Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

[MissE]

I don't know MissE. To be honest, it really seems like you're twisting every thing or action into some sort of anti-Liz message from the writers, when there are enough big things from the show. Yes, they shat on Liz all summer but they're starting to turn things around.

I'm not twisting anything. Liz lost Jason, her son was hit by a car, her house blew up leaving her homeless, and now there's some random scene where the insurance company won't help her because she doesn't have a husband. Its been nothing but a huge pile up on her this week, and I fail to see how things are now turning around for her.

[ulkis]

I'm not twisting anything. Liz lost Jason, her son was hit by a car, her house blew up leaving her homeless, and now there's some random scene where the insurance company won't help her because she doesn't have a husband. Its been nothing but a huge pile up on her this week, and I fail to see how things are now turning around for her.

What about Carly and Franco saying she is a good mother? Nik rushing to her and telling her not to worry about Hayden? The nurses collecting toys and things for her? Griffin saying his heart went out to her? Do those things not count? Edited February 12, 2016 by ulkis

[MissE]

What about Carly and Franco saying she is a good mother? Nik rushing to her and telling her not to worry about Hayden? The nurses collecting toys and things for her? Griffin saying his heart went out to her? Do those things not count?

Throw away scenes don't change the actual direction of the character. They just piled more and more on her every day this week, and it doesn't look like its letting up any time soon, since they are know throwing her in the middle of Nik and Hayden.

 

Not to mention that Nik is her best friend show started all this mess, so he should be there for her. 

[UYI]

This is why I want Liz away from JaSam and part of the reason why I didn't want Jake back. Liz has been on the show how long? And STILL doesn't have a guy that loves only HER and she only loves HIM and that's, for the most part, undebatable? How is she pretty much the sole longtime character in this boat? It's crazy. I'm repetitive about this bc it's stupid to me. She shouldn't be nearing 20 years on this show and have no real love interest that's hers.

 

I think it is Lucky, even if the relationship has been damaged so much onscreen. I really believe that, even though she's had a few successful pairings since then, the show really does look at LL2 as an endgame couple. This is really is an example of what happens when the first love really is the best, and how difficult it is to find a better one after that on a soap. JJ & BH set the bar so high and at so young an age, that the show seems to think nothing else could come close for Liz (or Lucky, for that matter, not that he's had as many chances to find that out). And while fans of her other pairings will debate that, I think in this case, the show is right. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by UYI

[UYI]

At this point, I'd say that was self-sabatoging fear of abandonement. 

 

One thing about none of her immediate family seeming to have any contact with her is that that not only craps on Liz, it craps on Jeff Webber's legacy as a character, too. I wasn't born yet during that time period, but would ANYONE who watched back then believe that Jeff would go all these years without even visiting or contacting his own daughter in one way or another? Probably not. It just sometimes feels like GH's petty way of punishing Richard Dean Anderson for actually becoming famous enough that he never needs to return to GH, and so that's part of the reason they never bothered to recast Jeff. And honestly, if they were going to just never give her mother a name, maybe they should have just revealed that Jeff reunited with Annie Logan later on and she's Sarah and Liz's mother. That way, her parents would have been TWO legacy characters (and Susan Pratt stayed active in soaps; I'm sure she would have returned to play Liz's mom).

 

But then Noah wouldn't have been able to become involved with Annie off screen, and how could we POSSIBLY miss out on that? /sarcasm 

Edited February 12, 2016 by UYI

[backhometome]

JJ and Becky have such natural chemistry. Im still bitter they never reunited LnL2 when he came back. Im pretty sure JJ was under the impression that they would do a reunion. But no, they stuck him with that redhead. 

[HeatLifer]

JJ and Becky have such natural chemistry. Im still bitter they never reunited LnL2 when he came back. Im pretty sure JJ was under the impression that they would do a reunion. But no, they stuck him with that redhead.

I still cannot believe they got JJ back and wasted him on a random and had Liz behaving like Nik was the best sex and man ever.

Edited February 12, 2016 by HeatLifer

[ulkis]

I still cannot believe they got JJ back and wasted him on a random and had Liz behaving like Nik was the best sex and man ever.

 

Emmy bait is way more important than stories, or ratings! ~ Bryan Craig

[HeatLifer]

JJ is amazeballs and he's awesome, but I hated that scene he won an Emmy for. Hated it. The dialogue was disgusting and I'm never entertained watching one of my ships continuously blow up in flames.

[ulkis]

JJ is amazeballs and he's awesome, but I hated that scene he won an Emmy for. Hated it. The dialogue was disgusting and I'm never entertained watching one of my ships continuously blow up in flames.

 

I did enjoy some lines ("drunk sober; sober drunk - WHO CARES?!), but ultimately that one day of dialogue was worth nothing. Perfect example of short term satisfaction over long term. And the line about whatever happened to the girl he found lying in the snow. Gross dude. Sorry she isn't a freshly-raped teenager anymore.

[HeatLifer]

I did enjoy some lines ("drunk sober; sober drunk - WHO CARES?!), but ultimately that one day of dialogue was worth nothing. Perfect example of short term satisfaction over long term. And the line about whatever happened to the girl he found lying in the snow. Gross dude. Sorry she isn't a freshly-raped teenager anymore.

That line was offensive. And I still don't believe Lucky would ever go there.

[ulkis]

I don't know. Lucky (much like Lulu) can be very below the belt. "Maybe you need to be raped or kidnapped to feel important to someone", anyone? I don't think he ever apologized to Liz for it though, which is what makes me mad.

[backhometome]

LOL "rutting like farm animals" is possibly one of my fav. soap lines ever. It was just so hilarious. And Carly's face was hysterical. JJ did that all in one take so I thought it was amazing. But then I hated and despised Niz so I loved Lucky tearing them apart. Yes, I do agree that some lines were offensive. 

[MissE]

LOL "rutting like farm animals" is possibly one of my fav. soap lines ever. It was just so hilarious. And Carly's face was hysterical. JJ did that all in one take so I thought it was amazing. But then I hated and despised Niz so I loved Lucky tearing them apart. Yes, I do agree that some lines were offensive. 

I was done with Lucky when he basically told Liz that he wishes she was still that raped girl he found in the snow. It was so disgusting.

 

It also makes me laugh that he told Liz that her children would end up hating her one day for what she did, and in the end, he's the one who they will probably hate.

[HeatLifer]

The only guitar serenade that didn't make me want to physically use the guitar as a baseball bat.

Edited February 13, 2016 by HeatLifer

[WendyCR72]

Thanks for making me think of this, Heatlifer.

[yowsah1]

I don't know MissE. To be honest, it really seems like you're twisting every thing or action into some sort of anti-Liz message from the writers, when there are enough big things from the show. Yes, they shat on Liz all summer but they're starting to turn things around.

 

If the writers don't go the Tony Jones route of tossing Liz on the back burner, with most of the steps of her rebuilding her life taking place offscreen before they unceremoniously dump her ass, I'll believe they are turning things around.  I am cautiously optimistic at this point, but I still feel like, "Geez Louise, writers, lay off the Liz Misery Tsunami, here.  Sonny didn't go through half as much shit as she has, and he murdered a man!"

[tallyrand]

Liz lied!!! That's way worse than murder!!!and it's also way worse than niks lie!!! For uhhh...reasons!!!

Plus I just don't get liz acknowledging jason and sam's super connection. Liz didn't keep jason chained in her basement. They were attracted to each other before she knew he was jason and he knew sam at that point. Even after liz found out, she didn't keep jason and sam from spending time together. If their connection was so strong, lie or no, they would have been together. Liz didn't force jason to love her. However, I hated this iteration of liason even though old school liason is one of faves. I can't even rewatch their old scenes because this version has ruined them for me.

I also hate that it seems like liz is going from jasam to nayden. Why can't she have a story of her own?

[peachmangosteen]

I also hate that it seems like liz is going from jasam to nayden. Why can't she have a story of her own?

 

She did once that I remember, with AJ, and of fucking course they did nothing with it and then completely ruined it. Sigh.

 

I really do wish they'd just let Liz move on completely from Jason (and Sam) and even from Nik and just have s story completely of her own. It's part of why I really think they should soras Cam and do a story with him resenting her. I like Liz most when she's with her kids and I'd like to see how BH would work with a teen actor playing her son. I think there's a lot of potential there.

Edited February 13, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[tallyrand]

I don't know if I would like cam resenting her, at least not for long. For all of Liz's faults, she is the only parent that was there for him on an everyday basis. But an angry aged cam would work for me. I like Liz with her kids too which is why I have liked the past week. It's more about Liz in mom mode.

[peachmangosteen]

I like Liz with her kids too which is why I have liked the past week. It's more about Liz in mom mode.

 

Same here. 

 

But I do often times also like Liz in romances, it's just that they always get fucked over, usually for Jason. And I just can't with Jason and Liz together. Liz is at her worst imo when she's being pathetic over him. Let her move on already!

 

Oh and about the phone call with the insurance company, I didn't think that had anything to do with shitting on her for not having a man. It felt to me like them trying to explain why she's going to end up staying with Nik (I assume) rather than having the insurance company pay for a rental or hotel or something. 

Edited February 13, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[LeftPhalange]

I'll be in my corner not wishing for a Liez and Lucky reunion. Mainly because I like Lucky and think Liez is sketch, but also because I'm sure they would just be slapped back together without seriously dealing with all of their issues. The writers would have to give me a reason to believe she won't start sniffing around someone else before I could ever find that pairing tolerable again. 

[yowsah1]

Liz didn't keep jason chained in her basement. They were attracted to each other before she knew he was jason and he knew sam at that point. Even after liz found out, she didn't keep jason and sam from spending time together.

Which brings me to another beef I had with this stupid lie story, to wit: If Liz was so crazy-ass paranoid about Jason remembering and her lie being exposed, why didn't she, I dunno, MOVE OUT OF TOWN WITH JASON?!?!

Answer: Because the people who write this dreck are IDIOTS.

[Oracle42]

Liz lied!!! That's way worse than murder!!!and it's also way worse than niks lie!!! For uhhh...reasons!!!

Well, either the lie wasn't that out of character, was NBD and everyone should just get over it - or it was damaging to the character and needs to be addressed.

Nik's lie to Jason wasn't as bad. Nik gives zero fucks about Jason; Liz is supposed to love him - that is worse.

Now, what Nik did to his cousin? That was just as bad and this thing with Hayden is absolutely vile.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Oracle42

[tallyrand]

Of course Liz's lie should be addressed. But I am waiting for Niks lie to get even a fraction of the attention Liz's has gotten. It's really unbelievable to me how much his role has been glossed over. We all thought nik would be throw under the bus for Liz and it turned out to be the exact opposite.

[Oracle42]

I can't even look at Nik right now. He's so completely repulsive that I wouldn't miss him if they killed him off tomorrow. I'd just be depressed by the way RC destroyed him.

I do think this story about Helena's will is supposed to be his comeuppance but the idea that Hayden is at all conflicted about him? is so gross and baseless that I just can't watch their scenes together

Edited February 13, 2016 by Oracle42

[KerleyQ]

Of course Liz's lie should be addressed. But I am waiting for Niks lie to get even a fraction of the attention Liz's has gotten. It's really unbelievable to me how much his role has been glossed over. We all thought nik would be throw under the bus for Liz and it turned out to be the exact opposite.

 

I always knew Liz would be the one thrown under the bus.  The men never pay on this show (unless they are Sonny opponents).  And the first time they had Nik/Hayden interacting, it was pretty clear that Nik was going to come out of this all with a new bed mate, while Liz would be the one who lost.  

[Oracle42]

I really think that a lot of their refusal to write consequences for Nik has to do with their desire to push a pairing with Rebecca Budig as a 'Cassadine Princess' - which they can't do if they acknowledge that he's trash right now.  I don't know how these assholes had the nerve to compare this nonsense to Luke/Laura while completely missing the loooong redemption story they gave Luke and the fact that the people he'd wronged were allowed to be legitimately angry with him 

[ulkis]

The problem is Nik has no friends anymore. The only people talking to him are his mom, Liz, and Hayden, so it's not like people are cool with him.

Nik should be forced to do community service at the hospital somehow.

Edited February 14, 2016 by ulkis

[dubbel zout]

He'd just donate a bunch of money to get out of it. 

[peachmangosteen]

I think, in Liz's mind, the difference is money (and scheming involving $). Ric not only lied to her, he paid Hayden to go to Liz's house and come between her and Jakeson. He gave Hayden false documents to make the scheme believable. I think Elizabeth believes Hayden is also now attached to Nikolas for money (pre-nup or no pre-nup) and underhanded schemes.  Liz believes she loved/loves Jason, and that was all that mattered.  She believes herself to be protective of her BFF, Nikolas.

This beautifully illustrates the worst part of Liz imo; she believes herself to be better than everyone and she thinks everything she does is justified. She's always judging everyone and getting up on her high horse when she has absolutely no leg to stand on. She's basically Carly at this point. Except to me she's even more irritating because she presents herself as an angel and most people treat her like she is one. UGH I can't.

[Oracle42]

Yeah, the idea that Ric paying to change Jason's medical records is somehow worse than her using her position as a nurse to change Sam's maternity test for free - just does not compute

[Darklazr]

JJ and Becky have such natural chemistry. Im still bitter they never reunited LnL2 when he came back. Im pretty sure JJ was under the impression that they would do a reunion. But no, they stuck him with that redhead. 

 

I will never understand why the show did not write a story where we see a dirty and bearded man held captive on CI and the camera zooms in and we see Lucky/JJ's face.  Hey, but at least we got those gross ass Niz love scenes!  TC was huge and poor BH in those love scenes.

[ulkis]

I don't think it's a sign of dislike or anything that they never brought Liz's mom on. I mean, did we ever get Anna or Robert's parents, Felicia or Frisco's, or Duke's, etc? I do think it's weird we haven't HEARD more about the mom, maybe have Liz lament they were never close, or kill her off off-screen or something.

[Oracle42]

The only reason Sam has a father is because RC wanted WdV - who isn't a good fit for the role in terms of age/attitude. He rarely interacts with Sam, they never bothered playing out the history with Duke/Anna in a meaningful way and the only reason RC made him her father was to tie him to the canvas via Sam/Alexis - same reason he has a kid with Olivia and Ava has one with Sonny. RC was determined to tie them to the canvas and apparently decided Lucas (who?) wasn't enough

I think part of the lack of investment in Liz was due to GV's Lucky. Liz had story when paired with Jason, Nik and JJ's Lucky but the writers (mature female writers included) have developed a terrible tendency of writing male centered stories. Even the Alexis/Sam reveal was more about Ric and Jason than Alexis/Sam

And Liz played second fiddle to Umily (who had tons of story) for years. Most of the past 13 years Liz and Sam weren't even in the same circles.

I still think it would make sense to bring back Steven and Sarah . Kill off Jeff since RDA is never coming back and use his death to bring the family back to settle his affairs

Edited February 18, 2016 by Oracle42

[HeatLifer]

I don't think it's a sign of dislike or anything that they never brought Liz's mom on.

It's not about active dislike, IMO. I think it's what I mentioned in the episode thread. Some characters are favored over others. Those characters will get more friends, family, the love interest, the story. Other characters, on the other hand, are there for a variety of reasons. To either bring the drama to the main character, to act as "the friend" to the main character, to act as "the enemy" to the main character, etc.

[ulkis]

It's not about active dislike, IMO. I think it's what I mentioned in the episode thread. Some characters are favored over others. Those characters will get more friends, family, the love interest, the story. Other characters, on the other hand, are there for a variety of reasons. To either bring the drama to the main character, to act as "the friend" to the main character, to act as "the enemy" to the main character, etc.

 

True, but I think things just work out by circumstance too. I don't think, when they made Sam Alexis' daughter, "and in 10 years, when Kristina and Molly are SORASed Sam will have a whole coven to support her!" They wanted to plug Sam in somewhere because she was a semi-flop of a character who they wanted to make more connected to the show. Liz didn't need to be connected via parents. Plus, a lot of it is just bad luck. If JJ stayed, if Rachel Ames wanted to come on GH more often, if Emily hadn't been killed off, if Jason Thompson and Kim McC hadn't left the show, if both incarnations of Sarah hadn't flopped, all those people would probably be supporting Liz right now too.

 

I don't think it's cause Sam is so favored that she has a bunch of family and Liz doesn't. Maybe a bit, but mostly, I think a lot of it is just luck.

[HeatLifer]

True, but I think things just work out by circumstance too. I don't think, when they made Sam Alexis' daughter, "and in 10 years, when Kristina and Molly are SORASed Sam will have a whole coven to support her!" They wanted to plug Sam in somewhere because she was a semi-flop of a character who they wanted to make more connected to the show. Liz didn't need to be connected via parents. Plus, a lot of it is just bad luck. If JJ stayed, if Rachel Ames wanted to come on GH more often, if Emily hadn't been killed off, if Jason Thompson and Kim McC hadn't left the show, if both incarnations of Sarah hadn't flopped, all those people would probably be supporting Liz right now too.

I don't think it's cause Sam is so favored that she has a bunch of family and Liz doesn't. Maybe a bit, but mostly, I think a lot of it is just luck.

Everything you said is accurate. Of course a lot of stuff can be chalked up to circumstance (actors' departures, like you mentioned). But, regardless of all that, at some point, the writers have the ability to rectify that. They haven't.

At the end of the day, as far as Sam, Sam IS the favored character over Liz and over pretty much every female character minus Carly. She was favored over ROBIN, for fuck's sake. It's not a Sam v. Liz thing. It's the way this show has been written for years. Sam is the female lead. It is what it is.

[WendyCR72]

Of course the writers can rectify Liz's family issues. But both Sarah and Steve(n Lars) have been cast twice and BOTH versions of each have flopped. (Which is the fault of said hacks.) But with two strikes, I don't see any third being a charm. Not with these hacks, whom are no better than the prior hacks and so on.

 

So - if BH stays (which I am seriously doubting now) - why not cast Liz's mother? As was said, she is a total blank down to the name and, aside from being in the medical field, not a thing is known about her. You'd think any regime would be all over that.

[Ambrosefolly]

I can't even look at Nik right now. He's so completely repulsive that I wouldn't miss him if they killed him off tomorrow. I'd just be depressed by the way RC destroyed him.

I do think this story about Helena's will is supposed to be his comeuppance but the idea that Hayden is at all conflicted about him? is so gross and baseless that I just can't watch their scenes together

Sorry to get off topic, but I think the destruction of Nik happened under Guza when Tyler returned in 2003 it really hit it stride when he had the affair with Liz.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[Oracle42]

Nik being selfish and gross about women wasn't new. The fact that he would pursue a relationship that would hurt his brother was a new low but it wasn't really out of bounds for him

[UYI]

I don't think it's a sign of dislike or anything that they never brought Liz's mom on. I mean, did we ever get Anna or Robert's parents, Felicia or Frisco's, or Duke's, etc? I do think it's weird we haven't HEARD more about the mom, maybe have Liz lament they were never close, or kill her off off-screen or something.

 

IMO, it stands out more because she was specifically brought on as a legacy character from a core family, whereas none of those other characters were (and remember, Steve/John Beradino had already been dead for a year when she and Sarah were introduced, so it's clear that keeping the Hardy name alive via some newly created granddaughters was on the show's mind at the time). People KNEW who her father was back in the day (along with her grandfather Steve and her Uncle Rick) because he was on the show, so to just not ever mention who he married and had Liz and Sarah with is, in this particular case, jarring as fuck in a way it wouldn't have been with the others, because it makes it seem like Steve failed Jeff as a parent or something, and like he and his wife don't give two wet farts about their youngest daughter for some inexplicable reason, and haven't since she was fifteen years old. At least Frisco (briefly) and Felicia eventually returned for Maxie!

 

And actually, I think Frisco and Tony's parents were mentioned--they were killed offscreen before either of them were on the show, and Frisco originally blamed Tony for their death. And Felicia at least had her grandmother, Mariah. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by UYI

[Darklazr]

I remember reading once that Frons did not see the appeal of Elizabeth/BH and that has continued to this day.  Maybe it's because BH is so shy and just goes with whatever they need for her to do on the show.  Regardless, RC/FV had the chance to bring on either one of her parents, Tom, Simone, Tommy Jr., Mike Webber, Sarah or Steven Lars in hospital based stories, but instead we see endless dead folks showing up every other month.

 

Guza sent Sarah packing when he returned to the show in 2002 and instead of waiting a few more years and having Liz's mother show up he decided to bring on Steven Lars/SR.  

 

To her credit, Elizabeth is a survivor that has managed to have a life without parents, siblings or cousins, just her 86 year old Grams and three small boys.

[Ambrosefolly]

Weren't Robert's parents also killed off? And they did bring in Mac, his brother and Robin wasn't some prop like Clark, Andy and Jasus Jr.

 

I also don't think it wasn't anything personal against ReHe. I don't think they particularly favor KeMo. I remember what they did to her character between 2006-2007 when KeMo was deciding to renew her contract. But they went to a lot of work to try to make the character happen and figured the best way was to tie her to someone on the canvas and Alexis and Sam had an antagonist relationship and they liked the plot twist, and Alexis has a lot of family on screen and RC/FV decided to connect her to the Jeromes so now she is related to most of the canvas. Lucky for everyone that and the success of JaSam finally did the trick.

 

It was fine when Emily was alive, Lucky was on canvas, and before she started fucking Nik. Then Patrick came on board and Robin returned. Now Em is died, Lucky is off reining in his darkness, her relationship with Nik has gotten really weird post affair and Jasus secret, and Scrubs have moved away,  and her kids never age, so  her isolation has become more apparent.

 

Guza sent Sarah packing when he returned to the show in 2002 and instead of waiting a few more years and having Liz's mother show up he decided to bring on Steven Lars/SR.  

And on paper, that wasn't the wrong move. GH needed more male doctors and Steve Lars was born on show and wasn't an insta-kid like Liz (she earned her place, but that what she was) and with Rachel Ames I think having gone by that time or on her way to full retirement, GH needed a resurgence of the Webber/Hardys. They just so completely botched it that it felt like a waste.  

[stlbf]

How can you not take it a bit personally as a BH/Liz fan? The show has given Sam (a character who came on as a con artist) multiple family members, including a brother they killed off and made him an adopted sibling, tied her to the Cassadines and the Jeromes, given her ties to the Corinthi and Quartermaines and even made her pals with Spinelli.

Liz? She has acquired children. And has perhaps can call Felix and Sabrina friends. She has Laura around every once in awhile. She had Robin, but she has been dead/kidnapped multiple times over the years. Patrick, but now he and Robin are gone. Steven Lars is in prison for a moronic reason. Sarah is in California, I think. Her parents are still MIA. Liz should have cousins, but we haven't heard a peep about them. Lucky isn't coming back anytime soon. Lulu rarely remembers that Liz and her boys are in her family. So this has left Nik and the never seen, 90 year old Gram as Liz's support system. What a load of horseshit.

What really annoys me is that Liz should've had a bigger attachment to the Qs. And Jake has nothing to do with it. Liz and Emily were BFFs since their early teens. Liz didn't have a mother and spent tons of time with the Qs. Emily was Cam's godmother. So I find it hard to believe that Monica wouldn't have been like a second mother to Liz. And that she would want to stay more involved in Liz's and the boys' lives, after Emily's death. And this would've been made some great drama with Jason's return and Liz's hiding of it.

[Oracle42]

It's not like being related to Ava, Julian and fuckin' Kiki is some kind of benefit to Sam. The only one who isn't worthless is Lucas and he should be a bigger part of the Maxie/Lulu family group but he's got Teh Gays so he spends all his time in a bubble

Liz's maternal figures during her young adulthood were her grandmother, Bobbie and Laura. Monica might've cared about her as Emily's friend but I'd call shenanigans on her as a maternal figure to Liz. For one thing, she was her boss - for another, she loved her kids but she was even less maternal than Tracy and she was wrapped up in her own life.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Oracle42

[stlbf]

It's not like being related to Ava, Julian and fuckin' Kiki is some kind of benefit to Sam. The only one who isn't worthless is Lucas and he should be a bigger part of the Maxie/Lulu family group but he's got Teh Gays so he spends all his time in a bubble

Liz's maternal figures during her young adulthood were her grandmother, Bobbie and Laura. Monica might've cared about her as Emily's friend but I'd call shenanigans on her as a maternal figure to Liz. For one thing, she was her boss - for another, she lived her kids but she was even less maternal than Tracy

Hey, at least Kiki can show up to a Sam family event. Julian can give Sam work, if she wantes. Ava? She can give Sam a deal on some new art. Or she too could hire Sam for protection. Which would be the smartest thing for Ava to do. Like Sonny is going to try some thing to take Ava down if Sam is around. Since she is a mother to a sainted dead baby, sister to his brother in law, his children, and his niece. A cousin to his nephew and is the wife to his life partner, St Jasus.

Lucas's life is a hellish wasteland stuck in Gaytown part of PC, with daytrips into Carlyworld. It is insane that he is not completely involved in Maxie's life. Since they were practically raised as siblings their entire lives.

And I have to disagree with you about Monica not being very maternal. Especially with Emily. And I think that after Emily's death, she would still be close to Emily's closest friends. Since Em and Liz were like sisters and Liz worked with Monica at the same hospital it would be even more likely they would be close. And factor in Liz's relationship with Jason. Laura was away in Crazytown for the better part of a decade or more. Most of that out of PC. And Bobbie moved away for years. Leaving Liz, with only her aged Gram. Nope. Monica should've always been closer. It would've only intensified the whole Jason lie and left no excuse for the crappy non reaction from Monica we were treated to see.

Edited February 18, 2016 by stlbf

[peachmangosteen]

How can you not take it a bit personally as a BH/Liz fan?

I definitely understand taking it personally if you're a Liz/BH fan. I would, too. I mean it's pretty obvious that the writers don't particularly care about using Liz as anything more than a tool for other stories. But what I don't really get is blaming it on KeMo/Sam.

 

So I find it hard to believe that Monica wouldn't have been like a second mother to Liz. And that she would want to stay more involved in Liz's and the boys' lives, after Emily's death. And this would've been made some great drama with Jason's return and Liz's hiding of it.

I think that's less about the writer's feelings on Liz and more about their feelings on Monica, of which they apparently have none. They have no use for Monica at all really.

 

And that reminded me that while it's annoying and frustrating for Liz/BH fans that she's so marginalized, it's not like she's alone. The writers don't give a shit about like 80% of the characters/actors!

Edited February 18, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[KerleyQ]

But who's actually blaming KeMo/Sam?  It's the writers.  They've decided that KeMo/Sam is their "star" and they've, at times, used Liz to prop her stories, to be the "bad guy" to provide angst for her relationship.  Yes, they trashed Sam when they were convinced KeMo was leaving.  But, once she was sticking around, they built her right back up to the perfect everything.  And they've done it a couple times on Liz's back.  To contrast, when they ruin Liz, they just let her drift back to scenery for a while, until they need to use her again as a prop for someone else's story.  

 

For example - Sam sits by and watches Liz's kid get kidnapped, taunts her that he's probably dead, and then terrorizes her and her kids with some rent-a-thugs.  But, of course, she ends up helping save Jake once they decided to build Sam back up, and eventually she gets Jason back and all is good.  Does anyone think there is some moment coming where Liz saves Danny somehow?  Where she's given the time to make amends to people?  Even if Becky does stay, that just won't happen.  

 

Again, not KeMo's fault, not Sam's fault (Sam being a fictional character and all who is controlled entirely by the whim of the writing staff), but the writers.  People are comparing the way the writers treat the two, not saying that KeMo (who, from all accounts, is pretty good friends with BH) is somehow to blame.  

[stlbf]

I definitely understand taking it personally if you're a Liz/BH fan. I would, too. I mean it's pretty obvious that the writers don't particularly care about using Liz as anything more than a tool for other stories. But what I don't really get is blaming it on KeMo/Sam.

Sam gets it because she is insanely getting a huge amount of the always limited female air time on this show. Sure that is all on the writers and the higher ups. But it is crazy at how much the character is on. Even when not on screen, Alexis is usually talking about Sam, Sam's hardships, Sam's husband, Sam's father, Sam's child, etc. Sam's sisters talk about Sam and her life. Liz talks about Sam, either as a home wrecker or now it is about how wonderful she is to Jake. The woman has been reimagined multiple times. All trying to keep the character worthy for her next story. The character get the benefit and it should drive every fan nuts. Centering a soap on the same 3 or 4 characters consistently over long periods of time is not a good thing. It just smacks of laziness and it makes everything pretty bland. Who wants to see the same people do similar crap, over and over? Sonny/Carly/Jason/Sam. Lather, rinse, repeat. And swap Courtney for Sam and you have the previous stupid quad from hell.

I think that's less about the writer's feelings on Liz and more about their feelings on Monica, of which they apparently have none. They have no use for Monica at all really.

And that reminded me that while it's annoying and frustrating for Liz/BH fans that she's so marginalized, it's not like she's alone. The writers don't give a shit about like 80% of the characters/actors!

Monica is "old". So nobody cares about what she does, right? (*CourtneyEyeRoll*)

Quad storylines are moronic, lazy and should actually be banned from the show if they last more than a couple of months. I wish that some genius higher up would challenge the writers to write a year of shows where no 2 or 3 people rule the show. Where families have actual family contact. People have to have more than one friend. That would force the show to develop more than 4 characters and their enablers.