Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[AyChihuahua]

Of course Oliver telling them he had a plan or not was kind of made moot by the whole brain washing thing.  If they were going to so easily believe he could be brainwashed, then Oliver telling him he would keep trying on his end wouldn't mean a thing since the team apparently was just going to assume he had gone evil anyway.  The writers willfully didn't have Oliver and the team talk about what was going to happen.  It should have been a given that Oliver would try to stop Ra's eventually.  It also should have been a given that Ra's would try to brainwash him to his way of thinking. 

 

Honestly Ra's actions weren't at all consistent.  Why go to the effort of MAKING Oliver say yes if you were only going to brainwash him anyway?  Just keep him in Nanda Parbat or tranq him one day and bring him back to NP.  Why waste time trying to persuade him?

I hate that they so easily gave up on him, both not discussing getting him out and easily believing he was brainwashed. Refusing to let Felicity be searched seemed like a big clue to me. Plus, it was THREE WEEKS. At my job that is 1.5 pay periods. You gave up on him in THREE WEEKS?

And yeah, I've brought this up before, but did his team think he was really just joining the LOA? Like he was just going to go be an evil murderer in charge of a bunch of evil murderers? I'm pissed as hell at Oliver and even I think better of him than that. He was always, obviously, going to work to bring it down from the inside or die trying. Which is why I found a lot of the show and especially analysis/critiques/Tumblr posts afterwards to be ridiculously maudlin. He wasn't ACTUALLY signing over his soul to RAG, jeez.

[hogwash]

For me, it's Oliver who was harmed the most, and yeah, every single stupid blind stupid thoughtless stupid controlling stupid utterly lacking in foresight (yes, I know I said stupid four times) thing he did was for plot purposes, but it's part of his characterization now. It was basically the majority of his actions over the season. He made far fewer intelligent, well-reasoned decisions than moronic controlling decisions, so for me, that's who he is now. I can only accept OOC actions so many times before they become in-character.

 

For me, the balance of the season for Felicity was okay. Her problematic actions were fewer than her normal actions, so I still call them OOC. Same with Diggle. But Oliver was so dumb in so many ways in so many episodes that I now consider him to be dumb.

 

Bringing this over from the Felicity Smoak thread. I sadly have to agree with this. I can ignore a lot of S03 Felicity's bad characterization because most of it was in service of characters like Ray or Laurel. Other characters like Thea or Roy either snapped out of their stupid by the second half or were only stupid as the episode or scene demanded it. While S03 Oliver was somehow dumber than the frat boy who decided to screw his longtime girlfriend's sister instead of telling her he didn't want to move in together. Every decision he made was crap. Granted, a lot of it was in service of the (idiotic, dismal, horrible) plot. But it wasn't things like telling Roy to break up with Thea but forgetting to put another protection detail on her so Slade could kidnapped her at the end of episode or going to the dinner with Sara so the hallway scene could happen. It also wasn't the usual E14-18 stupid that happened in the first two seasons. There was actually good reasons behind that (i.e. being a mama's boy who took awhile to realize she wasn't the same person or being rightfully terrified when Slade came back from the dead). With S03 Oliver, it was just wall-to-wall stupid from the premiere to the finale with even worse motivations.

 

I just freaking hate that for half an episode in S02 he was ready to die and surrender himself to Slade AFTER the nutbag ran a sword through his mother in front of him and his sister, but in S03 that's his entire plan for 4+ episodes. A plan that he actually went through with until halfway through the season finale. If Oliver returns to form in S04, I just chalk it up to the plot. Until then... Ugh.

[BkWurm1]

Ugh. Oliver had better not try and sacrifice himself at the end of season four. Two season in a row were enough.

[AyChihuahua]

Thus one of my many unflattering S3 nicknames for him: Oliver Queen, Surrender Monkey.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Ugh. Oliver had better not try and sacrifice himself at the end of season four. Two season in a row were enough.

 

Seriously. Though I'm a little bit hopeful that MG and Co. have heard fans complaining that Oliver didn't seem to have learned his lessons. Stephen said something at SDCC about Oliver responding to crises differently this time and I really hope that involves talking to both Felicity and Diggle and figuring things out as a team (yeah, no votes for LL and Thea).

[AyChihuahua]

For me there is just a big difference between emotionally stupid decisions and intellectually stupid decisions.  I have no problem with Oliver making emotionally stupid decisions, such as preemptively dumping Felicity.  It's in character and a reflection of his emotional issues (although S3 is a major regression for him even in that way).  However, he made full-on intellectually stupid decisions, starting in 3.4, when he (1) took Malcolm's word for it that he didn't have anything to do with killing Sara, despite the fact that he KNOWS Malcolm is an inveterate liar and murderer AND Nyssa told him that Sara was in SC looking for Malcolm, meaning Malcolm had motive up the wazoo to kill her; (2) informed the LOA that the man they wanted to punish had a biological daughter handy, for no reason whatsoever, as there was no upside to telling Nyssa that Thea was Malcolm's daughter; and (3) put Malcolm under his protection from the LOA for Malcolm's known crimes (and MM knew when he planned the Undertaking that if the LOA found out about it he'd be killed, so he knew the risks) and didn't even turn Malcolm into the regular authorities.  So what if he figured Malcolm could escape prison...that's not his business, plus Malcolm being publicly outed as alive would be more than a minor inconvenience to him.  So Oliver helped Malcolm avoid all consequences for murdering, flat-out murdering, more than 500 people.  Those decisions were intellectually/tactically stupid, and were the beginning of a series of intellectually/tactically stupid decisions, including sabotaging the plane so that it would crash at the end of its flight, when it was over the USA instead of the high plains of Nanda, was low on fuel so it was less likely to explode and actually destroy the virus rather than release it, and to leave one functioning parachute RIGHT THERE for RAG to use.  SO DUMB.

 

Also, re the idea that people should just stop watching tv shows if they don't like the protagonist, Gregory House, M.D., would like to berate and torment a sick person while ingesting prescription drugs to that idea.  There are tons of other examples of shows with unlikeable protagonists, either intentionally or unintentionally unlikeable.  If there are other things to like, why should someone stop watching?

Edited August 10, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

Also, re the idea that people should just stop watching tv shows if they don't like the protagonist, Gregory House, M.D., would like to berate and torment a sick person while ingesting prescription drugs to that idea.  There are tons of other examples of shows with unlikeable protagonists, either intentionally or unintentionally unlikeable.  If there are other things to like, why should someone stop watching?

 

I never wrote that people should stop watching shows if they don't like the protagonist though? I wrote that *I* (as in *myself*) would've stopped watching before I got to the point of writing anonymous diatribes about a character that I hate - that's why I find it interesting when people don't do that. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Sakura12]

If you hated Oliver would just stop watching even if you liked Felicity, Diggle and the other characters? 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

If you hated Oliver would just stop watching even if you liked Felicity, Diggle and the other characters? 

 

If I hated him to the point where I thought he was a flaming moron? Probably, especially since Diggle and Felicity's stories will most likely always be tied back to his. I'd probably still keep up with what was happening and decide if I wanted to pick it up at a later time, though. 

 

For example: I liked everyone on The Office but Michael, and when he drove a car into a lake just because the GPS told him to keep going straight, I turned the show off and never picked it up again - I don't know how it turned out. Depends on the show and the circumstances, I guess. Although that's the only time I stopped watching something for any reason other than just losing interest. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

For me there is just a big difference between emotionally stupid decisions and intellectually stupid decisions.

 

I think I disagree with you on principle, because I don't think Oliver makes emotionless tactical/intellectual decisions. For example, the writing tied pretty much all of his actions towards Malcolm to how Oliver feels about Thea, and that's his love for Thea and his wanting to overprotect Thea that drove all of the story beats re: Malcolm. I've said it before, I think the story itself was completely dumb [and exhausting. And depressing. And did I mention DUMB?], but I accept Oliver's terribad choices. I kinda expect them from him, even.

 

I also think Oliver thinks he makes tactical decisions without emotions involved, but I basically go LOL NO on him when he compartmentalizes things. Because IMO compartmentalizing is the epitome of not knowing how to deal with emotions. Which is a highly emotional reaction to having emotions.

 

Also we're now repeating ourselves here, but I don't mind external factors affecting the story, which I know you do, so it's easier for me to handwave stupidity if I can pin it down to something external. We'll never agree on this, so let's move on, I say?

[kismet]

For me there is just a big difference between emotionally stupid decisions and intellectually stupid decisions. I have no problem with Oliver making emotionally stupid decisions, such as preemptively dumping Felicity. It's in character and a reflection of his emotional issues (although S3 is a major regression for him even in that way). However, he made full-on intellectually stupid decisions, starting in 3.4, when he (1) took Malcolm's word for it that he didn't have anything to do with killing Sara, despite the fact that he KNOWS Malcolm is an inveterate liar and murderer AND Nyssa told him that Sara was in SC looking for Malcolm, meaning Malcolm had motive up the wazoo to kill her; (2) informed the LOA that the man they wanted to punish had a biological daughter handy, for no reason whatsoever, as there was no upside to telling Nyssa that Thea was Malcolm's daughter; and (3) put Malcolm under his protection from the LOA for Malcolm's known crimes (and MM knew when he planned the Undertaking that if the LOA found out about it he'd be killed, so he knew the risks) and didn't even turn Malcolm into the regular authorities. So what if he figured Malcolm could escape prison...that's not his business, plus Malcolm being publicly outed as alive would be more than a minor inconvenience to him. So Oliver helped Malcolm avoid all consequences for murdering, flat-out murdering, more than 500 people. Those decisions were intellectually/tactically stupid, and were the beginning of a series of intellectually/tactically stupid decisions, including sabotaging the plane so that it would crash at the end of its flight, when it was over the USA instead of the high plains of Nanda, was low on fuel so it was less likely to explode and actually destroy the virus rather than release it, and to leave one functioning parachute RIGHT THERE for RAG to use. SO DUMB

There were many tactical "seriously?!?" Errors made by OQ in S3. In his defense, between MM being Tommy's & Thea's father, as someone he grew up with as a paternal figure, I think a lot of his decisions regarding MM are by nature emotionally clouded. I don't think he has ever successfully able to separate MM the evil man from MM the guy he knew growing up. It's why if the writers could get their shit together he would make a really good archvillian because its just so meaty & complicated.

[apinknightmare]

From the Starling City Times thread:

There were many tactical "seriously?!?" Errors made by OQ in S3. In his defense, between MM being Tommy's & Thea's father, as someone he grew up with as a paternal figure, I think a lot of his decisions regarding MM are by nature emotionally clouded. I don't think he has ever successfully able to separate MM the evil man from MM the guy he knew growing up.

I think another issue Oliver has clouding his judgment with Malcolm is that the very last thing Tommy said to him was a thank you for not killing him. I get him believing Malcolm when he said he didn't kill Sara, because he had been successfully evading the League for over a year, logically speaking, why would he bring attention to himself? Since he'd been running scared for however long, worried about Ra's collecting on his blood debt, I can see why Oliver wouldn't think that he was planning something bigger. After he found out that Malcolm was behind it, he was worried about Malcolm turing over that video of Thea killing Sara to Ra's - who knows how many digital copies he could've had that Felicity wouldn't have ever been able to find - and when he came back, he needed Malcolm's inside knowledge of the LoA too much to off him or turn him over. Even him going after Malcolm after Thea turned him over to Ra's makes sense for that reason alone.

His insistence on Thea being around him based on him being her biological father doesn't make much sense, but...eh. I don't even think his outing Thea as Malcolm's daughter was SO stupid after he initially let it slip that Malcolm had a daughter and swore on her life that he didn't kill Sara (which yes, was dumb). Nyssa said the League heard rumors about her, and that Nyssa would make her pay if he didn't reveal who she was and Nyssa had to discover that information on her own, so...IDK. There are other ways they could've told that story, but at this point, none of it makes me think Oliver is terrible or more of an idiot than I already thought he was.

Edited August 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Leaving the two people who had morally led him through the past two years in the dark and putting his faith 100% in Malcolm Merlyn was pretty stupid though.  What if they had ignored Tatsu?

 

Letting Diggle and Felicity know he was working a plan would have been the smarter thing.  Even if he was willing to sacrifice himself,  he still doesn't deserve their complete trust at this point.

[apinknightmare]

Leaving the two people who had morally led him through the past two years in the dark and putting his faith 100% in Malcolm Merlyn was pretty stupid though.  What if they had ignored Tatsu?

 

Letting Diggle and Felicity know he was working a plan would have been the smarter thing.  Even if he was willing to sacrifice himself,  he still doesn't deserve their complete trust at this point.

 

If they had ignored Tatsu, then they wouldn't have walked right into the trap Ra's had set for them. If he had told them what he was planning, no way would they have just sat back and waited for whatever Oliver was planning to come to fruition, especially when Malcolm told him it would take years. Especially not if he had told him that destroying Starling City was part of the plan - not when Felicity, Diggle, and Diggle's family live there. They would've done what they could to stop it beforehand, and probably gotten them all killed. Not saying they would've been wrong to try, but it's understandable why Oliver didn't tell them.

Edited August 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

There were many tactical "seriously?!?" Errors made by OQ in S3. In his defense, between MM being Tommy's & Thea's father, as someone he grew up with as a paternal figure, I think a lot of his decisions regarding MM are by nature emotionally clouded. I don't think he has ever successfully able to separate MM the evil man from MM the guy he knew growing up. It's why if the writers could get their shit together he would make a really good archvillian because its just so meaty & complicated.

But Oliver was perfectly happy to kill him at the end of S1, not to mention two minutes before he "killed" him, Malcolm said "don't worry, your mother and sister will be joining you soon...IN DEATH!"  A threat that was certainly meant seriously but Oliver apparently forgot all about. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

But Oliver was perfectly happy to kill him at the end of S1, not to mention two minutes before he "killed" him, Malcolm said "don't worry, your mother and sister will be joining you soon...IN DEATH!" 

 

And then right before Tommy died (after Oliver thought he had killed Malcolm, and he lied to Tommy about it), he thanked Oliver for not killing Malcolm, even though he knew what a PoS his father was. So, I can see Oliver's reasoning about Malcolm being twisted in his mind, at least in that respect.

[Happy Harpy]

Oliver always had some "overprotective idiot" tendencies. He's sure he knows what's best in order to protect people -not only the women in his life, he was the same with Tommy and even Diggle- better than themselves, is terribly stubborn about it, and always go for the worst-case, most radical scenario. I find the latter coherent with his five years where it "could always be worse" to paraphrase Theon Greyjoy, and his desire to protect is endearing to me.

It's the kind of flaw that I can accept in a tortured hero like Oliver.

 

But in S3, they took this occasional flaw and imo made it a main pattern of behavior for plot driven reasons. And the timing was, as stated above, unfortunate.

It's the same for the Malcolm issue. The writers needed a character to bring him back in the game, and through Thea and their old links, Oliver was the one who made the most sense. Although it didn't, and even less since Malcolm's treatment of Thea erased imo the only thing that could be used to redeem him, his love for his daughter. And made Oliver look even more like a stubborn idiot in the process.

 

Moreover, Oliver is at his best with Diggle and Felicity imo, and the lack of Team Arrow affected his character.

 

Finally, I also think that he suffered from the imo rather uninteresting flashbacks. They used to give a permanent insight on Oliver and this season, not so much imo. What I saw was too disconnected from the present timeline/the situation Oliver was facing there.

 

For all those reasons, I feel that Oliver was the character whose characterization suffered the most in S3. Maybe it's logical, since he's the main protagonist on a plot-driven season. But in his case, it was particularly tricky because unlike for Felicity imo, they recycled his old issues instead of creating a new pattern out of the blue...nevertheless, since I've seen Oliver evolve for the best since the beginning of the show, I can't help but see this exagerated/recycled pattern as OOC for him at this point. There was a Podliver, too, imo.

 

But Oliver also had his redeeming and endearing moments, like his unwavering love for Thea and Felicity. He still has a deep desire to do good things, protect and help people. He's still a character I love an care about, although I like to snark about his self-sacrificing tendencies and his pigheaded moves.

[kismet]

So just got back from a day trip with my sister. And we went to a farm, where I saw a goat with a goatee ~ and that my friends was enough for me to go OH NO this is why OQ can't have one on the show.

 

More importantly, I found a theme song for S3 OQ. "Heavy is the Head" by Zac Brown Band. I've italicized the most pertinent parts

Heavy is the head that wears the crown
Heavy is the head that wears the crown

 

Black dog
Drinks from the water
Trying to cool his tongue
Like the king
Finds no peace
His work is never done
Night falls
Smoke on the water
Darkness closes in
Cold white hand, in the deep
Will drown you for your sin

 

It's a life long expedition
Second guessing your decisions
Trying to find out what's been missing
Pages keep on filling

 

Crying out
Go and wake the king
Call to arms
For those who kiss the ring
Stand your ground
The walls are coming down
It's do or die
Do or die

 

Heavy is the head that wears the crown
Heavy is the head that wears the crown

 

Mad man
Blood on the altar
The Queen will have his head
His ghost will shake those rattling chains
Long after he's dead
No soul, knows his trouble
High upon his throne
Loved by few and judged by many
He bears that weight alone

 

It's a lifelong expedition
Second guessing your decisions
Trying to find out what's been missing
And the pages keep on filling

 

Crying out
Go and wake the king
Call to arms
For those who kiss the ring
Stand your ground
The walls are coming down
It's do or die
Do or die

Heavy is the head that wears the crown
Heavy is the head that wears the crown

 

[AyChihuahua]

I had a funny thought on the way home from work...the LOA puts all this effort and pain and ceremony into branding Oliver, and then the first time he dips in the LP for a soak after a rough day at work, boom, it's gone.

[statsgirl]

Good question.

 

Maybe the branding was to set up the next round of brainwashing.  A bit of pain before the .... pain.  Also a way to let everyone know he is the Heir.  (I wonder if Nyssa had to go through it too.)

And then when he became Ra's, it wouldn't matter if the brand disappeared.

[AyChihuahua]

I think the show is just pretty silly and melodramatic and doesn't think about stuff like that.

[kismet]

I betcha there is a special salve they use with the branding so that it doesn't vanish in the LP. But who knows?

[tarotx]

I think they might say the Branding was part of the cult indoctrination/brainwashing. It's not about having the Brand but the act of branding and what it would mean. Oliver was now the heir to the demon. He wasn't Oliver any more. Kind of similar as the call to destroy the city. A city could rebuild but the symbolism for Oliver is still strong (especially when killing family).

[quarks]

This week's episode of Vixen features a return of intelligent, strategic, Oliver Queen! More or this, please!

[kismet]

This week's episode of Vixen features a return of intelligent, strategic, Oliver Queen! More or this, please!

Is it worth watching the show? Is it good like the first of the crossovers or is it like the other times people from CC/SC just randomly show up.

[apinknightmare]

Is it worth watching the show? Is it good like the first of the crossovers or is it like the other times people from CC/SC just randomly show up.

 

They're really short webisodes - most are only 3-4 minutes long. It's not like a crossover, really. The episodes are mostly about Mari (Vixen), but Barry and Oliver are present.

[tarotx]

It feels like Vixen is one episode divided up into mini sections but it's very good imo. 

[EmilyBettFan]

How are people watching this if they aren't from the U.S.? Can someone help me please?

[AyChihuahua]

I have a question. Oliver got beat pretty bad by RAG on the mountaintop. Then MM makes half his training about embracing his willingness to do anything (blah blah pseudo-philosophy cakes) and either Oliver or MM implied his humanity had held him back in the fight. Then Oliver trains with a sword for a few weeks with MM (generally getting his butt kicked), and, post-fake brainwashing, a week or two with the LOA. At that point he knows he can't beat RAG. Then Felicity gives him a pep talk. An hour later, he beats RAG, at swordfighting (by which I mean he didn't switch it up and arrow him or come up with some clever plan).

I do not understand. Pep talks do not give one swordfighting skills, and Oliver was whipped on the mountain top. Am I really supposed to believe that once he got his head on straight he became a really good swordfighter? I mean it just doesn't work that way. If you're already really great at something the right mental state can push you over the edge to victory, but he sort of sucked, then one MAJOR injury, a few weeks of training, and a pep talk later he's better at swordfighting than a guy who's been swordfighting for 100 years. Or am I supposed to believe he always could have beaten RAG, but his humanity/death wish got in the way? Bc it sure didn't look like that on that mountaintop.

Was their mistake making RAG's victory too impressive? I think if Oliver had come a lot closer to winning, instead of starting with two swords while RAG had zero, progressing to RAG taking one of his swords and beating him like a tin drum while he kept one hand behind his back, I'd find it a lot more believeable.

[Primal Slayer]

Felicitys speech gave him the power he needed to whip RAG.

 

I was so disappointed when they revealed that Oliver had been faking his brain washing, it just made RAG look even more of a fool and took away Olivers "I am Oliver Queen!" moment. You've been Oliver Queen the entire time.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think it was ever meant to be an issue of skill - they did go too over-the-top with RAG's victory for that to be believable though. Oliver told Malcolm the reason he lost to Ra's was because he hesitated to kill him, and I think we're supposed to believe that it bothered him that he was bested by someone because of that. He even told Diggle that he was bothered by the fact that Ra's could beat him. I think Ra's was meant to have a mental edge over Oliver, not a physical one.

[Guest]

I think we're supposed to believe that Oliver had a lot of sword training with both Malcolm and Ra's Al Ghul and so obviously improved his fighting skills there. But also he'd learned over the season (this is debatable but whatever) that he has to fight to live rather than just fight. Not to mention he already fought Ra's once before so had an advantage the second time around.

I think it was a combination of improved skills and one hell of a pep talk. I guess.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Guest

[statsgirl]

Just like each season opens with Oliver running, each finale  has him needing a pep talk to finally overcome his enemy.

I was so disappointed when they revealed that Oliver had been faking his brain washing, it just made RAG look even more of a fool and took away Olivers "I am Oliver Queen!" moment. You've been Oliver Queen the entire time.

 

 

But he's a special snowflake, of course the brainwashing wouldn't have taken him over.

 

Actually, at the time, a number of people thought that if he survived Fyers and Waller, it didn't make sense that Ra's could brainwash him so easily.

 

I don't think it took away from his "I am Oliver Queen" moment because that was a declaration to Ra's that he wasn't going to be his puppet any more, rather than a statement of identity. Once they released that title for the episode, it pretty much let everyone know he wasn't really brainwashed.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't think it was ever meant to be an issue of skill - they did go too over-the-top with RAG's victory for that to be believable though. Oliver told Malcolm the reason he lost to Ra's was because he hesitated to kill him, and I think we're supposed to believe that it bothered him that he was bested by someone because of that. He even told Diggle that he was bothered by the fact that Ra's could beat him. I think Ra's was meant to have a mental edge over Oliver, not a physical one.

At what point in that fight on that mountaintop did Oliver have RAG on the ropes to be about to kill him so that hesitating was an issue? He got like one good hit in the whole time. And I guess I don't see how it's not an issue of skill, because say I have a fire inside me and I'm willing to sacrifice ANYTHING to become a WNBA player. It ain't gonna happen. And swordfighting itself is a skill. Fencing is an Olympic sport. Oliver took years to become an amazing archer, and it wasn't just mental, he had to practice a buttload, for years. I get that it's supposed to be all metaphorical and blah blah, but at the end of the day someone who has spent a few months practicing is not going to beat someone who has been doing it for 100 years (taking LP's anti-aging into account, obviously).

[apinknightmare]

At what point in that fight on that mountaintop did Oliver have RAG on the ropes to be about to kill him so that hesitating was an issue? He got like one good hit in the whole time. And I guess I don't see how it's not an issue of skill, because say I have a fire inside me and I'm willing to sacrifice ANYTHING to become a WNBA player. It ain't gonna happen. And swordfighting itself is a skill. Fencing is an Olympic sport. Oliver took years to become an amazing archer, and it wasn't just mental, he had to practice a buttload, for years. I get that it's supposed to be all metaphorical and blah blah, but at the end of the day someone who has spent a few months practicing is not going to beat someone who has been doing it for 100 years (taking LP's anti-aging into account, obviously).

 

I'm not saying that *I* think Oliver ever had a chance of killing him. The show said that, when Oliver told Malcolm that he lost because he didn't want to kill Ra's. That's why Malcolm sent Oliver and Thea to Lian Yu - to regain their killer instinct or whatever. It might've been a small issue of skill, but they consistently made it mental: Oliver lacking the will to kill Ra's (even though that's a definite tell not show moment), the fact that he kept remembering the fall and was angry that Ra's bested him, the belief that he couldn't beat Ra's and needed Felicity to give him a reason to fight or whatever. All set up to be mental, not physical.

[dtissagirl]

Oliver doesn't best Ra's on pure swordfidght skills in the finale, though. Ra's is standing there with the sword pointed at Oliver, monologuing the hell out of it, and Oliver is just quicker than Ra's the once, that is enough to stop the death blow, get the sword and kill Ra's instead.

[tarotx]

Yep and Ra's told Oliver he was alone and Oliver didn't believe that any more so was able to think quickly and grab the sword.

Oliver doesn't best Ra's on pure swordfidght skills in the finale, though. Ra's is standing there with the sword pointed at Oliver, monologuing the hell out of it, and Oliver is just quicker than Ra's the once, that is enough to stop the death blow, get the sword and kill Ra's instead.

[kismet]

I have a question. Oliver got beat pretty bad by RAG on the mountaintop. Then MM makes half his training about embracing his willingness to do anything (blah blah pseudo-philosophy cakes) and either Oliver or MM implied his humanity had held him back in the fight. Then Oliver trains with a sword for a few weeks with MM (generally getting his butt kicked), and, post-fake brainwashing, a week or two with the LOA. At that point he knows he can't beat RAG. Then Felicity gives him a pep talk. An hour later, he beats RAG, at swordfighting (by which I mean he didn't switch it up and arrow him or come up with some clever plan).

I do not understand. Pep talks do not give one swordfighting skills, and Oliver was whipped on the mountain top. Am I really supposed to believe that once he got his head on straight he became a really good swordfighter? I mean it just doesn't work that way. If you're already really great at something the right mental state can push you over the edge to victory, but he sort of sucked, then one MAJOR injury, a few weeks of training, and a pep talk later he's better at swordfighting than a guy who's been swordfighting for 100 years. Or am I supposed to believe he always could have beaten RAG, but his humanity/death wish got in the way? Bc it sure didn't look like that on that mountaintop.

Was their mistake making RAG's victory too impressive? I think if Oliver had come a lot closer to winning, instead of starting with two swords while RAG had zero, progressing to RAG taking one of his swords and beating him like a tin drum while he kept one hand behind his back, I'd find it a lot more believeable.

Like others, I think it was a combined combination of improved skill & mental clarity/focus. Thanks to the Pep talk, he was in a better headspace so he was able to make the moves he needed this time, rather than just react to Ras. I also think Ras was cocky & in a less focused state so he was off his game.

 

But I do think that whatever drugs they gave him in NP, perhaps helped to accelerate his training & improve his muscle memory. Similar to TQ, he was being trained under the influence in NP & I think that improved his skill. So perhaps the brainwashing was a bust, but the side effect of suppa-up training probably hurt Ras more than the failed brainwashing.

 

PS - Still bummed they let us down with the Al-Sha-Him arc. I was really looking forward to having a slightly not so good OQ.

Edited September 17, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

As well as improved sword skills and mental focus, he also had Ra's help because unlike on the mountainm where he was sure he would defeat this pesky boy, on the hydro dam Ra's believed that Oliver was going to defeat him and replace him as Ra's.  He even says so, something about being right all along that Oliver would replace him.  Never dismiss the power of a belief in the outcome.

[AyChihuahua]

Accelerating his training is fine.  But going from a full-on whipping to being awesome at an athletic pursuit in a couple months is totally absurd.  And going from a full-on whipping to beating someone who's been doing the thing for 100+ years is nuts.  We saw him learn to shoot the bow and he didn't go from crap to amazing in two months, so we know how long it takes him to learn in general.  He trained with Malcolm part-time, while he was still fighting crime, for a couple months.  That training was only shown twice, and we didn't see him improving, since the first time Malcolm whipped him AND Thea simultaneously, and the second time was just him swinging the sword around by himself.  Then he was with the LOA for THREE WEEKS.  Even if his fake brainwashing took one day, he had 20 days of training with them (and obviously it took a lot longer than one day).    

 

I get the headspace thing.  Two finely-honed athletes, about equal or maybe Athlete A is a little better, but Athlete B has the drive and focus, and he wins.  I have seen Rocky II and Seabiscuit and all the other movies in which the athlete with better focus wins.  I'm fine with that.  But this isn't Rocky.  It's not Seabiscuit.  Or rather, it's Seabiscuit if Seabiscuit were a Shetland Pony, or maybe a six-month-old colt competing in the Preakness.  He's just not going to beat the adult Thoroughbreds.  That's crazy.

 

RAG doesn't say he's sure Oliver will beat him, he says either Oliver will beat him or Oliver will watch his [Oliver's] city die, meaning RAG will win.  If they'd set it up so that RAG was rapidly losing his mojo, that would have worked, but he beat Oliver on the plane and nearly beat him on the dam.  If they had made the mountaintop fight much closer, that would have worked.  But they didn't.  It's completely unbelievable.

 

As an aside, if Oliver could always have just handed the RAG-ship over, RAG's uber dumb.  Because during that big fight he knew Oliver didn't want to be RAG, and apparently Oliver could just hand it over five minutes after he got it, so RAG would lose anyway.  Maybe they'll explain next season how that worked, like they lied and told everyone Malcolm killed RAG (although Nyssa obviously knows better and has no reason to support that lie), but that's yet another plot hole and should have been addressed in the season in which it occurred.

Edited September 18, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[arjumand]

 

 

I get the headspace thing.  Two finely-honed athletes, about equal or maybe Athlete   Maybe they'll explain next season how that worked, like they lied and told everyone Malcolm killed RAG (although Nyssa obviously knows better and has no reason to support that lie), but that's yet another plot hole and should have been addressed in the season in which it occurred.

 

I do agree with everything you're saying here, and it's one of the many things that bugged me about Season 3, which I didn't hate, to be clear. I just see so much wasted potential - good ideas thrown away to fulfil the rule of cool. The fight on the mountaintop looked awesome! Let's do it again, but in the dark this time, so that we . . . can't really tell R'as and Oliver apart- wait, what? And now Oliver wins, because reasons.

 

Look, it's easy enough to thing of it as a mindspace thing - the No.1 in women's tennis just lost to a total tennis nobody. And Steffi Graf's losses were towards the end of her career, when her head wasn't in the game anymore (those are the two things I know about tennis, besides poor Monica Seles).

 

Sword-fighting, as a martial art, has the same kind of mental component as a sport, and one could argue for R'as letting Oliver win - on the mountaintop, he didn't waste any time on monologuing: it was sidecut, throatstrike. By then, Oliver had already lost, and the sword through the gut was a bonus. On the bridge, R'as just gets Oliver on his knees, and breaks his sword off, then stops for a chat. It's almost as if he was waiting for Oliver to do something, while Oliver was acting like he was the one who was over a hundred.

 

The thing is, I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect any of this to be explained in Season 4. When have they ever explained anything which didn't make sense? It's been over a year, I know, but I still can't get over the fact that Oliver left Felicity on her own after setting her up as bait for a crazy person. If I were writing one of those Five things +1 fanfics about that, it would be called "Five times Felicity was killed by Slade in Unthinkable, and one time she wasn't". And then, at the end of the episode, all we hear is Felicity wondering if he really loves her. And next season, all we're talking about is the 'I love you', and not the fact that he just left her there (defenseless, alone) to go and have adventures with his posse.

 

So, as regards everything Oliver did at the end of Season 2, and all of Season 3, I've going to ascribe to grief PTSD, after watching his mother get horribly murdered.

 

With things like winning the fight, and others - that's the usual 'rule of cool' and 'it's in the script' reasons, in my opinion. If we do get even a hint at discussing any of this, I'll come here and eat crow!

Edited September 21, 2015 by arjumand

[tv echo]

The CW's S2 Character Bio Card for Oliver...

 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.307038822767490.1073741835.104137579724283&type=3

Edited September 21, 2015 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

I do agree with everything you're saying here, and it's one of the many things that bugged me about Season 3, which I didn't hate, to be clear. I just see so much wasted potential - good ideas thrown away to fulfil the rule of cool. The fight on the mountaintop looked awesome! Let's do it again, but in the dark this time, so that we . . . can't really tell R'as and Oliver apart- wait, what? And now Oliver wins, because reasons.

 

Look, it's easy enough to thing of it as a mindspace thing - the No.1 in women's tennis just lost to a total tennis nobody. And Steffi Graf's losses were towards the end of her career, when her head wasn't in the game anymore (those are the two things I know about tennis, besides poor Monica Seles).

 

Sword-fighting, as a martial art, has the same kind of mental component as a sport, and one could argue for R'as letting Oliver win - on the mountaintop, he didn't waste any time on monologuing: it was sidecut, throatstrike. By then, Oliver had already lost, and the sword through the gut was a bonus. On the bridge, R'as just gets Oliver on his knees, and breaks his sword off, then stops for a chat. It's almost as if he was waiting for Oliver to do something, while Oliver was acting like he was the one who was over a hundred.

 

The thing is, I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect any of this to be explained in Season 4. When have they ever explained anything which didn't make sense? It's been over a year, I know, but I still can't get over the fact that Oliver left Felicity on her own after setting her up as bait for a crazy person. If I were writing one of those Five things +1 fanfics about that, it would be called "Five times Felicity was killed by Slade in Unthinkable, and one time she wasn't". And then, at the end of the episode, all we hear is Felicity wondering if he really loves her. And next season, all we're talking about is the 'I love you', and not the fact that he just left her there (defenseless, alone) to go and have adventures with his posse.

 

So, as regards everything Oliver did at the end of Season 2, and all of Season 3, I've going to ascribe to grief PTSD, after watching his mother get horribly murdered.

 

With things like winning the fight, and others - that's the usual 'rule of cool' and 'it's in the script' reasons, in my opinion. If we do get even a hint at discussing any of this, I'll come here and eat crow!

Oh believe me, I don't expect any of this to be explained, ever.  I just tend to watch tv in a way that it has to make sense, and Oliver going from getting whipped that bad to winning a couple months later will never make sense to me.  And Guggie made such a big deal out of the RAG-ship being for life, but then no biggie when Oliver just hands the stupid finger thimble over to Malcolm like it's no big.  NO SENSE. 

The dam fight was absolutely terrible...not only in the dark, but dressed the same, and yeah, both were moving as fast as their grandpappies.  It was terribly choreographed, terribly acted, and really boring.

 

I'm with you on him leaving her alone to be grabbed by Slade's minions.  Unlike Roy these were mostly actual bad guys turned into psychotic bad guys.  She's lucky she wasn't gang-raped and murdered before she even got to Slade. 

 

Re S3, which I absolutely do hate, I want to write a series of fics on how very wrong Oliver's whole "plan" actually would have gone were this show even remotely based in reality.  RAG would have just started killing/torturing them (probably starting with Felicity) to get them to give up the traitor, they shouldn't all have survived the battle v. the LOA, RAG could have (probably should have) beaten Oliver on the dam and destroyed SC, the brainwashing could have actually worked and Oliver would have helped murder his friends/destroy his city, the inoculant failed on Akio so there was a good chance it would fail on one of TA, or Malcolm could have not inoculated everyone, Felicity or someone could have been murdered on a mission while Oliver was on one of his various jaunts, etc.  The ONLY reason everything worked out is because it was written that way.

Edited September 21, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

So Ive been thinking. Do we know what OQs plan to follow him to the end was? Part of me thinks if the team had allowed it to play out perhaps TQ & RH might have not had needed to "die".

I'm just curious if his plan was to have or expected Ras to break him out of prison and then as a thank u agree to join the LoA (with the intention to destroy it). I just can't see OQ not having a masterplan to 1) not stay in jail & 2) not take down Ras. But when Ras didn't have to rescue OQ he got impatient and just went after TQ to end all these petty games.

I feel like I would have been better with that plan. If only OQ & TA had realized the importance of communication & trust. The LoA could have still gone down, but we could have avoid a lot of the stupidity of the back portion of s3.

Edited September 26, 2015 by kismet

[EmilyBettFan]

I really don't get what he was trying to do with the "follow me just a little bit more until this is all over" or whatever he said. I think it was just for plot.

Edited September 27, 2015 by EmilyBettFan

[arjumand]

So Ive been thinking. Do we know what OQs plan to follow him to the end was? Part of me thinks if the team had allowed it to play out perhaps TQ & RH might have not had needed to "die".

I'm just curious if his plan was to have or expected Ras to break him out of prison and then as a thank u agree to join the LoA (with the intention to destroy it). I just can't see OQ not having a masterplan to 1) not stay in jail & 2) not take down Ras. But when Ras didn't have to rescue OQ he got impatient and just went after TQ to end all these petty games.

I feel like I would have been better with that plan. If only OQ & TA had realized the importance of communication & trust. The LoA could have still gone down, but we could have avoid a lot of the stupidity of the back portion of s3.

 

 

I really don't get what he was trying to do with the "follow me just a little bit loved" or whatever he said. I think it was just for plot.

 

Exactly - just for plot. That whole situation was just another example of the main problem which hurt Season Three - plot trumped character every single time. Laurel isn't Black Canary yet? Simple, kill off Sara, and make Laurel become BC in homage. She isn't trained enough? Oh, it's ok. magical boxing osmosis will occur.

 

Like Oliver Queen, the guy who, when still kinda useless party boy Ollie, dislocated his own shoulder to try and stop Slade Wilson from killing him when they first met, would just give up and decide to spend his entire life in prison at the age of 29. No, we needed that to happen, so that his friends would bla bla, and then R'as al Ghul would go full bore.

 

I mean, if it was a plan, and he expected R'as al Ghul to break him out, why not just go to him, straightaway, and cut out the middle man, so to speak?

 

IMO, this was just plot.

 

The only character this year made sense for was Malcolm, if we accept that his plan, all along, was to become R'as al Ghul - not just to be safe from the League, but to be The Guy.

 

Even R'as al Ghul didn't make sense - it's bad for Malcolm to use the earthquake machine, but it's ok for Oliver to wipe out the city with a virus. What? I've brought up my daughter to be Heir to the Demon, but the moment a Hot Guy with tattoos comes along, see ya! Oh, it's ok Nyssa, you can be Brood Mare to the Demon.

 

And if I hear another "it was prophecy! You survived my sword!" I will scream very loud. Because that made even less sense than anything that could have happened. The fucking Lazarus Pit was right there. How did Oliver survive that sword right through him? HOW? Ugh.

[BkWurm1]

How did Oliver survive that sword right through him? HOW? Ugh.

 

Some mighty, mighty,  fine tea. 

[kismet]

Screw being Mayor. I still want OQ to open up his own little herbal pharmacy. Maybe sell some teas, smoothies or something. And now that we know he can cook/bake all the more reason he can start placing those "special" herbs in his little food delicacies. A combo pharmacy & eatery, what a delightful combination.

Edited September 28, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

Maybe that can be the platform he runs for Mayor on, legalizing "special herbs".  ;)

[AyChihuahua]

Why did he try to save Nyssa on the plane, when his whole plan was to kill them all on the plane?  Letting RAG kill her would have taken up some time and been a distraction, which would have been helpful.  Also, forever why did he leave ONE WORKING PARACHUTE right there?  He even yells "that's the only parachute!"  FOREVER DUMB.