The Clinton Affair

[sskrill]

Didn't see a topic for this anywhere else.  3 night series airing on A&E

I was kind of young when all this was going on, so I don't remember a lot of it, so far its been pretty informative. 

I used to have a lot of sympathy for Monica Lewinsky, but after last nights episode, not so much.  I just thought she was young and allowed a situation to spiral into something she couldn't handle, I didn't realize she was equally aggressive toward him.  She does seem to have matured a lot but she doesn't deserve to label herself a victim.

So what would it take for Hilary to actually leave him?  Nothing, I guess.

[MissT]

I feel the same way as you.  She’s not a victim.  She knew exactly what she was doing.  She deserves to have the life she wants, but she made those horrible decisions.  I absolutely think he was disgusting and wrong.   Though I voted for him twice, I think he is a cad and a womanizer.  As much as people hate on Hillary, he embarrassed her and Chelsey. 

[MsTree]

When did she say she was a victim?  I didn't get that feeling from her at all.  I thought she was just telling her story because now that she's mature & can look back, she's able to discuss all the details without any finger pointing.

[JudyObscure]

I'm fascinated with this, but also confused and not sure what to think about anyone. 

 Monica:  My gut response is to like her, partly  because of  superficial things. I like her voice and I find her very beautiful to look at, plus I appreciate her honesty and her intelligence.  What I don't like is her emphasis on the fact that she was only 22.  I was 22 once myself, but I don't remember being sure I deserved to be handed a fabulous job just because I was pretty and I was never ever so naïve as to think of a powerful man as my boyfriend just because I had had some fumbling sex with him in a closet.  I'm amazed when she talks about getting mad at him and threatening him when he doesn't come through for her with a good job or more time and attention.  After the election and a few months in Pentagon exile , most young women would have had the light dawn for them that the brief encounter was over and they should move on. 

Just once, I hope we get to hear Monica admit that he was never her boyfriend, due to the fact that  he was married to someone else.  She was old enough to know she was breaking a basic societal rule and in the process hurting, Hillary and Chelsea, plus putting lots of other people in awkward and risky positions.  I am  disgusted at the way she and Clinton put that poor secretary in the middle of their sleazy stuff.  She was a dignified White House secretary and they made her cover up and lie for their activities like a madam in a brothel.

Starr:  As a Democrat, I heard nothing but bad things about him at the time and was taught to think of him as a witch hunter -- but he doesn't seem that bad to me now.

Hillary:  I'm a fan who admired and voted for her.  I thought it was fine that she stayed married to Bill for whatever reasons, be they her history with him, their friendship beyond the sex stuff,  their long ideological connection, or whatever.  She didn't owe the world a divorce, it was her own business.  I do think it's a rotten shame that her political career has twice been damaged severely by a man's inability to keep it in his pants, first Bill's  and then Anthony Weiner's.

What I wish I understood better about Hillary was the whole, "She lied!"  White Water and the Rose Law firm.  It all went by too fast for me. Michael Moore's "Sicko" did not portray her well and people who worked closely with her don't seem to like her very much.  I think a little  less of her the more I learn about her.

Linda Tripp:   I don't for one minute think she was concerned about the country when she betrayed Monica's confidence.  I think she thought she was going to get rich and famous with her scandalous story.  Such a pretty little house, though!  I did think it was interesting that Monica first told her about the affair in the Pentagon cafeteria.  I worked there in the 90's and heard things I probably shouldn't have heard in the cafeteria all the time.  Too much coffee and too many competitive people trying to impress each other,  I guess.

Mr. and Mrs. Lewinsky: They seem like such fine people, they  may end up being the only people I still like when the documentary is over.

James Carville:  Still talks a mile a minute. Still Looks like a snapping turtle. 

[Sarahsmile416]

I’m really enjoying this, admittedly.  

I was a young tween/teenager when Clinton was president in the 90s, so all of these things I barely understood back then (Whitewater, etc) I am understanding better now. 

I have a little more sympathy for Monica than some of you do, but she is very insistent about the “only 22” part of it. I think the part that disturbs me is her lack of concern for Hillary and Chelsea. I don’t think she mentioned them once.  You know you’re engaging in a relationship with a married man and you can’t be bothered to show any concern for his wife and child.  It doesn’t surprise me that she lacked awareness about their relationship because I definitely didn’t show the best judgment or awareness about my relationships when I was that age.  

Linda Tripp and the conservative journalist whose name escapes my notice. Both self serving assholes.  Nothing else to say about them.

Paula Jones - I refuse to believe she is that innocent to not know what “conservative” meant.  Do I believe that Clinton had an affair with her? No doubt. But I’m kind of skeptical that it was the way she described it.

Bill Clinton - great president no doubt, but just a very flawed man. My esteem for him has pretty much hit rock bottom. He really is a piece of shit. Though I’m not a huge fan of Hillary as a person, she deserved so much better.

[sadie]

I remember some of this from when I was younger. I find it fascinating to watch now thru the “times up” lens we now have. I too disliked Monica and still do. I too kept listening for one smidgen of remorse that she was carrying on with a married man with a young child, nope it was all about her. Her own descriptions of how she very thoughtfully planned to lie and cover this up certainly did not make her seem like some innocent victim, she had full agency throughout this and it wasn’t until the FBI showed up and she realized she wasn’t the smartest person in the room anymore that she panicked and fell apart. I have ZERO sympathy for her. 

That said, the way Hilary went after her would never fly today in terms of victim shaming. Frankly, except for Monica’s parents who seemed like nice people I didn’t find anyone to root for, okay maybe add Buddy the dog to my list.

Monica was a home wrecker that wanted to think the most powerful man in the world was in wuv with her (ugh the ego), Clinton was/is obviously an unrepentant womanizer, Hilary is an unlikable attack dog and Linda Tripp is the woman you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy. 

[formerlyfreedom]

Just a reminder - the same rules apply as far as politics go in the Specials, TV Movies, and Other One-Offs - what's up for discussion is what is on the show. Personal politics is not on topic, and will be removed. Thank you.

[sskrill]

Following up:

Monica - I don't dislike her but I'm not a fan either.  I agree that she doesn't seem to have any interest in how this (e?)affected anyone but her.  The man had a young child and she has yet to mention her at all - no sense of guilt from her that I can see.  And I wonder why she continues to do these interviews.  "I want to put it all behind me."  Followed by "Sure, I'll do a 6 hour interview 20 years later!" 

Starr - I have to admit I was surprised to find him not necessarily likable, but not unlikable.

Tripp -  Ugly and unlikable.  Sleazebag. That's all.

Paula Jones -  Is she as dumb as I think she is, or is the accent making her sound moreso?

I can't really say anything bad about the conservative journalist - that was her job - and she seemed to have a very professional mindset.

Carville: He's so annoying and unattractive but for some reason I have always had a weird crush on him. 

Other thoughts:

The talk of the Clintons murdering Foster and others - if they were those people it seems Monica would have had an "accident" a long time ago.

I don't care for either Clinton, but I did vote for both of them at some point.

Omg - Sam Donaldson ... I forgot about Spock.

[JudyObscure]

11 hours ago, sskrill said:

Paula Jones -  Is she as dumb as I think she is, or is the accent making her sound moreso?

Paula is neither a smart nor well educated woman  and to me,  that makes it so much worse the way she was used by Bill Clinton, the Starr office, the elves, the journalists, her own lawyers, and the comedians of the day.  Poor thing just wanted to do her job and go home to her husband and not be known as a liar who invented stuff for attention.

(ITA with your post.)

[Sarahsmile416]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Paula is neither a smart nor well educated woman  and to me,  that makes it so much worse the way she was used by Bill Clinton, the Starr office, the elves, the journalists, her own lawyers, and the comedians of the day.  Poor thing just wanted to do her job and go home to her husband and not be known as a liar who invented stuff for attention.

(ITA with your post.)

I totally agree that she was used, without a doubt.  My perception of her is a woman who wanted to be much more important than she actually was.  Listening to her description of the deposition made me cringe inwardly.  How she “stared” Clinton down and how upset she seemed to be that he didn’t say what she wanted him to say.  In my head I couldn’t help but feel sorry for her.  

[Karen885]

I just heard about this show yesterday and really want to watch it. I thought bit would be replaying but nope. And it is only on demand until 11/23.  I don't understand A&E. They will play storage wars on loop forever but won't replay a good show more than once?

[Ubiquitous]

I heard about this special but haven't been able to sit thru all three three-hour eps, but I did watch a little last night and recorder it on the DVR. What little I watched reminded me of how things went down and what the Clintons do to people who cross them. OTOH, I found Monica likable after what I heard and saw. I guess with age comes wisdom and retrospect?

[sskrill]

13 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Paula is neither a smart nor well educated woman  and to me,  that makes it so much worse the way she was used by Bill Clinton, the Starr office, the elves, the journalists, her own lawyers, and the comedians of the day.  Poor thing just wanted to do her job and go home to her husband and not be known as a liar who invented stuff for attention.

Yeah, I would put a lot of the blame on her lawyers.  They knew who he was, they knew the power he had, all they were doing was setting her up to take a fall.  It was always going to be he-said /she-said and in this case even if everyone believed her, it wouldn't matter.  They should have just said "we believe you but this won't end well".

[KeeperOfTheIce]

I was in my mid 20’s when this hit the news and really didn’t  pay much attention to it. I remember her as a victim, someone Clinton took full advantage of.   I found it surprising that she was just as much to blame as he was for the affair and knew exactly what she was doing.  The other thing that surprised me was that the affair lasted for so long - what 2 years???  I seem to remember the news making the affair sound  like it was only a couple of chance encounters.  

[MsTree]

On 11/20/2018 at 8:25 AM, sadie said:

I too disliked Monica and still do. I too kept listening for one smidgen of remorse that she was carrying on with a married man with a young child, nope it was all about her. Her own descriptions of how she very thoughtfully planned to lie and cover this up certainly did not make her seem like some innocent victim, she had full agency throughout this and it wasn’t until the FBI showed up and she realized she wasn’t the smartest person in the room anymore that she panicked and fell apart. I have ZERO sympathy for her. 

Why should Monica show any (or more) remorse over Bill? He lied over & over about the affair...and doubt he was sorry. He wanted to be with her as much as she wanted to be with him, and as we all know, it takes two to tango.

The reason why she tried to cover it up at first is because she really cared about Bill and didn't want to bring him down/tarnish his presidency. And she still feels that way to this day.

I'm glad she decided to be part of this series. It gave me more insight into the story. She was slut-shamed before those words even entered our vocabulary.

[Janc]

8 hours ago, MsTree said:

I'm glad she decided to be part of this series. It gave me more insight into the story. She was slut-shamed before those words even entered our vocabulary.

Agree with this.  Could not believe those cartoons they showed of her - so terrible!  

[sadie]

12 hours ago, MsTree said:

Why should Monica show any (or more) remorse over Bill? He lied over & over about the affair...and doubt he was sorry. He wanted to be with her as much as she wanted to be with him, and as we all know, it takes two to tango.

The reason why she tried to cover it up at first is because she really cared about Bill and didn't want to bring him down/tarnish his presidency. And she still feels that way to this day.

I'm glad she decided to be part of this series. It gave me more insight into the story. She was slut-shamed before those words even entered our vocabulary.

I guess I wasn’t very clear. I meant any remorse for carrying on with a married man. This also wasn’t her first affair with a married man. I loathe cheaters, yes Clinton was equally to blame, plenty of blame to go around with both of them. I just felt she didn’t come across as sympathetic if that’s what they were aiming for. If she didn’t want to contribute to bringing him shame she shouldn’t have gotten involved with him in such a moral less way, there was an entitlement there I didn’t like.

[Yeah No]

I was 40 years old at the time of this scandal so I was well aware of it, but I learned more in depth things from this documentary that I didn't know before, like the incredible extent to which Monica pursued Bill, and the way he encouraged her infatuation by sending her gifts, etc.  I have to say I felt more sorry for her anyway after watching this, mostly because I realized how sheltered and naive she was, especially to trust Linda Tripp with all that personal and damaging info.   I grew up on the streets of NYC and even at a much younger age I would have been able to take one look at Tripp and know I could never trust her with anything that personal and potentially damaging to myself and the other party.  How reckless of Bill to fall into something so risky with someone he really didn't know he could trust to be discreet.  I don't condone the relationship at all, but neither of them was using any common sense whatsoever.  The stakes were so high that even if it was an irresistible flirtation one would think Bill could control himself even if she couldn't.  He was the elder, more mature, supposedly more responsible person in the relationship, so I still put more of the responsibility on him.  People flirt with famous and powerful married people all the time but it's the flirtee's responsibility to know how to handle them, especially when that flirtee is the POTUS.  My personal instinct is that Bill had ceased connecting sexually that much with Hillary and they stayed together mostly for other reasons, which left him more vulnerable to the advances of a cute young intern.  But still, no matter, he should have known better.  In my opinion, this is a very sad story.

At the time I also never got over how people just didn't care about this scandal and how Bill was so "teflon" that nothing stuck to him.  Even then this made no sense to me.  Plus I hated the way people bashed Monica and treated her like a slut or whatever.  She definitely didn't deserve what she got.  If this happened today this would probably have had a very different outcome.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Yeah No

[chick binewski]

On 11/20/2018 at 8:10 AM, JudyObscure said:

I am  disgusted at the way she and Clinton put that poor secretary in the middle of their sleazy stuff.  She was a dignified White House secretary and they made her cover up and lie for their activities like a madam in a brothel.

Starr:  As a Democrat, I heard nothing but bad things about him at the time and was taught to think of him as a witch hunter -- but he doesn't seem that bad to me now.

****

Linda Tripp:   I don't for one minute think she was concerned about the country when she betrayed Monica's confidence.  I think she thought she was going to get rich and famous with her scandalous story.  Such a pretty little house, though!  I did think it was interesting that Monica first told her about the affair in the Pentagon cafeteria.  I worked there in the 90's and heard things I probably shouldn't have heard in the cafeteria all the time.  Too much coffee and too many competitive people trying to impress each other,  I guess.

Mr. and Mrs. Lewinsky: They seem like such fine people, they  may end up being the only people I still like when the documentary is over.

The use of Betty Currie really bothered me as well. I know she ended up taking Socks (the cat) when the Clintons left office and donated to Hillary's campaign, so she must not have too many hard feelings. But who wants to be that kind of footnote in history? And Vernon Jordan has nothing better to do with his time than get Monica a job? That's the thing with these scandals - everyone else has to run around fixing crap that their boss shouldn't have done in the first place.

To me, Starr seemed like a much more thoughtful and measured person than I had expected. I'm not sure if that's due to his age or mine.  

I do wish Tripp had been interviewed. She has sounded more reasonable in interviews than she does on those awful tapes. She's said Monica needed to see herself as the girlfriend but was perceived as a groupie by everyone else, and that she (Tripp) felt sorry for her regarding that. But this show made a reference that implied some sort of personal connection to Vince Foster, and his death was some kind of final straw for her. I wish the show had expanded on that.

I also think Lewinsky's parents came off very well, especially considering how they've had to listen to their daughter being spoken about for the past 20+ years. But I was interested in knowing more about how Monica's mother was threatened with legal action.

I've always been sympathetic towards Monica because I felt she was exposed in a way she did not deserve. But by the end of this I still found her a bit oblivious regarding the overall situation. This may be due in part to the fact I think she is still in love (or something she thinks is love) with Clinton. She (along with a great number of other people) didn't seem to want to assign Clinton the blame that he deserves. 

Lewinsky was allowed to sort of gloss over the fact she discussed Clinton with her former (or current - it wasn't really clear) lover, despite the fact she repeatedly said Tripp was her only confidant. I have always believed someone working for Clinton got the drama teacher story out, but Lewinsky did not address that and I get the feeling it's not something she'd want to explore too deeply. Lewinsky also didn't want to be associated with the Jones case; I inferred from her interview she did not find Jones credible. But there was Willey and Jane Doe #5 and so many stories swimming around Clinton well before the election. What did Monica think then and what does she think now after being disregarded by Clinton? Do any of those accusations hold more weight to her now?

Edited December 2, 2018 by chick binewski

[catlover79]

I am so glad I didn't watch this with my folks. It would have been way too uncomfortable to hear those terms spoken aloud while being in the same room as my dad. Thank goodness for DVRs. 😂

When the scandal first erupted, I was a senior in high school. I think I was well into my first year of college before things started to settle down. Unfortunately, I share the same first name as the former intern, so I heard my fair share of jokes. "So, where's Bill?" is about the tamest one I heard. Actually, to this day, when I meet a new Monica/Monika, the first thing I ask her is if she was teased during the whole Clinton/Lewinsky scandal. The answer is always YES. Then we commiserate. It opens up a dialogue.

Another funny memory is around Christmas of 1998, I went shopping with my mother at BJ's Wholesale (write your own joke). I was looking in the book section and they had a paperback copy of the Ken Starr report. Attached to it was a tag that said, "Makes a great Christmas gift!" I couldn't stop laughing.