The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[BkWurm1]

The initial hype for the series was because of where this show started, the comics. Comic characters/superheroes have become very popular in the last 10 years,

 

In the case of GA I would say there is a strong case to be made that Smallville would have been a more likely source of hype for the character than the comics and in Smallville no one felt the need to keep him to GA's comic pairing.  I realized before watching Smallville (after they announced he would be in the show) that I did know the GA character from the animated series but the memory I had of him was some weird tree hugger Robin Hood wanna be that was there to only deal with low level stuff like grocery store hold ups but Batman wanted him in the League because he would hold them accountable for their actions.  BY the time Smallville ended I knew his history from the comics in a general manner but that's skimming the wiki pages and maybe 4 or 5 appearances in animated stuff vs four years on Smallville.   

 

 

After Smallville, they made sure everyone knew that Arrow was going to be much more gritty and grounded, but they never said it was going to be more true to the comics.  By the end of the Pilot I knew that Laurel was Dinah and thus positioned to become BC but they depowered her in the first episode.  By then I was very familiar with the comic BC and Laurel, she didn't work for me. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Primal Slayer]

I can't imagine how utterly infuriating it must be for MG and the Arrow writers to be constantly hounded about how they don't write *their* stories based on what *other* people have written. Even comics writers have to deal with less grief when they do their own version of GA. The guy currently writing GA turned him into a *werewolf*. But sure, MG is the one that's screwing up GA

Oliver doesnt spend majority of his run as a werewolf. It is for a simple story arc where even the writer gets bitched at for the lame story, it's the equivalent of the baby mama arc on the show where Oliver suddenly lies to Felicity and Thea is ok with it. MG and co. have been involved in the comic world and knew what they were getting into. Smallville was an origin story for Clark Kent becoming Superman, he gained his iconic powers throughout the series but people were still pissed how he didn't know how to properly fly until the very end and how everyone and their momma learned how to control their powers before him. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Primal Slayer

[apinknightmare]

Oliver has been a badass since the show began. We get flashbacks to compliment the main story to help flesh out his character. Laurel started the show the complete opposite to Oliver.

The show isn't about Laurel - she's a supporting character, so she's not going to get flashbacks (and why would she, when nothing she did back then led her to being the Black Canary?) She didn't get stranded on Lian Yu, so OF COURSE she's in a different place than Oliver was when he met him. Your argument (unless I'm misunderstanding) is that they're treating Oliver differently than they did Laurel, when they didn't. Oliver was weak and incompetent when he first started his journey - that was when he was on Lian Yu. Laurel was damseled and incompetent when she started on her journey, which is...whenever the hell you want to believe it is (after Tommy died of wherever she started drinking/popping pills, maybe). But don't act like Oliver has always been a badass, because he hasn't.

[Primal Slayer]

Laurel never should've spent basically 3 years having to be constantly be saved and be incompetent. Oliver isn't a badass in flashbacks that last practically for all of 3 minutes an episode. She shouldn't have to become Black Canary just to learn how to fight and finally be able to stand on her own, it should've been ingrained in the character from the beginning with her constantly becoming better as the series went on. It would be like Wonder Woman starting out as a secretary for the Justice League but just because she will eventually become a glorified bad ass in the sequels it makes it ok. 

[BkWurm1]

Laurel never should've spent basically 3 years having to be constantly be saved and be incompetent. Oliver isn't a badass in flashbacks that last practically for all of 3 minutes an episode. She shouldn't have to become Black Canary just to learn how to fight and finally be able to stand on her own, it should've been ingrained in the character from the beginning with her constantly becoming better as the series went on. It would be like Wonder Woman starting out as a secretary for the Justice League but just because she will eventually become a glorified bad ass in the sequels it makes it ok. 

You know what, I agree 100 % which is why in part why I think the character never worked for me.  But it's also why I don' t get the outcry for her loss 4 years after she started out as IMO a badly written mistake. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by BkWurm1

[SleepDeprived]

I had no idea who the Green Arrow or Black Canary were when I started watching Arrow either.  I saw the S1 promo poster with a shirtless hot guy and thought I'd give it a try. /shallow

 

I'mma be shallow with you even though I did know who Green Arrow and Black Canary were. To be honest, the show being about GA/the comics/superheroes never really factored into my decision to watch but it actually did factor into my hesitance, at first, because I liked Justin Hartley's Ollie too much. But then I saw a hot dude doing amazing exercises in a promo and I was like "Self, at least, watch for the training montage." I, also, found out the show had Katie Cassidy and she actually got me kinda interested, too, 'cause I liked her in other projects she did. I was good with the idea of KC as Laurel/eventual BC until I saw the 'Pilot' and was so meh and iffy about her that it was hard to care about the comic canon of it all.

[Password]

Laurel was never a necessity to Oliver's story but I understand the frustration with how horribly she was written. Why introduce her in the first place? Because they had a plan but that fell through and since then they had to drag Laurel around for 3 seasons.

The writers pick and choose from canon as they see fit. This iteration of Laurel just did not work.

[wonderwall]

Things that had nothing to do with my choice in watching the show:

• Comics. In fact, the comics and the GA/BC endgame is what turned me off from the show in S1

 

Things that made me tune into the show for the first time:

• Hot guy with awesome abs
• Katie Cassidy. Who, weirdly enough, I was a fan of before this show ever happened. Now I can't stand her but that's a different story

 

Things that made me tune into the show again after I quit in S1:

• Felicity/Olicity/OTA
• Hot guys with hot abs

Edited April 23, 2016 by wonderwall

[looptab]

I never had any intention of watching the show. My mom kept bringing it up, telling me I should watch it, and using SA's abs as a reason why, haha. Obviously I caved in the end. :)

I don't agree with the premise that it was the comic book audience who gave the show hype and that then made things like the crossover and all comic books adaptations on TV popular. I'd say it was Arrow itself and the success it had as a show on its own merits that did that.

Edited April 23, 2016 by looptab

[EmilyBettFan]

I didn't know about GA or Black Canary. I started watching this show because I saw gifs of it on tumblr of him saying you're remarkable to Felicity and another gif of Oliver and Diggle 1X03 + Felicity in that episode.

[EmilyBettFan]

Laurel never should've spent basically 3 years having to be constantly be saved and be incompetent. Oliver isn't a badass in flashbacks that last practically for all of 3 minutes an episode. She shouldn't have to become Black Canary just to learn how to fight and finally be able to stand on her own, it should've been ingrained in the character from the beginning with her constantly becoming better as the series went on. It would be like Wonder Woman starting out as a secretary for the Justice League but just because she will eventually become a glorified bad ass in the sequels it makes it ok.

Maybe they couldn't do that because of the actress they had. Whereas when they found Caity she was already fully formed as a martial artist or she was learning and being a dancer helps her with her fighting techniques/training and fight routines. It all comes down to bad casting IMO. I'm being blunt because it completely showed how bad it was with the poor execution of Laurel to stunt double. I don't even think she read any of the comics about BC. She just doesn't seem to have the personality to read a comic. You can prove me wrong but if she's sourced material when she was on the show throughout the years. Whereas Caity was reading the comics and stated which ones she was reading to learn more about the character.

[Bort]

This is the media thread, everybody. Media!

[AyChihuahua]

I'mma be shallow with you even though I did know who Green Arrow and Black Canary were. To be honest, the show being about GA/the comics/superheroes never really factored into my decision to watch but it actually did factor into my hesitance, at first, because I liked Justin Hartley's Ollie too much. But then I saw a hot dude doing amazing exercises in a promo and I was like "Self, at least, watch for the training montage." 

Training montages get me EVERY time.

[tv echo]

Flashback to 2012 Arrow news reporting...

 

Interview: Marc Guggenheim Unlocks the Secrets & Connections in Arrow
Craig Byrne   July 19, 2012
http://www.greenarrowtv.com/interview-marc-guggenheim-unlocks-the-secrets-connections-in-arrow/

“In terms of secrets, for us, the secret is Oliver,” Guggenheim explains when asked to reveal secrets to the journalists at the table. “One of the things we’re doing is, we don’t really consider the show a superhero show. We consider it more like a hero show; more like a crime thriller, and as with any with crime thriller, you’re going to have a mystery. Except unlike CSI where it’s a body drop at the beginning of every episode, the mystery is Oliver. Oliver is the case of the week, basically. Each week we’re peeling back the layers of his character, both in the present and in the past. We’re going to be continuing the flashbacks into the series, so you’ll get to see what happened to him on the island, and it won’t always be the things that you expect. We’re trying to always surprise the audience, so the mysteries and the twists come out of character as opposed to out of plots.”
*  *  *
Although we know all about Oliver’s parents, and we meet Laurel Lance’s father, the question of Laurel’s mother is left ambiguous. Do the producers have a plan to tell that story? “Yes. Actually, we know exactly what happened with Laurel’s mother. We’re not sure which episode we’re going to do it in — it will probably be in the first ten, and it’s a great question, because a lot of people don’t remember that Laurel has a mother. But she does, and it’s an interesting story that relates to Oliver,” he says. Whether or not Laurel’s mother will share the backstory from the comics remains to be seen, but Guggenheim does tell us that there will be frequent references to comics lore. “In just about every episode, we’re bringing in something from the comics. Sometimes it’ll just be a little Easter egg; other times it’ll be an entire character. There are various different things from the comic books we’ll be bringing in. Stay tuned.”
 

... So it’s that complexity. one of the things that is part of the DNA of the show is the emotional complexity, the emotional resonance of the relationships between the characters. It’ll start off with Oliver relating to Thea, and Oliver relating to Moira, etc., but as the show evolves and grows in the series, we’ll start putting other characters together. Like in episode 3, Moira and Thea have their own story. So watching the characters combine and interact with each other in ways that independent of Oliver, I think, is just as interesting as when Oliver is involved. Part of the show is a soap opera. Part of the show is a character drama. And that’s, I think, one of the very importants of the show. It’s not just Oliver beating up bad guys every week.” Oliver will also be having scenes with his new stepfather, Walter Steele, played by Colin Salmon. ...
 

“Not unexpected from the pilot, but also, just a great relationship is the Oliver-Diggle relationship,” Marc Guggenheim says of Oliver Queen’s bodyguard, played by David Ramsey. “That worked very well for us in the pilot. We’re having a lot of fun writing to it. Diggle’s not a dumb guy. I don’t think I’m spoiling anything – it’s not a question of if he is going to find out Oliver’s secret; it’s when and how, and watching these two men who are equals in many respects, in terms of their abilities, and in terms of their intelligence, facing off against each other in this little chess match that they’re having, I think that’s part of the fun of the first three.” ...

 

The CW's Green Arrow will be the Jason Bourne of superheroes
Krystal Clark   December 16, 2012

http://www.blastr.com/2012/02/the_cws_green_arrow_will.php

The CW's Green Arrow pilot is no Smallville. The network's latest superhero drama will have less fantasy and more reality, with a protagonist its producers are comparing to a well-known movie spy. Are you ready for an edgier Oliver Queen?

What makes Arrow different from its predecessor? Realism. The CW's head of development, Thom Sherman, recently spoke to Entertainment Weekly and described the show as "very provocative and sophisticated and edgy." He says the pilot's "not as comic book-y as Smallville or other [superhero projects] from other networks."

Arrow will be more grounded in reality, but the tone will be less Dark Knight, more Jason Bourne. "He doesn't have any superpowers," says Sherman. "His skill set is that he's an archer, but he also has physical strength and prowess. He's clever and able to devise ways of taking down a bad guy that are unique and fun to watch."

Edited April 23, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

The above 2012 articles also make nice rebuttals next time you encounter any of the following arguments -  Arrow has "turned into" a soap opera, Arrow should return to its Season 1 greatness, Arrow is a superhero show and not a relationship drama, Arrow should just be about Oliver beating up bad guys each week, etc.

Edited April 23, 2016 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

I love how Felicity's intelligence is considered 'magic' but Oliver's almost superhuman skills with the bow and arrow (because no one normal can be as accurate as him) isn't magic :p The only difference is that Oliver's skills are physical, and Felicity's skills are mental. 

 

But I do understand the point... Team Arrow has relied on tech a lot lately. I mean even without Felicity they need another tech person to help them (Curtis)... But the thing is, wouldn't we sort of question why they don't capitalize on Felicity's skills if they didn't rely on her skills more often? 

[Thundercatmary]

Well I have to disagree, aside from the rediculous baby momma drama I think Oliver and Felicity's relationship was handled much better this season.

The real issue with the show IMO is there are to many masked fighters. Now we are down one with LL death but they also added Curtis to regular next season so we pretty much back where we started.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Oliver hasn't been allowed to take down bad guys in two seasons because they had to make place in the team for less skilled fighters named Laurel, Palmer and Thea. If Oliver was allowed to fight as he used to it would have been abundantly clear that there's no need for so many people on the team.

The "fantasy" element was introduced on the show courtesy of the shared universe with the Flash. Not a fan of metas on Arrow but I got the feeling that we will get some to oppose to Mr Terrific as it happened with Palmer last year. I'm not a fan of magic either but that too I guess is a consequence of the shared universe. With that they could introduce Constantine, Vixen..

There was exactly one episode of "Olicity drama" this year while in S1 it was a never ending drama with the love triangle. They definitely don't need to look back at S1 on that front. I almost quit in S1 because I couldn't stand three almost thirty years old people so caught up in their relationship drama. I still remember when they spent an episode talking about Tommy getting a drawer at Laurel's place. I could have died of boredom.

[Guest]

Tbh I hate the magic crap and would love a return to realism but any romantic relationship of Oliver's was always going to have drama. It's not just because it's Olicity specifically, it's because they can't write romance very well. Olicity are not the problem here, IMO. It's the poor writing. I'm grateful we have EBR and SA portraying that relationship because they manage to sell more than anyone else could on this show. But on the whole I agree with @Thundercatmary - Olicity have been handled really well this season, up until the baby mama crap. 

 

I guess I'm mostly confused that some want a return of s1 Oliver and how romance was handled back then. Wouldn't that mean Oliver was going backwards? The only reason we're seeing this level of romantic 'drama' in s4 is because Oliver is finally evolving and reaching a healthy place emotionally. I don't want to see a s1 Oliver ever again. I want to see character growth and I am seeing that with his struggles to be a good romantic partner, something we never would have seen in s1.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Guest

[wonderwall]

There was exactly one episode of "Olicity drama" this year while in S1 it was a never ending drama with the love triangle. They definitely don't need to look back at S1 on that front. I almost quit in S1 because I couldn't stand three almost thirty years old people so caught up in their relationship drama. I still remember when they spent an episode talking about Tommy getting a drawer at Laurel's place. I could have died of boredom.

 

To be fair sometimes Oliver's lie towards Felicity could be considered as 'suffocating'. After episode 8 it created a dark cloud over the show. So even though there was one episode that was full of drama, apparently it was too much for others because before episode episode 16 there was a 40 second breakup scene in 415, and before that in 409 there were a few romance scenes when O/F talked about engagement etc.

 

I'm guessing romance took over the show because people were waiting for the other shoe to drop, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the show has been focusing on romance. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by wonderwall

[dtissagirl]

Barry Allen is about 150% to blame for the fantasy elements introduced.

 

And then the audience is to blame for their continuing loving and allegiance to anything Barry Allen touches, which tells Berlanti Prod that fantasy elements SELL.

 

The solution? Everyone ever stop watching Flash if you want Arrow to go back to gritty realism.

Edited April 23, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Midnight Lullaby]

To be fair sometimes Oliver's lie towards Felicity could be considered as 'suffocating'. After episode 8 it created a dark cloud over the show. So even though there was one episode that was full of drama, apparently it was too much for others because before episode episode 16 there was a 40 second breakup scene in 415, and before that in 409 there were a few romance scenes when O/F talked about engagement etc.

I hated that he was lying to Felicity and couldn't wait for the truth to come out, but it didn't cause any "relationship drama" until the last seconds of episode 15. People who didn't watch the crossover or didn't care about the couple or didn't think the lie was a big deal watched a free drama couple until Felicity found out the truth because they were free of drama. The lie was kept on hold and seemingly forgotten (by the writers and Oliver) for months.

A few romantic scenes between them aren't "drama".

Edited April 23, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[tarotx]

That cloud to the show was not in show though. That was in the fandom. And most of the suffocating is caused more so by oh no here we go again, than by actual hampering of the season. Imo. If Season 3 never happened I don't think people would be so suffocating with how Olicity has been handled this year. Season 1 didn't have any earlier seasons to drag the fan mood down. It had plenty of relationship angst&drama with the O/L/T love triangle but with past L/O/S causing strife with Laurel&Oliver and Oliver&Lance as well. Plus there was the Queen family drama angst. 

To be fair sometimes Oliver's lie towards Felicity could be considered as 'suffocating'. After episode 8 it created a dark cloud over the show. So even though there was one episode that was full of drama, apparently it was too much for others because before episode episode 16 there was a 40 second breakup scene in 415, and before that in 409 there were a few romance scenes when O/F talked about engagement etc.

 

I'm guessing romance took over the show because people were waiting for the other shoe to drop, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the show has been focusing on romance. 

Edited April 24, 2016 by tarotx

[dtissagirl]

I kinda really really love the usage of "drama" in quotation marks when the dramatic narrative pertains to the romantic storyline.

[wonderwall]

I hated that he was lying to Felicity and couldn't wait for the truth to come out, but it didn't cause any "relationship drama" until the last seconds of episode 15. People who didn't watch the crossover or didn't care about the couple or didn't think the lie was a big deal watched a free drama couple until Felicity found out the truth because they were free of drama. The lie was kept on hold and seemingly forgotten (by the writers and Oliver) for months.

 

Yep! I totally get it. I actually amended my statement a bit to add that  it's unfair to blame the show that it's focusing on romance when it doesn't focus on it as much as it did in S1, but unfortunately that's all the audience can think about because they're waiting for the other shoe to drop. If you actually look at it from a romance perspective:

 

Episode 1: a moderate amount of romance

2-5: little to no romance

6: a moderate amount of romance

7: no romance

8: quite a bit of romance to create that manufactured drama

9: a little bit of romance to set up the engagement

10-14: almost no romance

15: Almost no romance tlil the end when Felicity broke up with him (literally a 40 second scene)

16: Focus is on romance

17-18: No romance

 

There were actually 2 episodes in which romance was the focus (6, 16). The rest was focused elsewhere.

Edited April 23, 2016 by wonderwall

[Midnight Lullaby]

The difference for me between S1 and 4 on the romance portion of the story is that this season they gave us a (as much as possible for a tv show) mature and drama free relationship. That's why I don't get when people talk about "Olicity drama" when they avoided drama as much as possible.

In S1 the romance was all drama, drama, drama. We had three adults that acted like teenagers with Laurel that didn't know if she hated Oliver, loved Oliver, wanted Tommy, didn't want Tommy; Tommy that was jealous of his best friend, that felt rejected by the woman he loved, that threw a fit when his dad took away his trust fund (he wanted him to find a job at almost thirty years old, how unreasonable); Oliver that was brooding 24/7..

When people suggest to go back to S1 I remember how they handled the romance that was a significant part of the story and shudder because it was too much for me. All their issues were childish, I was bored and couldn't wait for the flashbacks to happen, lol.

[ComicFan777]

That cloud to the show was not in show though. That was in the fandom. And most of the suffocating is caused more oh no here we go again more so than actual hampering of the season. Imo. If Season 3 never happened I don't think people would be so suffocating with how Olicity has been handled this year. Season 1 didn't have any earlier seasons to drag the fan mood down. It had plenty of relationship angst and drama both with the O/L/T love triangle but with past L/O/S causing strife with Laurel and Oliver and Oliver and Lance. Plus there was the Queen family drama angst. 

 

I think the cloud was more apparent in the show when Oliver mentioned that he was running back and forth to Central City in 4x12.

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by ComicFan777

[wonderwall]

I think the cloud was more apparent in the show when Oliver mentioned that he was running back and forth to Central City in 4x12.

 

And when Malcolm/Thea found out about the kid...

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think the cloud was more apparent in the show when Oliver mentioned that he was running back and forth to Central City in 4x12.

That again is the audience's reaction, not drama that happened on the show. At least that portion of the audience that didn't take that line as Oliver talking about the crossover.

We didn't see Oliver going back and forth, we didn't even see one of the characters questioning what he was doing. Where was the drama?

Until 15 Felicity was blissfully unaware of everything so the only drama was the one in the fandom, lol.

[ComicFan777]

Yeah, for once, I have to say that the writers were smart enough to just leave breadcrumbs for fans to speculate, just enough to fan the flames, and leave the actual drama out of the show. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by ComicFan777

[AyChihuahua]

I personally would have been far less annoyed with the relationship drama, even the BMD, if not for S3. I don't even mean the relationship drama in S3, I mean the overall misery and utterly nonsensical plotting of S3. I feel like Guggie et al., think that the audience judges each season individually, but at least for me, I don't. I liked S1, really liked S2, but LOATHED nearly everything about S3. So they were, as far as I was concerned, on a very short leash. 

[hogwash]

I don't know anything about comics but turning the cool Black Canary/Dinah I've vaguely remember from a couple of animated cartoons and movies into Rachel Dawes was stupid as hell. Rachel Dawes shouldn't be used as inspiration for anything (I swear she only existed to get fridged). Who wants to watch Rachel Dawes fight crime? Sara was an amazing fix for that. No idea why they went back to the Rachel Dawes fighting crime plan only to scrap it yet again. 

 

Back on the current topic: I really really liked Oliver and Felicity in 401. Everything before the BMD in the crossover worked for me but intimacy and teamwork in 401 was so true to the characters I watched S01 and S02 and was pretty much exactly how I thought a relationship between them would look within and outside the team. So there hasn't that much Olicity drama this season but the steadily climb to the BMD explosion since 408 did not make a good impression. Then to top it off the 415 breakup and the 416 angst didn't even kinda live up to the "hype".

Edited April 23, 2016 by hogwash

[catrox14]

That last article "The CW's Green Arrow will be the Jason Bourne of superheroes" supports the fact that the show does need to return to realism and grit that was "sold" to viewers. Arrow is now full of fantastical elements, little focus on Oliver, his skills and nemeses, and too much drama generated from the Olicity relationship. Over-reliance on fantastical and magical elements is why MG is having to go out and explain that Laurel's death will be real, because show has deviated far from original vision. This has also allowed the writers to become lazy and take the easy way out: fantasy, magic or Olicity drama. For instance, Oliver rarely shows any cleverness in taking down bad guys.  They rely too much on the "magic" of Felicity's hacking skills. It's like they took the early days of ER and warped into Scrubs.

 

Felicity's tech skills were honed throughout her life. She was adept at science as a kid. She graduated with a degree in computer science from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and  she put into action as an actual HACKER. Her skills are just as earned as Oliver developing superior archery skills and fighting and parkour on the island.

 

Neither are 'magic'.

[looptab]

Yep! I totally get it. I actually amended my statement a bit to add that  it's unfair to blame the show that it's focusing on romance when it doesn't focus on it as much as it did in S1, but unfortunately that's all the audience can think about because they're waiting for the other shoe to drop. If you actually look at it from a romance perspective:

 

Episode 1: a moderate amount of romance

2-5: little to no romance

6: a moderate amount of romance

7: no romance

8: quite a bit of romance to create that manufactured drama

9: a little bit of romance to set up the engagement

10-14: almost no romance

15: Almost no romance tlil the end when Felicity broke up with him (literally a 40 second scene)

16: Focus is on romance

17-18: No romance

 

There were actually 2 episodes in which romance was the focus (6, 16). The rest was focused elsewhere.

I agree that the romance drama is perceived mostly by the audience, even where there is none or there is just a small quantity. For example, you listed almost no romance for episode 10-14, and I guess that's where your opinion differs from that of many others. ;)

Let's see,

10 was the aftermath of Felicity being shot;

11 had Felicity hallucinating;

12 had Felicity struggling with PalmerTech and battling against Calculator;

13 Felicity met and confronted her father.

 

See the pattern? :D These episodes had very little to do with Olicity but quite a lot with Felicity, and Felicity has most of her scenes with Oliver. It's constantly being labeled as Olicity drama, even when it's not. It's just character drama. On a drama. Just 14 focused a bit more on that - it had the engagement party - and Oliver mentioning for the first time again after the crossover that he had a son and was lying to Felicity and felt shitty about it.

 

 

On another note, why realism is only to be expected regarding Felicity's skills? Why are people more prone to believe that an attorney with three boxing lessons would be able to jump out of a window onto a ladder of a helicopter without becoming a pancake on the ground? 

[Midnight Lullaby]

On another note, why realism is only to be expected regarding Felicity's skills? Why are people more prone to believe that an attorney with three boxing lessons would be able to jump out of a window onto a ladder of a helicopter without becoming a pancake on the ground?

That's a good point. Curtis cured paralysis in a couple of months but hey, he is Mr Terrific in the comics so no objections here.

[wonderwall]

That's a good point. Curtis cured paralysis in a couple of months but hey, he is Mr Terrific in the comics so no objections here.

 

Oh what's hilarious is that apparently Felicity is even more of a mary sue because she can walk again miraculously, but nothing is said about Curtis... You know... The guy who actually made the tech :p I

[looptab]

I have to laugh whenever I see that argument. Some try to mask it under the pretense that for such a  show, especially when the unrealistic elements become more and more prevalent, some things should be kept more realistic. But then I'm like..have you ever watched TV? I don't think IRL forensics get their results as fast as they do on CSI.  The doctors on Grey's Anatomy find impossible and fantastical solutions for their patients. No character on TV has realistic skills, FFS!

[lemotomato]

On another note, why realism is only to be expected regarding Felicity's skills? Why are people more prone to believe that an attorney with three boxing lessons would be able to jump out of a window onto a ladder of a helicopter without becoming a pancake on the ground? 

Because Comics! ::sigh::

[BkWurm1]

I hated that he was lying to Felicity and couldn't wait for the truth to come out, but it didn't cause any "relationship drama" until the last seconds of episode 15. People who didn't watch the crossover or didn't care about the couple or didn't think the lie was a big deal watched a free drama couple until Felicity found out the truth because they were free of drama. The lie was kept on hold and seemingly forgotten (by the writers and Oliver) for months.

A few romantic scenes between them aren't "drama".

You know what is truly ironic?  We have complaints of heavy relationship drama bogging down all the episodes from 4-8 through now and as pointed out, the drama prior to 4-15 really was more formed in the audience's mind in anticipation of drama until the secret came out BUT I swear it feels like the same ones complaining about such drama are the same one that claim there was no reason for Felicity to leave Oliver so if that had been the opinion, how could they have been watching the show feeling all this potential relationship drama hanging over their head if they just assumed Felicity would be totally forgiving and fine with not being told about a secret kid aka something that had nothing to do with her???

[EmilyBettFan]

Felicity's tech skills were honed throughout her life. She was adept at science as a kid. She graduated with a degree in computer science from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and she put into action as an actual HACKER. Her skills are just as earned as Oliver developing superior archery skills and fighting and parkour on the island.

Neither are 'magic'.

As long as your name is Laurel with a because comics name (BC) then she to some people is the best of all. They showed and told us Felicity is a genius. They didn't show us that Laurel was a good lawyer because she needed the Arrow to keep winning her cases and she kept needing people to tell her how to do her job. Same with the costume aspect of her character. If she was so strong why in these last few episodes did they have her literally hide behind Oliver? To me she didn't earn her place on the team. She just sauntered in.

[tv echo]

Not surprising, considering the source...

 

‘Arrow’: 3 Reasons Why Laurel Lance Should Return From The Dead In Season 5 [POLL]
Fashion & Style - 16 hours ago
http://www.fashionnstyle.com/articles/83926/20160423/arrow-3-reasons-laurel-lance-should-return-from-dead-season-5-poll.htm

 

3. The Executive Producer Underestimated How Popular Laurel Was
2. Fans Are Tired Of Lead Actresses Being Killed Off
1. The Decision To Kill Off Laurel Highlighted Season Four's Bad Writing

 

ETA: Incidentally, Fashion & Style posted a similar article for Castle - ‘Castle’: 3 Reasons Why Fans Are Angry Stana Katic Isn’t Returning For Season 9 [POLL] - but no similar article for Sleepy Hollow.

 

3. The Heart Of The Show Has Always Been Rick And Kate's Relationship
2. Fans Are Sick Of Lead Actresses Being Killed Off
1. The Storylines Would Be Boring

Edited April 24, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

John Diggle, AKA Spartan, is 'Arrow's' True Hero

Eric Francisco   April 21, 2016
https://www.inverse.com/article/14543-john-diggle-aka-spartan-is-arrow-s-true-hero

They weren’t always tight, naturally. In Season 1’s “Lone Gunmen,” Diggle becomes mixed up in one of Arrow’s fights and gets poisoned, forcing Oliver to cure him while revealing his identity. But he had Arrow’s back, motivating Oliver to recruit him despite Diggle’s initial refusal to join a murderous vigilante (Arrow wasn’t exactly a superhero this early in his career). But soon enough, Diggle joined Oliver’s crusade for justice, the first to do so.
*  *  *
Season 4 hasn’t been good to Arrow. The show has suffered with inconsistent characters and annoying plots, but one of the best things it’s done was quickly resolving Oliver and Diggle’s spat. After Oliver betrayed his team at the end of Season 3 (just a ruse to eliminate Ra’s Al Ghul), Diggle was unable to trust Oliver again. Naturally they resolved their spat and learned to co-operate and even love each other again, but those few episodes when they weren’t together were rough.
*  *  *
The friendship between Diggle and Oliver has been one of the reasons to keep watching Arrow, even when other things make fans think about tuning out. Their brotherly love is thematically fulfilling while also serving as eye candy (they sure do love sparring shirtless). Despite coming from disparate backgrounds and sharing no visible interests, they have each other’s backs like soldiers behind enemy lines.

Edited April 24, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

This USA Today article critiques each major TV death individually - in a nutshell, this writer gives Abbie's death on Sleepy Hollow a big thumbs down, Liz's death on The Blacklist a thumbs up, Laurel's death on Arrow a thumbs up, and Kate's departure from Castle a thumbs down - but she then gives the general pattern of recent female TV deaths a thumbs down...

 

The Writer's Box: 'Sleepy Hollow,' 'The Blacklist,' 'Arrow,' 'Castle' put targets on female characters' backs
By Anna J Stewart   April 21, 2016 11:59 pm
http://happyeverafter.usatoday.com/2016/04/21/the-writers-box-sleepy-hollow-the-blacklist-arrow-castle-put-targets-on-female-characters-backs/

Ah, Arrow. Another of my faves and, with that opening episode of the season, we knew someone was going to kick it. My BFF and I had numerous conversations about who would end up six feet under. She leaned toward Thea. I was convinced it was Diggle. For me, there wasn’t anyone else other than Dig who could cause that much emotional turmoil by dying. I was so relieved it was Laurel I actually felt bad. But I’m also energized. Not only because I love Dig’s character (and I didn’t want his baby girl to lose her daddy), but because the fallout from Laurel’s death is going to have catastrophic repercussions for everyone on the team, especially Dig. What meat these actors are going to have to work with; what stories and inner conflicts and … I really think this death can hit the reset button and shove us in an entirely new direction (and hopefully help us forget the Godawful island flashbacks of this season). All that said, I’ve read where even the writers weren’t sure who was in that grave. I think that was a good thing, otherwise they might have dropped hints they didn’t realize along the way (advice I’ve received from an author friend of mine — if you know who the killer is, you’re going to inadvertently give it away to the reader. Same can be said for a victim, I think. An argument for all you pantsers out there!).

Edited April 24, 2016 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

I still don't think the popularity of Black Canary is reflective of the popularity of THIS Black Canary.  The loudest voices IMO seemed more focused on what they wished she'd been than who she was. 

[wonderwall]

I think it's better to course correct to bring back the stakes (even though it's a bit late) than to never course correct at all. I'm glad that the show is bringing back the stakes because it's something that can keep the show interesting now that the LP/time travel is taken out of the picture. Could they have done it without killing anyone? Sure. But we all know the writers aren't exactly the most groundbreaking crew and it really looked like they wanted to get rid of Laurel so why not? 

 

What I do agree with that article though was that her death was lazily written. It's like they completely gave up on her in that final episode which makes me further support their decision to kill off LL. If the writers can't even try with her character, then why have her around at all?

 

And I don't think the EPs are underestimating how popular LL was... I mean, the most buzz she's had is after her death.. Not exactly a winning endorsement to bring her back tbh.

Edited April 25, 2016 by wonderwall

[looptab]

Though I wouldn't say it highlighted s4 bad writing. It just was an example of the series's bad writing, as a whole.

[kismet]

What I do agree with that article though was that her death was lazily written. It's like they completely gave up on her in that final episode which makes me further support their decision to kill off LL. If the writers can't even try with her character, then why have her around at all?.

How she died and how they wrote it is typical of how they wrote LL since the last 3rd of s1 - which overall was lazy. I imagined they would take more effort with her death. But I overestimated them which I've been doing all season. Overall the writing is far better than S3, but its a far cry from great. And it's hard for me to always rationalize that my expectations far exceed the writers intentions or perhaps talents.

[Sakura12]

I honestly don't think they underestimated Laurel's popularity. She doesn't seem all that popular as the character, it's more "because comics". Then she's been lumped in with the other female deaths this season (one's that IMO made far more of an impact on their shows than she ever did).

 

The she got better thing is hilarious to me as well. Laurel having less and less do and her stunt double fighting as BC was her "getting better". I don't see how a character being pushed more and more into the background is a good thing for a character. It was probably good for Atlin since she got more to do. 

 

LL's death was stupid and lazy, that I think all of us can agree on whether we're fans of hers or not. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Sakura12

[tv echo]

Radish is a staff writer at Collider...

Christina Radish ‏@ChristinaRadish
#ARROW fans: Got any questions for #PaulBlackthorne? Let me know, as I'm interviewing him on April 26. Thanks!
2:23 PM - 24 Apr 2016

https://twitter.com/ChristinaRadish/status/724348173242617856

[tv echo]

Here's another one (fyi, Design & Trend previously did an interview with KC).  Interesting that these poll results are almost the reverse of the poll results in the above Fashion & Style article...

 

'Arrow' Season 4: 3 Reasons Laurel Lance Shouldn't Have Died In 'Eleven-Fifty-Nine' [POLL]
Peter Anthony , Design & Trend
Apr, 24, 2016, 01:00 PM
http://www.designntrend.com/articles/74607/20160424/arrow-season-4-3-reasons-laurel-lance-shouldnt-have-died-in-eleven-fifty-nine.htm

 

1. Captain Quentin Lance Deserved Better
2. Laurel Was Coming Into Her Own As A Superhero
3. No More Katie Cassidy