Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Sakura12]

I think the issue with Lotz was, she pretty much took her role as the hero and KC couldn't hide her jealousy. Which is why I got the impression Laurel was jealous of Sara from KC's "acting". 

[Starfish35]

I actually think she does fine with Lotz - some of their scenes toward the end of the season felt more genuine to me than most of her other scenes. But I agree about the rest, especially what you say about Donnell and Blackthorne.

[NumberCruncher]

I actually think she does fine with Lotz - some of their scenes toward the end of the season felt more genuine to me than most of her other scenes. But I agree about the rest, especially what you say about Donnell and Blackthorne.

Agreed. I thought the scene when Sara tells Laurel that her LOA name means "canary" was very well done by both Caity and Katie. Unfortunately that was trampled on by the awkward I'm-grinning-like-a-hyena-even-though-you-sold-your-freedom-back-to-cold-blooded-killers jacket scene in the finale. People already know my feelings about how much more engaging Laurel was around Tommy so I won't repeat myself. I don't think KC is a bad actress and I don't even hate Laurel (it's more of an indifference) but she just seems miscast for the type of character she was hired to play. The writers haven't given her great material but a lot of her acting choices came off as odd--especially during the alcoholism storyline.

[Starfish35]

Agreed. I thought the scene when Sara tells Laurel that her LOA name means "canary" was very well done by both Caity and Katie. Unfortunately that was trampled on by the awkward I'm-grinning-like-a-hyena-even-though-you-sold-your-freedom-back-to-cold-blooded-killers jacket scene in the finale.

Agreed, unfortunately. That scene was so bad.

I don't think KC is a bad actress and I don't even hate Laurel (it's more of an indifference) but she just seems miscast for the type of character she was hired to play. The writers haven't given her great material but a lot of her acting choices came off as odd--especially during the alcoholism storyline.

While I don't have much to judge KC on other than this show, I agree that her acting choices have been odd (and that she was miscast). Over in the Bitterness thread, they've been talking about not being about to understand Laurel as a character. For me, I think my biggest problem with Laurel is that unlike all the other characters on the show, most of the time I haven't been able to see Laurel as an actual real character. I don't mean that in the creepy "I can't separate fiction from reality" way - just that most of the time, when I'm watching an actor onscreen, I'm thinking about them as the character they're playing. For example, when I see SA in an episode of Arrow, I'm thinking about "Oliver", not Stephen Amell. But when I look at Laurel onscreen, I don't see "Laurel", I see Katie Cassidy acting. Most of the time, I can't even get down to discussing Laurel as a character like I would Oliver or Sara or Felicity because she's not real to me in the way they are. She's just a collection of bad acting and bad writing. That probably doesn't even make sense, but I don't know how else to explain it. :(

Edited August 6, 2014 by Starfish35

[Starfish35]

Replying to Laurel discussion from spoiler thread:

Well, that's the thing. What is her motivation here? Short of Sara dying, why would she even want to be like Sara? She's apparently a successful attorney who loves her job - why would she want her little sister's life? And even if Sara died, at this point it's still a stretch.

They've missed two opportunities here, the way I look at it. The first was in setting up the character background in the first place. Instead of making her a cop, ex-military, bounty hunter, something that was already a more physically challenging job and that would give her reason to have the skills and training already, they set her up as a prim and proper Rachel Dawes-lite. And then, at the end of season one, with Tommy's death and the destruction of CNRI, they had an opportunity to partially fix it. Taking away her job and her (ex) boyfriend might have provided the perfect opportunity for her to start working outside the law, taking matters into her own hands. It wouldn't have fixed the part about her being so far behind Oliver training wise, but it would have been a start. But no, they botched that too. They put her in the DA's office and gave her an agenda against the Hood that might have been interesting except it lasted about two seconds (and got her nowhere nearer becoming BC), and then they gave her an addiction arc that lasted about two minutes and was not interesting in the least, and then they made her all better and better off than ever, all the while giving almost all the Black Canary stuff except the name to Sara. So now at the end of season two/beginning of season three, not only is she in a place where she's seemingly less likely to become Black Canary than she was a year ago, she's also in the position of taking the role away from a popular fan favorite, and no seeming motivation within the show itself to want to do so. I just don't get it. The

am I my sister? bit makes no sense, because why would she want to be like Sara? At all?

Edited August 6, 2014 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

I think a case can be made for Laurel being jealous of her younger sister.  In addition, I think one of the problems with Laurel has always been that Katie Cassidy the person bleeds in to Laurel the character.

 

At the end of s2, we saw that unlike in the pre-island flashbacks, Sara is now focused, driven and self-assured.  Maybe Laurel envies her that assurance and wonders if she could have it too

if she became more like Sara.  Or maybe it's just an excuse to put her working out in a gym and have a non-Oliver love interest.

 

[SilverLake0315]

Agreed, unfortunately. That scene was so bad.

While I don't have much to judge KC on other than this show, I agree that her acting choices have been odd (and that she was miscast). Over in the Bitterness thread, they've been talking about not being about to understand Laurel as a character. For me, I think my biggest problem with Laurel is that unlike all the other characters on the show, most of the time I haven't been able to see Laurel as an actual real character. I don't mean that in the creepy "I can't separate fiction from reality" way - just that most of the time, when I'm watching an actor onscreen, I'm thinking about them as the character they're playing. For example, when I see SA in an episode of Arrow, I'm thinking about "Oliver", not Stephen Amell. But when I look at Laurel onscreen, I don't see "Laurel", I see Katie Cassidy acting. Most of the time, I can't even get down to discussing Laurel as a character like I would Oliver or Sara or Felicity because she's not real to me in the way they are. She's just a collection of bad acting and bad writing. That probably doesn't even make sense, but I don't know how else to explain it. :(

 

It makes complete sense to me because I feel the EXACT same way.  I always feel like I'm watching Katie "act".

[TanyaKay]

and boy does she act or over act. Everything is just so over the top! Take the scene from season 2 finale where both Felicity and Laurel were abducted. Even though Felicity had a Katana next to her neck, Emily was portraying Felicity's fear through her facial expressions. What did Katie do, unnecessary and over the top struggle and then a couple of punches to the goon AFTER black canary shot him with the cure.

I wanted to bang my head on something solid, thank god they moved onto Slade/Oliver fight quickly and I didn't have to linger on Katie Cassidy's acting master class.

Edited August 7, 2014 by TanyaKay

[KirkB]

The whole am I me or am I my sister thing comes so close to actually making me have to think enough about Laurel to potentially get bothered by it that I am adapting my own personal head canon to say she is being literal because she has received brain trauma and actually cannot remember if she is Laurel or Sara.

Edited August 6, 2014 by KirkB

[Starfish35]

Ahahaha I cannot stop laughing right now. Thanks for that KirkB.

[Angel12d]

I've been thinking a lot about Laurel as a character because whether we like it or not, she probably will become BC and I am having a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around that idea so I just wanted to pace it out.

 

So say she meets

Ted Grant

and they have a connection or whatever and they flirt and he suggests play fighting which gets her in the ring and she's better than he thought. Say he starts to train her, for fun at first and to keep seeing each other. Then what? I can't see how Laurel goes from learning some self defence moves to wanting to become a vigilante. The path is too unclear. There's no reasoning behind it, no method. I don't understand. 

 

I can see why she's helping Oliver while she's in the DA's office because that's what she does. She helps put the bad guys in jail. That I understand. But I can't make the logical jump from that to BC. Someone help me understand because this is really annoying me.

[NumberCruncher]

My theory is Sara will sacrifice her life for Laurel's in order to protect her and Laurel will feel indebted and that will be the catalyst for her transition into BC. At the end of the day I don't see how Sara and Laurel can both be the Canary--it's too crowded.

[Sakura12]

If they do that I will probably hate Laurel even more. No one else should have to be sacrificed so Laurel can have a purpose on this show. 

[Angel12d]

See, I thought the same thing before. The only way Laurel would ever have a 'believable' motivation for becoming BC is if Sara dies. Then someone pointed out to me here that they could have done that when Tommy died, which is also true. So why did they wait? Why waste a whole season building Sara as a believable and better BC with a solid justifiable backstory when you intend to make someone else BC? It doesn't add up. I also don't like the idea of killing off Sara just so Laurel has a reason for existing. That really sucks. I really don't know how they're gonna do it and I'm concerned that whatever they attempt to do will just feel so forced.

[NumberCruncher]

If they do that I will probably hate Laurel even more. No one else should have to be sacrificed so Laurel can have a purpose on this show.

Well that's basically Oliver's story though. Didn't Robert Queen tell Oliver to survive so he could "right his wrongs" and then sacrifice himself in order to ensure Oliver lived? Also, that's a bit like what happened with Tommy. Oliver needed to be better than just a "murderer" and Tommy's death was a way to do that--a way to "honor his memory". In fact, Moira essentially sacrificed herself to Slade for Oliver (and Thea) too. This show is not above using death as a driver for vengeance/crime-fighting/redemption. That's why I don't think it would be different in Laurel's case. Edited August 7, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Sakura12]

The difference is Oliver wasn't the most disliked character on the show. Plus he's the lead, everyone is sacrificed for him. Laurel barely matters and we already had Tommy die saving her stupid ass. They probably shouldn't do that again with Sara if they want to get Laurel fans. 

[NumberCruncher]

See, I thought the same thing before. The only way Laurel would ever have a 'believable' motivation for becoming BC is if Sara dies. Then someone pointed out to me here that they could have done that when Tommy died, which is also true. So why did they wait? Why waste a whole season building Sara as a believable and better BC with a solid justifiable backstory when you intend to make someone else BC? It doesn't add up. I also don't like the idea of killing off Sara just so Laurel has a reason for existing. That really sucks. I really don't know how they're gonna do it and I'm concerned that whatever they attempt to do will just feel so forced.

Probably because they wanted to balance the transition with the longevity of the show. It took them well into S2 before Oliver was even referred to as the Arrow and now going into S3 he still has yet to become the Green Arrow, so why take so much time for that if you're going to immediately turn Laurel into the Black Canary at the end of S1. I think the Sara introduction was planned for the purpose of starting Laurel's transition over time--hence only calling Sara the Canary and not Black Canary. That's probably why they've never given Caity Lotz regular status...because it was never meant to be Sara's story--it's Laurel's. That being said, I don't believe the EPs had any idea that the audience would end up preferring Sara over Laurel as eventual BC.

Edited August 7, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Sakura12]

If Oliver's not going by Green Arrow, why does it make it different that Sara goes by Canary instead of Black Canary?

 

No one was sacrificed for Sara to want to be a hero. That makes her heroes journey even better (ignoring the part where they ruined Sara in the finale). Oliver had to be told to do things or lose the people he cares about to get is motivation in gear. Sara's journey has already been different than most heroes, her parents aren't dead and she made the decision to fight for other women because she can.

[NumberCruncher]

The difference is Oliver wasn't the most disliked character on the show. Plus he's the lead, everyone is sacrificed for him. Laurel barely matters and we already had Tommy die saving her stupid ass. They probably shouldn't do that again with Sara if they want to get Laurel fans.

But as far as the comic world is concerned, BC is a "lead" superhero too. As far as the show is concerned, Katie is (at least on paper) the lead actress. I'm not saying it's 100% going to happen that way--I hope it doesn't because I really like Sara--but just looking at it from a plot perspective, it's consistent with Oliver's journey. But I do agree with you that it's not the smartest way to get people to like Laurel more. Then again, maybe they're hedging their bets that something will happen in Laurel's story this season which will redeem her in the eyes of the fans so by the time they fridge Sara it won't matter as much.

[NumberCruncher]

If Oliver's not going by Green Arrow, why does it make it different that Sara goes by Canary instead of Black Canary?

Because it still leaves the door open for that title to be given to the "rightful" owner from the comics (i.e. Dinah Laurel Lance). Comic book Oliver Queen IS the Green Arrow. Comic book Dinah Drake/Dinah Lance IS the Black Canary. Sara Lance doesn't exist in that world. I'm not saying it's the right approach for the show, but that's the impression I get from the various soundbites and print interviews by the EPs. The EPs/writers have to find a way to appease the die-hard comic fans too (especially now that they're already deviating in a big way by pursuing Olicity as opposed to Lauriver from a romantic angle).

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's stop fretting over what may or may not happen, folks. This topic is about Laurel. Move on.

[wonderwall]

Suddenly Laurel's 'substance abuse' became clear with one quote: 

 

“Our feelings, our fears: they control us. It’s not the other way around.”

 

Laurel's always been painted as weak willed (when she forgives Oliver so easily, the substance abuse, sleeping with Oliver), so I don't know why people get upset when people say Laurel is weak? It's because she is (IMO). Now if we can actually SEE her grow out of that, then that'll be interesting but we haven't seen that. ESPECIALLY with her recovery arc. 

[icandigit]

 

because it was never meant to be Sara's story--it's Laurel's

I'm trying to see what I remember about Laurel's story. I admit I wasn't really paying that much attention. Her boyfriend who cheated on her with her sister(who died while cheating) comes back from the dead. She has random interactions with him and dates his best friend.  She gets help from the arrow to solve cases. She breaks up with boyfriend and sleeps with return from the dead boyfriend. New ex boyfriend dies saving her.

 

She feels guilty and doesn't get back  with back from the dead boyfriend. She goes after the arrow.Something something kidnappings.She awesomely drunk/high.  Sister returns from dead sleeps with back from the dead boyfriend. Her dad goes to jail. .Back from the dead boyfriend disses her in the hallway twice. Slade spills some gossip.Looses job gets new job. Finds out Blood is evil. Her sister gives her a jacket because she is going on a carnival cruise. Dad passes out.

Edited August 7, 2014 by icandigit

[NumberCruncher]

I definitely think some of those plot points were the writers/producers just trying to find things for Laurel to do after they altered their original conception of her character progression.  I would assume the original plan was to have her learn the Arrow's secret and become part of "Team Arrow" earlier (even if she wasn't yet some iteration of the Canary) but that got shelved when other characters ended up working better.  That left her flailing around random storylines and didn't do the character any favors.  In a way I can see why the show brought her sister into the mix--it at least gave Laurel a way to be tied somehow into the Team Arrow dynamic without actually being one of them.

[statsgirl]

  I would assume the original plan was to have her learn the Arrow's secret and become part of "Team Arrow" earlier (even if she wasn't yet some iteration of the Canary) but that got shelved when other characters ended up working better.  That left her flailing around random storylines and didn't do the character any favors.

I think that's a really good point -- the show did work better when Laurel wasn't in the episode (e.g. Keep Your Enemies Closer). 

 

But they didn't want to lose Laurel as a leading character so they gave her five addiction episodes plus various other (Laurel Lance, Girl Detective) at a time when there was already a ton of stuff to get through in order to get to the finale.  It did neither the character nor the show any favours.

[wonderwall]

THere was a deleted scene explaining why Laurel was at CNRI in the season finale.

 

 

Do you think that, that scene would've helped alleviated all the hate Laurel has gotten? Does that change your mind about her or make you hate her a little less?

[calliope1975]

That clip does put a better perspective on why Laurel was there, but I don't know that it makes me like her more. Mostly since that scene/incident isn't the only reason I dislike her.

 

I keep thinking to other natural or man-made disasters that happen in the world. If there's a tornado in TX that wipes out a legal office, does the justice system just say 'oh well, everyone stays in jail now because the paperwork is gone.' I don't think that's how it works - though I fully admit I have no idea. 

 

Also, this looked to be right after Moira made the announcement, and I can see trying to salvage what you could. But once it got bad, with rioters (carrying doomsday signs which will never not make me laugh) running around the streets, that's when you get the fuck out of dodge. And if you don't, then there's a level of responsibility you have to take.

[willpwr]

TBH, the only thing that can change my mind about Laurel is if KC's acting improves at this point. Like I stated earlier, it's like they try to make her so many things in order for her to resonate with the audience but she is so disconnected from her character that even in that scene, I just see KC "acting" and thinking about how she'll appear heroic to the audience. I, personally, don't hate her character, I don't understand it and am taken out of the show with almost all her scenes except for when she's being bitchy. I enjoy bitchy Laurel, actually, she seems to be most natural in those scenes. I agree with a lot of people, I think she'd be an awesome Manhunter. I think I would like her character if they weren't seemingly trying to force all these qualities on her.

 

I am going to stop reading and watching KC's interviews because they really do her no favors, IMHO.

Edited August 8, 2014 by willpwr

[dtissagirl]

The problem for me is that the show botched up CNRI along with Laurel. I can't remember a single actual poor person in need of legal aid that Laurel and/or CNRI helped. The only person I saw CNRI [indirectly] help was *Thea* when she was forced to work there. I mean, if it were supposed to be a beacon of hope in a disenfranchised neighborhood, the LEAST they could do was make the audience actively care about the place and its importance. They never did. And in post-S2 hindsight, CNRI and their clients actually didn't matter much to anyone who worked there either, because Laurel moved on to the DA's office, and Joanna got the big fancy law firm job, and they don't really seem to care anymore about what happened to their clients after the Undertaking.

 

So, for me, it's not even that I blame Laurel for Tommy dying -- because I don't -- but the show failed to make me care about CNRI, so my main reaction to Laurel trying to save manila folders while the place is colapsing is "and I should care WHY?"

 

 

ETA: I just remembered the little boy Laurel had to protect from Gunn from Angel. She made a connection to the boy, and the audience knew and cared for him because of that. If they had made Laurel go to the Glades because of him, or if she were at CNRI specifically because of his case, it would give the entire thing the emotional hook it lacked.

Edited August 8, 2014 by dancingnancy

[TanyaKay]

The problem for me is that the show botched up CNRI along with Laurel. I can't remember a single actual poor person in need of legal aid that Laurel and/or CNRI helped. The only person I saw CNRI [indirectly] help was *Thea* when she was forced to work there. I mean, if it were supposed to be a beacon of hope in a disenfranchised neighborhood, the LEAST they could do was make the audience actively care about the place and its importance. They never did. And in post-S2 hindsight, CNRI and their clients actually didn't matter much to anyone who worked there either, because Laurel moved on to the DA's office, and Joanna got the big fancy law firm job, and they don't really seem to care anymore about what happened to their clients after the Undertaking.

 

 

ETA: I just remembered the little boy Laurel had to protect from Gunn from Angel. She made a connection to the boy, and the audience knew and cared for him because of that. If they had made Laurel go to the Glades because of him, or if she were at CNRI specifically because of his case, it would give the entire thing the emotional hook it lacked.

 

Nops, this scene would not have made any difference because I never liked Laurel before and loathed her after she jumped onto Ollie after professing her love for Tommy (if I recall, it all happened in a couple of days).

 

I think Tommy made more of a connection with that little boy than Laurel ever did. All I remember was Katie Cassidy and her trade mark clumpy mascara look.

[Password]

That scene did nothing for me.

[SonofaBiscuit]

 

I think Tommy made more of a connection with that little boy than Laurel ever did. All I remember was Katie Cassidy and her trade mark clumpy mascara look.

 

 

Well, I don't even remember Laurel and a little boy.  I don't remember that happening at all.  I must have completely tuned out that first season.  I really need to go back and rewatch, but there's just so much TV and so little time.

[Velocity23]

Tommy and the little boy had such an amazing connection. 

[Morrigan2575]

Well, I don't even remember Laurel and a little boy.  I don't remember that happening at all.  I must have completely tuned out that first season.  I really need to go back and rewatch, but there's just so much TV and so little time.

It's in the back half of the season, the episode where Oliver was supposed to help Diggle/Lyla catch Deadshot and he bailed because the guy that Laurel was suing was skipping town and he had to stop him that very minute because....uh?  

Edited August 8, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Angel12d]

Probably because they wanted to balance the transition with the longevity of the show. It took them well into S2 before Oliver was even referred to as the Arrow and now going into S3 he still has yet to become the Green Arrow, so why take so much time for that if you're going to immediately turn Laurel into the Black Canary at the end of S1. I think the Sara introduction was planned for the purpose of starting Laurel's transition over time--hence only calling Sara the Canary and not Black Canary. That's probably why they've never given Caity Lotz regular status...because it was never meant to be Sara's story--it's Laurel's. That being said, I don't believe the EPs had any idea that the audience would end up preferring Sara over Laurel as eventual BC.

 

I can understand that but if they went with Tommy's death being Laurel's motivation to become BC, she didn't need to suddenly become BC by the end of S2. We could have seen her struggling with her issues and guilt and deciding to put her anger to good use rather than sink into another bottle of wine and/or pills. She could have slowly started training. Maybe she could have failed a few times and given up? They easily could have dragged out the build to BC without making Sara the Canary.

 

Also, most people I've seen think Sara is BC. I've only seen one person say she's only called Canary. That pretty much shows you that whether or not the story was Laurel's in the comics, most people don't see it that way on this show. At least that's my impression with who I've talked to and seen in online discussion.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Angel12d

[statsgirl]

Do you think that, that scene would've helped alleviated all the hate Laurel has gotten? Does that change your mind about her or make you hate her a little less?

This scene was after Oliver told her to stay away from the Glades that day, and after Moira had said there was going to be an earthquake.  But maybe before Quentin told her to get out of there (which she didn't).

 

As Laurel gave everyone orders to take all the paperwork out, all I could think about were the many, many metal file cabinets in the room. It was an impossible task to get all the paperwork out of there in a hurry because there was so much; why didn't she just get people to put them in the metal cabinets so they would be safe even if the building came down?

 

It was a good scene to cut because it doesn't do Laurel any favours with respect to intelligence or not giving orders to everyone because she knows best.

[Angel12d]

Yeah that scene adds nothing for me. I still would have thought she was an idiot even with an explanation. 

[TanyaKay]

and there was never a boss or director type person running CNRI. That place was just set up to make Laurel look like a messiah. It ended up making her look like a very dim witted person who was neither good at lawyering (she did not win a single case, her clients got justice through Arrow) nor was she good at keeping herself safe even when she was told what to do to keep herself safe.

[Morrigan2575]

The pilot script that was posted had a boss but I can't remember if he was in the pilot. If he was they dropped him afterwards because I don't remember him in S1

[Orion]

So I was writing this big long response about how that scene didn't make a difference in how I felt about Laurel, that chunky dialogue aside,  it was a contrived MacGuffin that I didn't believe. (It's not like they were storing DNA samples at CNRI, the evidence was on paper and came from somewhere just get it again).

 

When I realized that I could compare and contrast Felicity and Laurel during that finale.  Oliver tells Felicity to get out of the foundry that it is "ground zero" and she tells him that if he's staying, she's staying. Felicity only needed the design of the earthquake machine, which she could have downloaded to her tablet and left. The roles could have very easily been reversed and the foundry could have collapsed, Tommy shows up on scene and dies saving Felicity. It would have been tragic, because I liked Tommy, but it wouldn't have changed my opinion of Felicity.

 

Both of the women are someplace they really shouldn't be. Both were told to get out of that place.  They are both putting themselves in danger for what they believe in (or what we are told they believe in). But one of them I hold responsible for the death of a character I liked and the other I wouldn't. For me it just illustrates to myself that I had already decided firmly that I did not like Laurel and whatever bad decisions she made I was not willing to overlook them.

[foreverevolving]

THere was a deleted scene explaining why Laurel was at CNRI in the season finale.

 

 

Do you think that, that scene would've helped alleviated all the hate Laurel has gotten? Does that change your mind about her or make you hate her a little less?

Okay, this is an excellent evidence of why KC doesn't work as Laurel. Yes the script is slightly clunky and cliche, especially that last "something hope.." part. but, until that point, it's not too bad- it is what i would imagine someone in charge would say in such a situation (well on a TV show. In real life the person in charge should know to tell everyone to get the f**k out of there- the friend, Joanna?, was right about that. I was raised in a an area of the world where terrorist attacks were a common threat, something happens you get out of there and to safety as if your ass is on fire, you don't just lounge around) but i have digressed- as i started, in the hands of a better actress i would have bought this scene, even the last line. it is obvious what the character motivation is: help the clients, make sure they don't lose their dignity with their home; and what are emotions should be: fear, hope, determination. i saw a bit of determination but i didn't FEEL it. and her eyes were.. well the usual.

This could have been an amazing scene! flashing Laurel as a humanist, a fearless fighter protecting the small person who is about to loss everything!

[statsgirl]

This could have been an amazing scene! flashing Laurel as a humanist, a fearless fighter protecting the small person who is about to loss everything!

Listening to Marc Guggenheim talk about it, I get the feeling that that's what they were going for, both in the scene and in Laurel overall.

 

It just never seems to come across that way.

[poetgirl925]

I saw that scene on my DVD, but it didn't impact me very much. As was stated above, I wasn't given much reason to care about CNRI in S1 and then it all just went away by S2, so what was the point of Laurel guilting her friend into risking her life to save paper? It made her seem manipulative yet again. I know, logically, that the paper represented human lives, but there were actual humans being put at risk on my screen and that trumps paper. Maybe if we hadn't seen 2 or 3 people tell her not to go to the Glades, or maybe if someone else besides Laurel was calling the shots in that scene, it might have been different. Tommy dying just compounded the issue further, not to mention that Tommy died saving her AFTER she'd slept with Oliver again. I will never not be irritated by how that triangle played out. Maybe if S2 had opened with Laurel struggling to rebuild what she put herself and others at risk to save, it might have been different. I understand she needed a job, but if you want me to believe a character is a fighter then you need to show me that they're fighting for something. Instead we got an elegant, perfectly manicured and coiffed Laurel gliding down a staircase at a party. I'm not sure why that irritated me so much, but it really did - maybe because it seemed to put her far above the plight of the people. They never really showed us the plight of the people in S1, but S2 could have been an opportunity to rectify that. Prosecuting Moira and going after Blood just didn't have the same effect. It's hard to believe that someone as smart and motivated to help the downtrodden as they want us to believe Laurel is wouldn't have kept trying to find a way to help people in the Glades. In this way, the DA angle didn't work for me. It felt like she took the job as a way to enact her vendetta against the Hood, and that's the opposite of bighearted attorney fighting for the people IMO. And if she didn't care enough to keep up the fight for the people in the Glades (aside from her position with the DA) then why would she ever put on a costume to do it?

I can honestly say I've never been so disappointed by an adaptation of a major comic character on TV. It started in the pilot and just kept sliding downhill from there. And even then I hung on for a while, hoping the show would find their footing with Laurel in a way that honored Dinah, but I've given up hoping for that at this point. It never should have taken this long to get to the point with her. I will try not to be a hater in S3, but I really doubt I will love the next thing they try with her. The spoilers don't sound very promising.

[wonderwall]

2 scenes that basically say that Laurel doesn't know Oliver like she knows her own name... or at all for that matter (and that her speech to Oliver after Moira died shows that Laurel is completely deluded when it comes to Oliver): 

 

 

 

Case closed. 

[Password]

Laurel, from the beginning has been showed to be very confused and conflicted in her opinion of Oliver and what she thinks she knows about him. I mean just in the first few episodes of Arrow in season 1 she flopped all over the place about hating Oliver, then wanting to be his friend. Those gifs don't really surprise me. Her speech about knowing Oliver like her own name just made me roll my eyes because anyone who has watched from the beginning knows it was utter twaddle. It was even worse because the week before we learned about Oliver cheating on her again and this time procreating.

[catrox14]

2 scenes that basically say that Laurel doesn't know Oliver like she knows her own name... or at all for that matter (and that her speech to Oliver after Moira died shows that Laurel is completely deluded when it comes to Oliver): 

 

 

 

Case closed.

But she knows him in his bones!!!

Edited August 10, 2014 by catrox14

[poetgirl925]

What puzzles me is that while they've used flashbacks to show that she was completely deluded about her relationship with Oliver, they gave her such silly lines as "I know you like my own name" and "I know you in your bones." And this after 2 seasons where she didn't really know anything about him and had very little contact with him in S2. And she still doesn't know about his love child. It makes me wonder if the writers are deliberately making her think she knows him only to have the rug pulled out from under her at some point, or if they just don't realize (or don't care) how the flashbacks and most of their present day interactions contradict this idea of them knowing each other so well. I don't recall ever watching a show where this was such a problem tbh.

[KirkB]

I watched Heir to the Demon the other night, and was struck by the flashback with Laurel and Sara just before the latter gets on the boat. When Laurel is talking about her and Oliver looking for an apartment together, the way she's talking sounds like SHE is the one looking. I doubt Oliver was involved. I'm fairly sure Laurel was either delusional or willingly blind. And according to the EP's themselves Laurel doesn't even know herself. How the hell could she possibly know Oliver?

[TanyaKay]

What puzzles me is that while they've used flashbacks to show that she was completely deluded about her relationship with Oliver, they gave her such silly lines as "I know you like my own name" and "I know you in your bones." And this after 2 seasons where she didn't really know anything about him and had very little contact with him in S2. And she still doesn't know about his love child. It makes me wonder if the writers are deliberately making her think she knows him only to have the rug pulled out from under her at some point, or if they just don't realize (or don't care) how the flashbacks and most of their present day interactions contradict this idea of them knowing each other so well. I don't recall ever watching a show where this was such a problem tbh.

 

I don't think the writers give it all that much thought. I mean their initial plan was to make Sara a villain and a Deathstroke accomplice. That is why, when she first appeared during first half of season 2, there were no romantic overtones in her conversation with Oliver (she even mentioned about the Laurel and Oliver togetherness and how some things never change). She was shown to be a tough as nails woman who had a couple of emotional moments with her dad, but when the producers realized how well received she was, they made her the LI of the season and created a whole backstory where she appeared to be the better/smarter sister, as a consequence of which, Laurel had to be the self involved and delusional one (not to mention the fact that she was not nice with her baby sister).

 

In season 1, the EPs were going for Laurel as a tough woman who will eventually crumble under the heroism of Arrow and fall for the steely blue gaze of Oliver Queen. What they did not count on was that sketchy/ambiguous writing matched with KC's rather poor acting made Laurel a character that most audience are just waiting for being written off or die.

 

During season 2, they realized that they had two much better choices - Emily Bett for leading lady and love interest and Caity Lotz for Black Canary and that love interest and Black Canary can be two different people) which made the character of Laurel totally superfluous to the show.

So far, any attempt to integrate her into main storylines seemed contrived and forced, it is a good thing that most of us love the show and all the other things hence we continue to watch it.

[poetgirl925]

I just finished a rewatch of S1 and S2, and I agree - Laurel was blind when it came to Oliver. She was probably willfully blind in the past, and then she let the past blind her to the differences when Oliver returned. It seems to me that they just embraced the dysfunction at the end of S1 and throughout S2 rather than trying to enact whatever they originally planned for this pairing and Laurel as a character. They used the flashbacks to show Sara in a better light than Laurel, I guess because they wanted the audience to forgive Sara. But was it necessary? If they hadn't hooked Oliver and Sara up again, I'd say no. I wasn't holding the past against Sara when she returned. But they did have them sleep together again, so then we got flashbacks that made Laurel out to be pretty stupid about her relationship with Oliver even back then. They showed Sara trying to talk to Laurel and getting a verbal bitch slap for her efforts. That whole flashback came off making Sara look better than Laurel in a situation where Sara should have been the boyfriend stealing sister. Honestly, I don't think the audience needed more reasons to dislike Laurel. And then Laurel was the only one to apologize, again making her out to be the bad guy. It's hard for me to believe this is how the writers intended to make Laurel look, but it's also hard for me to believe no one saw this. That other flashback of her calling Oliver 'cute when he's mopey' is just as bad. Dude wasn't 'mopey' - he was a lying, cheating, manipulative guy who used people. Then, after all this, Laurel still runs around claiming to know Oliver so well. I do wonder if that will stop when she finds out about the baby mama or if she'll be all 'bygones' like she was by the end of the pilot despite her anger a mere 30 minutes earlier. Things like this combine to make Laurel one hell of a character mess. I don't understand what they're trying to tell me about Laurel at all.

ETA - wait, Sara was supposed to be a villain? I didn't know that. If that's the case, then what happened later really was a retcon. See, this is what bothers me about the show. I REALLY hate it when shows retroactively change continuity for new story lines. Now, Laurel is my least favorite character on the show, but it's not a good sign for future storytelling if they're willing to assassinate the character of their female lead for a guest star. It kind of makes me think they'll do that to any of the characters whenever they want to.

Edited August 10, 2014 by poetgirl925