Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[BkWurm1]

I'm not sure why it matters if she rode a motorcycle or not. Oliver and Sara managed to ride motorcycles with actual gloves on. The point is that she shouldn't have fingerless gloves for obvious reasons, regardless of why she'd ever need them. It's stupid.

My only point about the lack of a motorcycle is there was no in show reason for her to have put on the fingerless "motorcycle" gloves in the first place let alone just keep wearing them until she suddenly in the second season does drive a motorcycle.  IF there had at least been a motorcycle I could at least understand what would have prompted Laurel to put them on in the first place even though for finger print reasons they are ridiculous.  But all we have for a reason is because someone thought it looked cool and that's not good enough for me.   

[Primal Slayer]

I'm not sure why it matters if she rode a motorcycle or not. Oliver and Sara managed to ride motorcycles with actual gloves on. The point is that she shouldn't have fingerless gloves for obvious reasons, regardless of why she'd ever need them. It's stupid.

No is really disputing that. But it is the least of my worries when looking at her costume overall.

[apinknightmare]

My only point about the lack of a motorcycle is there was no in show reason for her to have put on the fingerless "motorcycle" gloves in the first place let alone just keep wearing them until she suddenly in the second season does drive a motorcycle.  

 

Maybe they were something she had lying around her house that she used at the gym when she was training with Ted? I mean, she also had the buckles outfit lying around somewhere for...whatever reason. Although it seems pretty pointless to put any kind of gloves on in the first place, since the main draw to wear them (IMO) would be to make sure you weren't a dumbass leaving your fingerprints everywhere while you were out breaking the freaking law. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[manbearpig]

I don't notice the finger-less gloves while watching the show, but they are undoubtedly awful as an idea. Next season they just need to come up with some nonsense about Star-Labs making a transparent layer for the gloves that prevent her prints from spreading, or even just pretend they were there all along like Shado's surprise sister or the stupidity about that Ra's Al Ghul prophecy the writers tried to use to explain why Oliver was next in line or whatever. 

 

Or, y'know, just get her new gloves. At least Diggle's helmet is making every other costume's defects look less problematic.

[BkWurm1]

Or, y'know, just get her new gloves. At least Diggle's helmet is making every other costume's defects look less problematic.

 

Yeah, lol, there is that. 

 

Poor David Ramsey. 

[Angel12d]

At least Diggle's helmet is making every other costume's defects look less problematic.

 

Yeaaaah. That's exactly what I was thinking. Strange indeed.

[apinknightmare]

I don't notice the finger-less gloves while watching the show, but they are undoubtedly awful as an idea. 

 

I never noticed them in the show, thankfully. But they were the first thing I noticed when I looked at her costume when it was revealed.

[Sakura12]

Sara's costume gave more of a nod to the BC's costume since the fishnets were worn on her legs not her fingers. Comic BC's costume is also ridiculously impractical. So I'm glad they didn't go with it.  

 

Sara's costume is another reason why I don't understand why they felt they had to bring her in as BC (because even without being called that onscreen she was the Black Canary in every other sense). Their thought process in that still baffles me. In what universe does giving Sara a great and tragic backstory and giving her almost all the traits and skills of comic BC up to and including taking in a wayward orphan named Sin sound like a good idea for their Laurel character? Who was already struggling for a place in the show in the first season.

[Primal Slayer]

The only thing  really "impractical" about comic Canary is the fishnets but that is easily adapted to in an outfit, just giving the illusion of them works. 

 

But they would have to rework her Laurels costume a little if they decided to give her full on gloves since it is just way to much black and coverage, I still don't understand exactly how her outfit came together either, the jacket is suppose to be Saras but it became a full on jacket with full on sleeves. But I've come to accept it.

 

They should add some yellow like in this

https://31.media.tumblr.com/37b772bc501e0e8d23620031bf59144e/tumblr_inline_ni8vz9mtEG1rh6h62.png

 

Or adapt one of these

http://cdn1.sciencefiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/black-canary-statue-e1434426263726.jpg

 

http://41.media.tumblr.com/1fad0ff74633be2d27ab41dadb0c13b5/tumblr_neldsa56Ju1tg0rl6o1_500.png

Edited September 13, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[kismet]

The only thing  really "impractical" about comic Canary is the fishnets but that is easily adapted to in an outfit, just giving the illusion of them works. 

 

But they would have to rework her Laurels costume a little if they decided to give her full on gloves since it is just way to much black and coverage, I still don't understand exactly how her outfit came together either, the jacket is suppose to be Saras but it became a full on jacket with full on sleeves. But I've come to accept it.

 

They should add some yellow like in this

https://31.media.tumblr.com/37b772bc501e0e8d23620031bf59144e/tumblr_inline_ni8vz9mtEG1rh6h62.png

 

Or adapt one of these

http://cdn1.sciencefiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/black-canary-statue-e1434426263726.jpg

 

http://41.media.tumblr.com/1fad0ff74633be2d27ab41dadb0c13b5/tumblr_neldsa56Ju1tg0rl6o1_500.png

I like the bottom one. I do think the high neck works on LL. There are so many ways they could have made it better. They tried to combine real world with comic world and it just didn't work. It looks like a bad cosplay outfit.

[statsgirl]

The guy that designs the costumes for Maya is actually very talented, I can't recall if he designed black canary but I don't think he did. If he did I'm sure his plan was good and then got diluted in the process.

I thought Maya was the one who designs the costumes?

 

Maya Mani is credited on imdb with having designed the costumes for 45 episodes 2012-14, althought that's wrong because she's still the designer.  Tish Monaghan is the original designer, and Colleen Atwood is also down for doing some.

 

I liked the early Arrow costumes for the Arrow, the Canary and Nyssa but in the past season (Arsenal, Black Canary, ATOM,) they've been more silly than anything. Even the LoA costumes are so bulky that it's like SA was way overweight. How can they fight in those?  And this season we have bare arms for Oliver and that rdiculous helmet for Diggle.

 

I want to know who to blame.  I know KC made a number of changes to her original costume but it's not just the Black Canary costume that's the problem, it's the whole lot.

[apinknightmare]

I thought Maya was the one who designs the costumes?

 

There was a guy on a pod cast that I watched a while ago - I can't find the guy's name or the pod cast - but he was hired by DC to create concept drawings of a lot of the costumes on Arrow. The costume designer would then bring those concept drawings to life. I'm not sure if it still works like that, or if the same guy is still providing the concept drawings, but that's how it worked during S1 and S2 (the guy was interviewed toward the end of S2).

 

The person who is ultimately to blame is the one who okayed it. Anyone can provide input and throw something against the wall, but the person with final approval (Berlanti? IDK) is the one who lets it stick. 

[Primal Slayer]

 

I want to know who to blame.  I know KC made a number of changes to her original costume but it's not just the Black Canary costume that's the problem, it's the whole lot.

 

But Katies changes are so minor that they didn't affect the costume in general. All she did was get rid of the black eyes/add black lipstick/request mesh gloves. That was after the costume was already made. If it was more feminine in general, her minor changes probably would've changed.

[AyChihuahua]

Even the LoA costumes are so bulky that it's like SA was way overweight. How can they fight in those?

I swear, I thought I was the only one who thought that. I hated the LOA costumes, and especially Oliver in the LOA costume, for lots of symbolic reasons, but seriously, it made SA look fat. Even his legs looked fat. He most certainly is NOT FAT. It was so unflattering.

[Primal Slayer]

I think they overthink costumes at times.  The LoA should be a lot more sleeker and form fitting. I still don't know why Sara had a totally different outfit even though she was one of them, unless the costume came about after she decided to come back to Starling.

[Starfish35]

She picked the wig as well - there was an interview talking about that. Basically anything having to do with her face/head was her choices, as well as the mesh gloves and black nail polish. And that most recent interview sounds like she had at least some influence over which of the costume designs were picked, because she said "they" (I don't know who "they" is - the network maybe?) wanted a different one, and she said MG and others backed her and the costume designer up on picking this one.

[Primal Slayer]

She didn't want a "curly/wavy" wig like Sara had. But I took her interview as she just made those cosmetic choices because she said she tried different looks. I doubt they made multiple costumes to try because she wouldn't have gone with the most masculine one which caused her to try to add feminine touches. The costume is the most expensive part and they wouldn't allow Katie to make any major changes to what they wanted. Amell made suggestions for his costume and that was about all, Katie would be the same.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Starfish35]

I didn't say they made several different costumes, I said different designs.

ETA: So I went back and read the quote and I see what you're saying now. When I read it I took it that there were different costume designs on the table, but yeah, maybe it just meant different styling of the same design.

I also had a lot to do with the makeup because it’s interesting we had…like six different tests for what the Black Canary was going to look like when I was the Black Canary. And I was suited up in costume […] Everything looks so masculine in the mask because everybody has blacked out eyes and my suit is so masculine and I was like, it just looked very intense with you know, the suit being masculine, then the face and the black […] And I was like can we make this just a little bit more girly, sexy, and not so harsh? And they actually, at first, that was like their least favorite look and then Mark Guggenheim, our makeup artist, and Greg Berlanti pleaded their case and they were like ‘She looks better this way’.”

Edited September 13, 2015 by Starfish35

[Primal Slayer]

Well I doubt she had much say in the design. 

[apinknightmare]

Bleh. Nevermind.

Edited September 13, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

I really don't think it matters anymore :/ What's done is done. Hopefully they change costumes for everyone at one point.

 

sidebar: Did any of you see Hawkgirl and Hawkman's costumes? They're phenomenal

[Primal Slayer]

Hopefully.

 

The Hawkgirl/man costumes look good, you can tell they put thought into them.

[Delphi]

There was a guy on a pod cast that I watched a while ago - I can't find the guy's name or the pod cast - but he was hired by DC to create concept drawings of a lot of the costumes on Arrow. The costume designer would then bring those concept drawings to life. I'm not sure if it still works like that, or if the same guy is still providing the concept drawings, but that's how it worked during S1 and S2 (the guy was interviewed toward the end of S2).

The person who is ultimately to blame is the one who okayed it. Anyone can provide input and throw something against the wall, but the person with final approval (Berlanti? IDK) is the one who lets it stick.

His name is Andy Poon

http://andypoondesign.deviantart.com/

And I semi take back my statement. His was responsible for Black Canary.

[statsgirl]

My biggest problems with the BC costume is the fingerless gloves, the wig and the strange eyes, which were KC's suggestions.  The rest of it is okay, and I like the lack of cleavage.  Poon seems to have stripes of leather along the legs but I don't see the buckles.

 

For Oliver, it's the bare arms and that's on SA.  With Diggle, it's the blinkered backless helmet.

[apinknightmare]

The buckles are there, they just aren't very noticeable.

[BkWurm1]

I like the spec BC drawing better than what we got.  For one, the buckles are NOT on the thighs which is where I always imagine them getting caught up on each other.  The other thing I like is the normal jacket rather than something that looks like it has garters coming down from it.  Lastly, I really approve of the darkened eyes. 

 

My biggest problems with the BC costume is the fingerless gloves, the wig and the strange eyes,

 

Well, the wig is gone, so that's good.  I hold out a slim hope for a future change to the gloves but I have a feeling the non darkened eyes is always going to stay with us.  It's an ascetic choice. 

[Primal Slayer]

If I don't think about the gloves logically, I like them.

 

Whenever Laurel does get a boyfriend again, I am really interested to see how they handle it and if they will adapt a comic character or give her an original character to get paired up with. And if they will try to tie him in to the overall story of the show or just go on with it being on the side.

[Starfish35]

I like the concept drawing better than what we got, but I can't say I'm in love with it. The makeup is definitely better though, and it didn't have those weird garter belt things. But it still has the fingerless mesh gloves, and what's with those fishnet cutouts on the legs? And it still has those boots. I hate those boots.

[Primal Slayer]

I think they meant to allude to her either having fishnets on under the pants or the pants being lined in some fishnet type material and if she were to get cut, you might see them? But I do like the material they had at the top of the boots and on the side of the jacket. Shame they didn't at least adapt those parts from the original design.

 

It is funny that MG seems to think putting the garter belt on the outfit is such a great way to throw back to the fishnets.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Starfish35]

When did MG mention the garter belt?

[Primal Slayer]

I remember a tweet talking about fishnets and him replying saying something about how they put something on the outfit to throwback to the fishnets and it seemed like he was talking about the garter belt. 

 

Have you seen the fan art of Laurel with the legendary fishnets??? It would be awesome if you guys could incorporate them somehow into her costume!!! Pleaseeeee! Can't wait for the kickass premier!

 

-The leather pattern on her legs is a nod to the fishnets.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/124446784684/have-you-seen-the-fan-art-of-laurel-with-the

Edited September 14, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[BkWurm1]

If I don't think about the gloves logically, I like them.

 

Whenever Laurel does get a boyfriend again, I am really interested to see how they handle it and if they will adapt a comic character or give her an original character to get paired up with. And if they will try to tie him in to the overall story of the show or just go on with it being on the side.

Are there any cannon comic candidates that are known (obviously excluding Oliver) to date Laurel in the comics?  I know Dinah dated and married a cop but his last name was Lance so I doubt they'd go that route.   

[Primal Slayer]

Not really. She had a brief thing with Ra's but that obviously would never happen ever. She had an ex-husband but he appeared like once in the comics.

[kismet]

Are there any cannon comic candidates that are known (obviously excluding Oliver) to date Laurel in the comics?  I know Dinah dated and married a cop but his last name was Lance so I doubt they'd go that route.   

Don't discount these writers from trying... we could have secret Lances everywhere ~ who knows with these writers? :)

 

I had wanted LL to get a LI this season back in May, but now I think I am on board with her just chillin & being her. I still want someone to have LI that is a secret baddie (but somebody more intense, a bigger player & better written than the dumb dj), and I think LL is a good candidate for that. But I don't want that plot this season, it is already jam packed with guest stars & new players.

Edited September 14, 2015 by kismet

[Balaclava]

I remember a tweet talking about fishnets and him replying saying something about how they put something on the outfit to throwback to the fishnets and it seemed like he was talking about the garter belt. 

 

 

 

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/124446784684/have-you-seen-the-fan-art-of-laurel-with-the

 

He was actually talking about Sara suit, the bottom half or her suit had a fishnet pattern on the legs. 

[Balaclava]

Are there any cannon comic candidates that are known (obviously excluding Oliver) to date Laurel in the comics?  I know Dinah dated and married a cop but his last name was Lance so I doubt they'd go that route.   

 

Kurt Lance, his last name can always be changed. I don't believe it would be that hard to get permission to use the character. Between BoP, TT, T7 and BC comics he appears in 46 issues and i think he was on a SS issue too. He was killed, but he's not dead so it's a possibility.

[tarotx]

And they have a Craig Windrow listed as Dinah Laurel Lance's ex husband in new Earth. He's listed as bad. So they have that name as well.

[quarks]

 I still want someone to have LI that is a secret baddie (but somebody more intense, a bigger player & better written than the dumb dj), and I think LL is a good candidate for that. But I don't want that plot this season, it is already jam packed with guest stars & new players.

 

Technically, they kinda already did this plotline with Laurel in the second season - she sorta dated Sebastian Blood, although they didn't end up going very far with that.

[tarotx]

And I actually like that Plot. She instinctively knew something wasn't right. 

Technically, they kinda already did this plotline with Laurel in the second season - she sorta dated Sebastian Blood, although they didn't end up going very far with that.

[kismet]

Technically, they kinda already did this plotline with Laurel in the second season - she sorta dated Sebastian Blood, although they didn't end up going very far with that.

I know. I was bummed they didn't take it further. The writers jump ship too soon on some of their good ideas.

[kismet]

It's not the first or the last time people (fans & reviewers alike) will make the claim that OQ was killed off to make the BC arc happen. And there is some truth to it. The writers needed OQ out of the plot in SC in order for LL/BC to have her moment to shine. The writers had 2.5 seasons to make her the BC, and they waited until s3 to really do anything about it besides giving her the name & mentioning an old pair of fishnets she wore as a Halloween costume. Do I think they could have done it without killing of OQ? NO, not after waiting until s3 to start the story. They should have been building up LL from s1 as a potential superhero with more than just a few throwaway moments. S1 fleshed out her character. S2 gave her a crucible, but without the training or learning curve that both SL & OQ had in their crucibles which in turn made them warriors.

 

The writers chose to have LL do no real training until s3. The writers chose to bring in SL as a pretty spot on Canary with both serious martial arts training, a tragic fleshed out backstory & complex hero/anti-hero issues. The writers chose to have SL fighting crime with or without TA because she felt that no one should suffer under the hands of man. The writers then chose to have LL essentially steal her sister's identity as her part of the existential identity crisis that everyone had to go through in s3. The writers then implied that her motivation was more because it helps with her anger, as opposed to I want to help people (which used to be her motivation in s1). The writers drew LL's journey in the convoluted manner for whatever reasons.

 

It does appear that the writers chose to wait until OQ was dead & gone to bring LL into the nightly vigilante activities as more than just a tag-a-along. These were all the writers choices, not just fans/reviewers pulling stuff out of nowhere. Its all in the scripts, plot & arcs. The writers are the ones that originated through their story that until OQ was dead & gone, LL could not be recognized as part of vigilantism - beyond just some crass remarks by OQ/TA. I may not understand why the writers made these choices, I may not agree with some of them, but their choices remain. The reality is that they shelved LL as BC until mid season 3 for whatever reason. And they pulled her off the shelf when OQ was dead & unavailable.

 

As for OTA3, they were marginalized in s3 for reasons but I don't think that can all be blamed on BC's arc. I think it a lot of the reason lies in the writers' inability to tell a story without caving to their melodramatic tendencies.

[Chaser]

The narrative says Diggle should have been the one to step up. Oliver's Brother, the most experienced in combat and strategy, instead he was comms with Felicity and drove the lawyer with no experience and a few months of boxing lessons who stole her sisters things and pretended to be her. That doesn't make sense. Comic destiny doesn't make up for that.

I think OTA as a whole is less straight forward. But I just go back to MG about breaking apart OTA to make room for others. That means they broke Oliver Diggle Felicity to make room for Laurel Thea. I can see Laurel getting most of the blame because Speedy didn't appear until the last episode. That and Diggle and Felicity supporting Laurel instead of listening to Oliver's valid objections.

[Primal Slayer]

This was a team that brought in Roy who just had experience running around and getting in fights on the street. I thought it was perfectly in character for Felicity/Diggle to be weary at first of Laurel's wanting to be out on the front lines but seeing the determination/drive she had and supporting her against Oliver. Diggle wasn't sidelined because Black Canary came in, he was already getting sidelined when they made Roy into Olivers full time partner. Was it stupid to have Diggle be on the sideline during Olivers "death"? yes it was, they should've had Diggle out there with the both of them since Arsenal wasn't a great fighter either.

 

And Laurel got like 3 episodes that were "dedicated" to her, she didn't take away anyones screen time or story. They used her just as quick as they put back on the sidelines.

[BkWurm1]

This was a team that brought in Roy who just had experience running around and getting in fights on the street.

 

 

Actually Oliver went out of his way to keep Roy out of it.  He let him use his connections on the street and report back but when he started pushing into dangerous areas, Oliver shot him in the leg with an arrow.  It was only after Roy was hopped up on the mirikuru that Oliver let him join the team and then he did get training (until he went into a coma).  There was a too fast learning curve once he was cured but then we immediately jumped to the hiatus so he could have his requisite off screen training.  Despite Roy having actual street fighting experience (not to mention kick ass parkour routines) that wasn't enough originally. 

 

Diggle wasn't sidelined because Black Canary came in, he was already getting sidelined when they made Roy into Olivers full time partner. Was it stupid to have Diggle be on the sideline during Olivers "death"? yes it was, they should've had Diggle out there with the both of them since Arsenal wasn't a great fighter either.

 

But Roy was always side kick.  When Laurel came, she was allowed to act as independent, almost equal.  Which was right for the comic character but wrong for Laurel. 

 

And Laurel got like 3 episodes that were "dedicated" to her, she didn't take away anyones screen time or story.

 

But from a narrative stand point, she was there only because Oliver wasn't and had logic held sway since Diggle was the most qualified, he would have been the one the stepped up to help fill Oliver's shoes, so that was his screen time taken away since the logic of the story would have called for him had TPTB not had a "destiny" to fulfill. 

 

I just wish they could have come up with a better reason to sideline DIggle than because Laurel said so.  This would have been the perfect time for Diggle to suffer a short term yet debilitating injury that KEPT him out of the field.  I would have still known he was sidelined but at least I would have some in show logic to cling to. 

[kismet]

Actually Oliver went out of his way to keep Roy out of it.  He let him use his connections on the street and report back but when he started pushing into dangerous areas, Oliver shot him in the leg with an arrow.  It was only after Roy was hopped up on the mirikuru that Oliver let him join the team and then he did get training (until he went into a coma).  There was a too fast learning curve once he was cured but then we immediately jumped to the hiatus so he could have his requisite off screen training.  Despite Roy having actual street fighting experience (not to mention kick ass parkour routines) that wasn't enough originally. 

***

But Roy was always side kick.  When Laurel came, she was allowed to act as independent, almost equal.  Which was right for the comic character but wrong for Laurel. 

The bottom statement is a perfect summary of so much of how LL/BC has been written. 

 

And your completely right about Roy. OQ did everything possible to keep him from being part of TA and only brought him in when he needed to protect him. QL also tried to stop Roy & educate him about the realities of the Hood.

 

If they had had LL start training in between the s2&3 hiatus like they had Roy & Thea, than maybe she might have seemed better suited to be crime fighting in the streets. I feel like all LL did was stare at that jacket for 3 months with an overexcited smile.

[yellowfred]

So, apparently, Gail Simone started watching Arrow.  

 

https://twitter.com/GailSimone/status/643990364869689344

 

 

@GailSimone Dangit, DON'T MESS UP THE CANARY, tv show!

 

 

Please. :)

 

I wonder how far in she is.  I'm guessing not very, since she tweeted around the same time that Arrow's Oliver is basically pretty much Batman.

[Primal Slayer]

Maybe this means that she has been talks to write an episode for the show? One can only pray.

[dtissagirl]

I thought she's just been posting rando Arrow tweets to mock the folks who keep telling her to watch Arrow? Been going on for a few weeks now.

[Angel12d]

So, apparently, Gail Simone started watching Arrow.  

 

https://twitter.com/GailSimone/status/643990364869689344

 

 

Oh dear. Someone should probably tell her. 

[Sakura12]

I guess she's talking about Sara then, because Sara's THE CANARY and Laurel's the Black Canary as I've been told multiple times on multiple different forums and social media platforms that there is a ginormous difference.