Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Chaser]

I imagine when they filmed 3x20, they didn't know that the airport scene was going to get cut. That makes the scene with Felicity even more confusing. Why did she sound clueless? And if we assume that she was in the know, did she just not care that much? And if she didn't know, given their lives wouldn't you immediately assume something terrible was going on? Show some urgency.

 

It was just weird. MG implied that the airport scene wasn't important to the story. That says so much.

 

It's funny. Ray did some damage to Felicity this season (IMO), but it may have done more to Laurel. She had to share her 'reward' with Ray Palmer, who now gets to headline his own show.

[KirkB]

Laurel wasn't in the know. She couldn't have been. If she was, Felicity wouldn't have had to come to her office to tell her Oliver was gone. A scene cut with Laurel at the airport doesn't matter or count since it wasn't on the show. After he found Thea Oliver called for an ambulance. It wasn't until he got to the hospital and had to stand around worrying that he had time to think and called either either the lair or Diggle or Felicity. We don't know if anyone tried to cal (or did call) Laurel to tell her about Thea but even if they did I wouldn't put it past her to figure there was nothing she could do and stay at work. Since Felicity told Laurel about Oliver and not about Thea, we can speculate either she knew Thea had been hurt but they didn't have time to tell her about Nanda Parbat or Oliver staying, or that Laurel is completely out of the loop.

[Starfish35]

But they wouldn't have known it would be cut when the episode was filmed. So that ending scene would be been shot thinking that the airport scene would be in the episode.

[apinknightmare]

Laurel wasn't in the know. She couldn't have been. If she was, Felicity wouldn't have had to come to her office to tell her Oliver was gone. A scene cut with Laurel at the airport doesn't matter or count since it wasn't on the show.

 

The discussion is about why Laurel seemed to be completely oblivious about what was going on when Felicity came to the office since the original sequence of events was that Laurel went to the airplane hangar, and was in the know that Thea was injured. So, based on the fact that there was originally a scene in the show where Laurel knew what was going on, it was odd that in the scene with Felicity she appeared to not know. Because what if they hadn't cut that scene? She would've looked clueless when we knew she wasn't. 

 

Unless they filmed two versions of that scene with Felicity, just in case they cut the part with Laurel at the airport.

[dtissagirl]

They could have filmed the hangar scene at the start of the shoot, then realized during the shoot that Laurel's part in that scene wasn't working, and had the writer on set rewrite the lines for the Laurel-Felicity scene, filmed towards the end of the shoot.

Weirdly, Beth Schwartz was the writer on set during the filming of this episode, which is funny because she's not credited for it. And the director posted on Twitter that he had one scene with KC: http://twitter.com/antonionegret/status/591087988928450561

-- but Guggenheim admitted to cutting Laurel from the hangar scene. Maybe the hangar scene was shot by the second unit, who knows. Or maybe the director is spinning.

[statsgirl]

 

This was the one scene I had with @MzKatieCassidy, and yet, she killed it.  Loved working with her.  #Arrow #TheFallen

I wish they wouldn't do that.  Now I'm discounting everything nice he said about SA and EBR and their scenes.

[apinknightmare]

I wish they wouldn't do that.  Now I'm discounting everything nice he said about SA and EBR and their scenes.

 

He said something nice about everyone he worked with, as I would expect him to.

[statsgirl]

It's gracious to say something about everyone he worked with but I'd rather he said something like "a real professional" as he said about Willa, or "loved this scene" as he said about the Ray/Felicity scene ,or left it at "loved working with her" because I don't think KC killed that scene, and it diminishes that he said the same thing he said about David Ramsey and Karl Yune who I do think "killed" their scene.

[icandigit]

Sara had so much to tell past and present. There was no reason to kill her off except for Laurel to be BC.

Also, I thought she was an interesting contrast to Oliver. Similar stories but different ways of seeing things. Different was of reacting to things. The juxtaposition with Oliver makes her story interesting and enhances Oliver's story.

[Chaser]

I agree that it really wasn't an impressive scene acting wise; she didn't have much to do.  All of the emotion was from Emily.

 

He may have been sensitive to the fact that her only other scene was cut in the episode. There was so much talk on twitter that night for Arrow and KC/LL was largely kept out of it. 

[formerlyfreedom]

Just a reminder, this is the spot to talk about Laurel. Discussion of Sara should happen over in her topic; discussion of their relationship should go in the Relationship topic. And our thanks for bringing the topic back to Laurel in more recent episodes!

 

[KirkB]

But the fact the filmed a scene with Laurel at the airport doesn't matter. It wasn't ON the show. Not everyone goes to boards like this or goes looking for info on the internet. Most people only have the show to go by. Nothing SHOWN in the episode indicated Laurel was made aware of anything that was happening until Felicity showed up at her office. If they felt it was important to inform Laurel they would have put the scene in, or even done a throwaway line with Felicity saying they left her a message. They didn't do that. This is not a dig on Laurel. The EP's didn't bother. I'm left to form my opinion of Laurel and her involvement with the fact that they show us she apparently doesn't matter enough to warrant a phone call. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by KirkB

[apinknightmare]

But the fact the filmed a scene with Laurel at the airport doesn't matter.

 

 

Nobody is saying that it does? We were merely wondering how the scenes would've initially fit together if the scene at the airport WAS included and not cut, because if it was included and they used the scene of Laurel at the office, then it still seemed then that she didn't know what was going on. That's all. 

[nksarmi]

I suspect that they filmed the scene at the airport and then decided to cut it.  So then we have the scene at the end being rewritten so that Laurel is just now finding out what happened.  Laurel and Thea have enough of a relationship that if anyone had called her, she would have been at the hospital.  I'm guessing Oliver only made one call - probably Felicity - and she called Diggle.  But even if it was the other way around, I don't think Felicity or Diggle would think to call Laurel as they were rushing to the hospital.  They might call her while at the hospital - which could explain why she ended up at the airport originally - but I could also buy them being too focused on magic waters and Oliver joining the LoA to think about it.

 

Heck, we don't even really know if Laurel knew about Roy and his plan yet.  And honestly, after they had worked together like they did, I found Laurel's absence at Roy's goodbye scene more odd than her not being in the know about Thea and NP since everything likely happened really fast.  It's not like Felicity even gave Ray the details.

 

So anyway, I bought Felicity getting back and going to tell Laurel.  I don't think she would have called Roy on that untraceable phone because she wouldn't want him risking his life coming back for Thea so she couldn't drive to him and have that moment with him.  She and Diggle had already had their moments on the plane ride and Diggle needs to go home and tell Lyla and check on Sara.  That leaves Felicity filling in Laurel because she does deserve to know Oliver is gone and why.  I think Laurel probably had a lot of questions but she saw that what Felicity needed was a hug so she did the right thing.  The moment worked for me.

 

I've said it before and I will say it again, as odd as some of the choices are they made this season with Laurel and as bad a choice as I think it was to kill Sara - ultimately Laurel hasn't been bad enough to make me stop watching.  Nothing about Raylicity would make me stop watching either.  What does have me on the edge is how they are handling Malcolm and Oliver this season, but I'm holding out hope for season four to improve.

[apinknightmare]

MG released the script page from the deleted scene, and now it makes sense why Laurel didn't seem to know what was going on in the last scene, and it was because Oliver lied to her about where they were going. She didn't know they were taking Thea to the Lazarus Pit, because he told her they were taking her to a "specialist."

[nksarmi]

Oh and another reason they may have cut Laurel at the airport is because it would piss off some fan group....let's think of what might have been said:

 

1. Oliver tells Laurel to stay behind and be the hero the city needs (people's heads explode)

2. Oliver says something nasty to Laurel about how she has no place in any of this (Laurel fans get pissed)

3. Laurel tells Oliver anything about loving him or something sentimental (olicity fans explode despite the sexy scene later)

4. Oliver says anything kind to Laurel about their past (anti-Laurel fans call BS)

 

I'm sure there are other exchanges that could have gone down in the scene but I doubt any of them would have made any fanbase happy.  The Ray / Felicity was an almost perfect balance of letting him escape with dignity and leave it open for him to be involved in the fold going forward and her being portrayed as someone who had real feelings and wasn't just using this guy, but it just so happens that her heart belongs to someone else.  And some people were still annoyed at that lol.

 

I think its likely a very good thing they cut that scene.

[Chaser]

MG released the script page from the deleted scene, and now it makes sense why Laurel didn't seem to know what was going on in the last scene, and it was because Oliver lied to her about where they were going. She didn't know they were taking Thea to the Lazarus Pit, because he told her they were taking her to a "specialist."

I'm glad he clarified that she didn't know, but that opens up new questions.

[wonderwall]

I think its likely a very good thing they cut that scene.

 

With that script we just read... you're absolutely correct lmao.

[Chaser]

Are we sure KC is going to be back full time next year? 

 

That deleted scene and her lack of knowledge and being completely absent at so many important moments this season. It's like they really don't care. 

[ostentatious]

Are we sure KC is going to be back full time next year?

That deleted scene and her lack of knowledge and being completely absent at so many important moments this season. It's like they really don't care.

It is certainly odd to go out of their way to exclude her from emotional moments where there is intimacy and connections being portrayed if they're keeping her. This woman is iced out of the big moments every time. A big reason to do that is you know you don't need those threads. Edited April 25, 2015 by ostentatious

[Happy Harpy]

I'll echo several other posters in other threads, in wondering WTF, no really, WTF they're doing with this character.

 

"Laurel Lance: Why?" should be this thread title, for fans and non-fans alike imo.

 

On the one hand, the writers went out of their way for her, trying every recipe in the book in what seemed like obvious attempts to make the character work. They gave her romantic storylines, meaty storylines, family storylines, professional storylines. They made her the perfect good-doer, made her a flawed addict, made her an avenging vigilante...OK, depending on your mileage, they Mary-Sued her, Jerk-Sued her, Buckled her up. They reinforced her relationship with Thea in S1, then inserted her inside Team Arrow, they created/forced (mileage again) a friendship with Felicity and with Diggle, connecting her more with other characters than Oliver and especially with Her Mighty Awesomeness Nyssa. 

On the other hand, after going as far as killing her sister to allow her to take her place/fulfill her destiny...per the deleted scene of 3x20 they still write her as an afterthought. Her closeness with Thea is about the only one that goes back to S1 and yet she's not included. She's in the know and yet she's still an outsider. It just boggles the mind.

 

Let's be clear, I do think that she doesn't work with Team Arrow (together or separately) never did and probably never will, therefore she doesn't work on Arrow, never did and probably never will. But then, for me she should have died in the S1 finale. What I don't understand is why the writers keep her, why they spend so much airtime and energy in order to develop her character, and why they sacrificed other characters for her if they don't go all the way.

 

It's been three years, FGS! If they still can't include her at this point because it doesn't have its place/ it doesn't make sense in a show where nothing or almost currently does, or if they don't because they consider that the audience still won't accept her presence around the core three, why do they still bother at all?

 

At this point, I think it's unfair to everyone.

 

I just don't understand why they don't get Sara back on Arrow, where she worked as the Canary (I couldn't care less about the color they give her) and sail Laurel off to the spin-off, where she'd have the chance to evolve in a new environment, with new characters, and maybe finally click in an ensemble. Unless there's another DC nonsensical diktat at play, of course.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Starfish35]

To me, everything seems to be building to Laurel leaving the show at the end of the season. Her growing relationship with Nyssa, the continued distance from Team Arrow, the fact that the writers seem to be deliberately keeping her and Oliver apart this season, the thing with her father.

The problem with this is that I thought exactly the same thing last year. I thought everything was building to Laurel being written out, or at the least, adopting a different comic identity (Manhunter). The way they gave everything about being BC to Sara except the name, the way they deliberately undermined the Lauriver relationship, the way that Laurel was sidelined and treated as an afterthought for so much of the season. And we all know how that turned out.

So I am extremely hesitant to make any predictions about her future on the show. She is a continual conundrum to me. It's hard to reconcile how the writers treat her on the show with the fact that they have stubbornly kept her on the show for the last two seasons, instead of writing her out and replacing her at the end of season one. I don't know how to reconcile the two things. So as much as I might like to hope that she's going to be written out, so much of what the writers do just doesn't make sense, and so until I actually see an official announcement that she's leaving, I'm not going to let myself believe it.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Starfish35

[tarotx]

I think it has to be leading up Larual being the one who is a threat to Evil!Ollie. She will be on Nyssa's side and I think they must be going to use the fact she has no real relationship (no almost a hostile) one with Oliver and a growing friendship/training relationship with Nyssa. I think she will be able to be the bridge between Nyssa and team Arrow.

Though this is a Role that would have fit Sara.

Edited April 25, 2015 by tarotx

[nksarmi]

Good grief - Oliver is still lying to Laurel - about someone Laurel cares about.  Holy crap.  They hate her.  If I didn't think they hated her with the lying to her dad stuff, I am 100% convinced they hate her now.  Between her not getting a goodbye with Roy even though he is who she spent most of her time in the field with and the plan (thank goodness they cut it) being to lie to her about Thea - how is anyone supposed to believe she matters to the show?  Ray gets more respect than this!  Shit - just kill her already, give the actress a few really great scenes to act, and make Oliver feel guilty as hell over it or something because right now, this poor character has no reason for being.

[SonofaBiscuit]

The way that she is treated is strange because as the contracted "lead female" on the show, KC probably isn't cheap to keep around. With the way that her scenes are continually cut, the way that she's completely missing from episodes or has minimal screen time all. the. time, and the way that most significant Laurel scenes are usually not group scenes (they are generally limited to Laurel and one other character---usually her father), I wonder if maybe the writing staff just doesn't have confidence in KC's ability to consistently sell her scenes.  I mean, there's been some really questionable stuff (the gleeful jacket scene that they couldn't even manage to get one good cut of, the eye-darting scene where Slade dropped the truth-bomb about Oliver's identity, Laurel seizing on the table in the Canaries episode, etc. etc. etc.).  Maybe the writing team has discovered that just as they handled CH, it is better to limit the amount of time that Laurel is on the screen.  Frankly, I don't think this is working because people who don't like Laurel are angry that she's still here at all, and from what I've seen recently on Laurel fan's tumblr pages, these people are not pleased with her treatment either.  They seem pretty pissed that her scenes keep getting cut out of the episodes.

[statsgirl]

KC has a contract as a regular presumably for the first three seasons. That means they have to pay her whether she appears in an episode or not.  If her contract is over and if they put her on recurring next season, she may be used more in the episodes that she's in but those are pretty bigs "if"s.  They were able to write Roy/CH much better this season, and while many people are accepting Laurel as BC, I don't know if she's as liked as Roy was even now.

 

In this board's fine tradition of re-writing Laurel's story to make more sense, I think that Laurel should have been involved in some way with at least knowing about the trip to Nanda Parbat.  Maybe they could have used her legal skills in terms of the paperwork required to move Thea to another site. Wouldn't the hospital have wanted to know more about the receiving labs?  They could have mentioned contacting Laurel to help fake the paperwork, or she could have warned them about what Nyssa was saying about the Lazarus Pit.

 

It makes sense for Felicity to be the one to tell her Oliver was staying, but going on from there, she should be incorporated into the grieving and forward planning for Team Arrow.

 

 

It is certainly odd to go out of their way to exclude her from emotional moments where there is intimacy and connections being portrayed if they're keeping her. This woman is iced out of the big moments every time. A big reason to do that is you know you don't need those threads.

The problem is that they've been doing that for the past two seasons and she's still around.  The logical reason to me for making her BC so fast and giving her the Canary Cry already is that they want her storyline wrapped up by the end of this season, but it could also be that they really have no idea what to do with her other than that.  (Drop by, Arrow EPs, we have plenty of ideas to share.)

Edited April 25, 2015 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

Yeah I don't even know what to think anymore. If they hate the character, why is she still on the show, and if they love her, why does the character get treated so badly? It doesn't make sense.

[nksarmi]

The way I feel about Laurel is either get rid of her or fix her.  If Colton was an issue - they figured it out because Roy was such a delight this season that I am bummed he is gone.  Laurel's character needs a revamp from the ground up - they can't fix everything because of already established canon - but as much as they can, they need to look at everything they have setup for three years and pick the best stuff about Dinah Laurel Lance and highlight it and make it stronger. 

 

I don't care if they haven't mentioned her being a gymnastic champion for three years - throw it in and make it part of her fighting style.  Figure out how her being an ADA is going to tie into her crime fighting and supporting Team Arrow.  I don't care if what Laurel is doing is illegal - Felicity does illegal stuff all the time - I only care if she is useful and advancing the story. 

 

And for goodness sake, give this girl a boyfriend and pair her up primarily with Thea and Felicity.  I know people don't want to see Felicity "propping" Laurel, but I think this show could benefit from some real female friendship.  I want every single moment Laurel is on my screen to be a positive experience - which likely means keeping her away from Oliver because he clearly hates her guts. 

[apinknightmare]

I want every single moment Laurel is on my screen to be a positive experience - which likely means keeping her away from Oliver because he clearly hates her guts. 

 

To be fair, I don't think she likes him very much either. 

[wonderwall]

I want every single moment Laurel is on my screen to be a positive experience - which likely means keeping her away from Oliver because he clearly hates her guts. 

 

Therein lies the crux of the problem for me... I don't want her to be associated with Oliver because they're the worst when they're around each other but this show is called Arrow and about Oliver's journey. I mean, the show could definitely use Laurel to advance the plot, but in the end, she would be such a non-entity to Oliver's journey, thus a non-entity to the show. But that's just my opinion. 

 

I'm sure this will change though. I'm sure they'll have more of a friendship based on respect in future seasons. I can't see it now, but once Laurel becomes a competent fighter, I can see Oliver being more accepting of her? IDK I just don't care about Laurel being a vigilante to care about whether or not Oliver accepts her as BC.

[nksarmi]

When a show ruins a character for me - I am usually ready for them to just write that character off.  When said character stays around too long, it makes it really hard for me to look past it.  In this case, Laurel is not important enough to the show for me to leave it if they don't fix her.  However, as of right now, she is an irritant.  I would be perfectly fine if they just establish that she isn't going to be part of Oliver's story for one full season and write her interacting as little as possible with him.  A little distance would do these two a TON of good. Laurel can interact with Felicity and Thea and can even fight along side Thea and provide Felicity with information Oliver needs.  She can be a part of the story without being a part of HIS story.  Once they have a season apart and he realizes that she has become a hero in her own right and he gets a grudging respect for her - then maybe they can pair more up in season five.  But I think the only way she works in season four is by keeping them apart.

[tarotx]

He cheated with her sister right after saying ok I'll move in with you. There is no going back from there. All Oliver has done is lie and cheat in his relationship with Laurel. And she doesn't even know about Ollie's baby mama right? SMH that this is the back story/relationship they gave The green Arrow and The Black Canary.

[SonofaBiscuit]

My problem is that Oliver Queen is the main character and everything revolves around him.  If your story isn't tied to him, you don't really serve a purpose. So yeah, they could continue to keep Laurel out of Oliver's orbit, but then she's basically nonessential to the story that Arrow is trying to tell. 

[wonderwall]

When a show ruins a character for me - I am usually ready for them to just write that character off.  When said character stays around too long, it makes it really hard for me to look past it.  In this case, Laurel is not important enough to the show for me to leave it if they don't fix her.  However, as of right now, she is an irritant.  I would be perfectly fine if they just establish that she isn't going to be part of Oliver's story for one full season and write her interacting as little as possible with him.  A little distance would do these two a TON of good. Laurel can interact with Felicity and Thea and can even fight along side Thea and provide Felicity with information Oliver needs.  She can be a part of the story without being a part of HIS story.  Once they have a season apart and he realizes that she has become a hero in her own right and he gets a grudging respect for her - then maybe they can pair more up in season five.  But I think the only way she works in season four is by keeping them apart.

 

I honestly think the only way they could do this is to make Laurel a recurring character from now on. I honestly don't care about her friendship with Felicity or Thea as much as I care about Thea/Felicity, Thea/Lyla, Felicity/Lyla, Donna/Felicity... Yes there need to be more female friendships on this show, and as much as I liked that scene with Laurel hugging Felicity in episode 20, I still don't feel as though their friendship is organic. I'd much rather have an organic friendship than a forced one.

[kismet]

Good grief - Oliver is still lying to Laurel - about someone Laurel cares about.  Holy crap.  They hate her.  If I didn't think they hated her with the lying to her dad stuff, I am 100% convinced they hate her now.  Between her not getting a goodbye with Roy even though he is who she spent most of her time in the field with and the plan (thank goodness they cut it) being to lie to her about Thea - how is anyone supposed to believe she matters to the show?  Ray gets more respect than this!  Shit - just kill her already, give the actress a few really great scenes to act, and make Oliver feel guilty as hell over it or something because right now, this poor character has no reason for being.

Wow, didn't think I'd ever see you go so dark on LL! The writers really are wearing us all down. Totally agree with you that they should just fix her or get rid of her. I don't need her killed, but I need her out of SC if they continue her on this afterthought role. I mentioned in the Fallen thread that they have moved her so far out of Oliver's emotional & mental orbit, that I wonder why she is still around. I feel like they need to do the same thing with the show's orbit, just move her in or out, but  centripetal force needs to have some effect on her character. She just can't be there anymore to be there anymore, she needs to be something.

[nksarmi]

Wow, didn't think I'd ever see you go so dark on LL! The writers really are wearing us all down. Totally agree with you that they should just fix her or get rid of her. I don't need her killed, but I need her out of SC if they continue her on this afterthought role. I mentioned in the Fallen thread that they have moved her so far out of Oliver's emotional & mental orbit, that I wonder why she is still around. I feel like they need to do the same thing with the show's orbit, just move her in or out, but  centripetal force needs to have some effect on her character. She just can't be there anymore to be there anymore, she needs to be something.

You know it's weird because I don't feel like I'm going dark on Laurel - I feel like I'm going dark on the writers.  I know KC is getting paid no matter how much work she does as Laurel, but as an actress - I wouldn't want this job.  Even if Laurel becomes a badass Black Canary over the summer and she is everything I'd want to see her be - as many have said, she still doesn't really fit into the story.

 

I mean sure, they could write her mainly opposite Thea and Felicity and probably slowly build her up over time, but as others have also said, this is Arrow and its Oliver's story which means ultimately they will try to force her into his story and it just doesn't work.  It hasn't worked for three years.  And frankly, it kind of makes sense given how they set her up to begin with.  I mean, Oliver hates Laurel and Laurel doesn't care for him very much either.  And that's very believable.  He cheated on her multiple times, he burned her with her sister not once, but twice, and she failed to be the ideal he held in his head all those years as his automatic path back to Oliver Queen.  When a relationship goes down in flames like this, it's not realistic to expect the two parties to come out as friends, let alone partners in vigilantism. 

 

And there in lies the real problem with this Laurel.  As much as it seems like they hate her because they have her do things like become an addict and lie to her dad.  It also makes sense that they can't find a way to make her and Oliver work because they created so much bad history between them. 

 

So how can we make Laurel Lance/Black Canary work on a story about Arrow?  We can't.  She will always feel forced and off and like she doesn't belong.  Or she'll feel false. I can no longer see how they can fix it. I mean maybe - maybe - if they had never tried to restart their romance and in season one they had just made their peace with each other and became friends because they both loved and cared about Tommy and he opened up to her and told her the truth and they grieved Tommy's death together (not as lovers - just as friends) and they never had Oliver get with Sara in the present - then maybe I could buy that they buried their past and are friends now.  But as written, its just awful and nothing short of limiting their time together will make her character work.

 

I wish she would transfer to Flash or the new spin off.  I am not opposed to the characters, but I think I am now opposed to her on Arrow.

[wonderwall]

I wish she would transfer to Flash or the new spin off.  I am not opposed to the characters, but I think I am now opposed to her on Arrow.

 

Ironically I feel like Laurel moving onto the flash will piss off a lot of comic fans and a lot of people who like Laurel. I say ironic because they love Laurel/BC but don't think that she can exist outside of GA/Oliver which is... yeah.  

 

I feel like she would flourish with a personality transplant (actually giving her one) and putting her on a lighter show. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by wonderwall

[SonofaBiscuit]

Many of us have repeatedly questioned why Laurel is still here because she's no longer the love interest, she isn't the first or even the better Black Canary (even if the writers try to tell us that Sara was just the "Canary."  Ha, whatever), she doesn't offer any unique skills as a vigilante, and she's barely a lawyer anymore. The writers can't figure out what to do with her because she serves no narrative purpose.  Her scenes often feel unnecessary because they are, but they have to find some way to fit her in the episode, so they do.     

[Sakura12]

When ever anyone says that Sara was just the Canary and Laurel is the Black Canary, it makes me go, okay, I'd rather have The Canary over the black canary then. 

 

Laurel is such a useless character, even the show still treats her like an afterthought. 

[kismet]

Ironically I feel like Laurel moving onto the flash will piss off a lot of comic fans and a lot of people who like Laurel. I say ironic because they love Laurel/BC but don't think that she can exist outside of GA/Oliver which is... yeah.  

 

I feel like she would flourish with a personality transplant (actually giving her one) and putting her on a lighter show. 

I know there are posters here & other places (im sure) that do not want her on the Spin-off. But seriously, I think she would be better served there, than on Arrow. We can get back Sara as a recurring Canary & the new show can get LL/BC. Although, Im not sure we need a full-time Canary or BC on Arrow.  I don't think KC is the greatest actress in the world, but she does have some good scenes & moments. I do enjoy some of the lightness & even some of the bitchiness. I found her scene w/ BR to be enjoyable & fiesty. I don't see her working on the Flash. But the spin-off has potential for a clean-slate & material written to her strengths. I feel like her fans just want her to have screen time & good material, hence their petition to remove MG as showrunner. And honestly, I don't see Arrow moving towards finding a way to be integrated better into the show, but who knows I would be pleasantly surprised if they managed a way in s4.

[Chaser]

I agree that the best spin off for Laurel would be Spin-Off, but I think it would be too hard for them with Caity Lotz. I think she would just end up being 2nd Tier again.

 

Honestly, I would just write her and Lance out. I'm just over the Lances right now. 

[ostentatious]

At least she'd have a shot on the spinoff.

For me at this point, the problem isn't the backstory or anything the character has done onscreen.

The problem is that Oliver/Stephen (cannot tell you which) acts like he can't stand her. He finds her presence exhausting. He doesn't have lingering affection for her. He doesn't want bad things to happen to her, but he doesn't want her around. Ever. He doesn't like it when she is around. And I don't get the sense that this is part of a relationship evolution and they're working back around to friendship. These people, who never felt like they could ever have been friends, do not get on at all, not for adversarial sexy reasons but for genuine *ugh, her* reasons.

She should be going to the spinoff. She should not be on a show that Oliver is on because his clear objection to her presence radiates from her and isn't something that is going to change, no matter how many martial arts lessons she has.

People wondering why she's still around...well, this is the first year it is possible that her contract may be up. Three years is probably the minimum. It may be longer, but this year is the first time it's conceivable that her contract could be up.

Edited April 26, 2015 by ostentatious

[FurryFury]

I don't want her on the spin-off because after everything that has happened, Laurel can't be salvaged for me, her characterization has been just too awful for that. And KC is a pretty bad actress, at least as Laurel. She'll just ruin the spin-off for me.

[Oscirus]

Let's not bring her on Flash. For all the talk about how likeable she was on Flash, she was the only crossover hero to not be shown in action on the Flash. As a matter of fact, her scenes basically amounted to throwaway scenes.

 

I think the reason that Laurel gets very little attention for season three is that they no longer have any idea what to do with her. Once Felicity took over as the main love interest, they apparently forgot to create a new position for Laurel. So if there wasn't a hero journey  happening, Laurel became obsolete.

 

There is no real fix for the character, they might as well continue building her up to the point of turning her into a bad ass and salvage whatever fans they can get from the site of her badassery. If they're really smart, they'll create gifs as soon as the episode airs and pepper the online community with them.

[nksarmi]

I really don't watch that many television shows - how odd is it for a show like this that the lead actress is NOT the love interest? 

 

I mean, I think the writers monumentally failed in season one to setup Laurel for the long haul.  She should have known Oliver's secret in season one - bonus points if she's just smart enough to figure it out without him telling her. 

 

And frankly, looking back, for them to bring Sara in like they did must have almost been a slap in the face to KC.  I mean, I'm sure she is professional and all but she always knew her character would become BC.  So for them to go ahead and create an awesome BC for her to have to follow?  It really seems like they want her to quit or something.  But I don't understand that because from what I do know of shows - if they wanted to fire her, they could - contract or no contract.  And frankly, it seems like they have done all they can to minimize her - it's almost awful to watch because you can't do it for long without wondering what the heck is going on behind the camera.

 

So we have Laurel and Black Canary and no matter what our criticisms are of her - the writers clearly have no desire to make her better.  If she is still around in season four, I hope I'm wrong, but dear lord - this is just so weird.

 

I think the show and Laurel would have benefited so much if they hadn't killed off Tommy.  I really wish - from the start - they would have given Laurel enough dignity to say to Oliver "I love how it seems like you are becoming the man I always thought you could be, but I can't get past how you lied to me and betrayed me with my sister.  And I really care about Tommy now so as awkward as it is, let's just try to be friends." 

 

If they really knew Laurel/KC wasn't going to work as the love interest as early as many of you think they did - that is the path they should have taken with her.  Plus I think killing Tommy was a huge mistake to the story period. MM should have died in Tommy's arms, Laurel should have figured out Oliver's secret on her own, Tommy should have been the one hell bent on finding the Arrow and avenging his dad, and Laurel should have been dating Tommy in season two while protecting Oliver's secret, then Slade tells Tommy the truth about who the Arrow is, Tommy goes and finds the LoA over the summer break and season three should have been about Tommy and Ras vs Oliver with Laurel torn between them.  Hell, even Tommy being so blinded by hate that he killed Sara to get revenge on Oliver, I would have bought better than this season's plot.  So then Laurel has to become BC to help stop Tommy from killing Oliver while they both want to save his soul.  All of this would have let them focus on Felicity as Oliver's love interest while wrapping Laurel into Oliver's story in a believable manner.  Oh well, in some AU, people are getting a much better version of this show. :)

[ostentatious]

If they were invested in her they would've given her a love interest. I don't wanna hear about Wildcat. Whatever Marc, we know you didn't have them read together so you didn't care about their chemistry. The guy sucked, their scenes were boring. A different actor could've done well with it but nobody cared enough to get one. Then he goes off to another series. If y'all had wanted him you could've kept him, but you didn't.

If she is not going to be Oliver's LI then she has to have her own. Otherwise the only connection she has that "belongs" to her is her dad. IRL she can be a strong, independent woman who don't need no man!!! but to entertain me she needs relationships, and Dig and Felicity belong to Oliver. But I still have a difficult time believing the show's structure could ever contain a character never in a dyad with Oliver, and that's what we have with her. She is never in a dyad with him and when they accidentally put her in one, they cut it. They do not want her connecting to him.

[Guest]

I really don't watch that many television shows - how odd is it for a show like this that the lead actress is NOT the love interest? 

 

I mean, I think the writers monumentally failed in season one to setup Laurel for the long haul.  She should have known Oliver's secret in season one - bonus points if she's just smart enough to figure it out without him telling her. 

 

Well, Laurel was initially the intended love interest but they had to make a decision whether to continue with something that wasn't working or go with something that was, and I understand why they chose the latter. And even though I think they've definitely stepped away from her being love interest now, who knows where they'd go in the future? I personally don't think they will given everything they've done with Olicity this season, but if this show goes on for more than six seasons, anything is possible. 

 

But I do think they failed Laurel before the show even began. Just in conceiving her character and the background and the history between her and Oliver. It was all a mess and doomed to fail, IMO.

 

If they always intended Laurel to become BC eventually, they should have had her proficient in martial arts already. She could have started to train to channel her anger after the gambit went down. It would have made perfect sense and fast-forward to the Pilot, she'd be just as trained as Oliver, although in a different way. The desire to become BC and help people outside the law could have been her story arc later. Maybe she could have become disillusioned with the law or whatever. There were so many ways they could have done this better.

 

And then of course they made things worse when they bought Sara back because Sara is the BC in everything but comic book name so now everything Laurel does will always be in comparison. She had very little chance from the start to be honest, but killing off Sara was not the way to fix it. I think I would have enjoyed Sara training Laurel this season. Ugh, they just did everything so wrong.

[KirkB]

For me, the weird thing is, they have continually not done what I expected, only not in a good way. Again and again in the beginning they had opportunities for setting Laurel up to eventually be the Black Canary. They chose instead to go a different route, every single time. Making sure we knew Laurel's relationship with Oliver was toxic before the show began set a bad precedent, especially when they tried to get them back together. Her lack of fighting training or interest in self defense only made sense if they intended to show her getting better over the course of the series, but she never got that kind of screen time. Introducing Sara as the Canary first and giving her all the kinds of scenes and interaction with the team Laurel should have been getting. Even when they apparently decided nothing else was working and just gave her the damn mask, instead of just saying "screw it" and making her a surprising martial arts savant or something they have had her getting beaten down and needing to be saved by the skilled people on the team. KC can't be too happy that even with her being in costume now she's still not part of the team and her scenes are often cut, and her fans aren't too pleased to see her taking so many hits or being pushed aside. I honestly have no idea what the long, or even short, term goal is for Laurel. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by KirkB

[Starfish35]

I really don't watch that many television shows - how odd is it for a show like this that the lead actress is NOT the love interest?

It's not uncommon in procedural type shows (the CSIs for example), although even there you have your Bones and Castle, etc. But yeah, outside of that, usually the lead male and female characters are paired off, in my experience.

What's more uncommon in my experience is keeping an ex love interest on the show once the show has changed directions. This show was clearly designed for the lead female character to be the love interest, the most important person in Oliver's life (thus I think why so many people assume EBR is now the lead actress). But since that person is no longer Laurel, I think they're really struggling on how to handle that.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Starfish35

[Happy Harpy]

I don't suscribe to the idea that the writers don't like Laurel. I think they don't know how to write the characters they truly love. They see those characters with their fanboys/fangirls eyes, lack distance, so they lack judgement and everything they do backfire.

 

Look at Ray. They had always planned to have a spin-off built around that character, they hired a "name" in the superhero fandom at least, and yet they made imo every single mistake in the book with him. They saw him as charming, so they didn't even think he could come across as creepy to people not in love with the character as they were. They botched him so hard that they had to sell an ensemble show instead of a show centered around him, because say his name and a big good chunk of the fandom, even beyond the shippers, reacts as if they smelled a fart (at least, that's my personal impression).

BR certainly doesn't come cheap, writing/prepping a pilot costs money, so I can't believe that it was the result they aimed for, if only because of the business side.

 

When Arrow began, IIRC, the CW's most successful show was The Vampire Diaries, which revolves around brothers (including a woobie rapist, yum!) sharing the same woman: and the couples had tons of fangirls eating it with a spoon. Moreover, comic fanboys aren't renowned for their feminism or even their respect toward women, either. I can imagine that TPTB or the CW executive didn't see the problem with their hero sharing two sisters and with a highly toxic relationship as the show's OTP.

 

In both cases for me, they simply but largely failed to gauge their audience's reaction. Like, at the beginning of the show, they were imo so certain that everyone was going to love Laurel because comics, just as they did, that they didn't even think of giving her a personality or having a plan B in case she and Oliver didn't take off. It probably blinded them so much that they didn't notice the blatant anti-chemistry (that exists imo).

 

I see several indications that they don't want to give up on the character.

First, because no other character, not even Oliver and Felicity even though the couple is copiously used as bait, has benefited from as much as a PR push as Laurel. The continual praising of "Emmy-worthy" performances. The questions asked about any characters answered with something about Laurel. Etc.

Second, because they still try new things. Laurel was reviled during the addiction storyline, even people who were indifferent to her turned against her. If TPTB had wanted to get rid of her, they just had to go with this characterization and write her off, and the fandom would have mostly rejoiced. But on the opposite, they made her the Black Canary, killing Sara and pissing off a part of the fandom in the process. So, they take risks for her.

 

Also, notice the pattern of Laurel's seasonal reinvention:

-First episodes of part A: reboot of the character + set up for part B. Arrow's antagonist + spiraling in S2-A, Arrow's ally + vigilanting in S3-A. Then, a couple of episodes before the hiatus, she's less visible.

-First episodes of part B: Big storyline. Then, she has a "moment" of her own at the end of the season, but she isn't part of the main action. Addiction in S2-B, rising as the BC in S3-B.

 

I don't know what they plan for her at the end of S3-B, but I can draw several (personal, of course, YMMV) conclusions from this pattern:

1) The writers protect the character imo, by placing her big storyline after the hiatus where she can benefit from the momentum gained during the first part of the season.

2) The writers love her, but finally understood that they can't read the audience with her and that's why they didn't trust the character enough so far to give her a leading role at the end of the season. Maybe it will change in S3, since I have the feeling that she regained what she lost during S2-B in terms of appreciation with the part of the audience that didn't utterly hate her (or maybe it's only that Ray was there for sharing). I don't feel that she's loved the way Diggle or Felicity are, but more people tolerate her -only a personal impression, of course.

3) The writers love her, but they don't know what to do with her because, as it was very well said by several people above, she doesn't fit in Oliver's orbit, so she doesn't fit in the core of the show, and they don't manage to find a way to integrate her. And yet, they need the season finale to lure people into watching the next season premiere by using what works best, and they necessarily go back to the core of the show, i.e Oliver's orbit. And so far, Laurel isn't part of either. Which is why, imo, they have to cut her scenes. There's no malice, just logic imo.

 

So yes, I think that TPTB love her, I think they want her on the show, but they don't know how and it shows. And after three years, again, they should cut their losses. Get rid of the character, or give her a chance elsewhere. 

 

I just had an awful thought.

If the writers think that taking the drastic move of bombarding her BC bettered Laurel's situation...will they try to do as drastic  a move in order for her to reclaim her spot as Oliver's love interest, and fit the show in their mind? There's going to be a  wedding, there's talk about a brainwashed Oliver. What if they use the good ol' amnesia  after that, and set him back to his island Laurel photo gazing phase? *Jinx* I'd like to say that it would be the stupidest move since HIMYM's finale, but that's also what I thought of killing off Sara...so I can't put it past TIIC.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Happy Harpy