Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[MountaineerBro10]

Just curious; any of you guys watch L&O on Ion channel every weekday morning? I work Baylor shift (Fri-Sun, 7am-7:30pm) so I usually watch reruns during the week. Just for fun lol. 

[shapeshifter]

8 minutes ago, MountaineerBro10 said:

Just curious; any of you guys watch L&O on Ion channel every weekday morning? I work Baylor shift (Fri-Sun, 7am-7:30pm) so I usually watch reruns during the week. Just for fun lol. 

I used to work split shifts, and then part-time, and then I was "retired," so, yes, I usually catch at least one or two episodes on ION during weekday mornings, although not today. Right after the ION episodes are over, Bounce airs a few more, currently the earlier episodes.

When I was still living in my tiny apartment, I was more likely to "watch" them while multi-tasking, but currently I have a 2-story place with spotty signal, so sometimes I'm just "listening," which is interesting, because I hear stuff I didn't notice previously.

[Xeliou66]

Dazzled was just on, featuring one of the best Lennie one liners at the start, when the dead woman has fallen into the downstairs neighbors yard, and Green comments on how nice the yard is, Briscoe quips “no wonder the neighbors keep dropping in!!”. Hilarious line, his delivery and Green’s face afterwards were great.

The episode was otherwise mediocre, it had an interesting array of suspects but the way they zeroed in on the daughter as the killer was odd to me, nothing really pointed them in that direction they just suddenly thought her as the killer made sense, and it turned out they were right. It was just rather strange I thought. 

[Devonte Huntley]

I like the show, but I was irritated by the constant casting changes, particularly those who weren't on for more than two years, like why were you even on in the first place? Practically like every season some one was coming and going except for three occasions in Seasons 8, 19, and 20. The fact we had a casting change after Season 1 is atrocious. Something the spinoffs did better was keeping main regulars around for a bit, even though CI got funky with this too by it's fifth season particularly on the Team B side of things. 

I think the show should have been 90-minutes long or perhaps even two-hours long so we'd get more time with the police investigations and some more personal lives with the main characters. An issue why the personal lives couldn't be really featured was due to the limited time needed to be spent on the cases on both the "law" and "order" side, but with longer time lengths, this probably wouldn't have been an issue. It might have lead to shorter episodes a season, which I think was probably best because real life cases aren't handled so swiftly that the episodes make it out to be. Literally within days, a trial is going on after a suspect is caught when in real life, that can take a matter of months to arrange. 

And I'm not sure how many of you guys pay attention to the title cards, but they can be all over the place, hence why I feel they should have done shorter episode amounts (but at the price, making them longer), because you have episode plots overlapping being set during the same time period which becomes an issue due to hair styles and characters leaving and whatnot. Season 3 has such a jumbled timeline, I'm baffled. Paul Sorvino's character is shot in the eighth episode, but most of the events are set in April of 1992. However, the preceding episodes are set in the months AFTER this time period. I don't get why the season was set so far back from it's air time anyway. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Devonte Huntley

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 hours ago, Devonte Huntley said:

I like the show, but I was irritated by the constant casting changes, particularly those who weren't on for more than two years, like why were you even on in the first place? Practically like every season some one was coming and going except for three occasions in Seasons 8, 19, and 20. The fact we had a casting change after Season 1 is atrocious. Something the spinoffs did better was keeping main regulars around for a bit, even though CI got funky with this too by it's fifth season. 

Behind the scenes drama. George Dzundza left after the first season because he lived in California, and the show was supposed to be filmed in Vancouver. He signed on to do the show based on that pitch.  But the show moved to New York, and he was contracted.  He and Chris Noth butted heads, and things were very tense on the set. So Max was gone after a year. Things happen.

Paul Sorvino left because the cold New York air wasn't good for his throat as he also sang opera.

This show wasn't about the characters' lives, so much as it was about the murder and the trials. It wasn't a prime time soap. The show settled when they got Jerry Orbach. But then again, come season five, Noth and Wolf butted heads, so Noth/Mike was out. THAT pissed me off.

[Devonte Huntley]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Behind the scenes drama. George Dzundza left after the first season because he lived in California, and the show was supposed to be filmed in Vancouver. He signed on to do the show based on that pitch.  But the show moved to New York, and he was contracted.  He and Chris Noth butted heads, and things were very tense on the set. So Max was gone after a year. Things happen.

Paul Sorvino left because the cold New York air wasn't good for his throat as he also sang opera.

This show wasn't about the characters' lives, so much as it was about the murder and the trials. It wasn't a prime time soap. The show settled when they got Jerry Orbach. But then again, come season five, Noth and Wolf butted heads, so Noth/Mike was out. THAT pissed me off.

Oh trust me, I read an article on the reasons why many of them left and I find it to be silly because these decisions just happened so quickly after coming on. Like "Hey I'm gonna be on L&O" cut to two years later, "I WANT TO LEAVE TO PURSUE A FILM CAREER, START A FAMILY, YADA YADA" and it's pitiful because you grow to like these people and those who often stayed a short stint had the charisma and the appeal to truly out-run this show. 

I'm not too hostile to the ones who stayed on the longest and left (Orbach, Martin, Hill, etc.) or even somewhat a while not too short but not too long either (Bratt, Thompson, Noth, etc) and probably could have stayed on a while longer if not for a personal agenda or conflict. Bratt should have stayed on longer. Carey Lowell and Angie Harmon should have stayed on longer. They were both tough spunky ADAs that the show needed to foil Jack McCoy with. I don't mind Serena's stint as she stuck it out a good four years, though she rally could have left at the end of Season 15 instead in the middle. Don't really get the mid-season leaves like are they in that much of a hurry to leave instead of sticking around. Branch was perhaps the best DA the show has had, even better than Steven Hill's character, but he had to go run for president. But I'm not too prejudice on this decision because it allowed Jack to be promoted after being the main EADA for fourteen years. Seems like it was time for him to step on up. 

As far as hostile goes, I'm talking mostly the ones that only lasted a short like Dzunda and Sorvino. Dzunda knew what he was getting into when he read the premise. The show was not going to be about personal stuff and yet complains about it after filming many episodes. Sorvino should have known he was going to have to deal with cold weather and if he wants to be a singer so bad and do opera, why even devote your time full time to do a crime show? These men caused the show to start off rocky and contribute to what would be an ongoing curse for the show. People like Carey Lowell, Dianne Wiest, Milena Govich, Annie Parisse, and Dennis Farina, like why did you bother coming on to begin with? You didn't bother letting the fans truly grow to you and remain forgettable. Carey at least had spunk to be interesting in her short stint and Dennis brought a mafia style type of vibe to his character that was fresh and bossy. The other three were just dull and fell flat. In Milena's case, it was the problem of them trying too hard to make her "stand out" and just caused her to be annoying. 

I also notice whenever there's a stable set of people on either the LAW side or ORDER side, the other side is changing like crazy. Look at Seasons 1-3 for example. We had the nice consistent stability of Moriarty, Brooks, and Hill while the LAW side had the changes of Dzunda, Sorvino, and in comes Orbach all in that era. The LAW side had the stability team of Orbach, Bratt, and Merkerson for Seasons 6-9 and yet the ORDER side gave us the changes of Hennessey, Lowell, and in comes Harmon all in that era. The LAW side gave us the stability of Orbach, Martin, and Merkerson for Seasons 9-14 while the ORDER side saw the changes of Hill, Harmon, Wiest, and in comes Rohm and Thompson. The ORDER side gave us the stability of Roche, Garza, and Waterston for Seasons 18-20 while the LAW side had the changes of Martin and in comes Anderson. Not really much of a change here, but Merkerson would have been counted too had the show continued passed S20 as she was intended to depart by then. Everyone else would have stayed for S21. Anyone ever notice this? I just realized this last night and was WOAH.

So yeah, this show was jacked up and it's a shame it could never keep a stable cast together for the most part. You grew to like most of these people and many chickened out with the quickness or were just not fit for the show. And I also hate how some of these characters are gone and hardly given an explanation of why they left. LAZY WRITING.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Devonte Huntley

[GHScorpiosRule]

38 minutes ago, Devonte Huntley said:

Oh trust me, I read an article on the reasons why many of them left and I find it to be silly because these decisions just happened so quickly after coming on. Like "Hey I'm gonna be on L&O" cut to two years later, "I WANT TO LEAVE TO PURSUE A FILM CAREER, START A FAMILY, YADA YADA" and it's pitiful because you grow to like these people and those who often stayed a short stint had the charisma and the appeal to truly out-run this show. 

I'm not too hostile to the ones who stayed on the longest and left (Orbach, Martin, Hill, etc.) or even somewhat a while not too short but not too long either (Bratt, Thompson, Noth, etc) and probably could have stayed on a while longer if not for a personal agenda or conflict. Bratt should have stayed on longer. Carey Lowell and Angie Harmon should have stayed on longer. They were both tough spunky ADAs that the show needed to foil Jack McCoy with. I don't mind Serena's stint as she stuck it out a good four years, though she rally could have left at the end of Season 15 instead in the middle. Don't really get the mid-season leaves like are they in that much of a hurry to leave instead of sticking around. Branch was perhaps the best DA the show has had, even better than Steven Hill's character, but he had to go run for president. But I'm not too prejudice on this decision because it allowed Jack to be promoted after being the main EDA for fourteen years. Seems like it was time for him to step on up. 

As far as hostile goes, I'm talking mostly the ones that only lasted a short like Dzunda and Sorvino. Dzunda knew what he was getting into when he read the premise. The show was not going to be about personal stuff and yet complains about it after filming many episodes. Sorvino should have known he was going to have to deal with cold weather and if he wants to be a singer to bad and do opera, why even devote your time full time to do a crime show? These men caused the show to start off rocky and contribute to what would be an ongoing curse for the show. People like Carey Lowell, Dianne Wiest, Milena Govich, Annie Parisse, and Dennis Farina, like why did you bother coming on to begin with? You didn't bother letting the fans truly grow to you and remain forgettable. Carey at least had spunk to be interesting in her short stint and Dennis brought a mafia style type of vibe to his character that was fresh and bossy. The other three were just dull and fell flat. In Milena's case, it was the problem of them trying too hard to make her "stand out" and just caused her to be annoying. 

I also notice whenever there's a stable set of people on either the LAW side or ORDER side, the other side is changing like crazy. Look at Seasons 1-3 for example. We had the nice consistent stability of Moriarty, Brooks, and Hill while the LAW side had the changes of Dzunda, Sorvino, and in comes Orbach all in that era. The LAW side had the stability team of Orbach, Bratt, and Merkerson for Seasons 6-9 and yet the ORDER side gave us the changes of Hennessey, Lowell, and in comes Harmon all in that era. The LAW side gave us the stability of Orbach, Martin, and Merkerson for Seasons 9-14 while the ORDER side saw the changes of Hill, Harmon, Wiest, and in comes Rohm and Thompson. The ORDER side gave us the stability of Roche, Garza, and Waterston for Seasons 18-20 while the LAW side had the changes of Martin and in comes Anderson. Not really much of a change here, but Merkerson would have been counted too had the show continued passed S20 as she was intended to depart by then. Everyone else would have stayed for S21. Anyone ever notice this? I just realized this last night and was WOAH.

So yeah, this show was jacked up and it's a shame it could never keep a stable cast together for the most part. You grew to like most of these people and many chickened out with the quickness or were just not fit for the show. And I also hate how some of these characters are gone and hardly given an explanation of why they left. LAZY WRITING.

Quoting the whole thing, because you make good points, but I'm at work, so can't select and respond to each.

In the first season dvd interviews, Dzundza stated that he took the role because he'd be closer to his family and the show moved to New York at the last minute. But he was stuck and stayed for the initial year. Can't speak for Sorvino, because who knows? Maybe he didn't realize this would happen, as he's  a veteran.

As I've stated before up thread and pages, back and even when this show was a full forum (now in the Vault section of this site), Ben Stone is my favorite Executive DA. And if not for Moriarty going Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, I think he would have stayed for the entire run. Maybe. But I also love Jack--who in many ways, was Ben's opposite. But it's Ben for me.

As for Paul, well, the network/show was accused of having all men, so out Paul went, and the rotating of women ADAs began. I also think that Jamie should have stayed longer, as well as Abbey. I'm especially bitter about the turn they took with Paul when he returned for two? three? episodes.

[Devonte Huntley]

30 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Quoting the whole thing, because you make good points, but I'm at work, so can't select and respond to each.

In the first season dvd interviews, Dzundza stated that he took the role because he'd be closer to his family and the show moved to New York at the last minute. But he was stuck and stayed for the initial year. Can't speak for Sorvino, because who knows? Maybe he didn't realize this would happen, as he's  a veteran.

As I've stated before up thread and pages, back and even when this show was a full forum (now in the Vault section of this site), Ben Stone is my favorite Executive DA. And if not for Moriarty going Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, I think he would have stayed for the entire run. Maybe. But I also love Jack--who in many ways, was Ben's opposite. But it's Ben for me.

As for Paul, well, the network/show was accused of having all men, so out Paul went, and the rotating of women ADAs began. I also think that Jamie should have stayed longer, as well as Abbey. I'm especially bitter about the turn they took with Paul when he returned for two? three? episodes.

Interesting to hear the show was to be filmed in California. Since it's to be set in NYC, it makes sense to film it there. I'm surprised Dzunda stuck around after the move. I wouldn't have even bothered if I knew I'd probably have to leave at the end of the season. But apparently he was hard to work with which could probably contribute to him being killed off at the start of Season 2. Characters don't usually go out like that unless the actor did something rocky on set especially this early in the show and it's to the starring actor.

Yeah, Ben leaving is a shame. He was so calm and collective and by the book. Jack was just too uppity and always vindictive about putting people away and being so hell bent on the death penalty that he irritated me at times. When he became DA, that rose a couple octaves. Now he was in complete ass mode. I didn't mind him promoted, but I wished the writers mellowed him out. I so would have liked to see Ben again, especially on Chicago Justice when they had his son as the main character and then on SVU when Peter was to be a regular there. A shame we never got to see him again before they killed him off or even interact with his children. Yeah, he probably would have been on L&O the whole run and Adam Schiff even pokes at this saying how he figured Ben would be there long after he retired. Imagine if Ben came back as the DA in Season 18. That would have been awesome. 

I HATE what they did to Paul. I frankly hate when they do this to ADA characters that are by the book and loyal to the criminal justice system. But I'm a little in different because he wasn't all that strict with it that I could buy he could become a defense lawyer, but his reasoning of course had to be a race thing which I found to be dumb. Then there's Jamie Ross. When she came back as a defense attorney, she looked like she was uncomfortable even being one and the way she argued with Jack defending her client was just cringey like this move was a mistake. I give her a bit of pass since she was one before becoming an ADA, but since we never saw that era of her life it's still a bother. I didn't mind her becoming a judge though on Trial By Jury, that's probably how she should have returned on L&O. The same with Barba on SVU, a tough DA turned defense attorney which just seemed so wrong. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Devonte Huntley

[ifionlyknew]

1 hour ago, Devonte Huntley said:

People like Carey Lowell, Dianne Wiest, Milena Govich, Annie Parisse, and Dennis Farina, like why did you bother coming on to begin with?

Do we know if all these actors left voluntarily?  I do know Milena Govich's character was a big dud with viewers. 

The comings and goings of the cast never bothered me that much. While I liked some characters better than others Law & Order was never a show that was supposed to be about the characters.  It was always about the stories.  With that being said the show was never the same after Jerry Orbach left.  I'm re watching season 16 now and most of these episodes are just awful. 

[Door County Cherry]

A lot of the things you list as "bugs" are what I consider features of L&O.  

I like that they don't delve too much into the personal lives of characters.  That's something a viewer can get in pretty much any other drama TV show on TV.   I think that kind of storytelling dragged down some of the spinoffs and remain my least favorite part of SVU and CI.  

I was impressed with the fact that the show remained steady through cast changes.  The first few years were bumpy with the cast changes but they eventually landed on the perfect duos and combinations.  

The fact that they didn't focus on the personal lives of the characters allowed those cast changes to work.  

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

The fact that they didn't focus on the personal lives of the characters allowed those cast changes to work.  

Which is why I LOATHED that soap opera territory that the finale of season six jumped into with Claire and Jack. Blech.

It did a great job letting us know and learn the characters with throw away lines or one or two scenes each season--like how abusive Mike's mother was in "Indifference" and Lennie's history. We saw tidbits of Max's life, and Jack's. But I hated having to see Rey's family drama.

And Mike's childhood in "Bad Faith". It wasn't rammed down our throats or cause for ridiculous angst that would take away from the stories.

Edited June 2, 2021 by GHScorpiosRule

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, ifionlyknew said:

...With that being said the show was never the same after Jerry Orbach left.  I'm re watching season 16 now and most of these episodes are just awful. 

Hah! And I'm typing about season 16 now.😉

I just caught the last half of 16.9 "Criminal Law": 

• "As a convicted killer awaits retrial, key witnesses are being murdered, and Detectives Green and Fontana turn up a evidence that suggests that ADA Jack McCoy could be at risk" (lawandorder.fandom.com/wiki/Criminal_Law).

I tuned in as Annie Parisse as A.D.A. Alexandra Borgia was expressing to Jack that she was frightened, and I thought to myself: Oh. Is this the one where she ends up in a trunk and Jack remorsefully regrets encouraging her not to quit?
But, no, that's at the end of season 16.

Anyway, what I came here to type about is the end of 16.9 "Criminal Law" in which, on the steps of courthouse, after his killer father has been released, the "good" son of the evil murderer/lawyer pulls out a gun and kills his father, presumably thinking it is the only way to stop him from killing more people. 
Jack appears to be in shock, and Borgia asks if he's okay, to which Jack replies: "I thought he was aiming at me."
And that's the end.
But I'm thinking: Wait. This is the good son who, when they tracked him down, he was in his art studio, preparing for an exhibit --no trappings of wealth, and no overtly violent images in his work --just a guy who had found in his art a way to deal with his horrible childhood trauma.
And now he's going to prison for killing his killer father that the justice system was powerless to stop.
Even if he's "only" in prison for a few years, his career as an artist is likely over. 😞

 

***********************************************************

 

1 minute ago, Door County Cherry said:

A lot of the things you list as "bugs" are what I consider features of L&O.  

I like that they don't delve too much into the personal lives of characters.  That's something a viewer can get in pretty much any other drama TV show on TV.   I think that kind of storytelling dragged down some of the spinoffs and remain my least favorite part of SVU and CI.  

I was impressed with the fact that the show remained steady through cast changes.  The first few years were bumpy with the cast changes but they eventually landed on the perfect duos and combinations.  

The fact that they didn't focus on the personal lives of the characters allowed those cast changes to work. 

Thanks for putting my thoughts about the discussion upthread into words, @Door County Cherry! 😊
To update the old not-vegetarian, gender-old-fashioned saying
"One man's meat is another man's poison"
we can now say:
One person's feature is another person's bug.
although I think it sounds more tactful as:
One person's bug is another person's feature.

[ifionlyknew]

9 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I just caught the last half of 16.9 "Criminal Law": 

• "As a convicted killer awaits retrial, key witnesses are being murdered, and Detectives Green and Fontana turn up a evidence that suggests that ADA Jack McCoy could be at risk" (lawandorder.fandom.com/wiki/Criminal_Law).

I tuned in as Annie Parisse as A.D.A. Alexandra Borgia was expressing to Jack that she was frightened, and I thought to myself: Oh. Is this the one where she ends up in a trunk and Jack remorsefully regrets encouraging her not to quit?
But, no, that's at the end of season 16.

Anyway, what I came here to type about is the end of 16.9 "Criminal Law" in which, on the steps of courthouse, after his killer father has been released, the "good" son of the evil murderer/lawyer pulls out a gun and kills his father, presumably thinking it is the only way to stop him from killing more people. 
Jack appears to be in shock, and Borgia asks if he's okay, to which Jack replies: "I thought he was aiming at me."
And that's the end.
But I'm thinking: Wait. This is the good son who, when they tracked him down, he was in his art studio, preparing for an exhibit --no trappings of wealth, and no overtly violent images in his work --just a guy who had found in his art a way to deal with his horrible childhood trauma.
And now he's going to prison for killing his killer father that the justice system was powerless to stop.
Even if he's "only" in prison for a few years, his career as an artist is likely over. 😞

I watched that episode last night and the whole thing was just a big WTF.  When I saw Daniel Hugh Kelly's name I thought oh are they revisiting his character from one of his previous episodes. But nope.  And if they were going to use an old case of McCoy's why didn't they use an actual case that happened on a previous episode? I also wondered if this was the episode Borgia ended up dead.  And the artist son being the one to kill  his dad I mean sure OK if you want to wrap things up. 

The later seasons I have only seen twice. Once when they aired and once when I did a re watch about six years ago. Re watching them now I remember next to nothing about them.  They made so little an impression on me.  But the earlier seasons I can pretty much recite entire monologues.  

Edited June 2, 2021 by ifionlyknew

[Xeliou66]

I for one LOVED that L&O never delved too much into the personal lives of its characters, that’s part of what made it a great show, it was all about the cases - there are plenty of so called “crime procedurals” that are actually just night time soap operas, so I loved that on L&O we got very minimal personal drama, and they did a great job of still having compelling characters that the audience cared about without delving too much into their private lives.

It’s why I HATE the episode Aftershock, the season 6 finale, it was the one time L&O was a soap opera, there was no case and the personal drama was ridiculous and extremely melodramatic and soapy. Fortunately they bounced back quickly from that awful episode, and never tried anything like it again.

I was never bothered by the cast changes, they did a good job of coming up with compelling characters throughout the show’s run, and in real life people do come and go.

And I don’t agree that the show was awful after Orbach’s departure - no season of L&O is awful, and while there was a dip in quality and strength of episodes in seasons 15-17, particularly season 17 with Beauty Queen, the show was never awful, and it rebounded starting in season 18 and was strong again until its end. I really like seasons 18-20, I really enjoyed the Lupo/Bernard partnership and I liked seeing Jack as DA with Cutter and Rubirosa and I thought the entire cast had great chemistry together, and the cases were strong usually.

So those are my thoughts on some of the stuff that’s being discussed.

[Devonte Huntley]

3 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

A lot of the things you list as "bugs" are what I consider features of L&O.  

I like that they don't delve too much into the personal lives of characters.  That's something a viewer can get in pretty much any other drama TV show on TV.   I think that kind of storytelling dragged down some of the spinoffs and remain my least favorite part of SVU and CI.  

I was impressed with the fact that the show remained steady through cast changes.  The first few years were bumpy with the cast changes but they eventually landed on the perfect duos and combinations.  

The fact that they didn't focus on the personal lives of the characters allowed those cast changes to work.  

 

I'd like to see the character's personal lives because I want to know what they're about besides the ethics front they put on while working. It leads me to wonder should I truly follow or care about this person. And making the shows about the stories make the main characters seem like plot devices just to move the story and thus, they come off dull and stand-ins and fancy one-liner jokes isn't going to cut it for me. As I've already stated, the reason this was done was because of the limited time the show had to touch on both police investigations and court proceedings and then telling the personal stories of the victims and suspects, there's simply not much room to dwell into the personal lives of the characters. If the show was 90 minutes or two hours as I stated it should have been, the personal lives would certainly be touched on. 

I frankly loved the Aftershock episode because we got a break from the traditional format and after six years of plot-driven stories, it was time we got to know the main characters more than their work. I loved the three-part Season 10 arc where one case wasn't resolved in a single episode so that was a nice opportunity to touch on the personal issues with Rey Curtis and Jamie Ross. This is what I like, to see shows balance these things once in a while and given it's done only a few times throughout the entire run, the times it IS done shouldn't bother any of you. 

And why do you expect SVU and CI to be the same way? SVU especially was designed to be more personal because it wasn't the 50/50 half-law and half-order the original show was, so that gave more room for not only police stuff, but also dipping into it's main characters' lives. CI started off like L&O for it's five seasons which is shocking as like SVU wasn't half-law and half-order and could have provided us the time, but I'm glad post-Season 5 we started to branch especially when seeing these characters around so much you kind of want to know them deeper. 

And sure, the lack of personal lives may have allowed casting changes to work, but it also made those characters a waste when some of them didn't bring on the charm and appeal past their one dimensional portrayals and traits. This is quite a downfall and thus when personal territories are needed to give us something to hold onto and remember on these people. Not everyone could be a calm collective yet stern Ben Stone, a black activist like Paul Robinette, your sassy no-nonsense mother hen figure like Anita Van Buren, a wise-cracking Lennie Briscoe, a laid black but stern token black guy Ed Green, and even your stuck-up, criminal hating, informative action and political uppity sword handle like Jack McCoy. And if personal stories could be delivered more, many of the short-stinted actors who had potential to truly last on this show, probably would have stayed longer.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Devonte Huntley

[GHScorpiosRule]

Dick Wolf meant for this show, the mothership, to be a sort of a hybrid of a documentary/drama. You can see that in the type of film they used in the first season. It's not as "shiny" in terms of the look. It's grainy and there's a lot of camera movement.

If you were looking for a show that delved into the personal lives of the characters, then this show wasn't for you. It was presented as a Ripped from the Headlines--where the first half was the cops doing the investigating and the second half, the trial.

Hell, I don't even know why Criminal Intent was part of this franchise as there was NO ORDER in it. Maybe, like two or three episodes. SVU just became unwatchable and self-indulgent after the first five or six seasons.

And this was on network television--No way would it have ever been aired as 90 minute episodes. Columbo did that, but they had it as 2-3 movies a year as one season.

 

[Door County Cherry]

4 hours ago, Devonte Huntley said:

I'd like to see the character's personal lives because I want to know what they're about besides the ethics front they put on while working.

I think the show did show us who the characters were with nuance and subtlety.  They were like coworkers in that we know some of what they were about but not their whole stories. 

The fact that they didn't show their personal lives wasn't because of a time constraint, it was very purposeful and by design.

From what I understand about the mothership, actors would sometimes leave because they wanted to try new things but they also left over money.  No one was getting Hargitay money on L&O.  

[Devonte Huntley]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Dick Wolf meant for this show, the mothership, to be a sort of a hybrid of a documentary/drama. You can see that in the type of film they used in the first season. It's not as "shiny" in terms of the look. It's grainy and there's a lot of camera movement.

If you were looking for a show that delved into the personal lives of the characters, then this show wasn't for you. It was presented as a Ripped from the Headlines--where the first half was the cops doing the investigating and the second half, the trial.

Hell, I don't even know why Criminal Intent was part of this franchise as there was NO ORDER in it. Maybe, like two or three episodes. SVU just became unwatchable and self-indulgent after the first five or six seasons.

And this was on network television--No way would it have ever been aired as 90 minute episodes. Columbo did that, but they had it as 2-3 movies a year as one season.

 

I'm well aware of the look of the show in the first season. I frankly took it as well it's the 1990s and it's something new and still experimenting with things. I didn't really care for how it was presenting itself to me. I actually liked the grainy and shaky bits because it made the show seem more realer. 

I'm not itching for tons of personal things, but something more than what we got so we're just not watching card board cut out characters all the time. The show might as well be Crime & Defense where we focus on the criminals committing the crimes and trying to get away and then they're in court being defended by their lawyer and it's from their perspective. We get far invested in their personal drama. The L&O characters come off as simple added plot devices.

The L&O franchise wasn't required to have every show be about the LAW side and the ORDER side. If that's the case, then we might as well just settle with the original L&O. They were meant to be different in terms of style or format so that meant either more police investigation with occasional court proceedings or even vice versa if the show is to be more trial-based. They are associated simply by name and taking place in the same universe/area. I would say Trial By Jury reflects the more trial-based aspect, but that show is cleverly a rehash of L&O because while the show is set primary in the D.A.'s Office, the first half consist of the D.A. Investigators gathering evidence for the ADAs and the trials don't happen until the second half. The show should have been strictly on the trial from beginning to end especially with the opening narration ending with "This is one of those trials" and yet it's still 20-30 minutes before we actually see one. 

As far as the 90 minute thing goes, it could have worked out fine with shorter episodes. Instead of the usual 22-25, we have about 13-15 and instead of the show airing weekly, it could air every two weeks. I think that is reasonable design and scheduling.

4 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I think the show did show us who the characters were with nuance and subtlety.  They were like coworkers in that we know some of what they were about but not their whole stories. 

The fact that they didn't show their personal lives wasn't because of a time constraint, it was very purposeful and by design.

From what I understand about the mothership, actors would sometimes leave because they wanted to try new things but they also left over money.  No one was getting Hargitay money on L&O.  

I don't need to know their WHOLE stories, but sort of like how the Chicago shows handle it. They balance the personal stuff well than like L&O which is strictly about the cases and all we get are a couple lines here and there every episode about a main character's life. Then this info gets forgotten. Too much of one thing can be bad as that includes just not touching on personal stuff at all apart from brief references which are hit and misses. L&O could have used better balance if it was able to. As I said, 90 minutes episodes could have done it wonders.

I think it's ridiculous for anyone to be making the amount of money Mariska is for a show that is not even that hard to do. She should be getting like ten times LESS than what she is now. Almost as ridiculous as the cast of Big Bang Theory wanting a million dollars an episode, for a half-hour sitcom? PUH-LEEEEEEASE. You people aren't doing anything out of this world spectacular to warrant that much money. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Devonte Huntley

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, Devonte Huntley said:

I don't need to know their WHOLE stories, but sort of like how the Chicago shows handle it.

I understand what you're looking for; it's just that almost every other show out there offers that.  This is what makes L&O unique.  The focus is on the cases and the people who are a part of the case.  

1 hour ago, Devonte Huntley said:

You people aren't doing anything out of this world spectacular to warrant that much money. 

The actors who are getting that amount of money are part of shows that earn their production companies a lot of money.  That's why they get the big bucks.  

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 5/21/2021 at 6:52 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I watched The Fire This Time today, good episode, but Nora really drove me nuts in this one, she was so overly sympathetic to the defendants who set the fire. She was so goddamn soft for a DA, her character looked so weak. Nora could’ve been an interesting character but all too often she just lacked authority and came across as extraordinarily soft. The way she kept on making excuses for these perps who burned down a building and killed a woman inside was pathetic IMO. I was glad McCoy stood his ground and put them away for murder, while Nora just stood on the sidelines whining.

Aside from Nora, the episode was really good, the investigation into the crime was very good and the case was compelling. But Nora’s whining dragged the show down, between Nora and Serena, well those characters were very soft to be prosecutors and having them on together in season 12 often made the legal side more dull.

I always wondered how Nora got the job. She was an academic, since I think she was teaching at a university before she was appointed once Adam left, but right off the top of my head I can't even remember if she was an attorney or not. She certainly didn't seem to have much practical experience with prosecuting cases, since she acted shocked when Jack points out in Teenaged Wasteland that they really had to go after the death penalty for the kid who killed the delivery man. And she wasn't a political animal like Branch, who must have had connections since he also went on to run for office, I think. Even if the show wanted to do something different after Adam was no longer there, it seemed a little strange that they'd use a character who had no actual experience.

[Xeliou66]

22 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I always wondered how Nora got the job. She was an academic, since I think she was teaching at a university before she was appointed once Adam left, but right off the top of my head I can't even remember if she was an attorney or not. She certainly didn't seem to have much practical experience with prosecuting cases, since she acted shocked when Jack points out in Teenaged Wasteland that they really had to go after the death penalty for the kid who killed the delivery man. And she wasn't a political animal like Branch, who must have had connections since he also went on to run for office, I think. Even if the show wanted to do something different after Adam was no longer there, it seemed a little strange that they'd use a character who had no actual experience.

Nora had been a prosecutor in the past, remember in her first episode it was revealed she worked with Rudy Giuliani in the past prosecuting cases, so she did have prosecutorial experience, she was a prosecutor before she became a professor. And she was appointed to the position, she didn’t run for office at any point.

Nora could’ve been a lot more interesting than she was - she had a couple of episodes where she was interesting - Teenage Wasteland and Bronx Cheer come to mind. But for the most part she was dull, weak, lacked authority and was way too soft for a DA.

[wknt3]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Nora had been a prosecutor in the past, remember in her first episode it was revealed she worked with Rudy Giuliani in the past prosecuting cases, so she did have prosecutorial experience, she was a prosecutor before she became a professor. And she was appointed to the position, she didn’t run for office at any point.

Nora could’ve been a lot more interesting than she was - she had a couple of episodes where she was interesting - Teenage Wasteland and Bronx Cheer come to mind. But for the most part she was dull, weak, lacked authority and was way too soft for a DA.

Yeah there was lots of potential there that was never really used. TPTB seemed to realize that the audience would never embrace anyone who replaced Adam. So they found a NYC prestige actor who helped get the network off their back about gender balance and never bothered to develop or explore the character. And since she was a professor they could just summarize legal ethics textbooks and articles instead of having to do any of the actual hard work of writing like taking those issues and exploring them through the actions of character's with different POVs. After all there was no interest in her succeeding so as long as it didn't get them cancelled they could just coast. Off the top of my head interesting threads that popped up here and there, but were never explored was her interest in using the power of prosecution against the wealthy and powerful rather than the poor and her background as part of NYC's legal elite. I would have loved to see her pushing Jack to "make the deal" but as part of working up the chain. Or forcing Jack to be the pragmatic one concerned about the consequences beyond just winning the case of the moment. It was a shame, especially in season 12 when they had an unintentional weak link on the legal side and really could have used taking advantage of Wiest's talents and the character's potential.

[shapeshifter]

ION is airing Season 17 these days.
Today I saw 17.8 "Release" in which "A co-ed is accused of murdering a man inside a 'Babes Being Bad' tour bus. But was she raped by the owner of the company, and is he ultimately responsible for the murder?" 

I was struck by how McCoy's angry response to the accused (a wealthy "playboy") was such a stirring expression of the MeToo Movement, even though the movement didn't take off until 2017, and this episode aired in 2006 --although, Turana Burke did begin the MeToo Movement in 2006 (washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/10/19/the-woman-behind-me-too-knew-the-power-of-the-phrase-when-she-created-it-10-years-ago/) but I don't know if any of the writers of this episode could have known about her work then.

Anyway, the perp's denials and McCoy's MeToo-evocative diatribe:

• [Rich rapist] You know, girls have been getting drunk and taking their clothes off since forever. I'm just the first guy smart enough to film it. That doesn't make me a killer!
   
• [McCoy] No, raping Nicole Flynn does!

• [Rich rapist] She signed a consent form! Got naked and jumped into bed with me! How in God's name does that make me a murderer?

• [McCoy] You've had quite a run for someone so young. Exploiting unsuspecting college kids. Taking advantage of their youth, their innocence, their vulnerability. And if they change their minds, to hell with them!
  "A release is a release. Like it or not, the world is going to see you naked. Unless you pay me or screw me."
  That's a lot of heartache. A lot of ruined lives.* And no one could touch you. But now, you are directly responsible for a death! And I intend to make you pay for that!

*at this point, McCoy has had as a witness a mother of a daughter who committed suicide after being raped by the perp and being told by him that she had signed up for it, and McCoy is trying to offer him a deal, but he still doesn't see himself as the jury now does.

And then, after he is convicted and being led away to jail and prison, he ironically cries out just as his victims did, really driving home the point:

• [Rich rapist] You can't do this to me, all right?  I'm not a murderer, I didn't hurt anyone! Wait! Please, I beg you, please don't send me to jail! (SOBBING) Please! Please, I beg you! No! Please!

Edited June 8, 2021 by shapeshifter

[shapeshifter]

Also airing on ION today was a very different case, 17.11  "Remains of the Day" involving "a potential plot to illegally harvest dead body parts for medical transplants."

In the end the Doctor is acquitted of murder after his harvesting of body parts from corpses to give to indigent patients at his free clinic resulted in a death due to cancer cells being present in some transplants, with other patients also affected. The Doctor's sincerity and presentation of his position on the stand cause the jury to acquit him, and, at the end, McCoy seems to agree.

A really interesting coincidence(?) that I noticed today is that the actor playing the doctor in this episode looks remarkably like the doctor in episode 6.5 of The Closer, "Heart Attack," in which the doctor is also harvesting organs illegally for use at his free clinic:

They look so much alike to me, that I had to double check, LOL.
I wonder if The Closer people were inspired by the original L&O episode, and at first tried to get the same actor or something.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by shapeshifter

[ifionlyknew]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Also airing on ION today was a very different case, 17.11  "Remains of the Day" involving "a potential plot to illegally harvest dead body parts for medical transplants."

I don't remember most of the episodes from the later seasons but that particular episode I remember. I also remember the episode that was about pants and a dry cleaner.

[Xeliou66]

29 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

I don't remember most of the episodes from the later seasons but that particular episode I remember. I also remember the episode that was about pants and a dry cleaner.

That was season 18 episode 4 Bottomless. That one also involved Van Buren’s old boss who was now working for the supermarket company, pretty good episode but predictable how Van Buren’s old boss interfered with the case and all.

[Xeliou66]

In God We Trust was just on, good episode, one of season 15’s best, but my god I hate Borgia in this one - the way she was basically saying religion should influence the law and that being a Christian should give someone special treatment really pissed me off. She was awful in this episode. The guy committed a hate murder, and regardless of whether he had become a different person or not, and I think Elwin was remorseful and different, he still deserved to be locked up for a long time for the murder.

Jack was great in this episode, he was right in saying that the motion to dismiss had no merits and I really liked his final argument in court. I also loved his response when Borgia talked about how forgiveness was a Christian ideal, and McCoy replied “and if you don’t believe in Christ you just have to do your time”. Branch also made good points about how there are other reasons besides rehabilitation to put people away. But I hated Borgia, and I hated the defense attorney as well.

The case at the start of the episode with the arson was good as well, and that guy was pure evil, he apparently hated the mother of his child so much he tried to burn her to death, I hope he was put away for life for arson/murder of the fireman.

I’ve said before I’m not a big Fontana fan and Fontana/Falco is hard to watch because both characters were so abrasive, In God We Trust is the only Fontana/Falco episode I like, the case/cases were good enough to overcome my dislike of Fontana/Falco.

[Scarlett45]

I’m watching “Slave” from season 6 and it’s breaking my heart.

Plot: woman is accidentally shot while sleeping from a neighbor’s roof. Turns out the stray bullet was because a drug dealer named Ross requested the 12yrs old that was sold to him by his addict mom, murder another young boy who was working for him. The boy didn’t want to kill his friend and missed in purpose. 
 

Not only did that poor woman lose her life because of a random stray bullet, but a woman SOLD her son to be abused by that scum bag dealer, and the boy didn’t want to murder his friend. The woman never even showed up to juvenile court to advocate for her son. 
 

Im glad the drug dealer Ross was put away, and I think juvenile court was appropriate- I don’t think that young man was a danger to anyone outside of those circumstances; and even knowing how his mother sold him, and that he had to obey Ross -he didn’t want to kill his friend. Probably best he got away from his mother before his moral center was completely corrupted or he turned 18 and juvenile court wasn’t an option any more. 

[Xeliou66]

Yes Slave was a very sad episode - the mom of the shooter was a true piece of garbage, she didn’t give a fuck about her son and sold him to the dealer.

That was the episode where Curtis let the dad slap his son in the interrogation room, and Van Buren berated him for it. I was glad Van Buren chewed his self righteous ass out, Curtis believed that his own morals came above everything else, and I loved seeing Van Buren put him in his place. 

[wanderingstar]

Ned Beatty, who (among many other things, obviously), had a memorable appearance in the season 19 episode "Zero," passed away today.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Gillian Rosh

[Xeliou66]

30 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Ned Beatty, who (among many other things, obviously), had a memorable appearance in the season 19 episode "Zero," passed away today.

RIP. He was a great actor - he was great as Munch’s partner Bolander on Homicide for that shows first few seasons. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Xeliou66

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

That was the episode where Curtis let the dad slap his son in the interrogation room, and Van Buren berated him for it. I was glad Van Buren chewed his self righteous ass out, Curtis believed that his own morals came above everything else, and I loved seeing Van Buren put him in his place. 

Yes I loved it when Van Buren laid down the law with Curtis. 

[Xeliou66]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes I loved it when Van Buren laid down the law with Curtis. 

Van Buren was awesome - I loved the way she ran the squad, she was firm and fair, overall she supported her detectives but she wasn’t afraid to lay down the law if they stepped out of line. She’s one of my favorites.

On the other hand, I was not a fan of Rey Curtis, he was sanctimonious and self righteous and frequently behaved like an ass. I think they wanted someone different from Logan, which they got, but Curtis was frequently unpleasant. 

[shapeshifter]

11 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Van Buren was awesome - I loved the way she ran the squad, she was firm and fair, overall she supported her detectives but she wasn’t afraid to lay down the law if they stepped out of line. She’s one of my favorites.

S. Epatha Merkerson as Lieutenant Van Buren was probably the quintessential chief of a TV police squads forever and ever, amen. The casting, acting, directing, and writing are also an example of "when they made her, they threw away the mold."

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by shapeshifter
Lieutenant, not Chief

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

S. Epatha Merkerson as Chief Van Buren was probably the quintessential chief of a TV police squads forever and ever, amen. The casting, acting, directing, and writing are also an example of "when they made her, they threw away the mold."

Well, she was a lieutenant, not chief, but the rest of your post is pretty spot on!

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Well, she was a lieutenant, not chief, but the rest of your post is pretty spot on!

Thanks. I fixed it.
I now recall the detectives referring to her as "Loo."
So who do I recall Detective Greene addressing as "Chief"?

*********************

To whom it may concern: ION has removed OG L&O from their summer lineup. 
 

Edited June 14, 2021 by shapeshifter

[wknt3]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Thanks. I fixed it.
I now recall the detectives referring to her as "Loo."
So who do I recall Detective Greene addressing as "Chief"?

Probably one of the "Chiefs of D(etective)s" that popped up from time to time like in "Everybody Loves Raimondo's". Or maybe Dan Lauria's character who was a borough commander or something like that, but was a Deputy Chief?

[Chyromaniac]

Funnily enough, I just referenced “slave” elsewhere on this site.  All through In the Heights, I kept thinking of the stakeout where Lenny quotes Langston Hughes to Anita - “it works with girls from Washington Heights.”

[Xeliou66]

18 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

Funnily enough, I just referenced “slave” elsewhere on this site.  All through In the Heights, I kept thinking of the stakeout where Lenny quotes Langston Hughes to Anita - “it works with girls from Washington Heights.”

I loved that interaction between Briscoe and Van Buren from Slave.

[Chyromaniac]

“Well, at least you got to dodge the question by calling me an idiot.”

”Yeah, that helped.”

I know he isn’t super popular here - but I love the ending of “Double Down,” and we wouldn’t have got it if Rey wasn’t such a massive tight@$$...

[Xeliou66]

14 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

“Well, at least you got to dodge the question by calling me an idiot.”

”Yeah, that helped.”

I know he isn’t super popular here - but I love the ending of “Double Down,” and we wouldn’t have got it if Rey wasn’t such a massive tight@$$...

I liked McCoy telling the defense attorney the murderer could rot in prison until hell freezes over, that was great. I thought it was clever and quick thinking by McCoy to shut the detectives up in court when the defendant was making his plea.

I was a bit annoyed with the detectives in that one, it seemed like they were letting their emotions about the guy killing a cop get in the way of the fact that they could have a living hostage. Of course it turns out the guy was playing them, but I was a bit annoyed with them.

This episode was the one time we saw Jack’s apartment. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Xeliou66

[Door County Cherry]

I have a confession to make:

I normally knock Season 7 because of the hard turn into the personal lives of the characters--well hard for L&O but not for most other shows.

But there was a run of Season 7 episodes on TV today and I have to rethink my assessment.  I may not like the dive into the personal lives but there are some truly fun cases in this season.  A few make up my favorite episodes of the series. 

Whenever Legacy is on, I will always watch it. Such great details in that one with a hitman who hides his gun in his dog's poop bag, seeing Cliff's mom from Cheers as a vengeful grandma and the final twist at the end that there was no affair from the new wife's perspective.  So good.

I also love the final scene in Double Blind.  There were so many twists and turns in Menace.  

The mother and daughter confrontation in Matrimony is a trip. 

[WendyCR72]

59 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

The mother and daughter confrontation in Matrimony is a trip. 

Yeah, I saw that that re-aired yesterday. The actress playing the gold-digging mother, Anna Holbrook, I knew mainly from the (now-defunct) soap, Another World, but she was good there. It was her third or so appearance on the Mothership that I know of. I'm bad with Mothership titles, but she also played the mother who kidnapped her daughter, accusing her ex-husband of molesting said daughter.

And she was also in the episode where a young Sarah Paulson was sleeping with her creepy stepdad as another woman said stepdad was screwing.

But then, the whole franchise seemed to like casting Broadway and/or New York soap actors, so she was in good company.

[Door County Cherry]

40 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

And she was also in the episode where a young Sarah Paulson was sleeping with her creepy stepdad as another woman said stepdad was screwing.

I know her from AW too.  I forgot about the kidnapping ep but I was thinking about the Paulson one.  Another great ending.

[ifionlyknew]

7 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I normally knock Season 7 because of the hard turn into the personal lives of the characters--well hard for L&O but not for most other shows.

Season 7 is one of my favorite seasons. It introduced Jamie Ross and there seemed to be more humor in the scripts. There was ID, the one with the woman posing as her sister.  Deadbeat with the ex husband getting whacked.  Menace with the woman jumping off the bridge. And of course the three parter.  This season had a lot episodes where you thought they were going to zig but they zagged.

[Xeliou66]

I love season 7 - I think it has a lot of great episodes, and I don’t think it had a lot of personal stuff, it was season 8 that had a few personal subplots, the only real personal subplot of season 7 was the stuff with Curtis and his wife that was talked about on occasion.

Season 7 had a ton of great episodes and I saw several good ones from it yesterday -

I love Menace, a lot of good twists and turns in it, and the son of the factory owner who orchestrated the whole thing was just downright evil and was willing to frame his dad for the crimes. 

Matrimony is an entertaining episode as well with a lot of interesting suspects, I liked seeing defense attorney Arthur Gold in it and I liked the trial scenes and the twist that the daughter was innocent and the mom was guilty. And it always makes me laugh how the daughter casually calls the detectives by their first names when they paid her a visit at the spa, calling them “Leonard” and “Rey”.

[stonehaven]

I adore Legacy. I watch that every time it comes on. The episode had some great moments but Shiff's last line about "It's gotta be tough finding out you married your stalker" always gets me.

[Xeliou66]

33 minutes ago, stonehaven said:

I adore Legacy. I watch that every time it comes on. The episode had some great moments but Shiff's last line about "It's gotta be tough finding out you married your stalker" always gets me.

Legacy is another stellar season 7 episode - some real good detective work to piece together who hired the hitman and solving the case and I liked the twist of the witness with the dog at the start turning out to be the hitman, and then the case against the victim of the shooting for the murder years earlier was interesting as well, with the wife finally realizing her current husband killed her first husband so he could be with her. Schiff’s final line was great I agree. 

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, stonehaven said:

I adore Legacy. I watch that every time it comes on. The episode had some great moments but Shiff's last line about "It's gotta be tough finding out you married your stalker" always gets me.

 

6 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Legacy is another stellar season 7 episode - some real good detective work to piece together who hired the hitman and solving the case and I liked the twist of the witness with the dog at the start turning out to be the hitman, and then the case against the victim of the shooting for the murder years earlier was interesting as well, with the wife finally realizing her current husband killed her first husband so he could be with her. Schiff’s final line was great I agree. 

I also liked that the wife wasn't part of it. When I first watched it I kept expecting at some point to find out she was having an affair. Nope, she never did. Her reaction when finding out he had no reason to be in town when he ran into her in Pennsylvania. I love Lennie pretending to be a hitman. He was hilarious. "No more frozen treats" and not afraid of policemen. I love Frances Sternhagen.

[Xeliou66]

Watching season 12 today - good episodes, but Nora is so soft and has such a dull personality that she drags down the show. She just wasn’t a very good fit for the DA role. In The Fire This Time, she was so soft when talking about the perps who burned down the building and burned a woman to death, and then in Prejudice, she seemed to think that the defense of racism as a mental disorder had some merit. She just didn’t have enough backbone to be a DA. I know some L&O fans can’t stand Arthur but I thought Arthur brought authority, charisma and personality back to the DA role after 2 years of Nora.

McCoy was awesome in Prejudice, fiery and passionate, he despised racism/hate crimes and it showed. I liked how Jack referenced the season 5 episode Rage which was the case where a black defendant used the “black rage” defense for murder, good continuity. And an interesting note - Prejudice is the first episode that mentions the events of 9/11, it’s mentioned a couple of times in the episode.