Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[dtissagirl]

I think we're supposed to see it that Laurel got a high paying job with the fancy pants San Francisco lawyers, but sacrificed that to stay in SC to help people at CNRI. And also to stay close to Quentin, who obviously needed her help as well. "Always trying to save the world" would fit into that.

 

Except... all of this would be super poignant if Laurel was still working with the disenfranchised people of the Glades. But the narrative decision to get rid of CNRI and place Laurel at the DA's office in S2 completely undermined that sacrifice. CNRI Laurel fit that flashback, we saw her caring for her clients in S1. But DA's office Laurel reflects none of that. She's working a fancy clothes job at an office that seems to be trying out for Gross Incompetence Award of the year. They only have to beat the SC Mayor's office for that title, actually.

 

Which is why when this flashback is shown 37 episodes after CNRI was dropped from the narrative, the only reaction I can have is "and I should care why?"

[KirkB]

CNRI made so much more sense for the story I thought they were trying to tell with Laurel originally. Besides the punny name having her a hard working, compassionate woman of the people who had been disenfranchised by the legal system and turned to vigilantism as a way to fix the problems she couldn't in the courtroom would have made her an interesting character to watch. But by dumping CNRI and making her a DA they stuck her square in the middle of the system, far away from the people, and in a position to be at odds with the Arrow. It wasn't helped by the fact Katie Cassidy seems has a hard time with compassionate, The anti chemistry she has with Stephen would have worked if Laurel and Oliver and/or the Canary and the Arrow were supposed to be rivals but the show was determined to make that relationship as confusing as possible. 

[kismet]

Maybe next season she will drop the DA position and go into private practice helping the disenfranchised. As others have mentioned, pulling a full time day job as a ADA & night time job as BC it pretty unrealistic. The work hours alone for ADAs generally have them working on cases through the night. But in private practice, she can hand pick her cases & make her own time schedule. If they wanted they could even incorporate Thea & Roy into working as part of the law business doing para-legal/case prep. The Masked Law team at your service. Verdant will likely not be viable business opportunity after it becomes part of the Arrow investigation. Plus its cheaper from a production stand point because you wouldn't have to pay hundreds of extras to pretend to dance, just because you need something for Thea to do. Now that everyone important to OQ know he is the Arrow, he doesn't need Verdant as a cover for his night time activities.

[Chaser]

CNRI made so much more sense for the story I thought they were trying to tell with Laurel originally. Besides the punny name having her a hard working, compassionate woman of the people who had been disenfranchised by the legal system and turned to vigilantism as a way to fix the problems she couldn't in the courtroom would have made her an interesting character to watch. But by dumping CNRI and making her a DA they stuck her square in the middle of the system, far away from the people, and in a position to be at odds with the Arrow. It wasn't helped by the fact Katie Cassidy seems has a hard time with compassionate, The anti chemistry she has with Stephen would have worked if Laurel and Oliver and/or the Canary and the Arrow were supposed to be rivals but the show was determined to make that relationship as confusing as possible. 

The other problem with putting her in the DA position is it put her in a position of power. It gave her the legal control to put away some of these criminals that Arrow was capturing. You catch 'm, I cook 'm. Through the pro-bono work she could become disilliusioned with the legal system and search alternative means, but as a DA she is already given the chance to change the system for the better. The whole thing weakens her reasoning for wanting to be BC. The whole 'people need someone to look to so I'm going to go out and be the Canary' is crazy. She is in a public position of justice already, just build on that. 

[Delphi]

I just got the CNRI pun and now I'm amused beyond words, I'm only two seasons late.

[Sakura12]

That pun was the whole reason Laurel fans had that she was the Canary. Because a stupid name for a law firm means more then Sara having a pet Black Canary and seeing/hallucinating a canary to give you strength to keep living. 

[Carrie Ann]

Ummmm I also just got that pun.

[kismet]

I just got the CNRI pun and now I'm amused beyond words, I'm only two seasons late.

Don't feel bad I never got it, until you pointed it out. :) And I'm usually good at figuring out puns.

Edited April 13, 2015 by kismet

[Chaser]

And I'm over in a corner going "What pun?" LOL

[tarotx]

It's Kind of Canary CNRI

[Chaser]

It's Kind of Canary CNRI

Thanks! I was leaning towards that, but that is some weak pun game. lol

[tarotx]

It's a non funny pun but as a Sara fan I got that Shoved in my face just the other day. Perhaps there is more?

Thanks! I was leaning towards that, but that is some weak pun game. lol

[Chaser]

There could very well be more. Subtle is not a word the writers know the meaning of when it comes to Laurel.  

 

I don't know of any other character that required the big flashing neon lights.

[dtissagirl]

There was a "cannery" written on a wall at some point as well? I think in that episode Laurel kills the fake Blood cop? CANNERY.

[Chaser]

She also wore fishnets one year. DESTINY!

[statsgirl]

I think we're supposed to see it that Laurel got a high paying job with the fancy pants San Francisco lawyers, but sacrificed that to stay in SC to help people at CNRI. And also to stay close to Quentin, who obviously needed her help as well. "Always trying to save the world" would fit into that.

I really think that the only reason they put that scene in was to justify her being the Black Canary now because there's no in-show indication that the blackmailing ADA is really someone who wants to save the world.

 

 

Maybe next season she will drop the DA position and go into private practice helping the disenfranchised. A

They'll have to find someone to fund it since Ray is going to be elsewhere and Oliver has lost his money and Tommy is dead.

 

I hope the show got it's money worth of making Laurel an ADA and then mostly dropping it because not only is the flip-flopping from one position to another hard to take, they could have mined her being someone who wants to help those who can't help themselves as a storefront lawyer, first going to Oliver in season 2 to ask  QC to help fund her clinic, and when he lost his money, trying to figure other ways to get funding (Ray Palmer?).  It would have continue her crusading lawyer persona, maybe given Sara some cases she could help as The Canary, and put her in the orbit of more people like Ray Palmer or maybe some of the people on Oliver's list, creating a conflict for him.

[Sakura12]

There is a lot they could've done to make Laurel a better character, however the biggest issue is KC can not play warm or compassionate in order to give us that character. Even when the scene is screaming at us that it's warm and compassionate, KC still felt cold and entitled. I've only see gifs but you can see how much Nyssa cared about Sara when explaining why she misses her, while Laurel doing the same thing just has a blank face. 

 

I have no doubt that if they had hired a better actor, Laurel would've been more liked.

[Morrigan2575]

It's a non funny pun but as a Sara fan I got that Shoved in my face just the other day. Perhaps there is more?

IIRC the signs were, all from S1: 

 

CNRI

Laurel mentioned wearing fishnets to a Halloween Party years back when talking to either Oliver or Tommy

There is/was a Canary picture on the wall of Laurel's apartment in S1

McKenna mistook a picture of young Sara and her pet Canary for Laurel.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Menrva]

It just seems to me that should Laurel be found out, then she will be disbarred. A felony merits disbarment, and I believe assault is considered a felony. And honestly, I just want the whole Laurel the Lawyer farce to end already. Just let her be the badass, mask-wearing "heroine" she was always meant to be and get on with it. Let her open a florist shop and stop pretending she gives a shit about law and order.

I would love for Laurel to stop taking herself so seriously. I mean, she's dressed up like a Party City Catwoman while beating the crap out of people, for pete's sake. She may as well run around wearing actual fishnet stockings. It wouldn't be any less ridiculous. And if Laurel could laugh at herself a little, maybe I might actually tolerate her better. After all, I'm laughing at her. To quote the Joker, why so serious?

[kismet]

I really think that the only reason they put that scene in was to justify her being the Black Canary now because there's no in-show indication that the blackmailing ADA is really someone who wants to save the world.

 

 

They'll have to find someone to fund it since Ray is going to be elsewhere and Oliver has lost his money and Tommy is dead.

 

trying to figure other ways to get funding (Ray Palmer?).

They always could still have Ray Palmer fund it as silent benefactor. Maybe her & RP bond when the city is left in their hands while TA is in NP. We don't need RP in SC, just his financial resources. Maybe they'll find some long lost insurance policy or account that Tommy left behind in her name that is just released from the government if they seized his assets as part of a MM thing. They could even introduce a new rich guy who is interested in LL both as a lawyer & a LI, and set her practice up. The lack of money has never stopped them before. I would believe her more as private attorney than a ADA or part of an actual law firm at this point if she keeps up her BC activities (which seems likely). Or they should just draw the law angle, but doubt they'll do that.

Edited April 13, 2015 by kismet

[bethy]

 Let her open a florist shop and stop pretending she gives a shit about law and order.

 

This would be awesome. She resigns from her job - or is fired in disgrace - and Roy says, "What are you going to do?" And Laurel says, "I don't know. Maybe I'll open a flower shop." "But you don't know anything about flowers." "Eh. I didn't know anything about marital arts, either, and it hasn't stopped me from being a vigilante."

[dtissagirl]

The problem is, again, motivation going forward. It's been almost two years since Laurel has shown any desire to help people in need. Even her suiting up had nothing to do with helping the helpless. It was to avenge Sara and/or <insert because comics rationalization here>. And let's be real, the main storyarc this season with Malcolm and Ra's has COMPLETELY FAILED THIS CITY. When was the last time Team Arrow saved anyone but themselves and their friends/family? So why would Laurel even want to go back to a lawyer clinic? The narrative moved past that in the season one finale.

In hindsight, it's really clear that they had no plans for Laurel outside of the love interest role in S1, and some vague intent to make her Black Canary one day. They could have written to KC's strengths in S1. Keep Laurel cold, and bitter, but transfer all of that anger she felt for Oliver into the one percenters, for example. She was jilted by a playboy billionaire, she could have ressented the entire rich lifestyle. Entire new layer of conflict with Tommy right there, even. CNRI work by day, and hey, here's this vigilante dude going after rich people at night, maybe she could help him.

I almost wish there were a way to watch an alternate S1 in which Felicity never happened, and we got to see what exactly had they planned for Laurel, but otoh, I have a super strong feeling that show would have been canceled.

Edited April 13, 2015 by dancingnancy

[kismet]

^^^^ I don't think the show would have been cancelled, but I don't think we would have gotten Sara. They would have left Sara dead in the present, maybe still alive in the flashbacks. Then they would have accelerated LL to BC in s2, likely transferred the inspiration to Tommy's death & maybe skipped her addiction arc. And from there its too much conjecture to figure out what would have happened. As for the LI angle, OQ probably would have been still finding a new LI every some many weeks until something clicked.

Edited April 13, 2015 by kismet

[ostentatious]

There is no way Sara wasn't coming back. The prods said they intended her to be Ravager, though.

[Sakura12]

Yeah, I think had it gone that way. Sara would've come back as a villain, working with Slade. Which I now really want to see, Manu and Caity seemed to really enjoy each other's company so it would've been fun to see that on screen. Plus it would've brought a ton of angst for Arrow and BC. 

Edited April 13, 2015 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

Since Isabel ended up being Ravager, I wonder at what point they decided they needed Sara more as The Canary than as Ravager.

 

 

In hindsight, it's really clear that they had no plans for Laurel outside of the love interest role in S1, and some vague intent to make her Black Canary one day. They could have written to KC's strengths in S1.

THIS.    Did they never have a decent storyline for Laurel, or did they just get attracted by the shiny that was Team Arrow, or did they just give up on making her consistent during season 1?

 

Since I'm one of the people who gave up on the show after the pilot, and returned when O/D/F started happening, I wouldn't have been surprised if the show had got cancelled after the first season.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, Kreisberg mentioned at SDCC that from the pilot they had the image of Sara as a kick ass woman dressed in black showing up in S2. I agree that she would have been a villain if Laurel had worked out at Love Interest.

[AyChihuahua]

"And let's be real, the main storyarc this season with Malcolm and Ra's has COMPLETELY FAILED THIS CITY."

 

A-FRICKING-MEN.

[FurryFury]

Yeah, I think had it gone that way. Sara would've come back as a villain, working with Slade. Which I now really want to see, Manu and Caity seemed to really enjoy each other's company so it would've been fun to see that on screen. Plus it would've brought a ton of angst for Arrow and BC.

 

I'd love to see that! Slade and Sara were always two of my favs (along with Moira), so I was kinda disappointed they never even got a fight in s2, let along a relationship of some kind. I think Manu has at some point mentioned he had even wanted the characters to hook up, heh.

[Sakura12]

Can you imagine if Slade and Sara came back to Starling as lovers and villains. Oliver would've been screwed. Not to mention the angst it would've caused Buckles and Quentin. 

Edited April 13, 2015 by Sakura12

[FurryFury]

Laurel would have still found a way to make it all about herself, as usual. But Oliver's reaction, now that would be priceless.

[ostentatious]

You could see the little hooks they left in place to support Sara being a bad guy. But I don't know that they were dependent upon Laurel as LI, because there were hooks really...215 and earlier. I think that they didn't know for sure how popular Sara would be. 215 filmed in early/mid January. 

[Sakura12]

I didn't see anything that supported Sara being bad. She was damaged like Oliver but that was it. Plus they had changed their minds about Sara before Caity was cast. So nothing in the script was Sara being a bad guy.

What they didn't count on was CL being able to bring a vulnerability to Sara while being a badass. That's what they failed with Laurel.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Sakura12

[FurryFury]

I'd say they were even propping her at Laurel's expense, like showing us how she got Sara grounded because they both liked Oliver, and of course the infamous anger at her daring to be alive. Which is why I couldn't understand how they could ultimately still go with Laurel as BC, still makes no sense to me.

Edited April 13, 2015 by FurryFury

[statsgirl]

But why would they want to prop Sara at Laurel's expense when they knew that Laurel was going to be their hero Black Canary and Sara was going to be dead, dead, dead?

[Sakura12]

I don't think we'll ever understand their decision making when it comes to Sara and Laurel. 

[Starfish35]

Well yeah. I mean, when I see people say "I don't know how anyone could have thought they were going to get rid of Laurel" or "I don't know how anyone could have thought that Laurel wasn't going to end up as Black Canary", I just have to sigh. People are welcome to their opinion of course, but honestly I have never seen a show treat their supposed "lead" female character like Laurel was treated in season two. (Not that I was complaining but seriously.) She got about three episodes in the beginning of the season and then she was completely pushed to the background until Blind Spot. She wasn't even in three episodes. A lot of her storyline seemed to undermine her and specifically the Lauriver relationship. To me it all said that she was on the way out. I still can't honestly understand why they did that with her if they always intended to keep her. Why not connect her to Sara earlier on and let her story and Sara's be more connected? *shrugs*. It doesn't matter now I guess. I just really don't get what their thinking was. They pretty much destroyed her in season two and no matter how much people insist that was the Grand Plan, I find it hard to buy.

[ostentatious]

I didn't see anything that supported Sara being bad. She was damaged like Oliver but that was it. Plus they had changed their minds about Sara before Caity was cast. So nothing in the script was Sara being a bad guy.

What they didn't count on was CL being able to bring a vulnerability to Sara while being a badass. That's what they failed with Laurel.

It's not that it supported her being bad, definitively. It's that they left room. It's mostly about the behavior with and concerning Ivo. There was a lot of ambiguity. CLs performance in general leaves ambiguity. That sense of...impenetrability, stoicism...anything could be going on back there. She is mysterious. It is part of what makes her seem like an actual superhero.

And leaving room makes sense since they were planning to make her Ravager at one point. It doesn't matter to the character NOW. That they left room to make her shady if they'd decided to go that route doesn't make her shady canonically. No more than the fact that they left room at one point for Laurel to be the LI means she's the LI. They didn't choose that route with Sara, but they left themselves opportunity to do so if they needed to. I don't think it was a switch that was made. I just don't think they wanted to not leave themselves room to do that, like if she hadn't worked out.

So canonically Sara is not shady, but they easily could've made her so. Fortunately she was very well received.

And they may well have had hopes of getting rid of KC at some point, we'll never know. Having a much better BC in their back pockets is excellent leverage.

Edited April 14, 2015 by ostentatious

[Sakura12]

Moved to the Sara topic.

Laurel looked to be heading towards the villain route more than Sara. Her entitlement and selfishness works for a villain. I know they'd never go that way because comics.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Sakura12

[ostentatious]

Yes, that is how it turned out. It turned out there was nothing shady going on with Ivo. What I'm saying is that I believe CLs performance was calibrated to leave them room in case they decided they needed her to turn out to be shady. They didn't, so she wasn't.

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder - we do have a topic for Sara Lance, so please continue discussion of Sara over there.

 

 

Thank you!

[Oscirus]

I guess if your motto is "Laurel Lance always trying to save the world." you can easily say that said person is destined for the cape even if the writers don't even bother trying to build up to it. But yea, I agree with the consensus that Laurel got boned in season 2. Hell, even Arrow being revealed to her was barely an important storyline.

 

I actually want her to stay an ADA so she can continue to out herself by defending the Green Arrow way too hard. She's probably neck and neck with Barry when it comes to being crap at keeping her secret identity secret.

[tarotx]

I want Laurel to be bruised & sore and totally worn out In fights and after. I want them to show the physical and mental aspects of being the BC.

Maybe they can show her getting into herbal home remedies because she can't take meds because of her addictions. I think that can be the route to Florist Laural.

I think they should get her out if the DA. But I don't think her being a lawyer is doable with the BC. They should have in as a private investigator. Maybe they can actually have her and her father go into business together. Or have her team up with a potential love interest.

I really do think they need to work on having her be more like the first BC. I think her fighting style fits more the early stories.

They can move back to the young BC and The Green Arrow later if it feels organic.

[KirkB]

Laurel as a PI, that might work...except I'm not sure she has the investigative skills necessary. Unless she teams up with someone who is already skilled and learns from them. They could even double as a love interest. Plus that sort of activity would not be as restrictive as apparently having to be the only person from the DA's office left in the city.

Edited April 14, 2015 by KirkB

[Chaser]

Laurel as a PI, that might work...except I'm not sure she has the investigative skills necessary. Unless she teams up with someone who is already skilled and learns from them. They could even double as a love interest. Plus that sort of activity would not be as restrictive as apparently having to be the only person from the DA's office left in the city.

It's cool. She can just call Felicity for a favor.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm not sure that I could buy Laurel as a private investigator, considering the fact that she failed to notice that Oliver Queen, her ex-boyfriend and a man she had been intimate with, was the Arrow, and Sara, her own flesh and blood, was the Canary.  Observant she ain't.  

[Sakura12]

Well Quentin is a police captain and didn't know Oliver was the Arrow. I'll give him points for figuring out Sara was the woman in black. But he loses them again when he couldn't see that Sara grew an inch and lost a lot of weight. They are like father, like daughter in that front. 

 

Laurel opening a flower shop makes more sense, she can pick up a book on flowers or hire someone that knows about them, like her sister. 

[KirkB]

IMO, Laurel hasn't shown any capacity for running any kind of business. She's the best DA in Starling since she's the only DA in Starling, apparently, but the one time they gave her an opportunity to make a decision they also had her royally screw it up. She hasn't been given another chance. As it stands now I'm honestly not sure there is any position I can reasonably see Laurel in.

Edited April 14, 2015 by KirkB

[tarotx]

Laural worked at CNRI in season one. She should have some investigating experience.

She would have to have a partner. Plus I would see her using Felicity's help.

Maybe they could do a (by another name) birds-of-a-preyish B story that leads help to the A story. Unlike S2 Laural and s3 Felicity&Ray only long term affects Olive's story arc.

[KirkB]

I could almost deal with Laurel's rise to the mask if they had just tweaked it a little. That after Sara died (which I still think was a huge mistake but that's the story they wanted to tell) she noticed people in the Glades asking about the Canary, wondering where the protector of women went and all that, and decided to try and honor her sister by continuing the work she started. Instead, they had her use her sister's stuff to fool and manipulate her father (he should have been told immediately so he could be allowed to grieve and it might not have derailed his relationship with the Arrow quite as badly) and going out not to help people but to feed her own ego and quench her own pain. It seems as if they have gone out of their way to make Laurel (to me) a thoroughly unlikable character while simultaneously trying to convince me she's a great hero, and it's not working.