Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[apinknightmare]

And Laurel, a liar, lectures Oliver about being a liar.

[KirkB]

I still say things would have worked so much better if they had never invented Sara and just had Laurel on the boat with Oliver. 

[kismet]

And Laurel, a liar, lectures Oliver about being a liar.

True the lying was a little kettle calling the kettle black, but I actually felt that scene was a little more redemptive for LL. It felt like her question was more meta than just about the Thea lie. I think she was truly asking it more from a how could you lie to me so easily about so much for so long? I think she is trying to figure herself out. I mean OQ lied to her repetitively during their relationship and she either accepted it or didn't realize the extent of it. Perhaps, this is the first time she is seeing him clearly and really trying to understand why/how it is so easy for him to lie to her. It felt like she was trying gain some agency back after the years of lies.

[apinknightmare]

Oh, I agree, I just was replying to the previous poster's assertion that Oliver was the only hypocrite between the two of them. Oliver definitely needed to be called out by her for the way that he's treated her, no doubt. I was glad that she did it.

[catrox14]

True the lying was a little kettle calling the kettle black, but I actually felt that scene was a little more redemptive for LL. It felt like her question was more meta than just about the Thea lie. I think she was truly asking it more from a how could you lie to me so easily about so much for so long? I think she is trying to figure herself out. I mean OQ lied to her repetitively during their relationship and she either accepted it or didn't realize the extent of it. Perhaps, this is the first time she is seeing him clearly and really trying to understand why/how it is so easy for him to lie to her. It felt like she was trying gain some agency back after the years of lies.

 

I maintain that  Laurel still lacks self-awareness and I really don't think this was any kind of introspection.  She has been pissed off at Oliver forever unless she was in love with the Arrow of course.  But I think this was just more Laurel being Laurel

Edited February 27, 2015 by catrox14

[statsgirl]

I just listened to a very funny rant by comic Erica Kurtz on the models in Fashion Week all wearing black lipstick now.  Who knew Laurel Lance, ADA and vigilante, was also such a fashion trendsetter now?  (Katie Cassidy's 'passion for fashion' pays off.)

[Starfish35]

This post from Guggenheim's tumblr frustrated me: http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/112893986559/hi-marc-loving-the-show-my-question-is-what-is

Particularly this part, when asked what his favorite scene for Laurel was this season:

Laurel telling Diggle “that’s not how this is going to work” in 311

I mean, maybe it's because I just watched that episode a couple of nights ago and so it's fresh in my mind, but.....I don't even know how to take this! Was that supposed to be some sort of triumphant scene for Laurel? Because I sure didn't take it that way. I saw it as arrogance and stupidity that ended up getting a man killed. And that's his favorite scene for her? I don't even know what to think about that. :(

[Scribbles]

This post from Guggenheim's tumblr frustrated me: http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/112893986559/hi-marc-loving-the-show-my-question-is-what-is

Particularly this part, when asked what his favorite scene for Laurel was this season:

I mean, maybe it's because I just watched that episode a couple of nights ago and so it's fresh in my mind, but.....I don't even know how to take this! Was that supposed to be some sort of triumphant scene for Laurel? Because I sure didn't take it that way. I saw it as arrogance and stupidity that ended up getting a man killed. And that's his favorite scene for her? I don't even know what to think about that. :(

He tends to like the gotcha moments and spectacles.  Other times I have seen him like the in your face zippy stinger.

 

I always thought of the comic book Black Canary as a sassy broad from ages past.  She was like an atheletic Mae West who could pack a wallop and was built to be a knock out.  She could go toe to toe with Green Arrow verbally and in combat because she was a spitfire.  The Laurel Lance version on Arrow is something else.  I can't decide if they were trying to modernize her and bring her into age where Mae West is hardly appreciated in the same way or what.  Black Canary is suppose to be getting her own comic book line in whatever the new wave is.  I am actually curious to see what DC does with it.

[Sakura12]

Arrow's version of Black Canary is nowhere near being a master martial artist, she can't even go toe to toe with Cisco from the Flash. She's a Black Canary that took a month of boxing lessons then quit to take over sister's life by acting like Bam Bam from the Flintstones. 

[statsgirl]

I know Mae West and you, madam, are no Mae West.

 

I guess that's how he sees Laurel: rudeness = strength.

 

(Don't forget, his favorite Olicity moment was the big fight in 312.  He really doesn't see things the way I do.)

Edited March 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[KirkB]

Am I right in thinking the only person in the Arrowcave Laurel might be able to beat in a fight is Felicity?

[Scribbles]

I know Mae West and you, madam, are no Mae West.

 

I guess that's how he sees Laurel: rudeness = strength.

 

(Don't forget, his favorite Olicity moment was the big fight in 312.  He really doesn't see things the way I do.)

TY for getting what I was going after.  There is a line between quippy and biting and other traits that is easy to miss.

Am I right in thinking the only person in the Arrowcave Laurel might be able to beat in a fight is Felicity?

I actually think Felicity could take Laurel down.  Felcity sports some muscle.  However, the last thing I want to see is the two of them cat fight.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Am I right in thinking the only person in the Arrowcave Laurel might be able to beat in a fight is Felicity?

 

I'm not even sure about that, especially if they are in the Arrowcave. Felicity has shown in "The Brave and the Bold" that she knows how those arrows of Oliver's work (she used the exploding ones during the battle with Boomerang) and knows exactly where the weapons are. Don't forget, she also knows how to disarm somebody with a gun ;) I have a feeling Laurel would be cocky enough to shove a gun too close to someone.

Edited March 7, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[statsgirl]

On one hand, I appreciate that they don't want to have Laurel instantly a good fighter. On the other, it's just ridiculous that she's going out there expected to hold up her end of a fight.

 

MG just replied to a question about showing Felicity doing the salmon ladder (he asked if that were realistic) followed by someone asking to see Laurel doing the salmon ladder.

 

Looking at arm definition, I think Felicity has a better chance of it than Laurel does.

[Scribbles]

I have a feeling Laurel would be cocky enough to shove a gun to close to someone.

Flashing back to all the times Laurel has pulled a gun.  Did anyone else pick up on the gun pulling bit with Malcolm in 3-15 and think this could get interesting...then in pops Nyssa and ...

[SmallScreenDiva]

Flashing back to all the times Laurel has pulled a gun.  Did anyone else pick up on the gun pulling bit with Malcolm in 3-15 and think this could get interesting...then in pops Nyssa and ...

 

You know, I did kinda perk up when Laurel pulled that gun and I wondered how Malcolm would manage. He did tell Diggle guns only annoyed him so I'm guessing he has a way of dodging bullets? LOL! Or maybe he'd just use his smoke bomb and disappear.

[Starfish35]

I wondered why she wasted five minutes getting kicked around by him when she had the gun the whole time. *facepalm*

Oh, and while we're on the subject. Question: You're hit with a hallucinatory drug that causes you to believe you're seeing your beloved dead sister in front of you. Do you A) try to hug them, or B) attack them? Guess which one Laurel chose? But then, this is the same woman who threw a wine glass at her very-much-alive sister the first time she returned from the dead. So I guess it's par for the course.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Starfish35

[Scribbles]

I wondered why she wasted five minutes getting kicked around by him when she had the gun the whole time. *facepalm*

I have got to confess, I am glad she did spend the time.  The choreography of it was really great and showed how good at stage movement John Barrowman is.  I have watched the clip several times since just to watch his effortless (appearing) dance. it really is a piece of work that may never get recognized because of the context.

[statsgirl]

Oh, and while we're on the subject. Question: You're hit with a hallucinatory drug that causes you to believe you're seeing your beloved dead sister in front of you. Do you A) try to hug them, or B) attack them? Guess which one Laurel chose? But then, this is the same woman who threw a wine glass at her very-much-alive sister the first time she returned from the dead. So I guess it's par for the course.

It's all that anger inside her.

 

Which will promptly be forgotten at the end of the season.

[Carrie Ann]

I can totally see your points, and I think you have a lot of company in that department elsewhere in fandom. I think a lot of people are happy about the L/F friendship, and are satisfied with Laurel's development this season. So of course you're not wrong not to hate her! I wish I felt the same; I honestly do.

 

And it wasn't a journey that was stolen from Sara. Sara as Black Canary was just a part of Laurel's journey on her way to becoming THE Black Canary because it was *always* supposed to be Laurel. That's comic book canon.

 

I think the central problem with the way they've handled LL is all related to this point. If you removed the name, then this point falls apart, on the show that I am watching. You see what I mean? There was no IN-SHOW reason for Laurel to be the one who was always destined to be the Black Canary. There were very, very few indications that she had anything like that in her for the first two seasons. Whereas Sara had every indication. Had it been revealed that Sara's middle name was Dinah, and she could someday live as Dinah Lance, would that have changed people's perspectives about these two characters and their fitness to be the Black Canary? 

 

So, I won't belabor the point here, but when I look at THIS show, I do feel like her "journey" has been too fast and easy, and it does seem out of nowhere, to me, someone who doesn't care what her name is or what it means.

 

But this is where the show is going, so you know. All I can really hope is that after this season, LL doesn't receive any more special focus--no more than any non-Oliver character does. And that they take note of the fact that people prefer her when she's not ordering the rest of the characters around like they're her underlings.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Sakura12]

I didn't see anything that showed me that Sara was part of Laurel's journey. Laurel didn't even find out Sara was alive until episode 13, didn't know she was the Canary until episode 19. That left 4 episodes where she even knew what her sister was doing. I guess Sara's death was supposed to be showing that but that happened in season 3. Then they continue to show us that Laurel knows nothing about Sara and what she's been through or why she put on the costume and calling herself the Canary.  How is that showing Sara as part of Laurel's journey?

 

Sara was givin almost all of the comic BC's main traits including the biggest one being a master in martial arts. I've said it many times, if we wrote down the character descriptions and traits, excluding the names. Sara would be the one picked as the Black Canary from the comics. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Sakura12

[CabotCove]

Here were these two strong, beautiful, smart women realizing, verbalizing that it's not about the man... it's about themselves, about doing the right thing because it's what *they* believe in. How is that not amazingly beautiful? And such a strong portrayal of women and womanhood in all of its glorious awesomeness. And it takes two to tango and there were TWO awesome women up there on that screen. And it wasn't about Felicity making Laurel look awesome, or Laurel making Felicity look awesome. It was about Felicity putting into words how awesome Laurel is and by doing so, realizing how awesome she herself is, and in turn, Laurel realizing how awesome she herself is and how awesome Felicity is for seeing the truth of this whole situation because Felicity Smoak is more awesome than everybody else!

Beat me. And your whole post was a really good read. 

 

Anyhoo, just wanted to throw up some Laurel defense that's been percolating in my head for a while.  I know this is *slightly* (haha) unpopular in the opinion department.

 

 

Well this is her thread, what could be more at home than a defense. I didn't even like her last season, but the extreme hate  and bashing she gets is pushing me towards being an ally. And I genuinely think this season she is turning around, so why cant she deserve another chance. I respect those who don't like her and maybe never will, I really do but is it necessary to bash her in just about every thread on his forum and especially in her very own thread?. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Conell

[KirkB]

I don't hate Laurel...: Is that wrong?  I mean, admittedly, I didn't like her all that much last season because she was really, really annoying, but this season I'm feeling for her. And I think that the journey we're seeing with her on her way to becoming the Black Canary is getting really interesting. For the first time in the series, I find Laurel interesting.

 

 

No, ICGS, this is in no way wrong. You, and everyone who agrees with you, are absolutely entitled to your opinion on Laurel. In truth I can see where you're coming from. There actually is more about Laurel to like this season because at least she is doing something, where in the past she has been absent from episodes and it seemed to have little or no impact on the plot. And I'll also admit the comparisons to Sara, while kind of unavoidable, aren't really fair because they are two very different characters. Personally, I don't like Laurel and I think Sara was a better fit for the Black Canary but that's just me. I'm not so much bothered by Laurel in the mask though because I always knew it was coming. On the other hand, I have a big problem with the EP's deciding to have their new heroic Laurel lie to and manipulate her father, stringing him along for months before telling him the truth about Sara. That, to me, is a far larger issue than her copying Sara and Oliver and Roy and putting on a mask.

Edited March 12, 2015 by KirkB

[Starfish35]

There's nothing wrong about liking a character! Personally I will never like Laurel, but I will admit that, if played by a different actress, I might be more inclined to root for her this season than in times past.

I guess my personal opinion about the Laurel/Felicity scenes....while I'm usually all for female friendship, I have a problem with it for a couple of reasons, just off the top of my head.

1) Felicity's championing of Laurel doesn't feel genuine to me. It feels like the writers using her as a mouthpiece. Possibly that's because I, as a viewer, don't actually agree with her assessment of Laurel's motives, or with Diggle's defense of her for that matter.

2) Felicity tearing down Sara to encourage Laurel just felt plain mean spirited. The idea that Laurel has some special light that Sara didn't have and thus is more worthy somehow is offensive to me as a Sara fan, and I have a hard time with a scene that tears one woman down to build another up. If Felicity had simply encouraged Laurel to be herself, instead of bringing Sara's alleged deficiencies into it, I don't think I would have any issues with that scene, to be honest.

[wonderwall]

I honestly don't like the Laurel/Felicity friendship because it doesn't seem genuine. It's still very much a one sided friendship. Felicity offers Laurel support and advice and she sticks up for Laurel even to Oliver... But what does Laurel do for Felicity other than take? Idk I won't think of it as a real friendship until Laurel actually DOES something for Felicity or helps her or even tries to get to know her a little better. 

[dtissagirl]

And I'll also admit the comparisons to Sara, while kind of unavoidable, aren't really fair because they are two very different characters.

This is a sentiment I keep seeing, that it's unfair to compare the two, or that we shouldn't be comparing the two... And the way I see it, the text of the show is telling me to compare them every time Laurel suits up. The thing that separated them last season was that Laurel had a life outside of the mission. And now she doesn't.

Even the stunt shots are being framed and filmed the exact same way, only with having Laurel being fumbly, or less skilled. Maybe that's just because it's the same stunt woman, and they're lazy with the scene blocking, I don't know. But I think I wouldn't be comparing the two of them if the show hadn't put Laurel in Sara's clothes, doing the same thing Sara was doing last season.

[Sakura12]

To me it's again showing Laurel taking what Sara and Felicity had without doing any work. They showed Sara noticing that Felicity was upset, showed Sara giving fighting stance help, and showed Sara protecting Felicity and Felicity protecting Sara. I actually think they've showed Felicity caring about Sara's death more then her own sister. They showed a respect and friendship developing that was mutually beneficial to both characters. 

 

With Laurel all it seems like Felicity is doing is propping Laurel up and making her feel better about herself. What has Laurel done for Felicity? Suddenly treating someone better than the help, does not a friendship make. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Sakura12

[wonderwall]

And I'll also admit the comparisons to Sara, while kind of unavoidable, aren't really fair because they are two very different characters.

 

The writers sort of asked for this comparison with the whole Laurel wanting to become her sister thing... 

[Sakura12]

I would really like to know how Sara was involved with Laurel's journey toward BC, besides her dying?

[apinknightmare]

The writers sort of asked for this comparison with the whole Laurel wanting to become her sister thing...

Yeah. I think they could've avoided most comparisons by keeping Sara alive and having her be unwilling/unable to carry on being a vigilante in SC. It doesn't help that Laurel's reasoning for putting on the mask is shaky (is it because it makes the pain go away? Or because she wants to honor Sara? One's more noble than the other, but she's mentioned both so IDK).

I don't mind the possibility of a Laurel/Felicity friendship at all. I like the idea of it theoretically speaking but like many things this season it's all too fast and not given its due. And it is very one-sided to Laurel's benefit thus far. Maybe if we'd seen more of them together prior to this season it would be better? I don't know. I didn't think Laurel was particularly dismissive of her the first time they met (seemed like a run-of-the-mill 'I don't know this girl' kind of scenario to me), especially given Oliver's past with women. But their interactions in S2 left a lot to be desired.

And for me, I think her introduction as BC would've gone better if her attitude had somewhat matched her skill level. She's had a very delusional level of self-confidence regarding this whole thing, which I guess is somewhat needed in order to go out there and get your ass handed to you on a fairly regular basis, and I could kind of admire that about her if she admitted that maybe she was a bit out of her element and it stuck and made her seek out help to get better. The couple of times she's admitted that she might not know what she's doing have been to Felicity, who immediately talked her out of that (why, I don't know - seems like she'd be the type to say, "yes, you don't know what you're doing. But I admire your drive and let's see about getting you some help so you don't get yourself killed?"), and she's been very curt and cocky in her interactions with people who ARE experienced (like when she told Digg "that's not how this is going to work," and made that smartass comment about whether her form was off when Oliver was watching that video of her punching Vertigo 2.0). Again, that's the kind of attitude that can get you through adversity when everyone around you is telling you not to do something you believe in, but we're missing the other side of it, some vulnerability that we get to see that can make the audience relate to and root for her that are more than just one-offs that are solved by a quick pep talk. But we're never going to get that on this show, so it is what it is, I suppose.

[KirkB]

Which is why I said kind of unavoidable. I don't think the EP's want people comparing Laurel to Sara, they want them praising Laurel. But they're going to compare the two because Sara came first. That's why I have been saying all along that if they wanted Laurel to be the BC they never should have introduced Sara as her first. Unless you hated Sara, in which case almost anyone in the suit would be better, there is really no way for Laurel to compete. Either Laurel should have been on the boat with Oliver so she was the one found by the LoA, or else since Oliver and Sara disappeared Laurel should have gotten into police work/martial arts/whatever so at the very least the foundation would be in place for her to become a kick ass fighter. 

 

I hate Laurel now, but I respect anyone who feels differently. The whole point of boards like this is to share opinions, some of which are going to be different and that should be celebrated. But my problems with the character have little to do with her wearing the costume and more to do with the way she treats other people, especially her father. That's partially on KC but mostly on the writers and the directors because they're the ones who put the words in her mouth and tell her how to say them.

Edited March 12, 2015 by KirkB

[wonderwall]

Which is why I said kind of unavoidable.

 

My apologies, I thought you meant that it would always be unavoidable because people liked Sara more? IDK

[Chaser]

I can see why some fans are more receptive to her character this year. She is involved in the A-plot, she has an action role and she is interacting with all the other players. So I get it. 

 

I was reading thru the previous posts and I realized that a large part of the problem isn't so much Laurel but the other characters around her. Here is what I mean by that: Laurel is hot-headed, she is take charge and reckless. A character like that can be fun if they have the right offset. Interestingly, they have that on Arrow. They have Felicity and Diggle. But instead of taking advantage of that contrast and use it to deepen the characters they went the opposite way and keep Laurel in charge and reckless, but let Felicity and Diggle just roll with it. Diggle should have lead the combat aspect, not Roy and Laurel. Laurel should have referred to his lead in the field. Yes, it would have highlighted her lack of any experience but it would have shown growth on her side. Inside, she stomped her foot and Diggle went with it. Laurel found out in 2x20 about Team Arrow. But she didn't have any meaningful interaction with Felicity until 3x11/13. Prior to that, their interactions consisted of Laurel giving orders (3x02) and calling her up for a favor (the fact that Felicity didn't even know if they were friends after Laurel has been working with the Team since Slade is telling). She hardly acknowledged them when she in the Foundry, she was focused on Oliver. So 3x11/13 comes along and Felicity being Laurel's cheerleader doesn't ring true. Felicity watches Laurel get her ass handed to her and make a mistake that cost a life and instead of giving Laurel some logic, she encourages her. That doesn't make sense. Ignoring the awful line, does she really know Laurel enough to give her a pep talk about her strength?

[statsgirl]

It was about Felicity putting into words how awesome Laurel is and by doing so, realizing how awesome she herself is, and in turn, Laurel realizing how awesome she herself is and how awesome Felicity is for seeing the truth of this whole situation

I think you see their relationship the way the EPs want the audience to. 

 

Look we pass the Bechdel test, the writers say.  Not for me.  Felicity telling Laurel how awesome she is doesn't make Felicity awesome, it makes her kind of stupid because while Laurel has good intentions, she shouldn't be out there with sub-par fighting skills, possibly the other members of Team Arrow into danger.

 

For me, as others have said, it's still too one-sided.  In 3x03, Laurel was still giving Felicity orders as if she were paid help.  Then in 3x11 and 3x13, Laurel needs someone to tell her how wonderful she is,  and Felicity gets to be the one to do it because Diggle and Roy have already had their turns.

 

Even in 3x15, Laurel pushed Felicity aside when she was talking to Oliver because Laurel wanted to yell at him herself.  Laurel has said one nice thing to Felicity (that Oliver has returned from the dead before) and hugged her when Felicity told her she was awesome.  In terms of their relationship, the writing went from A to S without hitting the letters in between.

 

I think Thea makes a more natural friend to Laurel than Felicity does. Similar backgrounds, similar attitudes, similar ego-strengths.  It's going to take a lot of good writing to make me believe in that Laurel and Felicity have a true friendship.

Edited March 13, 2015 by statsgirl

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's remember, it's okay for someone to have a different opinion then you about Laurel.

[Delphi]

Honestly I think a Laureland Thea relationship makes more sense because it's already been shown. They've had interactions together and are both newcomers, I'd love to watch that.

Felicity and Laurel aren't there yet. They should ease into that and give Thea more scenes with laurel.

Eta: I actually enjoy laurel the character when she's not being forced at me. She makes a good foil, potential friend. Her in the mask is what grinds me. Hell I even enjoyed her junkie phase. These writers just can't set things up properly.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Delphi

[kismet]

I will never understand the writers love-hate relationship with LL. It seems like they want us to love her, but then they just make her do awful things, say awful things or have awful things happen to her... For 3 seasons now, they have stomped all over her character. For example,

 

Sara - Of course we are gonna compare her the canary that came before, there is no way to avoid it. If you don't want us to remember the other canary then they should have never had killed her, but instead maybe have her as a mentor for awhile, and then if you must kill her for reasons then do it after you have shown them have this special connection beyond just a few min convo in the season premiere. Also, if their masterplan was always to make LL the BC, then they never should have cast a talented & trained martial artists as the first canary. They should have just cast some randomly talented actress. But its just not fair to KC that she is compared to CL, and that is a casting issue.

 

Quentin - Why or why did they ever feel the need to introduce the whole lying about Sara's death. Tarnished her journey to hero. Ruined her relationship. Provided no welcome or understandable drama/angst. I mean for an episode of two I got it, but then it was time to just tell your father whom you were supposed to so close to that your sister died a tragic death. Grieving together would have done wonders for her character, it would have taken away some of that self-absorption that seems to plague her.

 

Felicity - Do I buy their friendship yet? No. Do I think it might be plausible in the future, yes. Would it be nice to have actual Bechel test worthy convos on Arrow absolutely. Have they had good moments, yes. I still love that moment of caring the LL showed FS in Left Behind when she said OQ would be back. Loved that FS returned the favor by supporting LL after she nearly ODed on Vertigo. But again why oh why did the writers have FS thrown Sara under the bus to help explain LL's light. It just seemed unnecessary. Say LL has a light, but there is no need to somehow diminish SL to do it. If you don't want us to compare the canaries, stop literally comparing them to us both verbally & visually on the show.

 

I know that LL is strong & intelligent, seems to be able to handle adversity well. But could the writers stop for just a moment and try to make her more relatable or personable? She is either written as too perfect or too flawed. There is never a balance for her. She needs to show a little bit of vulnerability, I realize that after what has happened to her she has chosen to build up walls & approach situations w/ force not necessarily tact (which is odd considering she is a trained lawyer). But for they have done to her, it would be nice to see her show that she is human too once and awhile. I also feel her character (up until FS in s3) has been used the most to drive plot and not to build her story. Even her great arc to costume hero was not about her, but rather Brick. Im not saying I need weeks & weeks devoted to her. But it seems like she never gets her own plot, barely gets integrated into the main plot. And then when they do write her in, she usually seems demanding, self-absorbed and tbh a little bitchy. Its just a shame, because there is potential there and they seem to squander it week after week. I wish they would also draw more from what I read about the comic BC because it seems that she would be a good presence on the show, give LL a cause like she had in S1 when she stood up for the innocent and helped legally take down bad guys. Even if she goes out at night to protect people, she still can have her niche fighting mode.

[Menrva]

I don't hate Laurel...: Is that wrong?  I mean, admittedly, I didn't like her all that much last season because she was really, really annoying, but this season I'm feeling for her. And I think that the journey we're seeing with her on her way to becoming the Black Canary is getting really interesting. For the first time in the series, I find Laurel interesting.

 

And in the last three or four episodes, I've finally begun to see her and Felicity begin to develop a connection which is awesome. For so long, it seemed that Laurel just saw Felicity as kinda Olivier's tech girl/secretary and Laurel treated her that way too. Which was, yeah, annoying, but lately, there's been this change in that treatment. The scene between the two when Felicity was the only who really got what Laurel was doing, what she was feeling and was able to articulate it... something that not even Laurel was able to do was a truly beautiful scene. It made me tear up.

 

Here were these two strong, beautiful, smart women realizing, verbalizing that it's not about the man... it's about themselves, about doing the right thing because it's what *they* believe in. How is that not amazingly beautiful? And such a strong portrayal of women and womanhood in all of its glorious awesomeness. And it takes two to tango and there were TWO awesome women up there on that screen. And it wasn't about Felicity making Laurel look awesome, or Laurel making Felicity look awesome. It was about Felicity putting into words how awesome Laurel is and by doing so, realizing how awesome she herself is, and in turn, Laurel realizing how awesome she herself is and how awesome Felicity is for seeing the truth of this whole situation because Felicity Smoak is more awesome than everybody else!

 

So, no, I don't hate Laurel. And I don't think that this Black Canary storyline is being rushed. Laurel has been training. And Laurel regularly gets her ass kicked. A lot. And gets a lot of bruises and is in pain. A lot. And she gets a buttload of crap from everyone... except who? Oh, right... FELICITY! The awesome! Roy and Diggle gave her crap to start with. Oliver is only now NOT giving her crap. Her dad is (so understandably) giving her crap. So, this is not some cakewalk* for Laurel. This is a tough--physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically--journey for her.

 

* Has anyone here ever done a cakewalk? They are tremendously fun and, yes, very easy!

 

And it wasn't a journey that was stolen from Sara. Sara as Black Canary was just a part of Laurel's journey on her way to becoming THE Black Canary because it was *always* supposed to be Laurel. That's comic book canon.

 

Anyhoo, just wanted to throw up some Laurel defense that's been percolating in my head for a while.  I know this is *slightly* (haha) unpopular in the opinion department.

I wanted to respond to your post also; first, to apologize to you and others who are Laurel fans, because being around this forum has to be pretty difficult at times, seeing her being torn down again and again. I won't apologize for my own (admittedly negative) opinion of her, but you should never feel like you have to apologize for liking her. I'm sorry if my own comments have made you feel bad. I also wanted to say that I really, really wish I could see Laurel the way you do; I think I'd be bitching less if I did. I'm glad that you're enjoying her story now.

 

I do have issues with Laurel and I don't think they're likely to go away for me. Partially, it stems from fundamental problems right from the start. Why make Laurel an attorney? (Oh, right, Rachel Dawes…) Why the sister-swapping? It just takes away Laurel's dignity. But these issues have been covered at length…

 

I feel that the writers may have missed a really good opportunity to tell a compelling story for Laurel and tie it into her addiction storyline from last season. Kismet made a really great post a while back about how Arrow could be exploring the psychological tolls of vigilantism (can't seem to remember which thread it was in, sorry). I see Laurel as exhibiting traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder as well as an addictive personality. To me, she has simply swapped her addiction to pills and alcohol for thrill-seeking and the adrenaline rush from assaulting people. She isn't avenging her sister's death; she likes how she feels when she is beating people up. And Laurel can justify the assaults because she is attacking criminals; they are breaking the law, so they deserve what they get. I see her in denial about her frustrations in life, how nothing has turned out the way she planned. Perhaps if they show Laurel's struggle to reconcile her day job with her night time activities and how it is slowly overtaking her life? I could be persuaded to not fast forward her scenes. It just seems like there are never any repercussions for Laurel, and I'm not talking about her getting beat up (it's getting kind of tiresome now - ok, she's BC, she paid her dues, so now she's awesome and whatever); whereas Oliver seems to disproportionately take the blame for problems that he didn't even cause (see Malcolm Merlyn). 

 

I also can't agree with Laurel's comic destiny; there have been too many things on Arrow that either never existed in the comics or have been substantially altered. I see no reason why Laurel had to become BC other than the EPs wanted it; I don't see KC as a compelling actress of any skill and the writing has done her no favors. However, since the powers that be don't seem to care, I have no control over that. So my choices are to deal with it or stop watching. Bummer.

 

Again, this is all my opinion. Glad you could share your point of view with us - I really do appreciate seeing another side to things! I hope I don't seem too contradictory here.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Menrva

[BkWurm1]

Has anyone here ever done a cakewalk? They are tremendously fun and, yes, very easy!

 

I was especially lucky at cakewalks.  Never entered one that I didn't win and just to keep that record I stopped entering them after grade school.  Do they even do cakewalks anymore?  Lol. 

 

One thing I have appreciated this year about Laurel is they've stopped trying to convince me she isn't sharp tongued or perfect.  I think when the messages would come so mixed it really upped my issues with Laurel.  They're letting her own her more abrasive side this season and I can respect and appreciate that far more now then when I still saw it but the dialogue about her actions coming from different people tried to tell me a different story. 

[wonderwall]

I've been seeing a lot of pro laurel people saying that Laurel had been treated really poorly as a kid because Dinah and Quentin always thought of Sara as the golden child and they clearly preferred her... If I'm not mistaken, I thought it was the other way around? I thought Laurel was the golden child who was headed off to law school and off doing great things and that Dinah and Quentin always loved her more? At least that's what I got from Sara's flashbacks? 

 

Am I missing something?

[statsgirl]

No. That's what I got from the flashbacks too, and from Sara's lines in the present where she always referred to herself either as a screw-up or a bad person.  Not to mention, if Sara were the golden child, would Laurel really be throwing glasses of wine and having a hissy fit? That's something the Golden Child does.

 

I'm also reading a lot about how Quentin was so awful to Laurel and how good she is to him.  This makes is even harder to feel sorry for Laurel. She was 22 and had already moved out of home when Quentin started drinking. In contrast, Thea was 12 when he father and brother died and her mother shut herself off from everyone.  Big difference, imo.

[Delphi]

I think Sara was probably put on a pedestal after the gambit went down and that might have hindered laurel but they seemed to love the girls equally in flashbacks.

[wonderwall]

I think Sara was probably put on a pedestal after the gambit went down and that might have hindered laurel but they seemed to love the girls equally in flashbacks.

 

That's what I thought... I feel like people are making things up just to support Laurel which I don't get imo. Like that and how Laurel was afraid that Quentin will relapse which is why she didn't tell him... And then they bring up how it's wrong that Quentin didn't tell Laurel that Sara was alive even though if it were his choice, he would've told Laurel... I mean I just don't think they can accept that what Laurel did was wrong. Which it was. 

[Menrva]

I've been seeing a lot of pro laurel people saying that Laurel had been treated really poorly as a kid because Dinah and Quentin always thought of Sara as the golden child and they clearly preferred her... If I'm not mistaken, I thought it was the other way around? I thought Laurel was the golden child who was headed off to law school and off doing great things and that Dinah and Quentin always loved her more? At least that's what I got from Sara's flashbacks? 

 

Am I missing something?

Perhaps it seemed that Sara got a lot of extra leeway because she was a "screwup"? That expectations were lowered for Sara, because she didn't excel in school or adhere to social norms the way Laurel did? I could see how that could build up some resentments. 

[Chaser]

I never got the impression that they loved one child more then the other. They looked like a happy family in the flashbacks. The responsible older child with the big plans and the fun loving younger sister who was a little wayward.

 

I agree that they probably looked at Sara thru rose colored glasses after she died, but not to a crazy extent. I think that KC gave an interview where she said Laurel was responsible for her father because her mother left them.

[kismet]

I've been seeing a lot of pro laurel people saying that Laurel had been treated really poorly as a kid because Dinah and Quentin always thought of Sara as the golden child and they clearly preferred her... If I'm not mistaken, I thought it was the other way around? I thought Laurel was the golden child who was headed off to law school and off doing great things and that Dinah and Quentin always loved her more? At least that's what I got from Sara's flashbacks? 

 

Am I missing something?

Depends on the season & the plot requirements. In S1 it seemed that Lance sisters were treated neutrally (no favs) but Sara did get a little more attention because she started to get in trouble. So it seemed less of a golden child scenario & just more that Sara might have needed more watching over. They also have made comparisions that Sara was more of a freebird like her mother, where LL was more steady like her father. Then after Sara's tragic death the family felt apart, so who knows how that broke down in Laurel's psyche, but she was in her 20s already so its not really part of her childhood. But finding out your sister was sleeping with your boyfriend whom you wanted to marry is traumatic enough, nevermind coping with their young/tragic deaths. So it must be quite the emotional double whammy of betrayal & hurt, complicated grief probably doesn't even cover it. In S2, when they wanted Sara to be with Oliver they seemed to make SL seem more like a golden child who got everything & LL more the one who had to take what she wanted because it was never given to her. This retcon I feel was done solely for plot purposes, which was dumb. I feel like in my headcanon, S1 seems more on point with all the characters, where both sisters were equally loved & no golden children. S2 seemed to be an anomaly where to make LL fall down the dark path, they seemed to have to retcon everything (or at least a good portion) of what they had set up in s1 become irrelevant. In s3, I don't quite know what they really want since it seems they have been writing to plot. I mean the Laurel we knew in S1 and parts of s2 would never have intentionally lied/hurt her father for as long as she did in S3. I keep on wishing the writers would forget about Laurel for a little bit, not because I want her gone but it seems whenever they get it in their head to write for a character they seem to make them worse (Felicity is a great example of that this season). Its like overwatering a plant, they think they're making it better but instead they are killing it.

Edited March 19, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

In S2, when they wanted Sara to be with Oliver they seemed to make SL seem more like a golden child who got everything & LL more the one who had to take what she wanted because it was never given to her. This retcon I feel was done solely for plot purposes, which was dumb.

 

I didn't get that vibe.  What made you feel like Sara was the golden child in season 2?  I remember they did some retconning to make Sara running off with Oliver less awful, with Sara having feelings and Laurel having deliberately kept Sara away so she could get Oliver instead, but otherwise I only remember flashbacks of Laurel getting lots of praise and sympathy. 

 

Lance and Sara had an incredibly moving connection between them but then, she was the child back from the dead, why wouldn't you celebrate her just a little bit more in the moment? 

 

What stood out to you in season two that painted Sara as more of the golden child?

[kismet]

I didn't get that vibe.  What made you feel like Sara was the golden child in season 2?  I remember they did some retconning to make Sara running off with Oliver less awful, with Sara having feelings and Laurel having deliberately kept Sara away so she could get Oliver instead, but otherwise I only remember flashbacks of Laurel getting lots of praise and sympathy. 

 

Lance and Sara had an incredibly moving connection between them but then, she was the child back from the dead, why wouldn't you celebrate her just a little bit more in the moment? 

 

What stood out to you in season two that painted Sara as more of the golden child?

The Lances seem to be a relatively normal family. And like I said earlier, I really think the parental characters never had any golden children. They loved them equally & recognized their separate strengths/weaknesses. Family is family, does drama occur in family absolutely and I feel that most of the sisterly drama that was shown was relatively run of the mill (minus OQ) sibling rivalry stuff. TBH a lot of s2 is a blur especially when it comes to specifics about the Lances, a lot of the interactions blended together. But that episode where they retconned the origin of who saw/wanted OQ first I think had the most moments of SL looking better than LL. There were just dumb writing choices that popped in my head when I was anwering your question earlier. IMO it was unnecessary to the central plot, story or characterizations. Which is why retconning can be so frustrating at times. The story stood on its own. OQ clearly wanted to be with both of them & they both chose him over their sister, so it is what it is. I have no idea why they needed to have the missed party & the sisterly scheming. Its like the light comment where they threw Sara under the bus to make Laurel seem better that she had more light. They intertwined their hero stories so closely, that the only way the writers seem to be able to sell their points is to make one of the sisters take something from the other. Which is just utter ridiculousness & poor writing. There is a balance which is what they seem to forget when it comes to the Lances. Sara & Laurel are 2 different distinct personalities that shared a common history but had become their own people with their own journeys & baggage. Somehow the writers seem to forget this at times.

 

As for the celebrating daughters. I LOVE the way QL loves his daughters so I would never be upset about him ever overcelebrating his daughters. Frankly, I think he is underused in his role and should be used more as a father figure. If any of my loved ones came back from the dead, I would be beyond the moon happy and I don't think that takes away from my other loved ones. That is what hurt so much this season that the writers & LL chose to willingly hurt her father you know for "reasons". It was just so disappointing how long & far they went with the deception, to include both her mother & TA was just way over the line.

Edited March 19, 2015 by kismet

[icandigit]

So. I have to know. Is Laurel really supposed to be crazy? That's the only way her actions make any sense. How do you not realize you need training. And if this is really something you really want to do. Why aren't you training right now instead of talking. I should see you like Oliver, Diggle and Sara doing something to towards saying sharp. Yet, we have Thea who is kickass and isn't even thinking about it. I don't understand.

[Sakura12]

Laurel's rise to BC is just making her look more and more stupid, not heroic. Without training she shouldn't even be out in the field at all. 

 

I'd respect her more if they showed her working her butt off to get the training, then go out as back up to the trained heroes, then eventually become a hero. The way they've gone about rushing it makes her look like an idiot.