My Brilliant Friend - General Discussion

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

Maybe they cast real people to save on cast budget?

Or to get real Neopolitans to try that obscure dialect?

I'm not sure that many Neapolitans speak the dialect these days.  The younger generations in my northern region of Trentino don't grow up speaking the local dialect any more.  I think the producers were going for grittier, less conventionally attractive faces and physiques, which you don't tend to find among professional actors. 

And for those who aren't aware, Italian dialects are like distinct languages.  It's not like American regional dialects, where the accents are diverse and a few words have different meanings.   Some linguists would argue that when we speak of Neapolitan, Sicilian, etc., we should say language instead of dialect.

[Kiss my mutt]

I finished my Brilliant Friend a few days ago and was immersed into another time and place.  Ferrante weaves and unforgettable tale. Can’t wait to get to book two!

[scrb]

2 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

And for those who aren't aware, Italian dialects are like distinct languages.  It's not like American regional dialects, where the accents are diverse and a few words have different meanings.   Some linguists would argue that when we speak of Neapolitan, Sicilian, etc., we should say language instead of dialect.

Actually it's true of several European nations, which were formed in the second half of the 20th century.

For instance, I remember reading somewhere that in 1850, only 20% of the population of the area which encompasses modern France spoke the language which is considered modern French.

Even a small country like Switzerland has small regions with a language which is unlike any of the 3 officially spoken languages.

[ProudMary]

5 hours ago, scrb said:

Well they showed Lenu being kissed by both Nino and Donato and it's a big contrast.

She said Nino's kiss was barely perceptible (forget the exact word) but she's crushing on him.

Donato was invasive, since it was sexual harassment.  She was paralyzed by fear but she also said in the narration that she hadn't known pleasure until then.

She felt "disgust" for Sarratore but also felt "revulsion" for herself.

Elena who is a writer didn't try to put this experience into words until now, going back and looking at her life with Lila, which is the occasion for this narrative starting in her childhood.

Presumably she doesn't tell Lila or anyone else.

Sexual assault.  On a child.  On her birthday, by a man she had admired.  My heart broke for Lenu.  I could feel it coming too.  He was creepy the whole episode.  

[abcfsk]

What's particularly rough is that Elena notes earlier how she feels comfortable when he's around, she sees him as a cultured, different type of father from the ones in the neighbourhood, she trusts him to set a different example.

[scrb]

S01E07: I fidanzati - That tunnel connecting the neighborhood to the rest of the world is some passage.  Every time Lenu goes through and comes back, she’s more worldly.

Shes got guys after her and finally schemes a way to turn the tables on creepy Donato, who’s ruined Nino for her.

 

Lila doesn’t have to walk through the tunnel like Lenu to become wise to the ways of the world.  Instead, she probably rides through it in Stefano’s red convertible, because she’s gotten rid of Marcello Solara by cozying up to Stefano, finally agreeing to marry him.

While she’s brilliantly extricated herself, she may not have counted on what the Solaras might do.  Papa Solara comes to visit the Cerullo’s new shop, which Stefano is bankrolling to make the shoes Lila had designed, and leaves with the “nice shop you have here, would be a shame if something happened to it, like it catching fire” warning.

Lila looks stylish with her visits to the hairdresser and her new wardrobe but she’s going to marry the boy who threatened her when she was little.  For her sake, Stefano better have reformed rather than be a wolf like Marcello.  

Or maybe Stefano better worry about not crossing Lila.

Their old school teacher had an interesting observation about where the beauty little Lila had in her brain went to as a young woman.

[scrb]

S01E08: La Promessa:

Lila believed Stefano when he said they’d be better than their parents.  

But they had to make a bargain with the devil.  She thought she was marrying a man who loved her and strived to be better but in the end, she was marrying Don Achille’s son.

She was shaken by her old teacher’s brutal repudiation of what she was about to become, the wife of the scion of a connected family.

So she makes Lenu promise to fulfill the potential for academic brilliance that she’d shown when they were children.  Because as the maestra said, Lila has been reduced to her physical beauty, which wealthy men desire to possess.

Elena refers in her narration that Lila talked about getting out of that neighborhood.  They were going to take the money Don Achilles had given them to become writers and escape that place.  But she may be stuck there, in business with the Solaras.

 

I don’t know the books so it remains to be seen what they do with the second season.  Do they jump way ahead?  The lead actresses are teenagers so they may have to recast.  It’s going to feel like a long wait for season 2.

[scrb]

After the season 1 finale, they announced My True Brilliant Friend, a 75 minute documentary which airs on Dec. 12th.

Already available on HBO Go.

Maybe behind the scenes or a making of piece with cast and crew interviews.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Donato creeping around like the creep that he is just had me shaking my head. When he was going on and on about how he couldn't stop thinking about Elena and he needed her, I was like BACK OFF. First of all, she's only 15 (and you are twice as old as she is). Secondly, you are married. But most importantly, learn to read the room. She clearly doesn't reciprocate those feelings so leave her alone! Lila is clearly much more calculating than Elena is, but I loved that Elena got Donato to go away by bringing Malina's son and having him frame it as "you're going to drive my mother insane if you keep showing your face around here."

Elena's scene in the changing hut with Antonio reminded me what it was like to deal with teenage boys. They're having their FIRST kiss and what does Antonio do? He goes straight for the boob grab within five seconds. As if that weren't enough, next he goes straight for the pussy grab. I mean seriously, dude. You guys haven't even gone on a date with your new girlfriend yet. You're still in the middle of having your first kiss and THIS is what you decide to do?

Alfonso totally reminded me of a young Ralph Macchio. I don't know why I didn't see it before.

Interesting that Ada was so quick to jump on the "Lila is a whore" train. Normally I refrain from the tired excuse "they're just jealous!" but in this case, I think that's all it really is. Pasquale was already rejected by Lila, and for someone with money, no less. Ada wishes she could land someone rich. All this complaining about how she's a kept woman because Stefano is buying her clothes is laughable coming from Ada since she was the one riding around with the Solaras in the previous episode.

Marcello is definitely not a nice guy (which we saw as recently as episode 6 when he threatened Lila), but I did feel a little bit bad for him when Lila gave him a spark of hope (when she asked him to take her for gelato). She clearly enjoyed crushing his spirit by firmly rejecting him. I'm not saying she should have married Marcello, but it's a good reminder that even jerks have feelings. It makes me sad that the only way for a poor girl like her to get out of an engagement to someone she clearly detested was to find someone else to marry. I mean, she is only 15. There is no need for her to get married already!

 

I never understand control freak parents like Elena's mother. You're worried about your daughter getting involved with "only" a mechanic so you won't let her sit with her friends at a wedding? Yes, the most dangerous situation is letting her sit at a table with six other people in plain sight of your table (and the entire town) at her best friend's wedding.

Nino is such a pill. Novels don't serve a purpose? GFTO, please.

Antonio can also have a seat. But I'm not into jealous/possessive guys.

Just about everyone has looked miserable for most of the previous seven episodes so it was nice to see everyone (well, everyone except sulky Nino) laughing, singing, dancing, and having a good time. For once, everyone looked happy. Well, at least until Marcello and Michele showed up.

[Dusibello]

On 11/21/2018 at 5:28 PM, Aja said:

... So I lived there a while, man, and it's crazy. And beautiful. With no shortage of crazy. Or beauty. And Elena Ferrante nailed Naples, like, down to the protons. TOTAL masterpiece. I just can't tongue bathe it lavishly enough!

Aja, I share your unbridled Norwegian enthusiasm for Napoli. And while I too could give the entire city and its wonderful people a tongue-bath, do you find the show's streets and squares oddly clean and tidy? It looks like Pyongyang! 

[Dusibello]

Finally tracked down this super catchy song from Episode 4:

'Nessuno' performed by Mina.

[Inquisitionist]

Vulture interviewed the four young actresses who portray Lila and Lenù.

[abcfsk]

Love that song!

The look between Lila and Elena killed me.

 

Here's the final passage from the book: 

 

Quote

Later I had the impression that a gust of wind had shut the door of the restaurant. In reality there was no wind or even a banging of doors. There happened only what could have been predicted to happen. Just in time for the cake, for the favors, the very handsome, very well-dressed Solara brothers appeared. They moved through the room greeting this one and that in their lordly way. Gigliola threw her arms around Michele’s neck and drew him down next to her. Lila, with a sudden flush on her throat and around her eyes, pulled her husband energetically by the arm and said something in his ear. Silvio nodded slightly to his children, Manuela looked at them with a mother’s pride. The singer started Lazzarella, modestly imitating Aurelio Fierro. Rino with a friendly smile invited Marcello to sit down. Marcello sat down, loosened his tie, crossed his legs.

The unpredictable revealed itself only at that point. I saw Lila lose her color, become as pale as when she was a child, whiter than her wedding dress, and her eyes had that sudden contraction that turned them into cracks. She had in front of her a bottle of wine and I was afraid that her gaze would go through it with a violence that would shatter it, with the wine spraying everywhere. But she wasn’t looking at the bottle. She was looking farther away, she was looking at the shoes of Marcello Solara.

They were Cerullo shoes for men. Not the model for sale, not the ones with the gilded pin. Marcello had on his feet the shoes bought earlier by Stefano, her husband. It was the pair she had made with Rino, making and unmaking them for months, ruining her hands.

[scrb]

1 hour ago, abcfsk said:

The look between Lila and Elena killed me.

 

Here's the final passage from the book: 

 

Yeah I figured the Solaras would show up and thought there might be a violent confrontation.

But obviously Stefano cut a deal with them so if the shoes are a success, I can see Stefano and the Solaras getting rich while the Cerullos are screwed.

I wondered why Silvio would be open to officiating the wedding between a rival family and the peasant shoe cobbler family whose daughter had rejected his own son.

Was it for a chance to throw a big bash and show off?

Or maybe they saw a big economic opportunity with those shoes, though I would imagine the people who really had money in Naples would be buying Ferragamos and other better-known brands from other parts of Italy which set the trend for fashion such as Milan and Florence.

 

I don't know if the Camorra made big money from pastry or grocery stores like the ones depicted here.  I thought they're big on doing things like adulterating olive oil and shaking down small businesses.  Or doing horrible things like helping factories dump toxic waste into land and waterways near drinking water supplies.

[Inquisitionist]

20 hours ago, abcfsk said:

 

Here's the final passage from the book: 

Quote

There happened only what could have been predicted to happen.

 

OMG, this is an example of Ann Goldstein's frequently clunky translations, hewing too closely to the specific Italian words ("Accadde solo quello che era prevedibile che accadesse.") rather than the sense the author is imparting.  "What happened was exactly what one could have predicted."  is how I would have expected Ferrante to put it if she were writing in English, not the stilted form Goldstein chose.

[abcfsk]

I like that line and I love her translation, in the sense that I love the language of her translation - I don't speak Italian so can't speak for accuracy, of course.

[Inquisitionist]

Are you referring to her translation of that particular line?  If so, what do you love about it?  My problem with it is that the Italian sounds perfectly natural, but the English rendering sounds stilted, quaint if you will.  It imparts a sense or feeling in English that wasn't there in the original Italian. 

[scrb]

On 12/10/2018 at 11:38 PM, scrb said:

After the season 1 finale, they announced My True Brilliant Friend, a 75 minute documentary which airs on Dec. 12th.

Already available on HBO Go.

Maybe behind the scenes or a making of piece with cast and crew interviews.

Documentary is good.  It centers on the two older girls who were 13 (Lila) and 14 (Elena) when they first auditioned for these roles.  They showed some of the audition tape.

The audition was a long process, with the girls auditioning later in Rome after the initial auditions in the Naples area.

Then, they had to decide whether to tell their respective schoolmates that they were going to be out of school for months.  Turned out they rehearsed for over a month and shot for just over 6 months.

By the time they did promotion in LA and in Venice, they were 15 and 16.  They also allude a couple of times towards the end that they will start gett8ng ready to do the second season.  So before HBO publicly confirmed renewal, they were planning to go forward with a second season, with these girls.  

Its kind of unsurpris8ng because they invested a lot of time and money with them, getting them acting coaches and gave them a lot of notes about how to do scenes.  The rehearsal and shooting time seemed like acclimating them to life as actresses.  In those 7 plus months they were bonding with other cast and crew and lived in a hotel so they socialized with them.

I don’t know if the other young cast were newcomers.  Seemed older and many of them, especially the guys, seemed to regularly drink alcohol.

Towards the end, there was a real MBF moment when Margherita said they’d have to go to rehearsals soon and Gaia says they don’t need rehearsals.  They were new to acting the first time so they had to learn but it’s not necessary any more or not necessary for her.

Can’t get more Lila and Elena than that, the latter being cautious while the former confidently goes out on a limb.

[Koalagirl]

I watched the documentary as well.  Gaia gives such a wonderfully multifaceted portrayal of Lila that it was almost jarring to see that she is really so very young.  Her reaction when watching the trailer for the first time brought me to tears and it was so sweet when Margherita (Elena) reached out to touch her hand. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Koalagirl

[Inquisitionist]

I've recorded the documentary and hope to watch it soon.  Thanks for the rundowns!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I always love behind the scenes stuff but this was especially interesting because the girls were so young and unknown when they started working on the show. I loved the contrast between their very serious characters and how normal they are in real life. I was so used to seeing them in their period costumes/setting that at first it was a little disorienting to see them in contemporary clothes and texting.

ITA that the moment in the car when they were talking about rehearsal for S2 was a very Lila/Elena moment in real life.

I thought they gave excellent performances but watching this showed me just how exacting the director was with them. Because their characters were so serious, it was sweet to see both girls crying on the last days of filming.

[orangepeel]

Question about language. I am reading that the show, in its native language, some Italians have problems understanding it because of the Neapolitan dialect or whatever dialect is used in the show. Is this true? If that is so, how is it reflected in the book? Do the characters speak in dialect in the original Italian text?

[ProudMary]

2 hours ago, orangepeel said:

Question about language. I am reading that the show, in its native language, some Italians have problems understanding it because of the Neapolitan dialect or whatever dialect is used in the show. Is this true? If that is so, how is it reflected in the book? Do the characters speak in dialect in the original Italian text?

I have not read the books so I can't answer that part of your question but in the HBO documentary "My True Brilliant Friend" which focuses on the teenagers playing Lila and Elena in the series, the young actresses said that it was difficult for them because they had to learn their lines not only in the unfamiliar Neapolitan dialect, but specifically in the Neapolitan dialect of the 1950s.

[orangepeel]

Here's the answer:

Quote

Ferrante avoids transcribing the speech patterns of the street, writing out everything in proper Italian and inserting a clause to specify whether the speaker is using Neapolitan dialect or not. This saves the reader from having to struggle through laboriously rendered, potentially offensive slang à la Huckleberry Finn, and it also makes it impossible to forget how far the narrator, Elena Greco, has traveled, from her days as a postwar urchin to the heights of literary respectability.

https://www.vulture.com/2018/12/my-brilliant-friend-hbo-neapolitan-dialect.html

[ProudMary]

2 hours ago, orangepeel said:

Here's the answer:

https://www.vulture.com/2018/12/my-brilliant-friend-hbo-neapolitan-dialect.html

A very interesting article.  Glad you shared it.  It makes you realize that subtitles alone do not always convey the contextual subtleties of the original language.

During the documentary, there is a segment where the girls' initial auditions are shown.  The casting agent, off camera, asks Margherita (Elena) what she would like to do in her future.  She says that she wants to study languages.  After reading this article, which is slightly spoiler-ish about Elena's adult future, it makes me wonder if the future ambition Margherita spoke of had something to do with her casting.  When they showed the girls at the Los Angeles premiere, Margherita seemed comfortable speaking English.  Gaia (Lila) did not.

[Kiss my mutt]

In the book they will often refer to when the dialect is used in a conversation vs Italian 

[Aja]

On 12/11/2018 at 9:08 AM, Dusibello said:

Aja, I share your unbridled Norwegian enthusiasm for Napoli. And while I too could give the entire city and its wonderful people a tongue-bath, do you find the show's streets and squares oddly clean and tidy? It looks like Pyongyang! 

OMG YES. That's definitely the cleanest ghetto in the city, no doubt!! And the least crowded!  When I lived there during the 90s, even wealthy parts like Vomero had trash piled six feet in the air along all the streets.

Life got in the way so it took me a while to finish the series. I read all three books a couple of years ago and lost my mind entirely. I wouldn't shut up for months about how it was the BEST THING EVER WRITTEN and Lila Cerullo is the GREATEST FEMALE CHARACTER EVER WRITTEN and Elena Ferrante is THE DOSTOEVSKY OF OUR GENERATION and seriously, I could not shut up. So I was wary about the show. I just didn't see how it would be possible to do the books justice on screen. As another poster pointed out, so much of the depth and feeling in the books come from Elena's descriptions of her feelings about Lila, the neighborhood, her parents, etc...and one of the most brilliant things about the books, to me, was that at a certain point, especially when Elena gets older, you slowly realize that you're seeing this whole story from her perspective, but she is not necessarily the most reliable narrator.

WELL. I was NOT disappointed! First of all, I was GOBSMACKED to learn that neither kid-Elena and Lila nor teenaged-Elena and Lila were professional actors. What!!!!!  And I was pleased to see that the more brutal parts of the book (Lila's dad throwing her out the window and breaking her arm, the casual violence of family life, Donato's sexual assault of Elena) were not left out. They're ugly, but it's not possible to write honestly about Neapolitan culture without them. In Naples, and actually a lot of Italy, women are absolutely thought of and treated as possessions. Possessions to be cared for and "spoiled" with pretty things, but also very much expected to to do exactly as the men in her life--father, brother, husband, whatever--tell her to do, with violence to be expected as a matter of course if she does not. And this is as recently as the 90s, when I myself married one. My ex's family wasn't as extreme as the families on the show, not quite. My ex would never have dreamed of physically assaulting me. But the attitude was definitely there. And I, a Scandiavian-heritaged, born-and-raised American girl was TREMENDOUSLY unpopular with the family when it came to these matters. I knew plenty of girls like Lila, fierce and brilliant but trapped in their roles. Stuff like that still definitely exists.

And ISCHIA. Won't you please indulge me for one minute while I verbally orgasm over the Ischia episodes! Apart from the last five minutes when Donato turned into Mr. Grabby. (Again--extremely typical. "I love you and can't live without you and only think of  you" is Neapolitan-dude for "I absolutely must possess and control you." Note how Marcello is egged on by Lila's rejections--it's not love, it's flat determination to get that little bitch under his control.) We as high school kids used to take the ferry to Ischia for the day just to hang out and watch the yachts and the rich people. One time, a woman who looked alarmingly like Nella pulled us (there were three of us) into her little trattoria off a side road and force-fed us linguini and clams and rhapodized non-stop about how darling the American kids were. No matter how idyllic a film depiction of Ischia might be, I assure you--it is thousands of times more idyllic in real life.

You know, I really haven't spent a whole lot of time being sad about missing my life in Europe, but I think I'm about to start.

*runs away sobbing*

ETA: I'm so thrilled they're at least doing the next book, it looks like! Freakin' YAY!  For those who have not read the books, trust me--we have barely scratched the surface of the amazing, happy, heartbreaking, wonderful and horrible trajectory of the lives and friendship of Elena and Lila!!

Edited January 28, 2019 by Aja

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S2 begins on March 16!

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Gaia Girace will be leaving the series partway through S3 (they will be casting an older actress to play Lila after episode 3)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S2.E1: The New Name

Quote

When the most important friend in her life seems to have disappeared without a trace, Elena Greco, a now-elderly woman immersed in a house full of books, turns on her computer and starts writing the story of their friendship.

Original air date: 3/16/20

And just in case you need a reminder of what happened in S1:

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[scrb]

Heartbreaking wedding night but Lila isn’t going to be victimized long.

Cinematography is beautiful but then they do too much to make Stefano a monster, first with closeups of him eating and then looking like some kind of beast through that glass.

They don’t have to use camera tricks to show how horrible he is.

Surreal scene with her own family pretending she wasn’t beaten when the signs are all over her face.

 

In the upcoming highlights it looks like Lila breaks girl code by going for the guy Lenu likes.

 

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I've seen enough shows like The Borgias and Game of Thrones to know that Lila's wedding night would not go well. But to see both of their families ignore her black eye and act like everything was fine - just sickening.

I have forgotten a lot of what happened in S1 so I really don't understand why Elena is dating Antonio. His behavior towards her has varied between aloof and hostile so I don't see the appeal at all. Is it just because there's no one else for her to date?

I had to laugh at Rino and Pinu using Lila's house to have sex. I remember my Italian teacher said that because so many Italians lived at home until they got married (meaning they didn't have their own apartments), there were areas where people would park their cars to have sex. They would put sheets of newspaper on the windows for privacy because lots of cars would park there at the same time to have sex, often in the middle of the day. That's why you need to know someone like Lila with her own empty house!

[ShellsandCheese]

On 3/3/2020 at 2:21 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Gaia Girace will be leaving the series partway through S3 (they will be casting an older actress to play Lila after episode 3)

Just her? What about Margherita Mazzucco? Or they both leaving? I think it would be odd to recast one and not the other. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S2.E2: The Body

Quote

A photograph of Lila on her wedding day is exhibited at a shop in the center of town, triggering admiration and gossip throughout the neighborhood.

Promo:

Original air date: 3/23/20

Edited March 22, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Invitation to the set:

 

[scrb]

I’m not sure that Lila conforms to the notion of beauty in 1950s Italy.  Beautiful and slim but she turned heads more because she was young and wore a stylish dress to a poor neighborhood?

But she’s trying to provoke Stefano because she won’t forgive him for going into business with the Solaras.

Surprising that Lenu would be sympathetic to Stefano.  Didn’t Lila tell her he beat her?  Not to mention the black eye.  She thought Stefano showed genuine emotion?  Then again she put up a lot with Antonio.

Maybe she’s still naive about men.

That epiphany she has about how ugly women become after they become mothers, looking more like their husbands, brothers and fathers, she just realized bearing and raising children was a dead end she wanted nothing to do with?

For all her book smarts, getting the hell out of that town as fast as she could, leaving her family behind, should have been her first and only goal until she won a university scholarship.

That is kind of what her old teacher impressed on her, that she had to make the most of her smarts, not stop schooling and helping her mother out — relegating her to a dead end.

Lenu was reading a book about inequality.  Will she become a feminist, which may not become a big deal until the mid or late ‘60s?

 

Sounded like the young women were literally fighting each other to work in the new stores.

Who knew people would want that badly to work retail?

[msrachelj]

Hardly any posting on this show? Doesn't surprise me. It's not full of idiotic people, annoying brats, bathroom humor. TV takes it cue from the the real world. Trashy. I'm surprised it got a second season being it seems unpopular, although this is HBO where you can at least see programming that is not usual to what the unwashed masses watch. I love my trashy NJ Housewives because they are ridiculous and morons but I need to balance with shows like this. 

[Koalagirl]

34 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

Hardly any posting on this show? Doesn't surprise me. It's not full of idiotic people, annoying brats, bathroom humor. TV takes it cue from the the real world. Trashy. I'm surprised it got a second season being it seems unpopular, although this is HBO where you can at least see programming that is not usual to what the unwashed masses watch. I love my trashy NJ Housewives because they are ridiculous and morons but I need to balance with shows like this. 

I agree. I feel like I somehow redeem myself for watching way too much reality tv.  

[scrb]

Maybe season 1 was popular in Italy and other parts of Europe.

The books on which this is based are suppose to be huge.

[ShellsandCheese]

21 hours ago, scrb said:

I’m not sure that Lila conforms to the notion of beauty in 1950s Italy.  Beautiful and slim but she turned heads more because she was young and wore a stylish dress to a poor neighborhood?

But she’s trying to provoke Stefano because she won’t forgive him for going into business with the Solaras.

Surprising that Lenu would be sympathetic to Stefano.  Didn’t Lila tell her he beat her?  Not to mention the black eye.  She thought Stefano showed genuine emotion?  Then again she put up a lot with Antonio.

Maybe she’s still naive about men.

That epiphany she has about how ugly women become after they become mothers, looking more like their husbands, brothers and fathers, she just realized bearing and raising children was a dead end she wanted nothing to do with?

For all her book smarts, getting the hell out of that town as fast as she could, leaving her family behind, should have been her first and only goal until she won a university scholarship.

That is kind of what her old teacher impressed on her, that she had to make the most of her smarts, not stop schooling and helping her mother out — relegating her to a dead end.

Lenu was reading a book about inequality.  Will she become a feminist, which may not become a big deal until the mid or late ‘60s?

 

Sounded like the young women were literally fighting each other to work in the new stores.

Who knew people would want that badly to work retail?

They were fighting for work because it’s the only work a available to them. If nothing else, work for these women gets them out of the house away from their brothers, husbands, fathers and it gives them a sense of agency and something to call their own.

The answer is obvious as to why Lila didn’t just bust her butt and pull herself up by her bootstraps and pursue academics in 1950’s post war Italy. I mean her own father shoved her out of window out of rage for wanting to continue to her education. 
 

This show did manage to do something that very few shows could and that’s feel sympathetic towards an abuser. I don’t think Stefano is a bad person, he’s just all wrong for Lila and she for him. Stefani reacts by playing the macho husband who is taking his “marital rights” by force. Because it never occurred to him (culture, upbringing, etc) that’s treating his wife with respect, as an equal, maybe paying for her to finish school, is the way to get her to love you. Not rape and abuse. But he thinks that’s what a man does when his wife doesn’t submit. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I think that both Lila and Stefano went into this marriage expecting very different things from each other and have been extremely disappointed in how things turned out.

They are both very stubborn people with an idea of how the other person would be. Neither of them wants to change their expectations or their personalities so they both want the other person to bend to their will so now they're stuck in this perpetual cycle of provocation and abuse and they're getting more fed up with each other as time goes on.

The sad thing is that Elena might have been able to help a little bit if she hadn't remained silent during the car ride to the dressmaker's shop. Stefano was pretty honest about his frustrations and if Elena had spoken up, she might have been able to ease the tension between them by suggesting a gentler approach.

It was stupid when Stefano told Elena to keep their "talk" a secret fro Lila. Everyone in town just saw you drive through town together in a red convertible with a giant picture of Lila in the back. How did either of them think that Lila wouldn't hear about that?

And I'm fine with Lila not wanting to get pregnant. Once you start having kids in the 50s, you're really stuck.

Ugh, I'm so glad that I didn't grow up in Italy in the 50s. I mean, I know there is still a lot of toxic masculinity in existence today but watching this show makes me see how pervasive it was. Even the alleged nice boy Antonio is a dick. He dumped Elena for having the nerve to try to help him so that his mother wouldn't be left alone to fend for herself when he got drafted. All he could think about was his pride and his alleged humiliation rather than being relieved he would get to stay and take care of his mother.

22 hours ago, scrb said:

Sounded like the young women were literally fighting each other to work in the new stores.

Who knew people would want that badly to work retail?

There were very few opportunities for women to work at the time, especially in a small town like the one where Elena and Lila lived. As we've seen, most of the employees at the stores in town are the children of the shop owners. It's not like now where you can go out and apply for jobs at a bunch of different stores and restaurants owned by complete strangers.

Girls lived at home with their parents until they got married. Once they married, they were housewives who were doing housework, cooking, and taking care of the children. Getting a job was a way to get out of the house for a few hours, interact with someone besides your husband and kids, and feel competent at something other than cooking and cleaning.

To put it another way, people are already climbing the walls after being stuck at home with their kids for a week due to coronavirus shelter in place orders. Imagine how eager you'd be to get out of the house if your entire life from childhood through adulthood was staying at home and watching your siblings and your kids.

[scrb]

Yeah my comment about working retail was a joke.

Sure given the time and circumstances it was probably glamorous, in boutiques which were purveyors of the emerging Italian fashion.

Naples is not Milan but still more glamorous than the little dusty neighborhood these girls came from.

And back then only a fraction of girls would continue their education beyond primary level, let alone aspire for university like Lenu.

Sure working in a new shiny boutique beats churning out a brood of kids and giving their twenties and thirties to raising them.

[meep.meep]

17 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

Ugh, I'm so glad that I didn't grow up in Italy in the 50s. I mean, I know there is still a lot of toxic masculinity in existence today but watching this show makes me see how pervasive it was. Even the alleged nice boy Antonio is a dick. He dumped Elena for having the nerve to try to help him so that his mother wouldn't be left alone to fend for herself when he got drafted. All he could think about was his pride and his alleged humiliation rather than being relieved he would get to stay and take care of his mother.

I think you read the situation with Antonio wrong.  He didn't want to end up in debt to the Solaras (sp?) for the rest of his life because of something that he didn't ask for.  Lila and Lenu asked if the Solaras could get him out of the draft, not thinking about what the consequences might be.  The consequences would be that every time they wanted something from Antonio, he'd have to do it.  And the things they might ask would not be things he wanted to do.  That's typical of the kind of impetuous moves Lila makes.  She doesn't look at anything from someone else's point of view.

I liked the bet and how Lila structured it so that either outcome would be something that Lenu would want.

[scrb]

I'm not sure why Antonio would be afraid of being drafted.

WWII was over so maybe people were still wary about big conflicts.

But he was in a dead-end job and town, without much prospects.

Now I don't know if the Italian military offered careers like the US military did with things like the GI Bill.  But millions of Americans from modest backgrounds had long careers in the military and eventually transitioned to middle class standard of living, even if they didn't go to college, because they'd learn to do things which would translate to jobs later on.

Maybe right after the war, there were fears of more big conflicts.

Lenu was trying to do something nice for him even though she knew she didn't really love him.

Probably it's for the best that he broke up with her.  She can go to university, unencumbered.

[orangepeel]

On 3/24/2020 at 5:53 PM, scrb said:

Maybe season 1 was popular in Italy and other parts of Europe.

The books on which this is based are suppose to be huge.

Season 1 and 2 got around 6-7 million viewers (per episode) in Italy which is like 10% of the population. That must be good because it's been renewed for a 3rd season.

Ironically, I think the books are not popular in Italy, but the tv show is. In the US, the show is not popular (150,000 live viewers season 2 episode 1), but the books are. Go figure.

Discussion online in the US is sparse. I'm finding more traffic in discussion groups of countries outside the US.

Edited March 26, 2020 by orangepeel

[scrb]

48 minutes ago, orangepeel said:

Discussion online in the US is sparse. I'm finding more traffic in discussion groups of countries outside the US.

Do you have some links to these forums?

[orangepeel]

23 hours ago, scrb said:

Do you have some links to these forums?

Not a forum, but the show's Italian Instagram account has a lot of discussion when you find a lengthy top post, like the one below. I can post other forums, but they are in foreign languages and you'll have to machine translate, like the post below. This show has niche loyal followings all over the world. China/Taiwan/Japan/SK for instance.

 

[scrb]

Hmm, Reddit has a lot of posts.

[orangepeel]

On 3/27/2020 at 1:11 PM, scrb said:

Hmm, Reddit has a lot of posts.

There is a subreddit, but for example, this Chinese discussion board has much more activity:

https://www.douban.com/group/671837/

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S2.E2 clip: Stefano explains Lila