Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Sakura12]

I think a lot of people think that's what should've happened. Because we also wouldn't have been introduced to an actress that looks like a freaking super hero and can do her own stunts. Making the stunts that much more awesome to watch. 

 

If Laurel was supposed to be the kick ass Black Canary, she should've been trained from the beginning. She could've still been a Lawyer that took marital arts classes after work to let off steam. Instead they decided to make Laurel a damsel in distress and an addict. I really wonder what they were thinking. 

[olicityfan25]

Sakura that's what I was trying to say! If they really intended her to be a viable Black Canary they should of made her more believable.

[Oscirus]

The thing that throws me off is the way they constantly change things about her. Like supposedly the only thing that kept Oliver alive was her picture, yet in that flashback season 3 episode, they didn't even acknowledge that. I get that you don't want to piss off your Olicity fans but at least be consistent with the story you present.  There was also the whole Sara going on a boat with  Oliver but that's ok because Laurel scumbagged Sara first. This was your leading lady until season 3.  Wth?

 

I guess I'm ok with the Canary stuff. Her addiction issues progressed from alcoholism to being a vigilante.  She was so eager to do it, she went out into the field before she was ready. From a realism standpoint, there should be no way that she's going toe to toe with LOA fighters but I get that there's only so much time that you can dedicate to her getting beat up before it starts to become tedious.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Oscirus

[chaos is welcome]

The hanging chads on Laurels character (see Sara's cockblock story) were when I really started to throw my hands up with TIIC and started seeing that they really had NO idea what was going on with Laurel. I still, to to this day, don't get the point of that story, or why it was more important to the narrative as a whole than say, establishing pit viper venom was useful against mirakuru'd folks in the deleted Roy scene from Heir to the demon.  There are about 1,001 ways they could have done Laurel's story better. I end up laughing maniacly every time them show her. but especially when she doesn't get knocked on her ass immediately by members of the LOA. 

 

Its like they get so excited by the new person in costume they forget about it making sense, and then when the newness wears off, they throw the person off the rooftop with some arrows in her. 

**crosses fingers**

Edited April 8, 2015 by chaos is welcome

[Genki]

The thing that throws me off is the way they constantly change things about her. Like supposedly the only thing that kept Oliver alive was her picture, yet in that flashback season 3 episode, they didn't even acknowledge that. I get that you don't want to piss off your Olicity fans but at least be consistent with the story you present. There was also the whole Sara going on a boat with Oliver but that's ok because Laurel scumbagged Sara first. This was your leading lady until season 3. Wth?

I guess I'm ok with the Canary stuff. Her addiction issues progressed from alcoholism to being a vigilante. She was so eager to do it, she went out into the field before she was ready. From a realism standpoint, there should be no way that she's going toe to toe with LOA fighters but I get that there's only so much time that you can dedicate to her getting beat up before it starts to become tedious.

I think the photo thing was dropped more for distancing Laurel from Oliver romantically, than pissing off any particular group of fans.

I like that they show Laurel being injured now she is in the field but she does, hold her own in unrealistic ways, against LOA or jumping out of windows to helicopter ladders, etc.

[pivot]

But you can't factor this in when you consider that Caity did not play Sara in the pilot and that Katie was cast knowing all along that Dinah Laurel Lance was going to become Black Canary.  So, while yes the fans think Caity/Sara is a more believable BC bodywise - the Executive Producers knew they were going to have to give Laurel/Katie a convincing story at some point to turn her into BC. 

 

I almost wish we could retcon some things about Laurel - like toss some martial arts training or kickboxing into her teenage years.  Yes, they mentioned self-defense, but they could have done more.  Or they should have just had her butt in Central City when the particle reactor accident happened and let her get caught up in the accident and get the Canary Cry from it.  It doesn't have to be all *that* logical (this show has proven it doesn't care about logic this season anyway) - they just needed to give her something from the start that would make it believable that she could get into this fight.

The problem is Katie decided to lose about 20-25 lbs between season 1 and 2 making the idea of her being strong enough to be BC impossible to believe. When she was cast on the show in the first season, she looked strong enough to be a believable BC.

[nksarmi]

Pivot - I have been assuming for awhile that Katie lost that weight as part of the season two decent/addict plot line.  I mean I spent almost the entire second season going "what did she do, she looked so much better in season one" but I figured it fit with her downward spiral.

 

Then the actress has said she has been in the gym working out all of this season for the BC transformation so maybe it was planned?  Honestly, she is tall and thin and will have to pack a lot of weight on to build the muscle mass we might be wanting to see out of her, but that doesn't make it impossible.

[statsgirl]

KC said that she wasn't going to read the BC comics until she became the character.  I assume that she also decided not to work out until Laurel did as part of her method acting.  I've always thought that was a mistake because you can't pick up those skills in real life as quickly as a TV character can and it makes her less believable as BC now.

[kismet]

Im no martial arts or comic specialist, but is there a specific style that the BC is supposed to fight in? Maggie Q was always tall & lean (although she does seem to have more muscle tone than KC) and her style of fighting has always been believable in her stunts on Nikita, MI3, etc. There are other tall & lean martial actresses, but I just can't think of their names now. I know both Maggie Q & Caity Lotz have trained years and have earned their believability. But I wonder rather than just waiting for KC to magically develop certain martial art skills overnight, I wonder if the stunts dept would be better off to choose a fighting style that better utilizes KC's body type? I have seen an improvement in how KC does carry herself (that power walk is still pretty BAD though) & her muscle tone does seem to be better than it was at the beginning of the season. It seems like they are trying to duplicate a lot of CL's moves but that doesn't make that much sense considering they are 2 different body types. Not to question the stunt dept, because they generally do a good job. But I do wonder why they don't seem to find a different martial arts style for KC/KC stunt double.

[Delphi]

Maggie Q used Krav Maga, which is a mixture of several fighting styles mixed street fighting with focus on real life encounters. It is known to be immediately and equally offensive and defensive, Maggie tends to actually climb her opponents and drag them to her level to make her attacks look more genuine.

Meanwhile Black Canary is supposed to be highly trained in boxing, kung Fu, muay Thai, capoeira and quite a few others, which I don't think Katie will ever be able to pull off.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Delphi

[Sakura12]

Caity Lotz has some training in Taekwondo, Wushu, Krav Maga, Muay Thai and most recently she stared some kind of Filipino martial arts which is knifestick and staff fighting. That is why CL was able to do her fighting scenes. There is no way KC can ever catch up to that. It'll be her stunt double doing all the fighting scenes.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Sakura12

[TanyaKay]

I don't know really understand how KC's lack of martial arts training factor into her fight scenes being better executed. It is the job of the fight instructor on the set and stunts coordinator to do that. Neither Stephen Amell, nor John Barrowman had any martial arts training beforehand but their fight sequences turn out to be very well choreographed and believable. David Ramsey has had a lot of training but we have not seen that on the show. In my opinion, Celina Jade who played Shado was the best fighter of them all and she has been training practically ALL her life considering her dad is in the business.

 

People bring in Caity Lotz's training as a factor but it really shouldn't be if the production and stunt department is doing their job. I personally think they lost interest in Laurel Lance as a character sometime in season 1 and they cannot really be bothered about creating anything belivable for her. I still laugh at the way Slade Wilson just rang her door bell and dropped the "Oliver Queen is the Arrow" line. That was the funniest thing Katie Cassidy has ever been part of in Arrow.

 

I have a whole host of problems with Katie's acting choices because as an actress, convincing me about her character is her primary job - and she is not the best at that. Making her fights believable is NOT her job, it is the job of stunt department and other people and they have failed in that miserably. People may want to blame everything on Katie Cassidy or Laurel Lance but being bad at fighting is NOT her fault.

 

I think Caity Lotz is a fairly basic actress and just being good at stunts should not mean she get to play a nuanced character with decades of history but who am I kidding. It is not like this bunch of writers is gonna write that character - either for Katie with her bad fighting skills or for Caity with her good fighting and bad acting skills.

 

 

[Sakura12]

You'd rather have a bad actress with bad fighting skills play a nuanced character with decades of history? That's who is playing the Black Canary now. 

 

CL, plus SA made the stunts more believable since we could see their faces while they were doing them. SA doesn't have marital arts training but he worked his ass off to learn. Barrowman doesn't do any of his own stunts and it's noticeable. The stunts this season haven't been as good because they are playing hide the stunt double.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Sakura12

[TanyaKay]

If I have my way, I would not want to see any member of Lance family on Arrow, their melodrama just drags the show down.

 

As far as female fighters go, Agents of Shield is doing a phenomenal job.

I mean they have always had Ming Na playing super bad ass Agent May but this season, Adrianne Palicki as Agent Bibbi Morse or MockingBird is so good, every time I see her, I say this is the person who should've played Canary - a damned good actress and a kick ass fighter.

 

Unfortunately, we are stuck with the bad actresses playing Lance sisters. I guess we cannot have it all.

[pivot]

Pivot - I have been assuming for awhile that Katie lost that weight as part of the season two decent/addict plot line.  I mean I spent almost the entire second season going "what did she do, she looked so much better in season one" but I figured it fit with her downward spiral.

 

Then the actress has said she has been in the gym working out all of this season for the BC transformation so maybe it was planned?  Honestly, she is tall and thin and will have to pack a lot of weight on to build the muscle mass we might be wanting to see out of her, but that doesn't make it impossible.

I don't see her packing on any weight or muscle. I am sure she lost weight for the same reason more starlets do because they want free designer samples. The designer samples are usually between size 00-4 and that's what most of them wear on red carpet events, parties, etc. I

The problem with the weight loss is that it makes it impossible to believe that she could be BC and it makes the difference between the stunt doubles and KC too obvious. Same thing happened on Buffy when SMG lost all that weight. The stunt doubles couldn't match the weight loss and the stunts looked more fake because of it.

[statsgirl]

I remember Manu Bennett speaking at a panel last year explaining the difference in the way someone moves when he has a lot of muscle compared to the way the man who doesn't. It's a combination of how he holds himself and how he moves his body.  Stephen Amell has also talked about how different it feels, the 25 extra pounds of muscle that he has for Arrow.

 

For women, it's not so much the muscle as the way you move or hold yourself. I think that's why it's so easy to believe the Sara and Shado knew martial arts and are good fighters but less easy to believe that Laurel is.

[TanyaKay]

I remember Manu Bennett speaking at a panel last year explaining the difference in the way someone moves when he has a lot of muscle compared to the way the man who doesn't. It's a combination of how he holds himself and how he moves his body.  Stephen Amell has also talked about how different it feels, the 25 extra pounds of muscle that he has for Arrow.

 

For women, it's not so much the muscle as the way you move or hold yourself. I think that's why it's so easy to believe the Sara and Shado knew martial arts and are good fighters but less easy to believe that Laurel is.

 

But Katie was believable in early season 1 when she punched Max Fuller in his club. I agree, it was too short a scene to actually be compared with longer fights that Caity and Celina has been part of but it was still possible. The actress playing Amanda Waller does not have martial arts background but she played a warrior Neviea in Spartacus and it was magnificent. I still believe that stunts should never be a priority when hiring actors. It is an added advantage - for sure - but the focus should always be on acting.

Manu Bennet is a trained fighter but his fighting alone did not make Slade Wilson/Deatstroke such an amazing character, it was his acting that elevated his rather stupid revenge plot line into something believable. I literally got the chills during his monologue in 2x09 when he vowed to ruin Oliver Queen.

[pivot]

I'd be fine with acting being a priority over stunts, but Katie is the weakest actor on the show and she is the worst at stunts. She literally brings nothing to the table and I am kind of baffled as to why she is still around.

[kismet]

I never meant to imply that stunts should take priority over acting. Still think acting is a priority. I just wonder if there are better fighting styles for different body types than perhaps it might be worth it to give some of them a try, especially if they have no plans to change KC/LL/BC.

[looptab]

Honestly, KC's lack of credibility as a fighter is the least of my problems. It's her lack of credibility as anything else that's an issue to me. JB, he conveys the kind of intimidation that MM should convey; Colton has stated numerous times he doesn't do any of the stunts, but I don't really care it's not really him that parkours his way through Starling City. I don't think Willa Holland does her stunts either, yet I can buy Thea as a badass fighter, I can buy when she's a wounded teenager, I can buy that all the experiences she's been through recently have brought her to a very dark place and she's struggling with that. And I feel for her. 

 

Then you have Laurel, who has had:

-her boyfriend cheating on her with her sister, resulting in the presumed death of them both;

-her mother leaving town;

-her father becoming an alcoholic who she had to take care of;

-boyfriend coming back to life;

-other boyfriend dying to save her;

-numerous kidnappings and life-threatening situations;

-addiction and alcoholism of her own;

-unemployement;

-sister coming back to life;

-sister starting to date the same ex-boyfriend;

-sister dying again;

-sister being killed by ex-boyfriend's sister.

 

And I can't bring myself to care about any of this. 

[Oscirus]

I never thought about how much stuff Laurel's gone through but that list though. The sad part is that probably still doesn't put her on the list of the top three suffering people on this show. Wow.

 

Laurel not being all that big in terms of fighting fits the narrative of her becoming the Black Canary before she was ready to do. If you look at all the other people on the show, they became heroes because they had to, Laurel wants to become a hero so bad she could taste it, hence the impatience and the lack of training and the lack of practice and the lack of fighting sense.  That being said, the show definitely needs to hire someone to work with Laurel in terms of building her glamour muscles over the summer so that next season she will look the part of someone who has been training with Nyssa.

 

 

[nksarmi]

I don't see her packing on any weight or muscle. I am sure she lost weight for the same reason more starlets do because they want free designer samples. The designer samples are usually between size 00-4 and that's what most of them wear on red carpet events, parties, etc. I

The problem with the weight loss is that it makes it impossible to believe that she could be BC and it makes the difference between the stunt doubles and KC too obvious. Same thing happened on Buffy when SMG lost all that weight. The stunt doubles couldn't match the weight loss and the stunts looked more fake because of it.

I think KC looks better this season than last and I do think it's important that she put on even more muscle weight.  When it comes to SMG/Buffy, it was almost ok that she got super skinny (I thought she looked horrible, but that isn't the point) because her character had superpowers.  Her fighting abilities were based on magic.  Other than the Canary Cry - BC's abilities are not supernatural.  She isn't a badass fighter who can train Superboy because of magical skills.  So yes, KC's body needs to somewhat look the part.  That should have been part of casting and since it wasn't - they need her to work on it now.

[Chaser]

Over the summer, KC was posting about getting in great shape and she looked it. She also looked skinny, not S2 skinny which was extreme, but really slim. She may have the body type and bone structure that promotes lean muscles as opposed to bulk. My sister is the same way. She works out and eats healthy and has muscles but is like a size 0/2. So she looks skinny. 

 

I think KC looked great in S1, maybe she wasn't in what KC considered BC shape, but she strong and healthy. Since a stunt double does the physical part anyone, I wouldn't worry about KC learning how to fight with some crazy martial arts. I would focus her in something that strengthens her core. Teach her stances and walks and how to carry weapons. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[KirkB]

It seems to me a lot of the issues some people have with Katie not looking the part (not muscular/athletic enough, etc) are based on expectations from the character in the comics. Dinah Laurel Lance was the daughter of a skilled martial artist who became one of the best fighters in the world and has a metahuman canary cry. She could outfight Batman. But that was comics. This is a television adaptation. Laurel here is a lawyer who later in life has decided to become a vigilante and we're going to have to watch her build up her skills and experience. The becauseComics! excuse doesn't carry any weight since they are obviously not trying to simply recreate them or else nothing would ever be different, the EP's are making their own interpretation. Personally, I never really wanted a Canary, Black or otherwise, on the show. At least not yet. I wanted to see Oliver's evolution into the Green Arrow, not have it shoved to one side so the EP's can cram in as many other new super people as they can get their hands on. And none of that is Katie's fault.

[statsgirl]

I don't come from the comics (at least not the GA/BC comics) so I had no expectations about either the part or the actress, who I had never seen before.  What I saw in the pilot was a character that irritated me so much, I dropped the show until I was channel flipping one day, came across an Oliver/Diggle/Felicity scene and decided to give the show another shot.

 

Laurel not being all that big in terms of fighting fits the narrative of her becoming the Black Canary before she was ready to do. If you look at all the other people on the show, they became heroes because they had to, Laurel wants to become a hero so bad she could taste it, hence the impatience and the lack of training and the lack of practice and the lack of fighting sense.

They need to address this because it's one of a number of reasons that Laurel is different than the other characters,  She doesn't do what she does to save others (even Moira wanted to save her family and then the city), she is the only "good guy" who doesn't accept responsibility for her actions, and even more the Malcolm she makes everything about her.  How are we to accept a superhero that does the job not to help others but because it fits her Lady Bountiful self-image?

 

The other problem is KC's acting.  Barrowman brings the menace even though he doesn't have the fighting skills himself, I believed Willa Holland's Thea even when I didn't like the character, CL made an assassin so vulnerable I just wanted to hug her and make her feel better, and Katrina Law 's Nyssa is the biggest badass on a show of badasses.  As a character, Laurel is so problematic that we're on page 54 of this thread, where John Campea quit the show because he didn't believe the transformation and Matt Roush at TV Guide says just think about the other things that are on the show. 

 

This season, the writers have really caught Colton Hayes' strengths and, writing to that, have made Roy a really good character.  By now the TV show has proved that it doesn't follow the comics slavishly.  If they're going to keep Katie Cassidy on the show and made her the Black Canary, they need to write her to KC's strengths and they're still not doing that except occasionally, for all that they say Laurel isn't Insta-Canary.

[lizonthefritz]

I never thought about how much stuff Laurel's gone through but that list though. The sad part is that probably still doesn't put her on the list of the top three suffering people on this show. Wow.

 

Laurel not being all that big in terms of fighting fits the narrative of her becoming the Black Canary before she was ready to do. If you look at all the other people on the show, they became heroes because they had to, Laurel wants to become a hero so bad she could taste it, hence the impatience and the lack of training and the lack of practice and the lack of fighting sense.  That being said, the show definitely needs to hire someone to work with Laurel in terms of building her glamour muscles over the summer so that next season she will look the part of someone who has been training with Nyssa.

I've had a hard time seeing Laurel as a hero at all, and the highlighted portion really made it click for me why that is: Laurel's drive seems to be all about the glory of being looked at as a hero, not about actually doing good for others. (I admit, KC's apparent input into her costume, with the matching nail polish and lipstick miiight play into this a little.)

 

And it also harkens back to the Oliver/Laurel relationship in that I never saw actual love between them, but most especially from her (which is weird considering what an absolute ass Ollie was to her when they were together - it's still her feelings I doubt). Turning a blind eye to someone's repeated infidelities doesn't sound at all like what a person who loves someone would do. It sounds like what someone does when they are in love with the idea of what their own life will be like if they're with that person. Basically, whenever Laurel or Oliver proclaim their great love in season one all I see is a golddigger and a jerk who wants to think that he's a nice guy, when he's actually a shitty person.

[Sakura12]

I think Laurel's motivation for being a hero is because she wants the glory that comes from it. She had no desire to be one until she saw Sara rescue a kid from a burning building and people called her a hero. Then all of sudden she was "destined" for a mask. 

 

Heroes don't declare themselves heroes. I have that same issue with Barry on the Flash. 

[wonderwall]

I think it's a mix of glory (she really did have a hard on for masks after she found out about Oliver being the Arrow and Sara being the Canary), and self indulgence because she's addicted to the high or something? IDK. Either reason isn't good enough to be a superhero. I wonder if the writers actually give a damn to address that in the future?

[Chaser]

I think it's a mix of glory (she really did have a hard on for masks after she found out about Oliver being the Arrow and Sara being the Canary), and self indulgence because she's addicted to the high or something? IDK. Either reason isn't good enough to be a superhero. I wonder if the writers actually give a damn to address that in the future?

I doubt it. The way they have handled her motivation has been incredible sloppy. They tried to sell it as honoring her sister, but they seemed to drop that narrative after one episode (3.03). They tried to do the vengeance thing but all Ted had to do was say she would never get it and that was that. When she actually put on the mask it was more motivated by Oliver being gone then it was about Sara. They tried to make it about Sara again in the next couple episodes only to torpedo that in 3.14 with the whole 'I was always headed for the mask.' Which literally makes NO SENSE. I honestly don't understand how they screwed this up. In all honesty, working thru the whole justice/vengeance/honoring is fine for a season or two but they did it in a handful of episodes. So sloppy.

 

I think her origin story is done after this season. She will be the Black Canary. No more episodes about motivations or comments about her lack of training. She will probably be miles better by S4. I have no idea what they are going to do with her then.

[KirkB]

Oh, starting out doing it for fame and glory can work. Look at Spider-Man. When Peter Parker first got his powers he just wanted to use them to get rich. It took his uncle getting killed by a guy he let run by him to realign his priorities. But I do agree you can't really call yourself a hero. Well, you can, but it doesn't mean anything unless it comes from someone else. Oliver, by most peoples standards, is a hero but he certainly doesn't think of himself that way. Neither do Felicity and Diggle, even though it applies to them too. Roy did but I think he's moved away from it. Barry still does, but he's also a little immature and doesn't quite get yet that you can call yourself a hero but you still have to prove it. Laurel, on the other hand, comes off (to me) as both jealous and entitled. She saw the respect Oliver and Sara were getting from people they saved and wanted some of it for herself. And she beats up on people now supposedly because she's trying to help but mainly because it makes her feel strong and damn it, why won't everyone just admit how cool she is? She wants the attention and the praise, and she's going to keep charging into fights she can't win and jumping off rooftops without a plan until she gets what she deserves. 

[statsgirl]

I keep getting the feeling that there are two Laurel's. There's the one that's described here, organic and consistent and often not a nice person. (But then, neither weres Moira or Robert.)  And then there's the one the EPs tell me about

where Cisco's "I love you" stands in for the audience.

[Menrva]

Oh, starting out doing it for fame and glory can work. Look at Spider-Man. When Peter Parker first got his powers he just wanted to use them to get rich. It took his uncle getting killed by a guy he let run by him to realign his priorities. But I do agree you can't really call yourself a hero. Well, you can, but it doesn't mean anything unless it comes from someone else. Oliver, by most peoples standards, is a hero but he certainly doesn't think of himself that way. Neither do Felicity and Diggle, even though it applies to them too. Roy did but I think he's moved away from it. Barry still does, but he's also a little immature and doesn't quite get yet that you can call yourself a hero but you still have to prove it. Laurel, on the other hand, comes off (to me) as both jealous and entitled. She saw the respect Oliver and Sara were getting from people they saved and wanted some of it for herself. And she beats up on people now supposedly because she's trying to help but mainly because it makes her feel strong and damn it, why won't everyone just admit how cool she is? She wants the attention and the praise, and she's going to keep charging into fights she can't win and jumping off rooftops without a plan until she gets what she deserves. 

I completely agree with your entire post. I imagine it'll be too much to ask that Laurel ever really pays for any mistake she makes, or any innocent who is injured or killed because of her stubbornness and selfishness. And because Oliver, Diggle, Roy and Felicity are decent people, Laurel can run around beating people up knowing they'll always have her back. One of those days, I wonder what she'll do if there's no one to save her ass when she's out of her depth. I mean, she jumped off that roof with no cable and she's damned lucky Oliver was there to grab her. She just assumes there will always be someone to bail her out.

[statsgirl]

 I mean, she jumped off that roof with no cable and she's damned lucky Oliver was there to grab her. She just assumes there will always be someone to bail her out.

When I read a comment that Sara was the favored child and Quentin and Dinah never really valued Laurel enough for all she did, I wonder if we're watching different shows. 

 

Laurel always goes ahead and does what she wants (which is okay) but she always thinks that someone will be there to catch her.  That's a real sign of the favored child.

 

This is why it's hitting her so hard that her father won't forgive her on her timetable now. He always has before.

[dtissagirl]

My biggest problem still is that Laurel is all about tell instead of show. It's one of the main reasons all I get from her is cognitive dissonance. The narrative says one thing, but shows another.

 

Three characters have said the dreaded "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" line. But where are all of these people that she's saved? In fact, everyone who's said the death curse [Tommy, Sara, Quentin] have been shown in heroic moments, including saving Laurel herself. But all we get with her is being told about it, and very seldom shown her being heroic.

[Menrva]

My biggest problem still is that Laurel is all about tell instead of show. It's one of the main reasons all I get from her is cognitive dissonance. The narrative says one thing, but shows another.

 

Three characters have said the dreaded "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" line. But where are all of these people that she's saved? In fact, everyone who's said the death curse [Tommy, Sara, Quentin] have been shown in heroic moments, including saving Laurel herself. But all we get with her is being told about it, and very seldom shown her being heroic.

It's not even like she's sitting around with a police scanner, listening for crimes to stop or emergencies, like they did in "The Incredibles". Laurel just doesn't seem compelled to go save people. I really, really want to know what her fans see in her! Where are all these examples of Laurel's selflessness? The one time that stuck with me was all the way in season one when Laurel and Tommy were sheltering that little boy who was being targeted by some criminals. 

Oliver looked so relieved when Diggle and later Felicity and Roy joined him; he was prepared to fight his battles all alone. He never expected that anyone would want to help him. Laurel is reaping (unfairly, IMO) all the benefits of their teamwork without offering anything in return.

[lizonthefritz]

My biggest problem still is that Laurel is all about tell instead of show. It's one of the main reasons all I get from her is cognitive dissonance. The narrative says one thing, but shows another.

 

Three characters have said the dreaded "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" line. But where are all of these people that she's saved? In fact, everyone who's said the death curse [Tommy, Sara, Quentin] have been shown in heroic moments, including saving Laurel herself. But all we get with her is being told about it, and very seldom shown her being heroic.

 

I think her job in season 1 was their one and only attempt to show this apparent altruistic streak in her, but then they took that away and nothing since has made me think at all that Laurel was someone who cared about others in any significant way.

 

I wonder if they thought that was supposed to be enough to put the audience in a permanent mode of "Laurel Lance is a good person", even as they completely trashed her character? Like, that one act was supposed to outweigh everything that came after (and during)?

[Sakura12]

When I read a comment that Sara was the favored child and Quentin and Dinah never really valued Laurel enough for all she did, I wonder if we're watching different shows. 

 

Laurel always goes ahead and does what she wants (which is okay) but she always thinks that someone will be there to catch her.  That's a real sign of the favored child.

 

This is why it's hitting her so hard that her father won't forgive her on her timetable now. He always has before.

 

From what I saw, Laurel was the golden child, the one that was the good girl and got good grades. Dating Oliver Queen is probably the only thing her parents didn't like. Of course knowing how Oliver was back then I don't blame them one bit. Sara was the trouble maker that didn't care about school. Quentin and Dinah may have had to pay more attention to her because they always had to bail her out of whatever trouble she was in. I could see Laurel taking that as Sara was monopolizing their parents time away from her.

 

To me it seemed like Laurel was in a competition (in her own mind) with Sara, while Sara was oblivious. They showed us that Sara told big sis Laurel about her crush on Oliver as a little sister would when she didn't know her big sister was planning on manipulating the situation to her favor. After that Sara started playing. I think Sara was the type that did what she wanted and didn't think about the consequences. Laurel cares about what others think of her and wants the attention to always be on her. Sara's experiences changed her for the better, while Laurel is still the exact same. 

[manbearpig]

I still don't understand why the writers bothered with that 'Sara liked Oliver first' retcon. All it did was make Laurel look bad for no reason. She was already spiralling in present day Starling at that point in season two anyway, so...why? I quite liked Laurel's drunken shenanigans after Three Ghosts, but still.

[nksarmi]

I still don't understand why the writers bothered with that 'Sara liked Oliver first' retcon. All it did was make Laurel look bad for no reason. She was already spiralling in present day Starling at that point in season two anyway, so...why? I quite liked Laurel's drunken shenanigans after Three Ghosts, but still.

Yea I don't know, I mean they knew they wanted to transform Laurel in BC someday, why take her character down yet another peg by saying that her original love story with Oliver wasn't just tainted by his cheating, but also by her stealing him from Sara?  Plus that story doesn't - in my mind - gel with Oliver's "I've loved you half my life" line that came later.  I actually have some real questions about how Oliver - a billionaire's kid - grew up with Laurel anyway.  How exactly did they go to the same school?  I guess I can believe that Dinah made enough money that she saved every dime and pushed her daughters through an elite private school, but is it realistic that Oliver was dating Laurel instead of another rich kid?  I don't know - I really wish they had written Oliver and Laurel much differently.

[statsgirl]

The party story showed that Laurel did something not nice independent of something bad happening to her first. I've seen posts about Laurel's reaction to Sara showing up alive being less than sisterly and responses saying that she was in the middle of an addiction so of course she acted badly.  Deliberately getting Sara grounded wasn't a result of Oliver cheating or Tommy dying, it was another side of Laurel.

 

In my head canon, Laurel and Oliver met in grade 9 (age 14) when Dinah got Laurel in to the fancy prep school that Oliver and Tommy went to (by then Dinah would have been working and she and Quentin made sacrifices for their daughters to get the best education).  Sara joined two years later.  By then, Laurel considered Oliver her property even though they weren't dating yet.

 

Laurel grew up blue collar on her father's side, but at school she saw what money could buy and she wanted that life, not a small house where she may have had to share a bedroom with her sister.  To her credit, she was willing to work for it though, she wanted to be a lawyer and I assume that she got scholarships to help pay for her college and law school education and her apartment.

 

I always had the sense that Moira approved of Laurel, she saw her as a good influence on Oliver and someone she could mold in her own image.  She was probably right.

 

To me it seemed like Laurel was in a competition (in her own mind) with Sara, while Sara was oblivious. They showed us that Sara told big sis Laurel about her crush on Oliver as a little sister would when she didn't know her big sister was planning on manipulating the situation to her favor. After that Sara started playing. I think Sara was the type that did what she wanted and didn't think about the consequences. Laurel cares about what others think of her and wants the attention to always be on her. Sara's experiences changed her for the better, while Laurel is still the exact same. 

I think Laurel was used to being the center of attention. She was beautiful, smart, determined, while Sara was the fun child who didn't take things so seriously. It seems like they had a good relationship as they were growing up. But as Sara grew older and started to take the attention away from Laurel, e.g. crushing on Oliver and later when she returned from the dead, Laurel started to resent her and it became about winning the competition.

[nksarmi]

statsgirl - I like your analysis of Laurel, but I want to cut her a little more slack on her being pissed that Sara showed up alive thing.  Given what they showed us, Sara's death was like a wrecking ball on the Lance family.  Quentin fell into the bottle, Dinah left, and Laurel had to deal with her sister's death, her boyfriend's betrayal and death, her sister's divorce, and become the adult daughter of an alcoholic - being the person who would pick him up and take him home whenever he needed it.

 

Actually, a lot of Laurel's behavior with pre-island Oliver could be that of a person who grew up as an enabler if Quentin had a problem before Sara died which at times - they have implied that was the case.  In fact, given all this discussion about how Laurel isn't really a hero (and hasn't really been shown as altruistic since season one), the line "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world," really could have been the line you toss around about an enabler who is just kind of sad.  Like it's almost like it wasn't really a compliment.

 

So anyway, I think Laurel's anger at Sara should have been as simple as "If you were alive all this time, why didn't you come home and save us all this pain?"  I don't think that's how they played it on screen - but to me, that is how it should have gone.

Edited April 11, 2015 by nksarmi

[ostentatious]

I still don't understand why the writers bothered with that 'Sara liked Oliver first' retcon. All it did was make Laurel look bad for no reason. She was already spiralling in present day Starling at that point in season two anyway, so...why? I quite liked Laurel's drunken shenanigans after Three Ghosts, but still.

It was part of their season and a half of walking back the Lauriver relationship. They basically reframe everything they ever set up as indicative of OTPness as something indicative of their NOTPness. So, it wasn't to make you think one way or the other about Laurel. It was to show you that Oliver had info way back on the island that made him start the mental separation process. It was in 211, IIRC, Blind Spot. In 213 you had the Sara/Laurel flashback where you get confirmation Laurel knew about the serial cheating and where she comes across as just determined to nail him down. Then in 214 you have Oliver telling her he's done feeling like her bad choices are his fault and he's done with her period.

[statsgirl]

I like your idea that Laurel grew up an enabler, it's kinder than the gold-digger explanation.  Maybe it's also a resemblance to Moira, who looked the other way during Robert's infidelities.

 

They could have made Laurel angry at Sara, but first they needed to make her glad that her sister was alive after all.  Her immediate reaction on receiving the news that the sister she thought had died was really alive was anger, not joy.  That was a bad move on the part of the EPs because there's way less sympathy for that.

 

 

Given what they showed us, Sara's death was like a wrecking ball on the Lance family.  Quentin fell into the bottle, Dinah left, and Laurel had to deal with her sister's death, her boyfriend's betrayal and death, her sister's divorce, and become the adult daughter of an alcoholic - being the person who would pick him up and take him home whenever he needed it.

In family therapy, there's often the "designated patient" the child who messes up deliberately to draw the attention of a dysfunctional family on him/herself, becoming the focus of attention to keep the family intact, and once that person gets, the family falls apart.

 

But do we have anything to suggest that the Lance family was having problems before Sara 'died'?  In the clip we had, Quentin was happily making lasagna, Dinah was grading papers and no one had a drink or any indication that there were pre-existing problems.

 

Statistically, half of marriages fall apart when a child dies.  It's the Occam's Razor explanation for Dinah and Quentin.  Laurel had already moved out by then.

[KenyaJ]

They could have made Laurel angry at Sara, but first they needed to make her glad that her sister was alive after all.  Her immediate reaction on receiving the news that the sister she thought had died was really alive was anger, not joy.  That was a bad move on the part of the EPs because there's way less sympathy for that.

 

This is the exact same mistake they made in her with Oliver, and the reason I hated the idea of a Oliver/Laurel pairing from their first scene together. Who reacts with anger to news of the supposed love of their life being found alive after 5 years? Yes, her anger was completely justified, but it needed to follow at least a brief moment of happy disbelief that he wasn't dead. I don'y understand why the writers were incapable of writing that emotional beat for Laurel. 

[nksarmi]

I like your idea that Laurel grew up an enabler, it's kinder than the gold-digger explanation.  Maybe it's also a resemblance to Moira, who looked the other way during Robert's infidelities.

 

They could have made Laurel angry at Sara, but first they needed to make her glad that her sister was alive after all.  Her immediate reaction on receiving the news that the sister she thought had died was really alive was anger, not joy.  That was a bad move on the part of the EPs because there's way less sympathy for that.

 

In family therapy, there's often the "designated patient" the child who messes up deliberately to draw the attention of a dysfunctional family on him/herself, becoming the focus of attention to keep the family intact, and once that person gets, the family falls apart.

 

But do we have anything to suggest that the Lance family was having problems before Sara 'died'?  In the clip we had, Quentin was happily making lasagna, Dinah was grading papers and no one had a drink or any indication that there were pre-existing problems.

 

Statistically, half of marriages fall apart when a child dies.  It's the Occam's Razor explanation for Dinah and Quentin.  Laurel had already moved out by then.

They were showed as a happy family before the death - which could work with this story and might not.  I have seen adult children react worse to their parent's divorce than kids do.  You would think an adult could process it better, but instead it seems to destroy their reality.

 

The stuff with Quentin and booze is hard to figure out.  He talks about addiction and their family like it has been a long running issue (his parents or siblings perhaps?) not a problem he faced when dealing with tragedy.  There have been hints that not everything was perfect in the Lance house before Sara's death, but I don't think it was miserable either.  It's just hard to figure out when Laurel became an enabler because she definitely has that in her a bit.

 

I don't mind her being angry first with Oliver.  In his case, she had the news announcements to process the shock (which is what her first reaction should have been) and move on to the emotional part of it before she saw him.  Anger makes a lot of sense in his case.  With Sara, the anger also makes sense, but I would have rather seen the mix of grief and anger and relief all at once.  I know we complain about too my crying on the show, but in that case, Laurel breaking down in tears unable to state her confused feelings would have also worked.

[steeledwithakiss]

A lot of people started disliking Laurel because she was too nasty with Oliver in the pilot. Funny but I started disliking her when she went back to him (during Tommy's party) being all nice to him. I kept thinking he cheated on you with your sister and then she died as a consequence and you're being nice to him? I was so disappointed she was not sticking to her guns and then Oliver was the one who had to reject her (for her own protection of course). Then on the next episode she started being nasty to him again (in the courthouse) but not for cheating and somewhat being responsible for her sister's death, no not for that, but for rejecting her. I felt a disconnect with Laurel since day one because it seems to me she'd be willing to go back to Oliver in a second if he wanted her to. At the same time she's supposed to be that strong person. It was the same problem with the kickass but woman in distress dissonance. And now we're supposed to see her as hero, everyone tells us on the show it's because she always wanted to help people but what I see is she wants to be part of the cool kids club and have a mask too.

Edited April 11, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[Oscirus]

Given that the writers seem to love writing in clichés, it's not hard to see what they were going for with Sara being the favorite. The "type A" overbearing child who tries to be perfect for their parent against the laid back rebellious one? In these situations the writers almost always make the rebellious child the favorite. The most recent examples I can think of is Monica and Jane on Happy Endings and Cisco and his brother on Flash.

 

My real problem with the sisters is that there was no real "come to church" moment with them. They obviously had plenty of problems in the past yet none of them were addressed once the two got together. It basically came across as Laurel's mean to an obviously apologetic Sara until Oliver calls her out, then she stops being mean, the end.  No idea why they wrote it like that.

 

 

 

I still don't understand why the writers bothered with that 'Sara liked Oliver first' retcon. All it did was make Laurel look bad for no reason

 

I've been thinking about this forever, even stated my problem with the situation here. The only thing I can think of is that the writers didn't consider the Sara arc in season 1 so they had to throw in some quick edits to fix her character. By creating such a situation, it made Sara more sympathetic and in theory, gave Laurel more of an edge, thereby making her more complex.

 

 

she is the only "good guy" who doesn't accept responsibility for her actions

Half of the problem is on her, though if I'm being honest it actually fits with the narrative of her being a driven person that demands things go her way. The other half of the problem is that people let her get away with it. This show is littered with examples of this, I'll just highlight two.  In the first she calls up Felicity and demands her help tracking down a criminal and  other then a snide remark, Felicity provides it.  In the second, she wants to go out and fight and Diggs the military  person who should know better, lets her after she uses invokes his dead brother. Obviously, in both of these situations, the Laurel's attitude is a problem but that's a character flaw so I'm fine with it. I'm more bothered by people repeatedly letting her get away with this stuff. If people are  going to give her what she wants, then why should she change?

 

Where are all these examples of Laurel's selflessness?

 

Even though this example is pretty silly given what happened, I'd say when she tracked down that abuser, tried to get him to stop beating up his wife(?) and then had him arrested on something else later. There was no way that anybody but her was ever going to know that she did that.

[statsgirl]

It was Quentin who had the guy arrested later by looking up to see if there were any outstanding warrants against him. Laurel only looked him up because he was someone she thought she could legitimately beat up because hitting someone else made her feel better, it calmed the fire in her words. Classic addict behaviour, when taking the drug makes the pain stop.  (For ordinary people, hitting something else makes them more aggressive, not less.)

 

Given that the writers seem to love writing in clichés, it's not hard to see what they were going for with Sara being the favorite. The "type A" overbearing child who tries to be perfect for their parent against the laid back rebellious one? In these situations the writers almost always make the rebellious child the favorite.

[snip]

Obviously, in both of these situations, the Laurel's attitude is a problem but that's a character flaw so I'm fine with it. I'm more bothered by people repeatedly letting her get away with this stuff. If people are  going to give her what she wants, then why should she change?

From the flashbacks, I always got that Laurel was the favorite and sara was the screw-up. It's especially there in 2x13 when Quentin and Dinah are talking about Laurel going to law school and Sara drops in unexpectedly and the other three assume she's there because she got kicked out of school.  But it's also there in the way Laurel acts with other people, like she's special and they should adapt to her.  That's an attitude that comes with being the favored child, not the one who constantly feels she needs to prove herself as Sara did.

 

Why is it Felicity's responsibility to change Laurel's attitude at the age of 29?  She has zero influence over Laurel, in fact Sara's death was the first time Laurel said a positive word to her.  Diggle did relent when Laurel pulled the dead sibling card but what was he supposed to do? She was going to go out anyway and if she's with them, at least they can protect her.  Diggle doesn't want her on his conscience too if she goes out alone and gets killed.

 

The only people who had any influence over Laurel's behaviour were her parents and possibly Oliver (although the latter is debatable).  Not even Tommy, although Laurel said she loved him, and Quentin doesn't have any over her now.  For Felicity to refuse a simple request from Laurel would only have made cold situation worse.  Not even Oliver and Diggle could keep her from going out and getting herself hurt.

 

As much as I love parts of this show, the writing isn't always the best and it relies on the actors to make up that lack.  SA is amazing, he switches from pre-island Oliver to recently back Oliver to early island Oliver, to fighting-to-regain-his-humanity Oliver completely.   Early Laurel jumped from one extreme to the other and what was needed to keep the character consistent was the underlying feeling that she still cared for Oliver even when she was angry at  him and her conflict over Oliver and Tommy.  Without that, it doesn't make sense.

 

 

The stuff with Quentin and booze is hard to figure out.  He talks about addiction and their family like it has been a long running issue (his parents or siblings perhaps?) not a problem he faced when dealing with tragedy.  There have been hints that not everything was perfect in the Lance house before Sara's death, but I don't think it was miserable either.  It's just hard to figure out when Laurel became an enabler because she definitely has that in her a bit.

Addiction is genetic so Quentin's parents may have had a problem with it but it didn't touch Quentin until he fell into the bottle after Sara's death, the Dollmaker and Dinah leaving him, a lot of blows within a short time.  He may have thought he had skipped the curse.  But when he realized that Laurel was drinking and stealing his pain meds, he realized that it was in his genes after all.

 

I didn't see any hints that there were problems in the family before the Queen's Gambit sinking other than Quentin was opposed to Laurel dating Oliver (what parent wouldn't have been?) so I'm interested in what  you saw.  I see more someone who wants the good life in Laurel than an enabler, but that may be because I"m more familiar with narcissists than enablers.

 

That opening scene of Laurel turning off the TV that everyone else in the room was watching without a word seemed pure narcissism.  Of course she was upset, but another person would have left the room, not made everyone else adapt to what she wanted.

Edited April 11, 2015 by statsgirl

[Oscirus]

Why is it Felicity's responsibility to change Laurel's attitude at the age of 29? 

It's not on Felicity to change anything. It's also not on Felicity to be providing favors for people who aren't her friends.

 

Diggle did relent when Laurel pulled the dead sibling card but what was he supposed to do? She was going to go out anyway and if she's with them, at least they can protect her.  Diggle doesn't want her on his conscience too if she goes out alone and gets killed.

 

I'm pretty sure if Diggle told her that she could either do it their way or not at all that Laurel would've relented. Laurel might be crazy, but she isn't suicidal.

 

If you want to change a character's flaws, you use the reactions to them from other characters when they act according to said flaws.

[nksarmi]

I would really have to go back and watch some episodes to nail down my impression, but my initial thought of Dinah and Quentin was that Sara's death was the straw that broke the camel's back.  I mean yes Quentin is still very much in love with her even when we meet him five years later, but my impression of Dinah is that she wasn't nostalgic about hers and Quentin's past at all.  All of her longing seems to be attached to Sara, not the happy family they once had.  It's not anything that was stated flat out - its just a feeling or vibe I get when I see them altogether.

 

I guess the reason I see Laurel as an enabler is that 1) I'm not sure alcoholism comes on all at once like that in your 40's.  I can certainly see falling into the bottle for awhile in your grief, but that's alcohol abuse not addiction.  That type of situational abuse would make it seem like Quentin could get a prescription for anti-depressants and go through some grief counseling and overcome his issue - not need AA meetings for the rest of his life.  To me, that implies that either he had issues before OR he was the child of addicts who as you said finally gave into it himself.  Either way, his issues were clearly passed on to Laurel in some fashion.

 

2) Laurel tolerates Oliver's cheating while pretending that there is real love between them.  She is so sold on this illusion that when he comes back, she falls for it again.  By that point in her life, she had earned a good life for herself and was watching Tommy do the same.  She and Tommy could have had a great life together - I can't see her giving that up for "gold digging" reasons even if he had been cut off by his dad.  It seems to me Laurel's interactions with Oliver and her tolerance of his mistreatment of her is about more than "wanting the good life."

 

3) This hasn't been stated flat out either, but I always had the impression that whatever dynamic was going on between Laurel and Oliver pre-island, some part of it was always him getting in trouble and her working with his mom to get him out of it.  I think Quentin's dislike for Oliver was about more than him being a rich kid who didn't always play by the rules, but that Laurel probably was always picking him up, forgiving him, maybe even vouching for him to keep him out of trouble, etc...

 

I wonder if Dinah always considered Quentin a "fixer up" project and Laurel followed the same pattern with Oliver?