times but overall he didn’t do anything awful. 

Bernard’s comments about abortion in Dignity were appalling, and he was rough with a suspect in the hospital in Shotgun, other than those 2 instances I can’t think of anything with him. 

Lupo, Cerreta, Cragen and Van Buren are the ones where I can’t think of any instance where they crossed the line or did something very bad, both Cragen and Van Buren were great squad leaders, Cerreta was very calm and by the book, and Lupo was calm as well and didn’t do anything very wrong. 

 

For the DA’s

McCoy did some ethically questionable things - I agree that he was wrong to overturn the same sex marriages in Gov Love, I don’t think it was the worst thing ever done by a main character, not by a long shot, but I didn’t agree with it and I agreed with Serena, one of the few times I did so. McCoy also crossed the line some in Mad Dog, it bordered on obsession with getting the rapist until Schiff told him to stop and called him out. McCoy did a few other things that were questionable, such as trying to hold the mobsters without charge in Refuge, but usually I agreed with him and thought what he was doing wasn’t illegal and was in the interests of justice, and he did get called out a few times for his behavior and even admitted he was wrong in later episodes a couple of times. 

Cutter did some ethically questionable things as well - his worst moment IMO was when he tricked the mentally ill killer into assaulting him in Skate or Die so he would be forcibly medicated, Olivet was right to be angry and Jack should’ve taken him off the case. 

I can’t really think of anything Ben Stone did that was questionable, he was extremely by the book. 

The most honorable and upstanding character in the show’s history was Schiff, he never did anything remotely unethical or that crossed the line. 

Nora was too soft for a DA but never did anything that crossed the line. 

Branch didn’t really do anything that crossed the line either, I didn’t care for a lot of his politics but he was upstanding and ethical. 

Robinette didn’t do anything that crossed the line but he wasn’t nearly as likable when he returned as a defense attorney. 

Kincaid slept with the creepy judge from Censure before we knew her, other than that I can’t think of anything she did.

Ross was pretty by the book and didn’t do anything ethically questionable except for maybe in her first episode when she wanted the expert to testify the voice on the tape was a stronger match for the defendant than the expert could, that was just a mild case and the writers were still figuring out the character.

Carmichael was overly aggressive some of the time and her worst moment was in Agony when she suggested putting the serial killer in prison for a crime they knew he didn’t commit, that was disturbing. 

Serena sympathizing with the parents who let their kid be raped by a pedophile in Smoke was fucked up, she never did anything unethical really but she was too soft and sympathetic for a prosecutor. 

Borgia was frequently self righteous and her comments in In God We Trust disturbed me with how she seemed to think that a killer becoming a Christian should mean they should get a lighter sentence-get off. 

I can’t think of anything Rubirosa did that crossed the line. 

 

So there we have it, my complete list of the worst things that the main characters did - the worst offenders were Fontana and Curtis IMO, they did a lot of screwed up things IMO, with Logan right behind them. I know people are mixed on McCoy and some of the things that he did, but I usually sided with him. Schiff and Van Buren were probably the most upstanding, ethical characters. It’s an interesting discussion and I’m curious as to what others think. 

[balmz]

On 5/27/2020 at 11:20 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Worst things the main characters have done is a very interesting question - I’ll delve into it

On the police side

Fontana frequently came across as an abusive power hungry asshole who got off on being an ass to everyone and thought he had the right to because he had a badge, there were many occasions of him being a dick - yes him sticking the dude’s head in the toilet was wrong as I believe torture is always wrong regardless of the circumstances, but what was almost more disturbing to me was his willingness to lie. Fontana was really an asshole. 

 

Robinette didn’t do anything that crossed the line but he wasn’t nearly as likable when he returned as a defense attorney. 

 

you sure you're not confusing fontana with stabler? 😛 

 

with what is happening irl right now, i always wondered if the reason was with different racial tensions like the rodney king riots and other hate crimes against blacks if it left him jaded at the system and that's why he was so different

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't think there's a thread for this, and even if one was created, I don't know that it would get much traffic, so I'm posting this here. It's Hilarious, and my favorite is Ronnie's "cup o' tea?"

 

 

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don't think there's a thread for this, and even if one was created, I don't know that it would get much traffic, so I'm posting this here. It's Hilarious, and my favorite is Ronnie's "cup o' tea?"

 

 

And, for the uninitiated, the UK version adapted old American episodes (in the opening credits, the original American writers and episode name are listed!). And Ronnie is that show's Lennie, the linchpin character.

[GHScorpiosRule]

18 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

And, for the uninitiated, the UK version adapted old American episodes. And Ronnie is that show's "Lennie", the linchpin character.

Yup! And they did a mostly good job, but there were some clunkers. I say that because it was supposed to be the U.K. version of the U.S. show--kind of like how Gracepoint was the U.S. version of Broadchurch. But they deviated a few times.

Ben Daniels was Ben Stone/Jack McCoy hybrid

Yummy Jamie Bamber was Mike Logan, but in the episodes that had Rey judgementalsanctimoniousassholeCurtis, Bamber's Matt Devlin was still Mike. 

I'm reading all the posts in the Archived TWoP, and it makes me miss all those fellow posters who didn't come here with the migration.

And I'm rewatching on Sundance NOW, bloody streaming service because I can't watch it anywhere's else. I'll just cancel after I've watched it all. 😝

And the same guy who created and wrote for Broadchurch and Gracepoint, Chris Chibnell, wrote for L&O: U.K.

Edited June 3, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[Ailianna]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And the same guy who created and wrote for Broadchurch and Gracepoint, Chris Chibnell, wrote for L&O: U.K.

And Dr. Who.

[Xeliou66]

I saw Fed today, this is a really good episode, it was a nicely layered plot with the murder victim trying to make the organization look bad and uncovering the payoff/embezzlement to cover up the affair and getting killed as a result. It had everyone working together to get to bottom of the case, I liked how in the later seasons it seemed there was more interaction between the detectives and prosecutors. I liked how Van Buren got a heavy role in the episode, she’s such a great character who was often underused, and the tension between her and the prosecutors was interesting, she came close to blowing up at McCoy in his office before stepping outside instead. I liked the scene at the end with Van Buren and McCoy where McCoy told her her and the squad had done a good job with closing the case, it was a nice scene. 

This was also the episode where Curtis returned for a cameo, I was never a big fan of Rey Curtis but I liked how they brought him back for a cameo, revealing that he was now working in California (I guess he took the job with the movie studio that he was offered back in the season 7 3 part episode), it was good continuity and closure for the character, and I liked how he mentioned Lennie and how he said to Van Buren that “Morris” mentioned she was sick, I’m sure that was Morris Lamonte, the detective who had a minor role in some episodes in seasons 9-10, that was a really nice little “Easter egg” for L&O diehards. 

McCoy’s line about feeling like a corn cob in a pig sty after the town hall meeting was hilarious. 

Also amusing was ME Rodgers swatting Lupo’s hand away when tried to take a swab from the victims hair and telling him “anytime you want to change jobs let me know”, I love Rodgers and her interactions with the detectives. 

Most of season 20’s episodes were really strong, it’s really a shame the show got canceled afterwards, at least it went out on a high note. 

[balmz]

On 6/5/2020 at 5:43 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I saw Fed today, this is a really good episode, it was a nicely layered plot with the murder victim trying to make the organization look bad and uncovering the payoff/embezzlement to cover up the affair and getting killed as a result. It had everyone working together to get to bottom of the case, I liked how in the later seasons it seemed there was more interaction between the detectives and prosecutors. I liked how Van Buren got a heavy role in the episode, she’s such a great character who was often underused, and the tension between her and the prosecutors was interesting, she came close to blowing up at McCoy in his office before stepping outside instead. I liked the scene at the end with Van Buren and McCoy where McCoy told her her and the squad had done a good job with closing the case, it was a nice scene. 

This was also the episode where Curtis returned for a cameo, I was never a big fan of Rey Curtis but I liked how they brought him back for a cameo, revealing that he was now working in California (I guess he took the job with the movie studio that he was offered back in the season 7 3 part episode), it was good continuity and closure for the character, and I liked how he mentioned Lennie and how he said to Van Buren that “Morris” mentioned she was sick, I’m sure that was Morris Lamonte, the detective who had a minor role in some episodes in seasons 9-10, that was a really nice little “Easter egg” for L&O diehards. 

McCoy’s line about feeling like a corn cob in a pig sty after the town hall meeting was hilarious. 

Also amusing was ME Rodgers swatting Lupo’s hand away when tried to take a swab from the victims hair and telling him “anytime you want to change jobs let me know”, I love Rodgers and her interactions with the detectives. 

Most of season 20’s episodes were really strong, it’s really a shame the show got canceled afterwards, at least it went out on a high note. 

maybe it's just as well it was cancelled, so we can still remember it fondly and it didn't become trash like svu is now

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, balmz said:

maybe it's just as well it was cancelled, so we can still remember it fondly and it didn't become trash like svu is now

It’s a shame that SVU got the record 21 seasons and not the Mothership, since the Mothership was so much more high quality, but it is a good thing that the Mothership went out on a high note and never became the garbage joke of a show SVU is now. 

[Door County Cherry]

12 hours ago, balmz said:

maybe it's just as well it was cancelled, so we can still remember it fondly and it didn't become trash like svu is now

I don't think it would have been like SVU.  SVU is and has always been way too invested in "taking it personally."  That's not to say there haven't been cases that affected the cops or prosecutors but the episodes were always centered around the case as opposed to the characters. They had good seasons and bad seasons but I even find the "bad" seasons watchable. And I think the fact that there is more cast turnover on L&O helped move on from bad seasons. 

[Xeliou66]

Just now, Door County Cherry said:

I don't think it would have been like SVU.  SVU is and has always been way too invested in "taking it personally."  That's not to say there haven't been cases that affected the cops or prosecutors but the episodes were always centered around the case as opposed to the characters. They had good seasons and bad seasons but I even find the "bad" seasons watchable. And I think the fact that there is more cast turnover on L&O helped move on from bad seasons. 

Which seasons of L&O would you consider bad? I think they were all good, I mean season 17 I believe was the weakest but even it was still good and far better than 99% of the dog shit on TV now. I agree that it might not have become like SVU, given that SVU always had a lot more soapy elements and personal focus as well as being less of an ensemble, while the Mothership was always about the cases with only minor personal stuff. But I’m glad the Mothership went out on a strong note instead of a weak one. 

[stonehaven]

Yep, that final season of the Mothership was gold and that episode is still one of the best of the series.

[Door County Cherry]

18 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Which seasons of L&O would you consider bad? I think they were all good, I mean season 17 I believe was the weakest but even it was still good

So this is tricky for me. I think all seasons are rewatchable for me.  I even get excited to see seasons with Govich and Farina because those are some of my least-seen episodes.  I may have not even seen a few which is unthinkable considering how often I've rewatched this show.  

But without a doubt my least favorite seasons were around 7 and 8 (all kicked off by Aftershock) when they did go more of an SVU route and leaned heavily into the personal lives of cops.  Rey (who is probably my least favorite detective) had his marital struggles and then his wife's illness.  We had Lennie's daughter having her addiction issues and subsequent death. Carrie was trying to set up Jack.  She was dealing with her custody situation too. 

I didn't mind a bit of personal here and there but it was a lot in 7 and 8.  

[Xeliou66]

13 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

So this is tricky for me. I think all seasons are rewatchable for me.  I even get excited to see seasons with Govich and Farina because those are some of my least-seen episodes.  I may have not even seen a few which is unthinkable considering how often I've rewatched this show.  

But without a doubt my least favorite seasons were around 7 and 8 (all kicked off by Aftershock) when they did go more of an SVU route and leaned heavily into the personal lives of cops.  Rey (who is probably my least favorite detective) had his marital struggles and then his wife's illness.  We had Lennie's daughter having her addiction issues and subsequent death. Carrie was trying to set up Jack.  She was dealing with her custody situation too. 

I didn't mind a bit of personal here and there but it was a lot in 7 and 8.  

Seasons 15-17 were the weakest IMO in terms of the writing/cases IMO, they were still good just not as good as the rest of the seasons. 

Season 8 was the season that had way too much personal crap and weakened the show while adding nothing - Curtis’ family issues (I never liked Curtis either), Briscoe’s daughter’s death, Van Buren suing the department, Schiff’s re-election, McCoy facing the disciplinary committee, and Ross fighting her ex for custody. It was stupid of the show to throw in a personal storyline for each character that season, and it dragged down the show. Fortunately they never did it again. Season 8 isn’t my favorite for those reasons, the final couple of episodes of season 8 weren’t very good. But season 8 had a lot of very good episodes. 

What do you mean by “Carrie” (I assume you mean Jamie Ross) trying to set up McCoy? 

[GHScorpiosRule]

After watching all but the last season of Law & Order: U.K. (I stopped watching during the original run after Jamie Bamber left and didn't watch the rest), I'm now in the mood for some Righteous Ben Stone and Fiery Jack McCoy!

Forget Sundance. For some reason, those twats only ever air Seasons 13-20 and every so often, we might, might get the early seasons. But yay! I have Bounce. Just watched close to the end of Nora's regime. Only two more left; but Wednesday will air Season one's official pilot "Prescription for Death" and that make me so happy!

But in today's Season 12's "Slaughter", this line from Lennie (as only Jerry Orbach could do!) always makes me 😂😂

Lennie: "What's the matter? You look like you're about to have a COW."

Hilarious because the case had to do with the negligent and gross manner of well, slaughtering beef. But Orbach's inflection and tone just makes me laugh.

Admit it, y'all think the same thing!

Edited June 9, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

So, "Dazzled."

Jenny (daughter) had this bright idea that if she killed her stepmother, that her toxic parents would get back together again? Never mind that Kate was the trophy wife; that's a separate issue. And then that meltdown. Was I supposed to feel sorry for her? Because I didn't. I just wanted to slap her upside the head.

And no wonder she looked familiar when doing a rewatch. The actress played Renata in Criminal Intent when Mike returned in "Unchained"--David Keith's naive daughter.

Yes, I'm mean.

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So, "Dazzled."

Jenny (daughter) had this bright idea that if she killed her stepmother, that her toxic parents would get back together again? Never mind that Kate was the trophy wife; that's a separate issue. And then that meltdown. Was I supposed to feel sorry for her? Because I didn't. I just wanted to slap her upside the head.

And no wonder she looked familiar when doing a rewatch. The actress played Renata in Criminal Intent when Mike returned in "Unchained"--David Keith's naive daughter.

Yes, I'm mean.

Yeah I didn’t really feel sorry for the killer either in Dazzled, and I found that episode rather dull. Isn’t that the episode that opened with the great line from Briscoe about “it’s no wonder the neighbors keep dropping in” about the guy’s backyard that the victim had fallen into. That was a terrific one liner. 

[Broderbits]

My biggest complaint about L&O is that when they show the 2 episodes that were part of a crossover with Homicide, we never get to see the conclusions. We're just left hanging. I wish some network would rerun Homicide; it doesn't seem to be on Amazon Video anymore and the complete season dvd's aren't available.

[Xeliou66]

8 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

My biggest complaint about L&O is that when they show the 2 episodes that were part of a crossover with Homicide, we never get to see the conclusions. We're just left hanging. I wish some network would rerun Homicide; it doesn't seem to be on Amazon Video anymore and the complete season dvd's aren't available.

Drives me fucking nuts as well!!!! I just watched Baby It’s You tonight and it drives me nuts how they never show part 2. However you can find full episodes of Homicide online, just do a search and you will find them, and the DVD’s of Homicide are available the last I checked, I ordered them a few years ago. Homicide was a great show as well with some great characters, especially in its first few seasons, it got bogged down by soapy crap by the end and certain characters never got used enough, but it was a really good show that deserves to be reran somewhere, I wish a network would pick it up. 

[WendyCR72]

It is currently out of stock, but Amazon does have a listing up for Homicide: Life On The Street Complete Series. It says you can order now and it will be shipped once available.

Here is an eBay listing for the more recent edition (don't know the difference(s) involved), almost the same price as the Amazon listing.

[shapeshifter]

19.3 "Lost Boys" just re-aired on ION:

Quote

An investigation into the death of a 17-year-old boy leads Lupo and Bernard into the world of a fundamentalist Mormon sect, its polygamist leader, and one of his wives who is trying to get away from him.

In my head I wrote a sequel episode in which the pregnant teen mother who returned to the cult has a daughter this time, and so decides to escape again, this time with her kids. Or maybe 15 years later she escapes with her sons.

[GHScorpiosRule]

"Prescription for Death"

BEST Line of the episode and always makes me 😂😂🤣😅

Asshole Nevins (Defense Attorney): "Is it possible that pneumonia killed Suzanne Morton?"

AWESOME ME Daniel Benzali, looks down his spectacles: "It's possible that DEATH RAYS FROM MARS killed her, but I don't think so."

Edited June 11, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

"Prescription for Death"

BEST Line of the episode and always makes me 😂😂🤣😅

Asshole Nevins (Defense Attorney): "Is it possible that pneumonia killed Suzanne Morton?"

AWESOME ME Daniel Benzali, looks down his spectacles: "It's possible that DEATH RAYS FROM MARS killed her, but I don't think so."

Possibly best line of any episode of any show ever. And perfect delivery.

[shapeshifter]

Yesterday 19.7 "Zero" aired on ION (in the midst of 15 other episodes) in which:

Quote

Lupo and Bernard investigate the murder of an environmentalist's wife, but the case takes a turn when the victim's car is found with another body inside; at trial, Cutter suspects the clerk and the judge of obstructing justice.

This is the one with the judge with dementia whose clerk is feeding him answers via a tablet or monitor on the bench in front of him. Cutter introduces himself to the judge several times.  The judge seemingly has zero short term memory. Cutter eventually teams up with opposing counsel to have the judge removed. 
I was left wondering if Cutter had let it go (he was going to win the case anyway) wouldn't the judge have lost all ability to function pretty soon anyway? Like, wandering off? Maybe not. The clerk accompanied him to court. Maybe she waited outside the Mens Room for him too. But eventually he would not have been able to get himself dressed and outside his home to meet the car. I guess she would have had to hire a caretaker for that.

ETA: Cutter does point out to Jack that he feels ethically obligated to get the judge removed from the bench because an innocent person might get convicted by the mentally impaired judge. 
I don’t recall Jack’s reply, but innocent people get convicted all the time. Possibly an innocent person could get off with the judge with dementia and get convicted with another judge overseeing the trial. 
Also, since the clerk (who has passed the bar) is really making the judicial decisions, Cutter is really questioning her abilities —including her ability to manipulate the judge —which we see is a valid concern. 
But Cutter doesn’t mention it to Jack, does he? —perhaps because she’s a friend. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by shapeshifter
Typo

[Xeliou66]

On 6/10/2020 at 10:08 AM, shapeshifter said:

19.3 "Lost Boys" just re-aired on ION:

In my head I wrote a sequel episode in which the pregnant teen mother who returned to the cult has a daughter this time, and so decides to escape again, this time with her kids. Or maybe 15 years later she escapes with her sons.

Lost Boys was a good episode with a very frustrating ending, and I was left wondering what happened to the actual murderer, the guy who killed Caleb in order to prevent him from delivering Michelle back to Landon, I wonder what his sentence was, it was implied he would take a plea deal and I hope he didn’t get too harsh of a sentence as I thought there was a massive mitigating factor in that he only killed in order to protect Michelle from being kidnapped by Landon, if he went to trial his justification defense might’ve worked. I wish they had cleared up what the outcome of his case was. 

 

16 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

"Prescription for Death"

BEST Line of the episode and always makes me 😂😂🤣😅

Asshole Nevins (Defense Attorney): "Is it possible that pneumonia killed Suzanne Morton?"

AWESOME ME Daniel Benzali, looks down his spectacles: "It's possible that DEATH RAYS FROM MARS killed her, but I don't think so."

Agreed that’s a great line, but I was surprised the judge didn’t rebuke him for it. In the early episodes of season 1 there was a lot more noise and chaos in the courtroom and the judges rarely did anything, in later seasons they quickly would’ve told everyone to shut up. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

22 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Agreed that’s a great line, but I was surprised the judge didn’t rebuke him for it.

It's not as if Benzali was editorializing or going beyond the scope of the question. Nevins asked him one posssibility, which was ridiculous based on the evidence, and he answered with another possibility!

But yeah, a lot noise from the peanut gallery.

[shapeshifter]

49 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Lost Boys was a good episode with a very frustrating ending, and I was left wondering what happened to the actual murderer, the guy who killed Caleb in order to prevent him from delivering Michelle back to Landon, I wonder what his sentence was, it was implied he would take a plea deal and I hope he didn’t get too harsh of a sentence as I thought there was a massive mitigating factor in that he only killed in order to protect Michelle from being kidnapped by Landon, if he went to trial his justification defense might’ve worked. I wish they had cleared up what the outcome of his case was.

Yes. That too! 
Okay. My afterward...
Some technical error during the trial makes it a mistrial and they decide not to retry him because other fish to fry.
So. Does he go on to live a law abiding life? Or is he so psychologically damaged (perhaps also in prison in addition to having been born into a cult) that he becomes a serial killer? 😨

ETA: 
Or, more likely, he spends a few years in prison
...being "protected" by some big guy whose mom was a Mormon.
He gets a law degree and helps people escaping from abusive homes who have committed felonies, and also works with the Innocence Project.
If someone who is guilty of manslaughter can practice law? 
 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by shapeshifter

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes. That too! 
Okay. My afterward...
Some technical error during the trial makes it a mistrial and they decide not to retry him because other fish to fry.
So. Does he go on to live a law abiding life? Or is he so psychologically damaged (perhaps also in prison in addition to having been born into a cult) that he becomes a serial killer? 😨

ETA: 
Or, more likely, he spends a few years in prison
...being "protected" by some big guy whose mom was a Mormon.
He gets a law degree and helps people escaping from abusive homes who have committed felonies, and also works with the Innocence Project.
If someone who is guilty of manslaughter can practice law? 
 

 

I figured they would work out a plea deal with him where he serves a few years for manslaughter but I wish they had cleared that up. Instead the case became all about Landon. 

[wknt3]

20 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Yesterday 19.7 "Zero" aired on ION (in the midst of 15 other episodes) in which:

This is the one with the judge with dementia whose clerk is feeding him answers via a tablet or monitor on the bench in front of him. Cutter introduces himself to the judge several times.  The judge seemingly has zero short term memory. Cutter eventually teams up with opposing counsel to have the judge removed. 
I was left wondering if Cutter had let it go (he was going to win the case anyway) wouldn't the judge have lost all ability to function pretty soon anyway? Like, wandering off? Maybe not. The clerk accompanied him to court. Maybe she waited outside the Mens Room for him too. But eventually he would not have been able to get himself dressed and outside his home to meet the car. I guess she would have had to hire a caretaker for that.

ETA: Cutter does point out to Jack that he feels ethically obligated to get the judge removed from the bench because an innocent person might get convicted by the mentally impaired judge. 
I don’t recall Jack’s reply, but innocent people get convicted all the time. Possibly an innocent person could get off with the judge with dementia and get convicted with another judge overseeing the trial. 
Also, since the clerk (who has passed the bar) is really making the judicial decisions, Cutter is really questioning her abilities —including her ability to manipulate the judge —which we see is a valid concern. 
But Cutter doesn’t mention it to Jack, does he? —perhaps because she’s a friend. 

As to the first pont, you would be surprised how long people can keep going. Especially when they have someone to support them as in this episode. I've seen it first hand. It's also really easy for somebody with that support to coast on their reputation and to still be able to sound like their old selves when they are discussing generalities. Especially if you are talking to them early in the day since those with dementia often are more coherent then- there was even a pretty good episode that talked about this phenomena.

As far as the second issue you bring up is concerned I'm not sure he is questioning her abilities, but the fact that she has not been elected or appointed to make those decisions. I know my managers respect my opinions and judgement, but they (and their supervisors) still wouldn't want me to be making decisions for them - there is a difference between taking my advice and me making those decisions without competent oversight.

Edited June 12, 2020 by wknt3
fix typos

[GHScorpiosRule]

“Subterranean Homeboy Blues”

I just love Ben’s exasperated and sarcastic question to Max after Max suddenly changed his mind and doesn’t care that Cindy Dibeeeeasiiiii shot the two guys in a crowded train:

”Do you have any other personal views on this subject you’d like to air before we walk into court and Ms. Shambala Green hands us our ASSES on a Platter?”

Me: 😆😆😆😆

Shambala!!!!! One of the BEST recurring defense attorneys to appear on the show!!

 

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

“Subterranean Homeboy Blues”

I just love Ben’s exasperated and sarcastic question to Max after Max suddenly changed his mind and doesn’t care that Cindy Dibeeeeasiiiii shot the two guys in a crowded train:

”Do you have any other personal views on this subject you’d like to air before we walk into court and Ms. Shambala Green hands us our ASSES on a Platter?”

Me: 😆😆😆😆

Shambala!!!!! One of the BEST recurring defense attorneys to appear on the show!!

 

Shambala was great I agree, she was one of my favorite defense attorneys to appear on L&O. 

Season 1 was interesting, it was good and had a lot of interesting episodes, but they were still trying to figure out the formula and so some of it was shaky, I didn’t like the long openings and how it was sometimes hard to follow what leads the detectives were tracking down, as well as how there were more filler scenes. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Shambala was great I agree, she was one of my favorite defense attorneys to appear on L&O. 

Season 1 was interesting, it was good and had a lot of interesting episodes, but they were still trying to figure out the formula and so some of it was shaky, I didn’t like the long openings and how it was sometimes hard to follow what leads the detectives were tracking down, as well as how there were more filler scenes. 

Wolf had said in the first season dvd, I think it was, that he was looking to make this show like a docu-drama of sorts. It's why the look of it is also different. They used different film.

I never had a problem with what leads Mike and Max followed. It was all very linear to me. They would find something, dig deeper, and it would lead them where it did.

I especially liked how they found that asshole Jack Curry in "The Reaper's Helper".

I liked the look of the DA's office, specifically, Ben's from the earlier seasons, because it looked more real--how I would expect an office to look. Jack's started out that way, but then became more...upscale? Kind of like what you would find at a law firm or corporation.

But I'm glad they ditched the 35mm film that was used in the first season.

Another great smackdown by Ben at the end of "The Reaper's Helper" is at the end when he realizes that prosecuting Curry seemed like "revenge", something I disagreed with. Like that one guy, who kept after Ben for trying to put a dying man in jail. PUHLEAZE. Like people who have terminal diseases can't also be killers themselves or bad people. Curry having AIDS wasn't a mitigating factor for me. It's too bad it turned out that Bobby did indeed kill himself at the end. 

Curry: "What gave you the right to use me?"

Ben: "Unfortunately, you did. Not once, not twice, but three times."

Edited June 12, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[shapeshifter]

ION is re-running 20.3 "Great Satan" right now (allthingslawandorder.blogspot.com/2009/10/law-order-great-satan-recap-review.html).
What makes it better than average for me is Anthony Anderson's acting and some of the writing, like McCoy's "You want to walk on the moon, so the NYPD will give you a rocket ship!" (paraphrased by shapeshifter). The guest actor, Ben Youcef (as Ahmed) is no slouch either.

Personally funny moment for me: I just noticed on this viewing that the bag Bernard (as an undercover terrorist) uses to bring the explosives to the other terrorists is one I still have. It was one of a set of duffles for flying if you didn't want/need to use a wheely. The episode was shot in 2009. I'm pretty sure the duffles were from about 10 years earlier. This is the small one. I'm pretty sure my youngest daughter took it to a slumber party, LOL.

Edited June 13, 2020 by shapeshifter
Hilarious typo

[WendyCR72]

Another example of the franchise recycling the same story on more than one of the shows is on now on Sundance, "Kid Pro Quo" from Season 13. Criminal Intent had the same theme for its own Season 7 episode with the longest title in the franchise, "Please Note That We No Longer Accept Recommendations From Henry Kissinger".

With so many crimes out there, it always fascinated me how the franchise would recycle the same crimes.

[Xeliou66]

43 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Another example of the franchise recycling the same story on more than one of the shows is on now on Sundance, "Kid Pro Quo" from Season 13. Criminal Intent had the same theme for its own Season 7 episode with the longest title in the franchise, "Please Note That We No Longer Accept Recommendations From Henry Kissinger".

With so many crimes out there, it always fascinated me how the franchise would recycle the same crimes.

While both episodes dealt with elite private schools for children, the stories were quite different with different types of killers and motives. I’ve never thought the episodes were that similar. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

So rewatching “Kiss the Girls and Watch Them Die” and the one thing that never made sense to me was Ben asking Paul to get the woman Loomis had assaulted back in Boston to talk. When she changed her mind after refusing, and came to New York and told Ben what happened and what he did, Ben then says he couldn’t let her testify.

Huh? Then why insist to Paul to get her to talk and tell them what Loomis did? Ben’s not stupid. He already knew that past bad acts couldn’t be used.

“Happily Ever After” is sooo good, too. I love Ben’s who wants Manslaughter 1?

Then there’s “Everybody’s Favorite Bagman”, the unofficial pilot. Where Max is a lot thinner, has more hair and is just a detective! No Adam as DA. And Paul as being the longest assistant who lasted with Ben! Of course, it had been filmed in 1988, and none of the networks were interested at the time.  Until NBC changed its mind the second time around.

I  really love how Mike knocks out one of their earlier perps: by use of the aluminum trash can lid!😆😆😆😆 

And while I learned later how unhappy Dzundza was (because the show was moved to New York instead of staying in Vancouver), I thought all the cast had great chemistry.  

Edited June 13, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[shapeshifter]

11 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Then there’s “Everybody’s Favorite Bagman”, the unofficial pilot. Where Max is a lot thinner, has more hair and...

I saw most of this again today. Chris Noth, who was young and hot, uses a garbage can lid to take down a fleeing suspect. 
Decades later in Major Crimes, when Amy Sykes performs the same maneuver, was it an homage? 
Does this happen on any other shows?

[Hiyo]

Quote

Which seasons of L&O would you consider bad?

Not sure which ones I would consider bad, but I would say the high point for me would be seasons 3 to 10...

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So rewatching “Kiss the Girls and Watch Them Die” and the one thing that never made sense to me was Ben asking Paul to get the woman Loomis had assaulted back in Boston to talk. When she changed her mind after refusing, and came to New York and told Ben what happened and what he did, Ben then says he couldn’t let her testify.

Huh? Then why insist to Paul to get her to talk and tell them what Loomis did? Ben’s not stupid. He already knew that past bad acts couldn’t be used.

“Happily Ever After” is sooo good, too. I really love how Mike knocks out one of their earlier perps: by use of the aluminum trash can lid!😆😆😆😆

Then there’s “Everybody’s Favorite Bagman”, the unofficial pilot. Where Max is a lot thinner, has more hair and is just a detective! No Adam as DA. And Paul as being the longest assistant who lasted with Ben! Of course, it had been filmed in 1988, and none of the networks were interested at the time.  Until NBC changed its mind the second time around.

And while I learned later how unhappy Dzundza was (because the show was moved to New York instead of staying in Vancouver), I thought all the cast had great chemistry.  

I never cared for Greevey and thought he didn’t have much chemistry with anyone else, he was a pompous dick, other than him I love the cast of the early seasons. 

There were some inconsistencies and flaws in season 1 as I’ve pointed out and an example of that is what you mentioned in Kiss the Girls and Make Them Die, which was a good episode, I love Schiff’s deadpan “that would be nice” after Stone asked what he wanted, an eyewitness, it was classic Schiff. But yeah season 1 had some inconsistencies and flaws, one thing I’ve noticed in a couple of episodes is witnesses testifying out of order, with a prosecution witness, then a defense witness, then a prosecution witness again etc, this was quickly corrected but it is a flaw I’ve noticed, and there are other little holes as well in the earliest episodes. 

[balmz]

On 6/13/2020 at 1:58 AM, Xeliou66 said:

I never cared for Greevey and thought he didn’t have much chemistry with anyone else, he was a pompous dick, other than him I love the cast of the early seasons. 

There were some inconsistencies and flaws in season 1 as I’ve pointed out and an example of that is what you mentioned in Kiss the Girls and Make Them Die, which was a good episode, I love Schiff’s deadpan “that would be nice” after Stone asked what he wanted, an eyewitness, it was classic Schiff. But yeah season 1 had some inconsistencies and flaws, one thing I’ve noticed in a couple of episodes is witnesses testifying out of order, with a prosecution witness, then a defense witness, then a prosecution witness again etc, this was quickly corrected but it is a flaw I’ve noticed, and there are other little holes as well in the earliest episodes. 

think i read somewhere that the actor and chris didn't get along and also the actor thought the show would be more focused on him instead of an ensemble show

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just now, balmz said:

think i read somewhere that the actor and chris didn't get along and also the actor thought the show would be more focused on him instead of an ensemble show

Not quite. Yes, George and Chris knocked heads, but he was unhappy because the show was supposed to be shot in Vancouver, which was closer to his home in L.A., but once picked up, moved to New York. George also knocked heads with Michael Moriarty who played Ben Stone.

[wknt3]

2 hours ago, balmz said:

think i read somewhere that the actor and chris didn't get along and also the actor thought the show would be more focused on him instead of an ensemble show

 

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Not quite. Yes, George and Chris knocked heads, but he was unhappy because the show was supposed to be shot in Vancouver, which was closer to his home in L.A., but once picked up, moved to New York. George also knocked heads with Michael Moriarty who played Ben Stone.

I've read both from what I would consider reliable sources. Like a few other actors on the franchise he found the commute to NYC draining and he also thought as the lead of the police side there would be more focus on him.

And Dzundza knocked heads with just about everyone on the show. The whole cast, Dick Wolf, the writers, probably the grips and craft services too. I think it was Florek who said, talking about those early seasons, that Sorvino was hard to work with, but a delight off camera, and George was hard to work with and impossible to deal with behind the scenes too.

[stonehaven]

Just watched the infuriating Killerz.  I love it only for two reasons..that ending is chilling and the actress playing Jenny Brandt was fantastic. Completely dead eyes...and it should have seemed obvious to the mother when she's testifying about Jenny being "her best friend"..(which, come on., you're her mother and at that age, that's what she needs)..and the camera pans to Jenny and she has no expression. It goes to Skoda's observation of lack of empathy.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, wknt3 said:

 

I've read both from what I would consider reliable sources. Like a few other actors on the franchise he found the commute to NYC draining and he also thought as the lead of the police side there would be more focus on him.

And Dzundza knocked heads with just about everyone on the show. The whole cast, Dick Wolf, the writers, probably the grips and craft services too. I think it was Florek who said, talking about those early seasons, that Sorvino was hard to work with, but a delight off camera, and George was hard to work with and impossible to deal with behind the scenes too.

Regarding Sorvino—he sang opera and the cold weather was bad for his throat or something. That’s what Florek said in one of the dvd interviews. And so when Orbach joined, everyone let out a huuuuuge sigh of relief. Well, except Noth. He was a bit bitter that they didn’t bring in someone younger so Logan could be the senior detective. But he got over it soon enough.

The key thing is that Jerry Orbach was a NATIONAL TREASURE, and I’m grateful he was able to smooth things out. But I’m still bitter that Moriarty just had to go Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. On the other hand, I do also love Jack. Quite the conundrum.😄

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, stonehaven said:

Just watched the infuriating Killerz.  I love it only for two reasons..that ending is chilling and the actress playing Jenny Brandt was fantastic. Completely dead eyes...and it should have seemed obvious to the mother when she's testifying about Jenny being "her best friend"..(which, come on., you're her mother and at that age, that's what she needs)..and the camera pans to Jenny and she has no expression. It goes to Skoda's observation of lack of empathy.

Killerz was infuriating, Jenny was an ice cold sociopath, very chilling. It was pathetic on the judge’s part to let her off with a slap on the wrist, she murdered a child in cold blood and she deserved to be punished, and she was a danger to the public, the judge was pathetic to send her back to her “best friend” mom who was an unfit parent in the first place. Skoda was spot on in his analysis of Jenny, and he was right that Olivet was soft - Skoda was awesome, I liked Olivet pretty good usually but I was very annoyed with her in this episode, and I was annoyed with Jenny’s idiot “best friend” mom and the judge. I still love the episode though. 

Season 10 is arguably my favorite season, and it has my favorite cast lineup with Briscoe/Green/Van Buren/Carmichael/McCoy/Schiff. So many great episodes from that season as well. 

[Door County Cherry]

On 6/8/2020 at 6:40 PM, Xeliou66 said:

What do you mean by “Carrie” (I assume you mean Jamie Ross) trying to set up McCoy? 

Oh gosh you're right. I was thinking of Carey Lowell but I meant Jamie.  I don't remember the specific episode ('tho I suspect it was Under The Influence) but I remember her casually mentioning that one of her friends enjoyed her date with Jack but he didn't seem interested in pursuing it further.   

3 hours ago, wknt3 said:

And Dzundza knocked heads with just about everyone on the show. The whole cast, Dick Wolf, the writers, probably the grips and craft services too. I think it was Florek who said, talking about those early seasons, that Sorvino was hard to work with, but a delight off camera, and George was hard to work with and impossible to deal with behind the scenes too.

Interesting.  I knew that Noth clashed with the first two actors who played his partners but I didn't realize it wasn't just him.  

[Spartan Girl]

Say what you want about Greevey but he was great in "Poison Ivy." He smelled a rat with that cop who shot that black kid and claimed self defense, but actually just planted a gun on him after the fact. Considering current events, we need more cops like Greevey around to hold bad ones accountable!

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Say what you want about Greevey but he was great in "Poison Ivy." He smelled a rat with that cop who shot that black kid and claimed self defense, but actually just planted a gun on him after the fact. Considering current events, we need more cops like Greevey around to hold bad ones accountable!

Yeah. While Max could be a blowhard in some ways (generational thing), and judgy, he would come around eventually, because he was a cop. And his personal beliefs had no business influencing how he did his job, unlike others *cough*Rey*cough*. In "Subterranean Homeboy Blues" he was being the cop he was until his daughter got roughed up at school, and then learning the victim who died, wasn't so squeaky clean. But after Ben got in his face, he did his job; he went whining to Cragen about being let off the case in "Prisoner of Love" because the victim was into S&M. Then when he learned the victim was CATHOLIC, and would never have committed suicide? That was a punch to his assumptions. Though I did love Cragen's "wow" about how they only investigate crimes against "nice" people. And not enough love about "Poison Ivy" here from my corner. Or even in "Prescription for Death." We saw all sides, and nuance, in "Life Choice" even while I wanted to punch Max for trying to justify the anti-abortionists using bombs to kill people to make their point.

And when I stated the chemistry was great with everyone, even when Dzundza was on, I meant, with the actors. Max acting the blowhard didn't take away from the enjoyment; not everyone gets along all the time. And I never knew, watching this during the initial run, the reruns that A&E (remember that?) aired, that there were any conflicts with the actors behind the scenes. THAT'S being professional. Meaning, sucking it up and doing the job and not blabbing or whining about it to the media. Because back then, no Face Book, Twitter, Instagram, etc.

Edited June 15, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Say what you want about Greevey but he was great in "Poison Ivy." He smelled a rat with that cop who shot that black kid and claimed self defense, but actually just planted a gun on him after the fact. Considering current events, we need more cops like Greevey around to hold bad ones accountable!

I saw most of "Poison Ivy" today too. I wonder if it was one of the first episodes of its type on TV in that it dealt with both police corruption and (to some degree) racial stereotyping, although the "war on drugs" was the coda to the piece, and probably the bigger focus at the time. 

 

18 hours ago, wknt3 said:

I've read both from what I would consider reliable sources. Like a few other actors on the franchise he found the commute to NYC draining and he also thought as the lead of the police side there would be more focus on him.

And Dzundza knocked heads with just about everyone on the show. The whole cast, Dick Wolf, the writers, probably the grips and craft services too. I think it was Florek who said, talking about those early seasons, that Sorvino was hard to work with, but a delight off camera, and George was hard to work with and impossible to deal with behind the scenes too.

"Florek"? Heh. I know. You meant Noth. 😉

Anyway, I also read that Dzundza's wife was pregnant during the first season of cross-country commuting. 

Looking at Dzundza's lengthy IMDb creds (imdb.com/name/nm0001169), it seems he might have not wanted to do weekly shows for more than a season, but it's not really possible to armchair quarterback personalities and choices that way.

I just realized that Dzundza played "Jim," a human incarnation of Stargate bad guy Anubis in an "astral diner" alternate universe of sorts (stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Threads), an episode which is at least as deep as "Poison Ivy" seems now, watching it in light of current and past similar issues.