Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[Lisin]

Stephen Amell is quickly becoming one of my favourite actors on a series, his Facebook and videos for fans are amazing. He's so likeable!

[Kromm]

Isn't he "The Arrow" now? 

The way I recall the somewhat (admittedly dopey) progression is that he was "The Vigilante", then "The Hood", then "The Arrow". and potentially at some point they could go one step further to "The Green Arrow" (logical if Malcolm returned and went around the city this time in full sight of people in his Archer guise).

[Lisin]

Fixed it :)

[Kromm]

Heh.  Maybe next year it will be something else (the previously mentioned Green Arrow).  We shall see!

[Zalyn]

I'm really impressed with what he's brought to Oliver and the choices he makes in character interactions.  One place I think he could develop more is his voice work - he has great vocal range, but I feel like sometimes it runs off without him; if he could keep more control of it, he'll really perfect the gravitas of the character.  I've also noticed how great he is with fans; it's really impressive and speaks a lot to his personal character.

Oliver resonates with me a lot too, both because of his five years on the island and the difficulty of reconnecting with his family; it's hard to share a hard experience with loved ones for all the reasons that come up. The fact that he has to answer to his family is what makes this show great; it's easy for a hero to have no family and to just beat the bad guys, but if he has to balance the emotional and social needs of his family and friends (who have their own interests and agency), it's so much more interesting. I think there is a great foundation for some awesome development over the next seasons!

Edited March 30, 2014 by Zalyn

[Happy Harpy]

I think it was an excellent idea to show Oliver's evolution from douche to vigilante to hero; imo it's what makes the character relatable and admirable to start with, for all his flaws, and immediately gave him layers. I've always found S.Amell particularly good at portraying his character at different moments of its existence. I think it only gets more difficult because Island!Oliver begins to show shades of Present!Oliver, and imo, he manages the nuances perfectly. I almost regret that he's so good-looking, since I have the feeling that it distracts people from what I think is quite a performance.

I like that Oliver never makes half-baked excuses once he realized he's wrong. He can be controlling, my way or the highway  style, have tunnel-vision that leads him to make dumb moves, think with his "lower brain", and he can be a hypocrite, but at least he takes responsibility...even when it isn't his fault, but I guess that's what heroes do.

[Zalyn]

Guilt is very visible as an effective motivator for Oliver - survivor's guilt, guilt at killing people, guilt at not being there for important people, etc.  It's also interesting that he uses that as his "Oliver Queen" persona - being guilty of being irresponsible, reckless, etc.  Basically all the stuff he actually feels guilty about...

[Danny Franks]

I think the writers have done a pretty good job of creating a complicated, difficult yet ultimately very likeable character, in Oliver Queen.

I said this on the TWoP thread, but I think that one of the things that interests me most about Oliver Queen is that he actually wants people to like him. He wants to be seen as a good person, and it upset him when he discovered he was being blamed for the ills of the city. And he wants the Arrow to be seen now as a hero, rather than as a murderous vigilante, striking fear into the hearts of people. Another key difference between him and Batman. It makes Oliver all the more sympathetic to me, because the times when he has to sacrifice his image to do good cost him, rather than just being things he can shrug off.

To me, that amplifies those sacrifices, and I just feel bad for him when he's had to go out and stop some criminal, only to find that he's been ridiculed in the press for missing a fundraiser, or an important engagement. But then, there's the idea too that he probably secretly believes he doesn't deserve to be liked and respected.

One of the reasons I liked Three Ghosts so much is because it gave us a glimpse inside Oliver's head, at the different self views that are at war within him. There was Shado, telling him that he's fighting a losing battle and he should just give up and live a normal life, and that it's okay to want to do that. Then there was Tommy, telling him that he's a hero and that he makes a difference, and should go on making a difference. And then you had the view that I think normally wins out in Oliver's internal arguments, that of Slade. Telling Oliver he's a coward and a failure, that he betrayed people who cared about him and has no right to call himself (or even to want to be) a hero.

This exchange was so telling:

Oliver: "You're not real."

Halluci-Slade: "Neither are you. You told everyone that this crusade was about making up for your father's sins."

Everything Slade said in that scene is, I think, how Oliver really sees himself, when he cuts past all the bullshit. And that's going to be his biggest challenge, and the one that he'll really need the help of Diggle, Felicity, Sara, Roy, Thea and whoever else (though hopefully, mostly Diggle and Felicity) to overcome.

[Morrigan2575]

Best Lead Performance by a Male in a Dramatic Series:
Stephen Amell, Arrow - Crucible

Stephen was nominated for a Leo Award

[KirkB]

With this latest episode, we learn that Oliver had a child (though he doesn't actually know it), with another woman, while with Laurel. So my question is, was he already seeing Sara too by that point, or was his response to nearly having and 'losing' a child to start banging his girlfriend's sister?

[BkWurm1]

I don't think Oliver started seeing Sara until a bit before his boat trip.  

[KirkB]

We don't really know though. The cruise was five years ago, maybe six after the first season. His pregnancy scare was seven years ago. We have never been told how long he and Sara had been seeing each other before they decided to go for a boat ride.

[BkWurm1]

They show it like Sara and Oliver had definitely done more than just some flirty texting before he asked her to go with him on the boat trip but they also had Sara second guessing if she should go or not which to me implied that maybe they'd fooled around with a one night stand here or there but hadn't crossed the line into a full on affair yet.  I always got the impression that Oliver only turned to Sara as a not so subtle way to sabotage moving in with Laurel.

 

There is wiggle room so the show could change when Oliver and Sara got together and for what reason, but so far I don't think we've been given any reason to think he started something up with Sara much before the boat trip.  He might have hooked up with her at that party Laurel got Sara grounded for but Oliver said he didn't remember it (too drunk) 

[statsgirl]

I just re-watched the "Don't do it, Oliver" scenes from 2x11,   (flashing to Wayne & Shuster "I told him, Julie, don't go, don't go, I told him.")

 

After he killed Moira, Slade told Oliver that one more person has to die.  Looking at the scene with Diggle and Felicity, I realized that I'd missed that at that point, Oliver really believes that he himself is the one person who must die for it to stop.   He's sitting there in the alternate Arrow Cave, trying to get up his courage to go to Slade, essentially committing suicide because that is what he thinks Slade is talking about.  The definition of heroism, one man giving himself up so that others may live, is not Oliver giving up but Oliver fighting Slade the only way he thinks he can get Slade to stop killing other people.

 

When Laurel tries to stop him from going (a scene which wasn't so bad now that I know Felicity gets another shot in 2x22), the information that Blood is working for Slade and that there is an army coming is what gets him to realize that he was wrong and he wasn't the person Slade is referring to after all.

 

I still think that Kreisburg's "Laurel comes to Oliver in his darkest hour and persuades him to continue fighting' (or whatever he said) is overkill because it was the information that turned him around, not Laurel's plea, but it makes a bit more sense now.

[SleepDeprived]

Most of the things that the producers say is overkill. Because Oliver was unresponsive and completely resigned to his fate while Laurel kept talking to him about things she thinks she knows about him. There was just a sadness about him, especially when they remembered Tommy, that never really lifted, all throughout Laurel's, presumably, uplifting speech. At least, that's how I saw Amell play that scene. His reaction changed and there was a spark of anger/hope once Laurel told him about Blood. Which, kudos to SA because there was a very distinct change in his demeanor once he had the information that Blood was working with Slade.

[BkWurm1]

His reaction changed and there was a spark of anger/hope once Laurel told him about Blood

 

Definitely   I do think he was a bit quick to believe Laurel given her rocky history on the subject but I assume it was written that way to save time.  Until Laurel gave him another avenue to pursue, he was completely unaffected by her plea, so much so that I wanted to slap Laurel for not leading with that bit of information. 

 

When Laurel tries to stop him from going (a scene which wasn't so bad now that I know Felicity gets another shot in 2x22), the information that Blood is working for Slade and that there is an army coming is what gets him to realize that he was wrong and he wasn't the person Slade is referring to after all.

 

I do find it interesting that Felicity is given another chance to give him a pep talk.  In the previous episode she begs him not to accept his seeming fate, but Oliver was, like you said, convinced his death was the only way to stop Slade from more killing.  They already knew about the army of Strokes at that time so I rather have a hard time understanding WHY he thought his death would stop them from being unleashed but that is another topic for debate (PTSD?) 

 

Now in Streets of Fire we have Oliver again at his lowest, maybe even lower since at least in City of Blood Oliver thought he had a way to stop Slade. It's interesting that Oliver basically sends Diggle away before he starts his what, confession?  apology? to Felicity.  The camera work is a bit tricky and it took a couple viewings before I realized he's saying most of this as he's looking out at the burning city.  He's more than a little lost at that moment but physically he's not bad off. 

 

Compare it with Felicity who looks miserable physically.  My head starts to hurt looking at her.  She's feeling the pain and is probably just as cut up about the loss of the cure, maybe more so since I have to imagine she would feel guilty over the courier's death - Star Labs was her contacts -they were her people.  And yet she has this mental toughness that is astounding. 

 

This scene reminds me of the one where Oliver was going to go face Slade to save Thea (or so he thought) and Sara and Diggle were rightly worried about it being a trap. Felicity cut through all the dithering, gave him her faith, and off he went. 

 

I think Oliver in the first season was fueled by revenge and the need to do right by his father.  In the second season he used Tommy to inspire him to do better and now when virtually everything is falling apart, he has essentially lived off the faith and support of Diggle and Felicity ...and especially Felicity. 

[statsgirl]

 

They already knew about the army of Strokes at that time so I rather have a hard time understanding WHY he thought his death would stop them from being unleashed but that is another topic for debate (PTSD?)

Slade had told him one more person had to die before it would all be over and Oliver thought that person was himself.  My guess is that he was thinking that Slade would call off the army once once he had killed Oliver because that would take care of The Promise and there would be no point to the army any more.

 

Slade's real plan seems to have been to force Oliver to choose between mother and sister, to watch his mother being killed, then his city destroyed, and finally then to have the last person to die.  It was probably more twisted to have it be someone Oliver cared about, as he cared about his mother,  and then have to live with the knowledge that he was responsible for the death of this individual, as Slade had to live with the knowledge that Shado was taken from him. Frankly, neither Slade nor Oliver seemed to be thinking straight at that point.

 

I thought that it was interesting that Oliver was looking away from Felicity when he gave his confession/apology to her.  It's often easier not to look at the other person when you say something like that, maybe because you don't want to see how disappointed they are in you.

 

 

I think Oliver in the first season was fueled by revenge and the need to do right by his father.  In the second season he used Tommy to inspire him to do better and now when virtually everything is falling apart, he has essentially lived off the faith and support of Diggle and Felicity ...and especially Felicity.

Since Oliver got back from the island, it's been a journey of letting other people in.  Diggle forced his way in by giving Oliver good advice, so Oliver knew he was a person to turn to. Thea also forced her way in by yelling at him for being a douche and pushing away his family.  With Moira, it was when they were worried about Thea being kidnapped.

 

I think Tommy truly got in only at the end as he was dying.  Sara was in part-way but with both of them so damaged, I think he still guarded some of himself from her. In spite of what the EPs say, I don't think Laurel got in at all; he may have wanted to tell her his secret every night but he didn't.

 

I think Felicity's "You're not alone... I believe in you" hug pushed through some more barricades but how much, we'll have to find out.

Edited May 11, 2014 by statsgirl

[slayer2]

I don't think Oliver was a douche though.Mind you I'm only on the second episode of season 1 having seen the second half of season 2 but I would never address Oliver as Thea did. You thought your brother and Dad were both dead, yes that's sad but you're brother is now alive and you're upset because he's not being the brother you want him to be, he's not there for you. Seriously bitch fuck off, he has PTSD are you going to scream your lungs out at a vet returning from war because he's being emotionally distant and terrified of the sound of a door slamming?

I know a little bit about surviving emotionally draining circumstances miles away from your family and it makes you distant, it just does and I didn't even have arrows flying at me and I still wanted alone time. To me her attitude is bitchy and selfish, I don't subscribe to the notion that he should suck it up so he can be emotionally supportive of her solipsistic ass. If that were my sister, I'd just end up hurling something at her so he's better than me.

Yes Thea I'm sorry you thought your Bro and Dad were dead but as far as she knows Oliver watched the two people he cared about die right in front of him so, you know, balance. Watching the first two episodes us making it clear to me that Oliver is by far my favourite character on the show, by a landslide.

Edited May 25, 2014 by slayer2

[icandigit]

When watching I felt the demands from Oliver's family were crazy. But, maybe I'm projecting. With Thea, I think Thea was just a teenager and teenagers are the worst. It was interesting reaction from his family. I expected them to do the opposite and treat him with kids gloves until he begged them to treat him normally.I think Diggle and Felicity do a better job of challenging him but, still being there for them. I always wanted them to do a little more involving his family and his PTSD but, I'm not sure what. Nothing overdramatic but something.

[slayer2]

Right?! That's how I feel, it's like they're saying "Okay you're back now, time toove on and grow up." As if he was just on vacation for 5years or something and Thea seeing his scars and screaming at himade it even worse. How can you see him rocking on the floor during a thunderstorm then see his scars everywhere, know that he watched your father die then STILL be an asshole. The only ones who weren't assholes to him these past two episodes IMO were Walter and Diggle which ironically he was difficult with but I think that's how Oliver finds out if he can trust you, by testing you.

[Password]

The only ones who weren't assholes to him these past two episodes IMO were Walter and Diggle which ironically he was difficult with but I think that's how Oliver finds out if he can trust you, by testing you.

That's a good point. He did the same thing with Felicity with his ridiculous excuses. Even over eager Roy was given the task of being the Arrows eyes and ears on the street. For someone with trust issues it's a pretty good way to figure what people are about.

[slayer2]

It is, and he's sussed out some great people that way. It's telling that he never told his Mother but he told Felicity, Diggle, Roy and I think the gamble paid off. To that end I think Thea is too much of a hothead for it to make sense to have told her, I wouldn't feel confident in it anyway. I'm feeling a lot of trust in Oliver's judgement watching these first two episodes and I love the "Failed this city" line, it instills a lot of faith almost instantly.

[Danny Franks]

I think Thea was badly written early in season 1, especially in regards to her attitude to Oliver. I get the rebellious teenager thing, and the fact that she had no one disciplining her, but she just went from 0 to 100 with Oliver, far too quickly.

 

Apart from a few moments, she (and everyone else) seemed to forget that the guy had been marooned on an island for five years. She just started bitching at him because he didn't want to share everything with her. He even told her that he wasn't ready "yet", and she guilt tripped him about how she'd imagined talking to him, in the years he was gone.

 

That's a good point. He did the same thing with Felicity with his ridiculous excuses. Even over eager Roy was given the task of being the Arrows eyes and ears on the street. For someone with trust issues it's a pretty good way to figure what people are about.

 

 

I like this idea a lot. Did Oliver lie badly on purpose, to get a sense of how Felicity and Diggle would react? He was far too open with Diggle, from the start, I think. Jumping from a moving car, using evasion techniques? Seems far too risky, in hindsight. And with Felicity, his lying was terrible. Right from the start, he just should have been ashamed of himself. But she never challenged him, really. She just let him know that she knew he was bullshitting, but she wasn't going to be drawn in. And it was such a cool dynamic, in the first half of the season. That little head tilt she gives him when he claims his coffee shop is in a rough neighbourhood kills me, every time.

 

It makes sense, given that he told her he did his homework on both of them. Apart from their backgrounds, he had to get a feel for their personalities, and testing them through increasingly bad lies (seriously, even Oliver was embarrassed by the sports bottles one) would be something that appealed to him, I think.

 

And perhaps that element of playfulness and mental jousting is what set those relationships up so well, given that Team Arrow really have become the heart of the show. I read Jennifer Cruise's analysis of the first Oliver/Felicity meeting, and agree with a lot of it. There's so much more energy in that scene, and in the scenes they had together afterwards, than there was in most of the rest of the show. So much more energy in Oliver himself, as well.

[Password]

Well he did trust Isabel Rochev who just so happened to be on his list. I guess he forgot about it or didn't memorise it. He seemed to get blinded by sleeping with her and her being all oh Oliver I care so much about your company. Idiot.

[Danny Franks]

Well he did trust Isabel Rochev who just so happened to be on his list. I guess he forgot about it or didn't memorise it. He seemed to get blinded by sleeping with her and her being all oh Oliver I care so much about your company. Idiot.

 

Yeah but... Summer Glau's really hot. And while Oliver might be a good judge of people, his penis surely isn't. Laurel, Helena, Isabel, probably Waller.

[Password]

Yeah but... Summer Glau's really hot. And while Oliver might be a good judge of people, his penis surely isn't. Laurel, Helena, Isabel, probably Waller.

Excellent point. When he thinks with his brain he's smart...otherwise things go badly. I weirdly sympathised with Oliver when he killed Slade. The stuff Slade was spouting was horrible. I would say he was between a rock and a hard place with that decision.

[statsgirl]

Apart from a few moments, she (and everyone else) seemed to forget that the guy had been marooned on an island for five years.

I can understand his family wanting to gloss over the five years and not even question whether he has PTSD because the rich don't necessarily worry about emotions, they move on to making money and the fund raiser for the opera house.  I mean some do, but generally it's more the middle class that goes into family therapy.

 

For Moira especially it would have been even more uncomfortable since she was complicit with Malcolm Merlyn who sunk the Queen's Gambit and caused Oliver to be on the island.  She would have wanted to just to move on and forget that Oliver may have had any trauma. She's good at taking care of herself and Oliver wasn't asking for help. 

 

Yeah but... Summer Glau's really hot. And while Oliver might be a good judge of people, his penis surely isn't. Laurel, Helena, Isabel, probably Waller.

Hee.  And he shouldn't have slept with Sara or Shado either.  While they were both good people, it was the wrong time, wrong place for both of them.  Growth for Oliver is learning not to sleep with the pretty woman.

 

I don't think that the Oliver/Diggle/Felicity dynamic is in the writing as much as it is in the actors.  Felicity's skeptical head tilt when Oliver told her his coffee shop is in a rough neighborhood is pure EBR, as is David Ramsey's dead pan delivery for Diggle.

Edited May 22, 2014 by statsgirl

[slayer2]

Yeah but who can blame Oliver for sleeping with a bunch of hot chics. Sex is proven to release endorphins and be great for your heart and mood. The guy has so little to be happy about and so little to enjoy he needs to take it where he can get it.

[Zalyn]

It's still a very asshole move - at best, he's self-medicating in a very unhealthy way.  At worst, he's exploiting a lot of people for his own needs.  And I don't quite see what the "hotness" of women around him has to do with justifying his choices. If he were the 17 year old rich boy with no cares, then sure, but he's supposed to have changed and matured; this behavior indicates that he does need professional help.   (I have a bit of whiplash from your drastically contrasting judgements of Oliver and Thea, frankly, so it's a bit confusing for me).

Edited May 23, 2014 by Zalyn

[Password]

I would agree that he uses sex and therefore those providing him with sex as a way to service his needs so he doesn't have to face his problems in a different way. It's unhealthy because it doesn't bode well for anyone who gets into a relationship with him and they have a fight, he decides to hide from the problem through sex. Which is kind of what he did with Sara pre island and to a certain extent post island in their relationship. Either he has a serious problem (which I think he does) dealing with his problems through other means or he sees sex as the one viable way to deal with his problems. Hopefully it will be dealt with in seasons to come.

[slayer2]

It's still a very asshole move - at best, he's self-medicating in a very unhealthy way. At worst, he's exploiting a lot of people for his own needs. And I don't quite see what the "hotness" of women around him has to do with justifying his choices. If he were the 17 year old rich boy with no cares, then sure, but he's supposed to have changed and matured; this behavior indicates that he does need professional help. (I have a bit of whiplash from your drastically contrasting judgements of Oliver and Thea, frankly, so it's a bit confusing for me).

I'm afraid I don't see what's confusing. You like Thea, I don't. I like Oliver more than anyone else on the show and watch it primarily for him. I've seen him go through a lot of crap and thus far I've rooted for him in nearly every situation. Does that make me an apologist? Probably, but he's my favourite character so I reserve that right.

[icandigit]

Ollie part1

Ollie part 2

 

Oliver humor

[Carrie Ann]

I kind of think that whether you believe Oliver uses sex in an unhealthy way depends on the importance/meaning you attach to sex or your own personal morality. From my perspective, as I've said before, I see Oliver's sex life as practically chaste. He slept with two women this season! A one-night stand with Isabel, and a relationship with Sara. Last season, there were three--Laurel, plus McKenna and Helena whom he actually dated. Adults having sex when they have romantic feelings for each other is not indicative of a problem, in my opinion.

 

Before the island, Oliver might have been using sex the same way he used alcohol or other substances. He was a bored rich kid, and he used constant diversion as a means to fill up his empty life. As for the island--why was his sleeping with Shado so terrible? They were together on an island and developed feelings for each other. He didn't seem to be aware of Slade's feelings for her (nor did Shado), and it seemed like they tried to keep it from him just because they didn't want it to be awkward.

 

And why shouldn't he have slept with Sara this year? Because their relationship was complicated? Because of Laurel? Laurel has been frankly awful to Oliver for most of the time he's been back from the island, and even if she hadn't been, their relationship six years ago shouldn't preclude Oliver from being with Sara if that's what they both want. In hindsight, it would have been better to not make her aware of it right away when she was so messed up, but that has nothing to do with them actually sleeping together.

[slayer2]

I kind of think that whether you believe Oliver uses sex in an unhealthy way depends on the importance/meaning you attach to sex or your own personal morality. From my perspective, as I've said before, I see Oliver's sex life as practically chaste. He slept with two women this season! A one-night stand with Isabel, and a relationship with Sara. Last season, there were three--Laurel, plus McKenna and Helena whom he actually dated. Adults having sex when they have romantic feelings for each other is not indicative of a problem, in my opinion.

Before the island, Oliver might have been using sex the same way he used alcohol or other substances. He was a bored rich kid, and he used constant diversion as a means to fill up his empty life. As for the island--why was his sleeping with Shado so terrible? They were together on an island and developed feelings for each other. He didn't seem to be aware of Slade's feelings for her (nor did Shado), and it seemed like they tried to keep it from him just because they didn't want it to be awkward.

And why shouldn't he have slept with Sara this year? Because their relationship was complicated? Because of Laurel? Laurel has been frankly awful to Oliver for most of the time he's been back from the island, and even if she hadn't been, their relationship six years ago shouldn't preclude Oliver from being with Sara if that's what they both want. In hindsight, it would have been better to not make her aware of it right away when she was so messed up, but that has nothing to do with them actually sleeping together.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.I don't take umbrage with Oliver's sex life if Shadow, Sara, Laurel and Isabel are it, that's not much for a self-professed playboy even if he's only trying to keep up appearances. I also don't think he needs to be in a relationship or romantically in tangled with them to be sexually involved. I'm not opposed to casual sex when both parties know it as such. Plus many people use many things as coping mechanisms, sex, liquor, the gym, music, food etc so I'm not troubled by it.

[Zalyn]

You bring up good points, Carrie Ann.  My concern is that the support for Oliver sleeping around would not be reflected for a female protagonist in the same circumstances.  I also don't mind if the character is written such that they turn to one-night stands as a coping mechanism; it's the "well, there's so many hawt women around, I just couldn't help myself!" explanation that bothers me as coming from a place that assumes men will always want to get sex and have no self control. 

 

I just prefer to dig a bit deeper to better understand why a character engages in sex rather than to just cheerlead for their conquests.

[KirkB]

You bring up good points, Carrie Ann.  My concern is that the support for Oliver sleeping around would not be reflected for a female protagonist in the same circumstances.  I also don't mind if the character is written such that they turn to one-night stands as a coping mechanism; it's the "well, there's so many hawt women around, I just couldn't help myself!" explanation that bothers me as coming from a place that assumes men will always want to get sex and have no self control.

 

 

   I can't speak for anyone else, but if Arrow were the story of Olivia Queen I would see her the same way. A bored, rich person who slept around to fill their empty and somewhat sad life. As for the idea of "I'm a guy, the women are hot and I can't help it" it's an annoying stereotype which ignores the fact that sex generally does not involve only one person. Oliver sleeping around be it before the island or after still has to find willing, adult women. Sara, Laurel, Helena, Isabel, they all knew who Oliver was and what they were doing. It doesn't ALL fall on him.

[slayer2]

I can't speak for anyone else, but if Arrow were the story of Olivia Queen I would see her the same way. A bored, rich person who slept around to fill their empty and somewhat sad life. As for the idea of "I'm a guy, the women are hot and I can't help it" it's an annoying stereotype which ignores the fact that sex generally does not involve only one person. Oliver sleeping around be it before the island or after still has to find willing, adult women. Sara, Laurel, Helena, Isabel, they all knew who Oliver was and what they were doing. It doesn't ALL fall on him.

You can speak for me because I feel the same way. Katie Cassidy actually played one of my favourite characters to date known as Ella Sims and she was characterised as far more promiscuous than Oliver Queen, bi-sexual and prone to threesomes. It was one of my favourite things about the character. Oliver is entitled to hook up with who he wants, when he wants IMO as long as it's consensual because as Kirk said they knew who he was when they got into it.

Edited May 23, 2014 by slayer2

[Password]

The thing about Oliver and this whole sister swap thing is that it's disgusting. There's no other way to describe it. Please don't sell me Oliver learns from his mistakes when he decides to walk down the road that caused someone he loves so much pain again. Not to mention Sara passing the baton right back to Laurel by saying Oliver needs her...ERM since when? Laurel doesn't need Oliver either, other than saving her from peril.

The writers literally have to be kidding me when they ask women to accept this kind of behaviour. I ask that you put yourself in this situation whereby your brother or sister cheats with your girl or boyfriend. Then apologises profusely, as soon as other man/woman reappears they go down that road again, this time behind your back under the guise of protecting your feelings. Mm no sorry, I wouldn't buy ice on a hot summers day from this person.

It shows a lack of any kind of compassion and is one of the reasons they made Oliver so unbearable to me in the second half of s2. I would say he's not the promiscuous person he was pre island, but that situation will always smell like doo doo.

About the using sex as a crutch. I think we should be careful of being supportive of using anything as crutch when it comes to dealing with situations. Be it alcohol or sex, it's never healthy regardless of consent. The show is about Oliver, not the other characters, and if I cannot see eye to eye with the lead or really even just understand him, the show takes me out of the story immediately.

Edited May 23, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[slayer2]

The sister swapping doesn't bother me, one of my favourite movies/books is Little Women. Sex as a crutch doesn't bother me either, I have a friend who does that, it is what it is, when she's ready to change she will. Plus it's a character so he needs flaws, I'm aligned with his core values so this hardly bothers me, I'm not fussy about people/character's consensual sexual activities and frankly I like Oliver with Sara, Felicity and Laurel so whomever he hooks up with I'm happy to watch.

[icandigit]

I'm embarrassed to say I find the sister swapping kinda interesting. I guess I don't see it as a predatory thing but moreso a sign of how messed up he is. Pre-island him getting with Sara was supposed to be fear of commitment. This time he's Linus she's he's comfy familiar blanket. I think there is a comforting and familiarity thing after the hell he went through that keeps him in the sisters' orbit. Also, it takes 3 tango. You can't be swapped if you don't want to be.I  totally admit to being an Oliver fan girl. Everything most people hate about him, is just part of his ridiculousness that I love.

Edited May 23, 2014 by icandigit

[BkWurm1]

The sister swapping doesn't bother me, one of my favourite movies/books is Little Women

I HATED what happened with Jo and Amy (edited to absolve poor Beth of any wrong doing- yeah, it's been a while since I read this book) in Little Women. Hated it even more when I did a book report on and discovered that Louisa May Alcott put Laurie with Amy just to spite the fans who were plaguing her with requests to marry Jo to Laurie. (She released the book as a serial) Even before I read that I remember tossing the whole book across the room in my first WTF moment as a young reader. It made no sense to what came before or after really and in her following books both Amy and Jo's eventual husband pretty much disappear into the background.

That said, it wasn't the sister swapping aspect that I was disgusted with, it was that it didn't fit the narrative naturally IMO (one I still hold to many years later) In regards to Oliver, Laurel, and Sara it was pretty awful when he used Sara to drive a wedge between he and Laurel (even unconsciously since he was still selling the 'she'll never know" angle) but the story line made sense in setting up who Oliver was.

Then he comes back to Starling City and eventually hooks up briefly with Laurel. In that case what bugged me wasn't that he was going back to the other sister (we thought Sara was dead) but that he knew how Tommy felt about Laurel (and that Laurel had real feelings for Tommy as well) . That was a pretty shitty move IMO. But it happened, it was over.

I think it was eight months later when he and Sara fell back together and no, I wasn't disgusted with what happened under the circumstances. It was clearly destined to fall apart since neither Sara nor Oliver were mentally in the right place to be good for the other long term, but I think Oliver and Sara together at that time made sense for the story. It was a tad abrupt but not that unexpected in my mind.

I think they had a right to not immediately tell Laurel but they were complete idiots in trying to be around Laurel and hide it from her. But then no one ever said Sara or Oliver were brilliant thinkers. It was a mistake and rather thoughtless given Laurel's known issues with Sara at the time but I still wasn't at a place where I was disgusted by switching between sisters since it felt like a natural exploration of the characters. Now Sara has broken up with Oliver, recognizing that they don't bring out the best in each other. I can fully accept that even if Sara gave a half assed explanation for the break up.

What I can not accept is another round revisiting either Laurel or Sara. Neither have been written as comfortable with one night stands (Well, maybe Sara but at this point Oliver isn't one night stand material...too much baggage) and both have been shown with Oliver and IMO the show has outlined clearly why they should NOT be with each other.

Sara's line to Laurel about Oliver needing her grosses me out if I try to think of it as anything past friendship. Sisters handing off a guy between them is as icky to me as a guy going back and forth and messing with the hearts and heads of sisters. Not only does it suggest a level of callousness I find less than endearing, but it strains credulity to think either sister would be comfortable in hooking up with Oliver again. They've both thoroughly explored the possible relationship and now anything in the future will IMO feel gratuitous.

I do see signs that Laurel has built up this perfect image of Oliver in her head now that she knows he is the Arrow but for her to act on it makes her look IMO blind and regresses her back to her college days when she was fiercely ignorant of who Oliver really was and right now, that is also what I find gross when I think of any possible hook ups with Oliver. She has these IMO deluded ideas and expectations that make it feel like any kind of hook up with Oliver would not be a choice made between two equally consenting adults. Too much has happened for anything to be casual and fair going into the future.

I don't fault Oliver for the past anymore (though Helena and Isabel were both very questionable choices not to mention his college days before that ) but I think I will hold him more accountable for his future choices.

Edited May 26, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Password]

I think Laurel and Oliver have unfinished business. As much as it makes me want to hurl and throw bricks at my TV or computer screen, it certainly seems they're trying to set it up that way. I hope they can just end it once and for all, through means other than sex, and move on. They're both stuck on would a, should a, could a and it's so annoying. They have zero in common, they don't know a thing about the other. Handle it writers.

As much as I think Oliver and Sara made sense in a logical way, I still think it was compassionless of them to do that to Laurel. I mean forget Oliver, Sara that is your sister. That whole thing put me off Sara and Oliver so much to the point where I no longer felt any connection with Oliver. That's what made me dislike the second half of s2 so much. It made me dislike Oliver as a person.

[quarks]

To jump on the Little Women topic for a moment: Beth is the sickly sweet one who dies; Amy's the gold-digging little sister that gets Laurie on the rebound. Amy disappeared from later books because the woman she was based on, Alcott's youngest sister, had died, and Alcott found it painful to think about her. Also the real tragedy there isn't that Jo didn't get Laurie, but that she had to marry Professor Bhaer.  Really, Alcott? REALLY?

 

Back to the show - I'd like to think that Sara meant that Oliver needed Laurel as a friend. After all, Sara's aware that Oliver doesn't have that many friends, and has a tendency to shut himself off from people when he's emotionally upset. And his mother just died.  Combined with the jacket hand off, it's also arguable that Sara thinks that Oliver needs another fighter on his team - though putting Laurel into that position makes me kinda question that relationship.

 

Unfortunately, the history between the three made it sound as if Sara was saying, hey, if you want him again, take him with my blessing - after all, I've got Nyssa now who is even hotter. 

 

The unfinished business between Oliver and Laurel seems rather one sided to me. It took awhile, but Oliver seems to be over her. He turned her down earlier in the season, admitted that he'd always had a problem seeing her clearly, walked away from her, talked about his relationship with her sister with her and gave a slight acknowledgement that yes, he'd treated her like crap, ignored her "I've always felt drawn to you," and told her not to join Team Arrow.  Laurel, however, doesn't seem to have given up hope, so I fear we're in for some conversations there.  I'll keep my fingers crossed that the conversations happened during the hiatus.

 

I agree that Oliver regressed quite a lot in the second half of the season, returning to his old self. Hopefully the five month hiatus will improve things. We'll see.

[BkWurm1]

To jump on the Little Women topic for a moment: Beth is the sickly sweet one who dies; Amy's the gold-digging little sister that gets Laurie on the rebound. Amy disappeared from later books because the woman she was based on, Alcott's youngest sister, had died, and Alcott found it painful to think about her. Also the real tragedy there isn't that Jo didn't get Laurie, but that she had to marry Professor Bhaer. Really, Alcott? REALLY?

Ack! Edited my previous post to fix the name mix up.

Yeah, Proff Bhaer is not a good trade off for Laurie. I truly felt like Alcott was trying to punish the readers. I kept wishing in Jo's Boys and Little Men for both Bhaer and Amy to die off and the grown up Jo and Laurie to get together, lol. There was a TV adaptation that did kill off Bhaer so that was comforting to me. (If I recall Jo got the attention of some dark handsome drifter/handyman- yeah, very literary ;)

The unfinished business between Oliver and Laurel seems rather one sided to me.

That was what I was feeling as well but I am probably being too optimistic to hope we could get by without another round "exploring" it even if going back and hooking them up at this point IMO makes everyone involved look bad - Laurel weak /

delusional for thinking a relationship between them could work and Oliver cold and insensitive, like he was just using her for sex.

Edited May 26, 2014 by BkWurm1

[slayer2]

bkwurm You mean Amy right? 'Cuz Beth died :(

The sister is interesting to me, it's consensual and frankly I know sisters who've done it. I don't think it's gross, I think he definitely has a connection, fixation with the Lance family and that doesn't bother me either. I kind of just enjoy this show, I don't get too bothered about consensual sex no matter who it's between and I don't have any real expectations about it or general desires for characters. It's very refreshing to watch this show because I like Ollie above all else and I enjoy watching stories about his life, it's that simple for me.

There are characters that bug the life out of me sometimes but it's not so much that I can't enjoy the story. I like Ollie's relationship with both Lance sisters so I'm fine watching either one.

[icandigit]

I admit that I still love me some Oliver even when he's the worst. I just find him ridiculously amusing. All that guilt, remorse and speechifying only to hurt Laurel again with her sister. I shouldn't find it entertaining but i do.

[BkWurm1]

Don't get me wrong. I like Oliver. I think he's flawed and makes mistakes but he's relatable and human and I really haven't found that much fault with him this year. Last year I constantly thought of him as a hypocrite of the worst kind. Who was he to stand in judgement of those like Helena that were doing the same thing he was doing? His new stance on at least TRYING not to kill helped take that fault away.

Edited May 27, 2014 by BkWurm1

[slayer2]

I admit that I still love me some Oliver even when he's the worst. I just find him ridiculously amusing. All that guilt, remorse and speechifying only to hurt Laurel again with her sister. I shouldn't find it entertaining but i do.

There's no reason you shouldn't find it entertaining, think of the ingredients: one part built, good-looking actor, one part talented actor, one part well written show, one part crazy stunts and action= entertaining. Don't feel bad girl, I love me some Ollie too.

ETA Bkwurm his treatment of Huntress didn't bother me too much 'cuz he always seemed to look at her like he was lovesick which I kinda loved *blush*. I know what you mean though about hypocrisy because I thought Diggle going off on Huntress then being all 'faster pussycat kill, kill' about Deadshot was pushing it.

Edited May 27, 2014 by slayer2

[BkWurm1]

Yeah Diggle has his blind spots too, but at least the show gave me context for why, plus Diggle has such a fascinating "relationship" with Deadshot now.

Edited May 27, 2014 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

 

Laurel, however, doesn't seem to have given up hope, so I fear we're in for some conversations there.  I'll keep my fingers crossed that the conversations happened during the hiatus.

I doubt they will be over the hiatus, too much opportunity for Laurel/Oliver shipping to leave them off screen.  I will be happy if they are just conversations and not pillow talk.

 

I'm trying to decide which would be worse for Oliver to make a go of a relationship with next season, Laurel or the mother of his child who doubtless will return next season.

Edited May 31, 2014 by statsgirl