Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[wonderwall]

Assuming what I have seen of the cartoons and the handful of comic books I have read are accurate - I don't think we will ever get that Green Arrow.  I just don't get that smartass vibe off of Oliver - like ever (not pre-island, island or post-island Oliver).  But I'd love to see him crack of few jokes, smile a lot more, and be a little more "flip" about dangerous things.  Oliver is just so serious.....all. the. time.  I'd like to see a little more of the "Eh, it just a tank and a couple of rocket launches - we got this!" type of speeches as TA runs into danger. :)

 

I agree! I want Oliver to lighten up a bit, but I thoroughly believe that there will always be a part of Oliver that's shrouded in darkness/sadness. That's why he needs people who 'harness' that light inside of him. I think this is why Diggle/Felicity/Oliver worked as a team, because they brought out a side of Oliver that we never really saw with other people on the show. I need that back. Diggle/Felicity/Thea are the key to Oliver's happiness IMO. 

 

I think Oliver has a dry/sarcastic sense of humor and I can't wait to see him get back to that. I'm tired of the show beating him down to a pulp

[Genki]

Like having Oliver as the straight man when it comes to humour on Arrow. SA has some great reactions, like with Diggle and not wanting baby Sara down in the Arrow cave, or when he messes up in the field in the flashbacks or his reactions to Felicity's verbal gaffes. I like some of his drier quips, like "I never said I didn't know how to use a gun" and when he is being ironic about the Arrow when he is OQ.

 

SA has a beautiful smile, and I want to see more of it but I'm  not sure I want comic book Green Arrow.

[NoWayOut]

Oliver is just so serious.....all. the. time.  I'd like to see a little more of the "Eh, it just a tank and a couple of rocket launches - we got this!" type of speeches as TA runs into danger. :)

I think the closest we ever got to this was during The Calm when Oliver casually asked Felicity whether she liked Italian over the comms during a high speed chase. Loved everything about that scene. "Do you like Italian? For tonight. You like Italian, right? Everyone likes Italian," "I'm multitasking."  I would love to see more of that.

[catrox14]

Yup I don't want comics Oliver Queen right now. It wouldn't be an organic thing for him to suddenly start being snarky all the time. I did like Justin Hartley's GA because he was kind of flippant and snarky but I don't see that working for this Arrow. 

 

I agree that SA is a great straight man, and the humor can come from that.  I liked him saying things like "I never said I didn't know HOW to use a gun" or "My coffee shop is in a bad neighborhood" or " I never studied Shakespeare at ANY of the four colleges I attended"....that humor is gold for me. It's subtle and clever. And suits this Oliver to a T. 

Edited April 12, 2015 by catrox14

[kismet]

Assuming what I have seen of the cartoons and the handful of comic books I have read are accurate - I don't think we will ever get that Green Arrow.  I just don't get that smartass vibe off of Oliver - like ever (not pre-island, island or post-island Oliver).  But I'd love to see him crack of few jokes, smile a lot more, and be a little more "flip" about dangerous things.  Oliver is just so serious.....all. the. time.  I'd like to see a little more of the "Eh, it just a tank and a couple of rocket launches - we got this!" type of speeches as TA runs into danger. :)

I could be on board for most of this. I'm hesitant to agree with the flippant. Part of the reason, I found issue w/ RP is that he didn't take some things seriously enough. What they do as heros/vigilantes is dangerous and carries a lot of risks. Its like any profession that faces danger on a daily basis. There is the potential they might not come home. When people's lives are at stake, I feel there should be a certain level of seriousness. Its not just the people they are trying to save/help, his team is also comprised of his loved ones - so I don't mind him being serious in those moments. I did love it though in Corto Maltese though when he made the joke about shooting guns. There also was a similar line in the 2.5 comics. So it is possible to make him not be so serious. I just think the writers have to careful about when & where they play the humor in relation to the mission. I also don't think SA as an actor has the same type of humor that the actor that played Deadshot had, where he can get away with cocky flippant jokes as easily on missions.

[nksarmi]

I think the closest we ever got to this was during The Calm when Oliver casually asked Felicity whether she liked Italian over the comms during a high speed chase. Loved everything about that scene. "Do you like Italian? For tonight. You like Italian, right? Everyone likes Italian," "I'm multitasking."  I would love to see more of that.

YES!  And more of Oliver smiling - dear God, I need to see Oliver smile more - and not just five minutes before he's about to go get stabbed in the chest by Ras.

[FurryFury]

Bringing it in from the "Mind Your Surroundings" thread.

 

FurryFury - I would love to hear why you don't like Oliver in his thread.  I'm asking because I have some issues with the character - the biggest reason I don't ship Oliver and Felicity is because I actually think he was right in the Flash when he said he wasn't emotionally well adjusted. But I tend to overlook his issues because he is the hero of the show

 

Ow, I have A LOT OF reasons to dislike Oliver. Many of which are very much subjective and probably unpopular with the fans of the show (I'm not really a fan, stopped watching after s2). Still:

 

- If we look at s1, I actually didn't mind him killing people off (hell, I welcome it!) However, what I've disliked from the get-go is the playboy archetype. I just have a built-in contempt for characters of this type. It's not really based on any RL issues, I just do. Also, his many, many love interests coupled with the EP's statement of "Every female not related to OQ on the show is a potential love interest" made me think that the show is a male power fantasy, which I just can't bring myself to care about.

- Also, this is just my thing, I rarely LIKE the protagonist if he's male, while I usually tend to treat the female protagonist much better. I guess it's just much easier for me to emphasize with women, as I am one of them. That said, there is a number of male show leads that I've loved, but Oliver's just not one of them. You could say the cards were stacked against him from the get-go, especially considering the history of cheating that has done no favors to him.

- Season 2. It's the main reason. Up to that, I didn't love Oliver but I also didn't hate him. There were a few relationships that made him a bit more interesting to me. Not Olicity - I just can't bring myself to be a fan, I feel like she deserves better - but Slade and Thea and Moira, yeah. S2 has destroyed all of them. Oliver's "holier than thou" towards Moira pissed me off greatly. Holy shit, dude - you're mad at your mother keeping a secret from you while you've been lying to her and your sister all this time? Seriously? Also, at this time I've just lost interest in him. Way too much manpain.

- This is again subjective, but I don't find SA an especially accomplished actor. Sure, he's not bad. He's competent. But he's not as good as to elevate some obviously sucky material (imho, Manu Bennet is, it's testament to his acting I still kinda love Slade).

Edited April 19, 2015 by FurryFury

[nksarmi]

Thanks for the response.  Most of my issues with him have come up this season - so its probably a good thing you stopped watching lol!  But I didn't like him sleeping with Laurel in season one and I didn't like him going along to the family dinner in season two.  I thought he should have known how much pain that would cause Laurel and encourage Sara to go by herself.  I feel like he never loved Laurel at all with all the crappy things he has done to her - which is one of the reasons why I want her to find her own journey on the show.  I liked her with Roy, but I don't want to see her working with Oliver.

 

I thought he turned a little too much on a dime with his mom in season two - but it seems minor compared to some of his control-freak issues this season.  What really bugged me with Oliver and his mom in season two was her telling him not to trust Isabel, but not explaining why (because if she had, Oliver might not have lost the company) and Oliver not explaining to his mom and Thea about Slade.  He did not need to tell them everything just to admit that he wasn't alone on the island, Slade was there, bad stuff happened between them, and Slade is here for revenge so don't trust him.  How hard could that be? 

[kismet]

All I have to say is thank goodness for SA. He brings such depth of emotions & layers to his character. I believe he showed just about every basic emotion during Broken Arrow. I was really impressed by him.

 

I will have to say one of my favorite moments/indicators of character growth was during the final scenes when Oliver was saying that he needed to accept help. And that moment was immediately followed by Felicity's telling him that he's so focused on the people that he loves, that he forgets that people love him. The facial expression & emotion on SA/OQ was just amazing & spot on. I have always said that I feel a lot of OQ's behavior is that he does not believe he is worthy of love. A lot of his issues & choices (good or bad) come from his internal struggles. Roy sacrificing himself & Felicity almost letting slip that she loves him (but still believes in him) were major turning points in OQ emotional growth & acceptance that he is worthy of love. Once he learns that lesson that he is worthy of love, I think we will begin to see a different/better Oliver Queen. He sacrifices himself out of duty & love, and this episode proved that other people are willing to do that for him. And he is now able to recognize that that is okay, that people do that for him. He has earned the love & respect of people he cares so deeply about and might be finally willing to accept & acknowledge it.

 

Oliver Queen is not a perfect man. Pre-Island he was just a spoiled, rich, entitled brat. He lived his life with little thought about his actions or how they affected other people. He was very blasé & liaise-fare. Post Gambit, he now takes every decision/choice he makes very seriously. He has almost swung too far in the other direction. I have never found him controlling. But rather he finds having a certain degree of control over his life as a way to ensure his & his loved ones safety. He is perhaps too over-protective at times. But since his return from the Island he has proven that his willing to partner with people & trust them (Diggle, Felicity, Sara). He has proven that he is willing to help mentor people (Roy, Helena). When the situation calls for it he is willing to work with people he might have otherwise chosen not to (Malcolm, Laurel, Ray). Even if some of his decisions have been misguided, he's proven that his family (Robert, Moira, Thea, TA) & love for them is a priority & guiding force in everything he does as Arrow/OQ.

 

So I think the last 3 years have been very fundamental for understanding how the Ollie we met in the pilot is growing into the man/hero that he is becoming. No one has a perfect journey, I think everyone makes mistakes. A lot of what nksarmi & FurryFury mentioned could be mistakes along the journey. Personally Oliver will probably always be my favorite character on the show because I enjoy watching shattered people become whole again, learning from mistakes & bad choices. Choosing to try to do better. I also enjoy watching character growth & a hero's journey. I couldn't stand Ollie in the pilot, but since then I have enjoyed watching him become a better man (mistakes & all).

Edited April 20, 2015 by kismet

[kismet]

I forget who said it or in what thread it was.... But hot damn, OQ looks very good in that LoA get-up. They definitely should keep it from special occasions or sexy fun times. Its also the way SA commands his voice as all the different characters & roles. But there was just something really sexy about his take-charge voice he got in the catacombs or even the spoilers as Al-Sahim. I know most people want the Oliver Queen/Arrow Hero to return (myself included, with a little less angst in s4 plz). But this little holiday as Al-Sahim might be more fun than initially thought.

[apinknightmare]

Haha, that was me. They should totally keep the costume for...reasons. I find Al Sah-Him ridiculously hot, murderous detachment and all.

[tv echo]

Oliver's new scar (branded at the end of 3x20)...

 

(source)

[SonofaBiscuit]

I don't think it's big enough....geez.

[Password]

Boy that looks painful.

[apinknightmare]

It looks like an angry raccoon wearing a pointy hat.

[Kordi]

... What I am concerned about regarding the new scar: For SA, it means even more time in the make-up chair, and therefore, probably, even less shirtless scenes in S4!!! :-(

[kismet]

... What I am concerned about regarding the new scar: For SA, it means even more time in the make-up chair, and therefore, probably, even less shirtless scenes in S4!!! :-(

Well here's hoping they consulted with the make-up department to figure out what size was quicker/easier to put on. Sadly, a lot of the real estate is already spoken for. The location of it, sorta looks like it might be able to be easily added as part of the #-like scar prosethetic. Funnily, it also looks like they may be able to play tic-tac-toe if these every seaoson scarrings continue.

[tv echo]

Ouch!  Just came across this pic of the actual branding...

 

(source)

[tarotx]

Now all I see is the tic tac toe and the raccoon lol...

[tv echo]

Oliver Queen's other names to date:

 

S1:  Ollie, the Vigilante, the Hood
S2:  the Arrow
S3:  the Arrow, Al Sah-Him ('arrow' in Arabic), Heir to the Demon, Warith al Ghul ('heir to the demon' in Arabic)

 

Did I miss any?

Edited April 29, 2015 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

Did he have a Russian or Chinese name? 

[Scribbles]

He was "Tommy" for a few minutes with Shado's twin.

[tv echo]

Oliver Queen's other names [uPDATED]...

 

S1:  Ollie, the Vigilante, the Hood
S2:  the Arrow
S3:  the Arrow, "Tommy", Al Sah-Him ('arrow' in Arabic), Heir to the Demon, Warith al Ghul ('heir to the demon' in Arabic), Ibn al Ghul ('son of the demon' in Arabic)

 

No Russian or Chinese names that I've found.

[Trini]

I know Oliver on this show has referred to as 'Batman lite'; but I don't think even Batman has gone through this much misery (personally). Yes, Gotham has lots of bad people and situations, but I don't think Batman/Bruce Wayne (and his inner circle) have been victimized as much as Oliver has.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Trini

[Delphi]

While Bruce only has the one tragedy that he let define him, his adopted family has endured some terrible shit often because of him and that has to weigh on a person. His best friends daughter was shot and molested. Then his ward got beaten to death with a crowbar, then his sidekick had his parents murdered, then his other sidekick got tortured then died from it, that can't be great.

[Kordi]

Some very interesting reflections on Oliver Queen's actions in 3x22 "This is your sword" by "Out of the Closet Shipper" on tumblr:
 

"[...] When I realised the gravity of Oliver’s end game, the ambition of it, Oliver’s actions since allowing himself to be left behind in Nanda Parbat became clear and understandable to me.

Yes, even including not telling his team about his plans. [...]

It would have been such great storytelling, if the writers didn’t rush this arc. [...]"

see: http://outoftheclosetshipper.tumblr.com/post/118432122808/oliver-queens-plan

Edited May 8, 2015 by Kordi

[tv echo]

That Out of the Closet analysis is very interesting - esp. since I just finished reading MG's comments about how he wished they got Oliver into the LOA earlier and could've kept him as Al Sah-Him for a longer stretch of episodes.

[Chaser]

I find my anger at Oliver lessening a bit.

 

My anger at the sloppy, plot hole writing? Not so much.

Edited May 8, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[kismet]

You know, I was never really mad at Oliver for his actions in 322. I understood his reasons for most of the things he's done this season. Few exceptions here & there. But especially in the last episodes, I've understood what he chose to do. But then again, Oliver is the character I most understand or at least get, so I'm at an advantage in that regard. He is also my favorite, so I do have a little bit of a bias. He's broken & complicated, but I generally find his character the most fun to analyze & understand, even if his actions/choices can be very frustrating. I did like Kordi's tumblr find, it was an interesting read.

[statsgirl]

I read the blog and while she makes a number of good points, the problem with Oliver shutting his team out remains.  This is the fourth (fifth?) time in the series that he's done it, and always ends up the same -- he tries to do it alone, he can't, they help him, he acknowledges that he needs them. Until the next time it happens when it's wash, rinse repeat. He decides to it alone, he can't, they help him, he acknowledges that he needs them ......

 

All it would have taken is for him to say "I will do everything I can to get back to you" to Diggle and Felicity at the end of The Fallen. They could still have worried that he was brainwashed in 321 and it would have added an extra layer in 322 when they didn't know if they should keep trusting him or not.  And it would have shown that he doesn't have a flat learning curve, that he finally gets he needs his Team before he actually gets into trouble again, making it all the more poignant that he can't get to them in this situation.

 

What makes it worse is that this comes at the end of a season where everything bad that happened other than Sara's death was a result of Oliver making unilateral decisions and shutting out his Team's input.  He alone decided that Diggle was going to be benched in The Calm (fortunately Diggle came back by the end of the next episode), he alone decided that a relationship with Felicity was a no-go.  He decided that he was going to protect Malcolm from the LoA purely because he thought Thea needed her bio-dad around, without talking to Diggle who is the most experienced of the group and could have brought some reason to the decision or to Thea herself. That brought him to Ra's attention and targeted  him which led to the duel, almost dying on his part and a lot of grief from the people who cared for him.

 

His unilateral decision to save MM, even though he had drugged Thea and forced her to kill a friend, potentially risked Diggle's life and caused Thea a lot of pain when she found out what the man she had trusted had done.  (That was one of the crueler things he did this season, forcing Thea to live with and  take care of the man who had abused her.)  But even more, going to Nanda Parbat brought Ra's offer, which led to Roy's imprisonment, knifing and being on the run, and to Thea almost dying when Ra's attacked her.  And all that led to the possibility of the virus being spread over Starling City.

 

So those two actions -- pushing away Diggle and Felicity after the bombing in The Calm and deciding to protect MM  -- led to everything that went bad in all of season 3. If you take in isolation his actions in eps 320 - 322, yes, there are reasons and excuses for what Oliver did, but looking at the overall picture, it's just the same things he's been doing all along.

 

It also makes Oliver a terrible risk for a relationship, for friendship and even more for a romantic relationship.  He doesn't know how to be a partner, even after 3 years of lip service to it.  He tells Diggle they're partners, he tells Felicity they're partners but at the first sign of a problem, he's pushing them out the emotional door.  He says he doesn't want to die alone but somehow, he always ends up being alone when the situation arrives.

Edited May 8, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

All it would have taken is for him to say "I will do everything I can to get back to you" to Diggle and Felicity at the end of The Fallen. They could still have worried that he was brainwashed in 321 and it would have added an extra layer in 322 when they didn't know if they should keep trusting him or not.  And it would have shown that he doesn't have a flat learning curve, that he finally gets he needs his Team before he actually gets into trouble again, making it all the more poignant that he can't get to them in this situation.

 

How would him saying that he'd do everything he could to get back to them show that he realizes he needs his team, or make him keeping them in the dark about the plan any better, if you are a viewer who is upset that he did that? It gives them no indication whatsoever that he's cooking something up or that he'll tell them he needs their help or want it when the time comes to ask for it.

Edited May 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Genki]

I think Oliver has a lot of faith and trust in his team, (more than what they have in him). He knows they will step up and do the right thing regardless of their personal feeling towards him. His isn't asking for their help he is trusting them to do what is right and necessary. This is why I'm OK with him not sharing his plan with them.

[AyChihuahua]

I think Oliver has a lot of faith and trust in his team, (more than what they have in him). He knows they will step up and do the right thing regardless of their personal feeling towards him. His isn't asking for their help he is trusting them to do what is right and necessary. This is why I'm OK with him not sharing his plan with them.

He asks for their help all the time.  He sent Malcolm and Tatsu to convince them to come help him in NP.  But he still didn't let them in on anything.  He can't have it both ways, wanting their help but never letting them know anything about it.

[Genki]

He asks for their help all the time.  He sent Malcolm and Tatsu to convince them to come help him in NP.  But he still didn't let them in on anything.  He can't have it both ways, wanting their help but never letting them know anything about it.

 

I don't think he really had the opportunity or time to ask for their help, more specifically than he already did.

[AyChihuahua]

But he literally does ask for their help all the time, without giving them information about what they're helping with.  And he absolutely could have told Diggle who "keeps secrets for a living," and didn't tell his own wife that Barry was the Flash, at the same time he worked out his plan with Malcolm.  Which was at least weeks before he actually went to Nanda Parbat with Thea.

[apinknightmare]

Before we get confirmation that it was a stupid reason in the finale, I think all the reason he needs is that he knew they would disapprove of him putting all his eggs in Malcolm's basket. 

[statsgirl]

 

all the reason he needs is that he knew they would disapprove of him putting all his eggs in Malcolm's basket.

He assumes that they would disapprove.  And maybe they would, since he never explains.  Maybe if he did, they would agree with him but he never gives Diggle a chance to come up with an alternative battle strategy, he never lets Felicity have any say other than being willing to put herself in danger.  But she never has any other than to go along with a plan that Oliver is already carrying out.  For all Oliver's use of "partner", when things get bad, he doesn't give Diggle or Felicity agency.

 

Maybe Diggle would have said "It's a bad idea, man, but so was going to Nanda Parbat to save Merlyn and we got out of that. Here, in case this goes south and Merlyn is untrustwothy, let's come up with some contingency plans."  Don't forget, Diggle went with him to Nanda Parbat even though he though Oliver was making a bad decision.

 

Last season after the finale, we talked about whether Felicity knew about the plan with the syringe and a lot of people were adamant that she and Oliver had discussed it on the way to Queen Manor because Oliver wouldn't do that to Felicity..  Now we know they didn't talk about it. And Oliver didn't talk with either Diggle or Felicity about what to do after the bomb in the restaurant, nor about Oliver going to sacrifice himself for Thea, and worst of all they didn't talk about about this Heir thing.  It would have made things much easier for Oliver if Diggle had known he might have to step in and help.  And if Oliver really does love Felicity, then she deserved to know too.

 

 

Never apologize. Never explain. Just get the thing done, and let them howl.

Agnes Macphail

This seems to be the motto Oliver has taken for himself.  At this point, Oliver making unilateral decisions and expecting Diggle and Felicity to go along with them is a trait, not a temporary thing for this occasion..

 

Oliver didn't have the time or the opportunity to ask for their help while the plan was in effect, except for when he had to and had to get Malcolm to explain and they turned him down), but he didn't give Diggle or Felicity a heads up that he had a plan going in when he clearly did because Malcolm said they had worked it out together when Oliver needed Ra's help for Thea.

 

But Oliver always gets into trouble and needs Diggle's and Felicity's help to defeat the Big Bad. Last season he needed Nyssa and Sara too.

It's just a lesson he never seems to learn.

 

 

How would him saying that he'd do everything he could to get back to them show that he realizes he needs his team, or make him keeping them in the dark about the plan any better, if you are a viewer who is upset that he did that? It gives them no indication whatsoever that he's cooking something up or that he'll tell them he needs their help or want it when the time comes to ask for it.

It would have indicated to me that at last he's realized he can't fix everything alone.  It would have indicated personal growth.  If not that phrase, then something else to show that he's finally figured out that he's got two valuable assets in Diggle's battle experience and Felicity's reasoning and it's stupid to keep trying to do things alone because it doesn't work.

 

Unless the next episode shows me that Oliver let Diggle and especially Felicity know that he was going in with a plan to defeat Ra's, I think Felicity should think long and hard about whether she wants to be in a relationship with a guy who when things get tough, always pushed her out of the decision-making.

[nksarmi]

statsgirl - yes! yes! and more yes!

 

I like Oliver and he is our protagonist, but he is a broken, emotionally damaged protagonist.  I have often asked why people want him for Felicity (and wanting him for Laurel is much, much worse IMO).  Yes, he loves her and she loves him, but dear lord, the woman could do better.  This is the primary reason I have difficulty shipping Oliver with anyone.

 

I can ship Thea and Roy because for all of their young damage, they do love each other and I think they have a chance (Colton's schedule on the show not withstanding).  But Oliver needs way more therapy than Thea.  And let's face it, Thea was mindraped and forced to kill her friend by her bio-dad and then forced to buy her psycho bio-dad soup by her control freak brother and I still think she's in a better place emotionally/relationship-wise than Oliver.

 

I would really like them to let Oliver make some real progress in his story because I'm not feeling like I want to watch much more of what we got this season.  It was dull and boring.  I liked him so much better when he was straddling the two worlds and I occasionally got to see a light-hearted, fun side to him.

 

ETA: And I don't believe for one minute that Oliver could not have told Diggle (Diggle of all people!) about what was going down in NP.  As other people have pointed out, Diggle is completely trust worthy in this regards.  I can buy Oliver not telling Felicity because of the emotional connection, but Diggle?  Can you guys really make a legitimate argument that he wouldn't have had Oliver's back in this regards after he went into NP with him to try to rescue Merlyn?  And let's face it - it would have been a stroke of genius to have Diggle briefed on what might go down.

 

Oliver did not know by what means he would have to destroy SC or when it would have to happen.  So having Diggle already aware that a message might come through Merlyn that he would need help stopping something big in the next few months if just plan smart. Diggle has access to Argus - what if Oliver needed some really big guns to save SC?  Why would you not have the guy with the best connections already in the loop?

 

This business with Oliver and Merlyn and not wrapping Diggle in wasn't done because of character reasons - it was bad writing so they could have the "Is Oliver going to lose everything/everyone he cares about plot?"  And frankly, I don't want to see them sacrifice characters on the alter of tension and angst anymore.

Edited May 9, 2015 by nksarmi

[BkWurm1]

It also makes Oliver a terrible risk for a relationship, for friendship and even more for a romantic relationship.  He doesn't know how to be a partner, even after 3 years of lip service to it.  He tells Diggle they're partners, he tells Felicity they're partners but at the first sign of a problem, he's pushing them out the emotional door.  He says he doesn't want to die alone but somehow, he always ends up being alone when the situation arrives.

 

I think Oliver does know how to be a partner BUT he does not know how to allow them to be equal partners.  They have imput.  He needs them.  He relies on them and trusts them but he still see's himself as the deciding vote when it comes to some pretty huge decisions.   He has improved and now in the field of day to day bad guy hunting, he will even concede them equal or greater power and control about what they do BUT he doesn't do the same outside the obvious Team decisions.

 

He doesn't see his decision after the bomb in the restaurant as anything but his issue.   HE was distracted so HE can't have happiness aka a relationship.  That's what made what pushed Felicity and Oliver apart so maddening - Oliver was being an idiot but there was no arguing it because it was what he felt.

 

Oliver decided to protect Malcolm so his sister wouldn't lose anyone else and again, he saw it as a personal decision, not a team matter.  Letting Malcolm exist of course was something that every person in Starling City should have been allowed to  have input over but Oliver for all his staid ways, he always leads with his heart, not his head.

 

It was his emotions and his fear after he "died" at Ra's sword that had him putting his faith in Malcolm and he only woke up to his foolishness once he and Diggle were inches away from death.  He came back from Nanda Parbat still a little lost but he was becoming, I think, more aware of his real motivations and not only started feeling more like his normal pre-fall self, but  IMO we saw in all his longing looks at Felicity as she tried to move on him began to question what he was willing to live without.  His head still told him he couldn't be the Arrow and have a relationship but I swear I saw cracks in his firm opinion that I think we saw rippling down to the Fallen when he let go and grabbed a hold of the love Felicity offered. 

 

BUT he's still IMO leading with his heart and trying to protect Felicity and DIggle and Thea by keeping them out of this League mess as long as he could.  I don't believe he found out about the destroy Starling clause until after Thea was promised the LP.  Oliver will do anything for his sister BUT even he wouldn't have traded her life for the life of hundreds of thousands of other innocents in Starling.  He had to believe he'd be able to find a way to stop Ra's or by sacrificing his life (a price he was willing to pay for his sister's life) thus voiding the threat to Starling. 

 

I think Oliver saw his LoA problem as something again personal specifically to him and something that he was supposed to pay the costs of not his team.   He told Felicity he needed to know she was out there living her life being happy if he was to survive what he was about to do.  Out there safe and not rolled up in his latest mess.  And the longer he could keep them out of it, the better ...except that Ra's really sped up the timeline so he couldn't put off bringing them into it any longer. 

 

Yes he should have clued them in but he really did think he was protecting them.  He wanted to give them freedom from his burden at least for a while.  He expected this thing to drag on for a very long time and his heart is leading and he wants them trying to move forward in their lives and they couldn't do that if they were holding their breath waiting for the other shoe to drop or worse waiting for Oliver to die to avoid becoming Ra's and thus being required to harm the city. 

 

Oliver does need to use his head better and learn to also let his team face the emotional consequences with him.  Making all these unilateral decision is a flaw but it's one I'm willing to work with...even if it does occasionally put him in a place where he suddenly has to pretend to silently support the prospective murder of those nearest and dearest, lol. 

 

This business with Oliver and Merlyn and not wrapping Diggle in wasn't done because of character reasons - it was bad writing so they could have the "Is Oliver going to lose everything/everyone he cares about plot?"  And frankly, I don't want to see them sacrifice characters on the alter of tension and angst anymore.

 

Also this.  It's plot over characterization and I already dismissed TA so readily giving up on Oliver so I'll do the same for him not having the chance to clue them in to the plan.  

Edited May 12, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

You're right BkWurm1 for all of OQ's calculated and strategic decisions, he does tend to lead with his heart more than his head.

 

I do disagree though about the equal partners. I think he does know how to balance out partnerships and he does try to do that. It's just my opinion, but I've always seen equal partnerships as more of a see-saw. There is always a teetering between someone having more one time and then the other having more the next time. So, I think OQ does see Diggle & Felicity as equal partners, however sometimes circumstance demands he take on the lead or more responsibility, while other times they are the ones that take the lead or have more responsibility.

 

**Taking the rest to relationship thread**

[statsgirl]

ETA: And I don't believe for one minute that Oliver could not have told Diggle (Diggle of all people!) about what was going down in NP.  As other people have pointed out, Diggle is completely trust worthy in this regards.  I can buy Oliver not telling Felicity because of the emotional connection, but Diggle?  Can you guys really make a legitimate argument that he wouldn't have had Oliver's back in this regards after he went into NP with him to try to rescue Merlyn?  And let's face it - it would have been a stroke of genius to have Diggle briefed on what might go down.

 

Oliver did not know by what means he would have to destroy SC or when it would have to happen.  So having Diggle already aware that a message might come through Merlyn that he would need help stopping something big in the next few months if just plan smart. Diggle has access to Argus - what if Oliver needed some really big guns to save SC?  Why would you not have the guy with the best connections already in the loop?

Yes.

 

I can imagine that this call would make Diggle even angrier at him when he finds out that Oliver wasn't faking it.  Diggle disagreed with Oliver's decisions to team up with Malcolm, and later with going to Nanda Parbat to save him* but he still risked his life to go with Oliver to protect him. Risked his life and losing his family for Oliver.  Imagine how he felt to learn that Oliver trusted Malcolm but not him, that Oliver was still Oliver and he was intending to protect Lyla..

 

 

* remembering that it was Thea who wanted Malcolm punished and called the LoA just makes me angry all over again that Oliver decided for her that she was wrong and without consulting her went to save Malcolm. Then he installed Malcolm in her home. Grrrrrr.

 

I think Oliver does know how to be a partner BUT he does not know how to allow them to be equal partners.  They have imput.  He needs them.  He relies on them and trusts them but he still see's himself as the deciding vote when it comes to some pretty huge decisions.   He has improved and now in the field of day to day bad guy hunting, he will even concede them equal or greater power and control about what they do BUT he doesn't do the same outside the obvious Team decisions.

He does value them to some extent but it's still always his decision for him, even when it shouldn't be.  He may think he's protecting them, Diggle, Felicity and Thea, but too often he ends up making things worse for them. Ironically the only one who isn't affected by this is Laurel because he's given up trying to make her dance to his tune.

 

Oliver has been an idiot too often this season, Forget this Identity stuff, what I really want to see on the show next season is Oliver working on these issues.

Edited May 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

"Also this.  It's plot over characterization and I already dismissed TA so readily giving up on Oliver so I'll do the same for him not having the chance to clue them in to the plan."

 

At what point do we stop giving the characters passes for dumb things they did because the writing is terrible?  I mean, every single dumb thing Oliver has done this season is because of dumb writing, but for me, at this point, it's now that OLIVER is dumb.  The writing pretty much is the character.  So now we also know that when the going gets tough, TA GsTFO.  I agree that S1S2 TA would have had more faith in Oliver's ability to overcome brainwashing, but TA of current days had no faith whatsoever.  That is how they were written, so that's who they are.  (Until next episode when the terrible writers need them to be written differently...maybe the answer is to pay no attention whatsoever while watching this show.)

[statsgirl]

I agree that S1S2 TA would have had more faith in Oliver's ability to overcome brainwashing, but TA of current days had no faith whatsoever.

I agree, but I think they have cause because this season has been all about Oliver making stupid decisions that got him and his team into more trouble than they were in before.  I don't think that's necessarily bad, to have a flawed hero.  It could make things more interesting as he tries to deal with that.

 

The only problem would be if the show sweeps it all under the rug, and suddenly everything is great and there are no consequences for what characters did wrong this season.  I am tired of every season Oliver tries to do it all on his own and has to learn once again he needs his team.

[tv echo]

 

Hey, Oliver - now that you know you aren't going to die alone in the Arrowcave (cuz you can't still be crime-fighting at age 86, right?), will you now rethink your whole "I can't be the Arrow and Oliver Queen" attitude?

Edited May 13, 2015 by tv echo

[Kordi]

 

Hey, Oliver - now that you know you aren't going to die alone in the Arrowcave (cuz you can't still be crime-fighting at age 86, right?), will you now rethink your whole "I can't be the Arrow and Oliver Queen" attitude?

I LOVE that Oliver got this information. I HATE that he got it on "The Flash". IMO a character's important moments should happen on the show the character belongs to!!!

[tv echo]

Just cuz I like this pic of Oliver...

 

(source)

[catrox14]

I miss that^^^ Oliver Queen. :(

[Tallis]

Just cuz I like this pic of Oliver...

 

(source)

Oh good lord. I'm meeting him this weekend - not helping my equilibrium here.

[tv echo]

Is Oliver wearing a new costume in that LOT trailer (posted in the Mind Your Surroundings thread), or is it his old Arrow costumer?

[SleepDeprived]

^ Still his old costume that's, supposedly, in SCPD lockup. They'll probably debut his new costume on his own show next season.