Clock Tower Theater: Fanfic, Fan Music Videos and Art

[EmeraldArcher]

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

I've been noticing something a lot in fics lately, and I'm just wondering if it bothers other people as much as it does me. 

It seems like I keep reading this fics where Oliver and Felicity are in the early stages of a romantic relationship and someone, usually Dig, takes it upon themselves to warn Oliver not to hurt Felicity. I mean, I get it. You don't want your friend getting hurt, but it still bugs me. 

1. Felicity's an adult woman. She can look out for herself. I get shades of chauvinism every time this happens  

2. These people are usually Oliver's friends two. I know he's much more likely to do something dumb, but why aren't they worried about him getting hurt too?

I'm not the only one who gets annoyed every time I see this, am I?

It always rubs me the wrong way too.  I think it's chauvinistic and condescending toward Felicity.

I always love TheShipsFirstMate's stories because she (?) gives me the inner lives of the characters, which we never get on the show.  And, I feel like she situates her stories within the characterizations hinted at on the show, but weaves together the scant details into pretty complex emotional lives.  Her stories always make sense to me, and I think the most recent one with Felicity and Mayo honors who Felicity is and how she copes with loss.  Felicity is depicted as clearly settling, and every development with Mayo is framed by comparisons to Oliver.  When the show does something stupid for plot, I patiently wait for her stories to reveal how the characters felt, and her stories become part of the Arrow canon to me.  I trust her with my heart when it comes to Olicity way more than I trust the people who run the show, even though I know she'll break it almost every time.

Also, I think she's a fantastic writer.  I love her experimentation with structure and themes--she wrote a beautiful story from Donna's POV last year, and she recently wrote a mirror-image fic in which she inverted Oliver and Felicity's narrative in a really interesting way.  

[Hiveminder]

14 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Maybe just me but I don't mind so much that Diggle warns Oliver not to hurt Felicity because he really is a flashing danger sign for a relationship between the PTSD and the inability to know what love is, and season 1 and 2 Felicity seems like she doesn't have the experience to see it and realize what a bad idea it is.  I suppose Digg could tell Felicity to be careful what she wishes for but she would probably just ignore him.  He's screwed up and well able to inadvertently hurt Felicity whereas back then she was less broken.  Now, after Oliver's lies and Havenrock, she's also a bad bet for a relationship and I would be okay with Digg warning Felictiy not to hurt Mayo if I cared anything a obout him.

I think Felicity was optimistic in seasons 1 & 2, but I don't think she was totally unaware of Oliver being pretty messed up. 

But I also see this in totally AU fics where Oliver isn't even that damaged. I recently read a fix where, as far as I can remember, Oliver's was a fairly normal guy with a little bit of a playboy history years in the past and Felicity was a successful adult with no sign of any kind of traumatic romantic history. Still, some man took it upon himself to warn Oliver against hurting Felicity. I just feel like it puts Felicity in the role of a delicate female flower who needs to be protected, and it bugs me. 

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

But I also see this in totally AU fics where Oliver isn't even that damaged. I recently read a fix where, as far as I can remember, Oliver's was a fairly normal guy with a little bit of a playboy history years in the past and Felicity was a successful adult with no sign of any kind of traumatic romantic history. Still, some man took it upon himself to warn Oliver against hurting Felicity. I just feel like it puts Felicity in the role of a delicate female flower who needs to be protected, and it bugs me. 

If that's the case, I just figure that it's not a good writer and find something better.  The only way I can accept Diggle warning Oliver not to hurt Felicity is if he can see the extent of the damage while Felicity can't.

[Morrigan2575]

I just had to quit that hannasus "Into You Like a Train" fanfic.  I can't stand when they go down the angst and make Felicity pine for Oliver while he's indifferent or sleeping with Sarah.

I'm sure the writer will reveal that it was all "innocent" and that Felicity just mis-read the situation but, I just can't be bothered.  Two chapters in a row that crapped all over Felicity is more than enough for me.

[apinknightmare]

Pretty sure based on the tags that Sara and Nyssa are together in that one.

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, that's why i said the writer will reveal that it's all "innocent". The problem (for me) is that she's writing it from Felicity's POV so all we see is Felicity getting used, rejected, discarded. I find it cheap and manipulative, IMO.

I don't know, maybe I'm over sensitive right now or just tired of people throwing angst into fics just because.  I absolutely HATE angst. I don't need constant fluff but there's drama and stupid angst. Right now they're going for stupid angst. 

[calliope1975]

Last night, Wild Dog referred to Felicity as "Blondie" which is what Roy usually calls her in every fanfic I've ever read. Do you think writers are going to add in the newbs? Can I get dueling "Blondie's" with both Roy and Rene?

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Yeah, that's why i said the writer will reveal that it's all "innocent". The problem (for me) is that she's writing it from Felicity's POV so all we see is Felicity getting used, rejected, discarded. I find it cheap and manipulative, IMO.

I don't know, maybe I'm over sensitive right now or just tired of people throwing angst into fics just because.  I absolutely HATE angst. I don't need constant fluff but there's drama and stupid angst. Right now they're going for stupid angst. 

I like the author a lot, but yeah, this is one of the things that she tends to do to play with the single POV narrative. This is the first fic I can recall it being so angsty though. I could see Felicity

Spoiler

reading into Oliver and Sara's dynamic, but Oliver keeping his distance from her didn't make sense, because they ended the last chapter on good terms. So it seems like the distance is just there to sell the misreading of the situation on Felicity's part, and like you I'm not such a fan of that.  

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't know, maybe I'm over sensitive right now or just tired of people throwing angst into fics just because.  I absolutely HATE angst. I don't need constant fluff but there's drama and stupid angst. Right now they're going for stupid angst. 

That's actually why I'm wary of hannasus's stuff after the last fic she wrote-- the one where Felicity got kidnapped on her wedding day and was told from Oliver's POV. Painful angst for 90% of the story with no breaks. At least "Into you" has some fluffy chapters. But yeah, once the stupid angst starts, I don't think it's going to let up until the last chapter, based on her previous work.

[Morrigan2575]

Oh wait. Was that the fic where she got brainwashed and didn't remember Oliver or TA?

[bijoux]

34 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Oh wait. Was that the fic where she got brainwashed and didn't remember Oliver or TA?

Yup. It's the one where she was kidnapped by her father. I don't know if it was Kuttler or some other fic father. I handled most of the angst there, but found the ending abrupt and unsatisfactory.

Into You Like a Train I dropped when Oliver started to feel like a Steve/Barry mix.

[wonderwall]

Heeee :)

http://cherchersketch.tumblr.com/post/151800901068/season-5-episode-2-the-recruits-the-new-members

[Guest]

That is so cute and accurate. They were such parents in that episode.

[statsgirl]

Oliver may have been the trainer, but Felicity was the leader there.

6 hours ago, Angel12d said:

That is so cute and accurate. They were such parents in that episode.

Another reason I"m not worried about Olicity not being endgame.  Why write that if you're going to put them with other people?

[Guest]

Um...how about NO?!

Lord Mesa is fantastic but this is...no.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Guest

[Chaser]

I maybe left a not so nice comment on that.

[arjumand]

4 hours ago, Chaser said:

I maybe left a not so nice comment on that.

I hope you weren't the only one. The whole situation is so enraging. I'm especially annoyed that it being ignored by critics who called Laurel's death 'fridging' - I'm looking at you, themarysue. I did leave a comment pointing out the basic hypocrisy, and was immediately told 'but Cisco's brother died too!' First of all, who the fuck is Cisco's brother, and second, dying in an accident is not the same as being erased out of existence. 

[bijoux]

Did Cisco acquire a sister in place of his brother? 

[arjumand]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Did Cisco acquire a sister in place of his brother? 

Lol, good one. Now why didn't I think of saying that?

[Lily-n11]

[Morrigan2575]

Cute.

[wonderwall]

LOL

[bijoux]

Hee. My favorite is actually affair (boo) because I didn't expect it.

[EmilyBettFan]

That's too funny!

[lemotomato]

"Chaotic Good" Lyla, lol. Of course Curtis is a DnD nerd.

[thenj]

LOL Slim Shady. Love the grumpy pic for Roy.

[Morrigan2575]

Slim Shady LOL

[foreverevolving]

Boss grandma! and of course slim shady.

That's an awesome family tree, so much cooler the OUAT one.

[apinknightmare]

About today's FiCoN one-shot collection update:

I cannot express how much I dislike

Spoiler

the fact that Julie and Ellie know that future Ellie came to visit Oliver and Felicity once upon a time. I suppose if Julie is going to feel like the less-wanted kid I'd rather it be based on some "imagined" bias based on the knowledge she has about the past, rather than actual feelings based on the way she and Ellie are treated (although it kind of also seems to be based on that as well), but...IDK. I DON'T LIKE THIS, IT'S AWFUL. 

I read the author's note and know O/F aren't perfect parents (and I think it's great that they want to show them making some mistakes), but...keeping the past in the past and not letting girls that young know the story seems like...really super obvious? 

Edited October 24, 2016 by apinknightmare

[emarasmoak]

I have just noticed that in the family tree, Olicity is married <3, LOL. Which in my opinion is totally appropriate as this is the only future (and past) that would make sense

[calliope1975]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

About today's FiCoN one-shot collection update:

I cannot express how much I dislike

  Reveal hidden contents

the fact that Julie and Ellie know that future Ellie came to visit Oliver and Felicity once upon a time. I suppose if Julie is going to feel like the less-wanted kid I'd rather it be based on some "imagined" bias based on the knowledge she has about the past, rather than actual feelings based on the way she and Ellie are treated (although it kind of also seems to be based on that as well), but...IDK. I DON'T LIKE THIS, IT'S AWFUL. 

I read the author's note and know O/F aren't perfect parents (and I think it's great that they want to show them making some mistakes), but...keeping the past in the past and not letting girls that young know the story seems like...really super obvious? 

The way she was described in the story about Nate raised a red flag with me. Poor kid. 

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

The way she was described in the story about Nate raised a red flag with me. Poor kid. 

Yeah. The way she's been mentioned so far, both in the main fic (when she thought about when she came to visit Ellie in the hospital), and in these one shots (being a handful, wayward, difficult, etc) never quite felt right, and now to know that

Spoiler

at least part of the reason for that was that she thought O/F didn't want her/love her and/or loved Ellie and Nate more just makes the way she's been mentioned even more sad? Because Oliver and Felicity - based on this fic - are aware that she feels this way. And I know it's possible for kids to blow things out of proportion, but the way that she shrunk back a couple of times, prepared for her wants/needs to be put aside for Ellie's makes me think that they HAVE been before, and...yeah, just...not a fan of the way it's handled. 

[Hiveminder]

I don't know why I keep reading about this dysfunctional family of drama queens. Probably because I've already read all of the Arrow fics I actually like. I need to find another hobby. 

[bijoux]

I'm partly feeling obnoxiously smug for correctly predicting that things would be shit for Jules. The other part of me is sad for both a character I'm not reading about and the readers who still are reading.

[Guest]

I just finished reading the Jules one-shot (it's literally taken me hours because I kept losing interest) and no. No no no. Poor little Jules! I can't believe they even told their kids about Original Ellie. How would their kids ever hold up to that standard? Yikes!

Well, at least I've dropped this quicker than I did FiCoN. That took me like 15 chapters. LOL.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I can't believe they even told their kids about Original Ellie. How would their kids ever hold up to that standard? Yikes!

I hope maybe someone who wasn't Oliver and Felicity let it slip, because yeah. Yikes! The fact that Jules knew enough of the story to be able to pinpoint-at seven- exactly what Ellie had said that upset Felicity? Yuck!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I hope maybe someone who wasn't Oliver and Felicity let it slip, because yeah. Yikes! The fact that Jules knew enough of the story to be able to pinpoint-at seven- exactly what Ellie had said that upset Felicity? Yuck!

It's awful! I was cringing through the whole thing. She was way too aware of things at 7 years of age. That tells me she's not only witnessed Ellie being put first but she's been told things that made her feel unwanted. I thought they might turn it around based on their author note at the start but nope. They made it worse. I give up.

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

That tells me she's not only witnessed Ellie being put first but she's been told things that made her feel unwanted.

Yeah. :( And the way Oliver kept 

Spoiler

observing that she was steeling herself for disappointment, like he was going to change his mind and go do what Ellie wanted to do indicates it's not the first or the second or even the third time this has happened to her. I don't have any kids, but that seems like learned behavior to me? 

[Guest]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Yeah. :( And the way Oliver kept 

  Hide contents

observing that she was steeling herself for disappointment, like he was going to change his mind and go do what Ellie wanted to do indicates it's not the first or the second or even the third time this has happened to her. I don't have any kids, but that seems like learned behavior to me? 

Yep. You don't just gain these feelings out of nowhere. There has to be a reason why she feels the way she does. Definitely learned behavior, IMO.

Spoiler

And O/F saying that they love her but they feel like nothing is right with her doesn't really help when they also say how much Ellie's joy is infectious and easy to be drawn to. Like, to me that's clearly setting up favorites. I don't like it at all.

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Spoiler

And O/F saying that they love her but they feel like nothing is right with her doesn't really help when they also say how much Ellie's joy is infectious and easy to be drawn to. Like, to me that's clearly setting up favorites. I don't like it at all.

Yeah. And having read the earlier one-shots and knowing

Spoiler

the way she's talked about/perceived by her family and NOW knowing that it's all (or mostly) because of this feeling of being unimportant and unwanted gives me a HUGE case of the icks. 

[lemotomato]

I feel like I have to defend Oliver and Felicity a little bit here. Does it suck that Jules feels like she's second best and that she's afraid she'll be loved even less because of the new baby? Sure. But she's 7. At that age lots of kids feel insecure about their place because they see their younger siblings get more attention and affection and they don't understand that it's because they're babies and need more, not that it means their parents love them any less. I didn't see any indication that Oliver and Felicity neglected Jules. 

[apinknightmare]

16 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I feel like I have to defend Oliver and Felicity a little bit here. Does it suck that Jules feels like she's second best and that she's afraid she'll be loved even less because of the new baby? Sure. But she's 7. At that age lots of kids feel insecure about their place because they see their younger siblings get more attention and affection and they don't understand that it's because they're babies and need more, not that it means their parents love them any less. I didn't see any indication that Oliver and Felicity neglected Jules. 

I don't think anyone here implied that she was neglected.

I also don't think it's out-of-the-ordinary for her to feel insecure, but she's obviously got some learned behavior with regards to her parents putting her sister first considering she kept expecting Oliver to change his mind about taking her to see the sea lions (which indicates that it's happened before, which...I suppose there's no way around that sometimes, but in this situation - yikes), and she also has the knowledge that some other version of her little sister traveled back in time and got to meet her parents first, and that they were obviously excited to meet her, and that she came from a world where a Jules didn't exist. 

Why Oliver and Felicity would EVER tell their kids about that I have no idea - I'm hoping someone else did, but given the way Jules seems to be when she grows up it certainly doesn't seem as if this is a 7-year-old thing. It's something that sticks with her for most of her life. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by apinknightmare

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

Did anyone here say she was neglected?

I guess I read "things are shit for Jules" as Jules is being neglected. 

I don't know why so caffeinated had to complicate matters by having Oliver and Felicity tell the kids about Ellie 2.0 to set up Jules being the way she is when an older sibling resenting the younger kids is a pretty common situation in real life. Heck, I have a younger brother and I went through a lot of years feeling like my parents loved him more because they were harder on me and let him get away with everything. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by lemotomato

[calliope1975]

12 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Why Oliver and Felicity would EVER tell their kids about that I have no idea - I'm hoping someone else did, but given the way Jules seems to be when she grows up it certainly doesn't seem as if this is a 7-year-old thing. It's something that sticks with her for most of her life. 

That's what I don't get. None of their children should know about AU Ellie. And I get Jules. I've been Jules and probably still am regarding the unhealthy tight hold on emotions, but having that type of personality/temperament makes those feelings of exclusion 10x worse. 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, calliope1975 said:

That's what I don't get. None of their children should know about AU Ellie. And I get Jules. I've been Jules and probably still am regarding the unhealthy tight hold on emotions, but having that type of personality/temperament makes those feelings of exclusion 10x worse. 

Plus - they wrote in a way (unintentionally, I think) that could've given the audience the impression that Jules was the less-favored child, even before this one-shot. Felicity thinking about Ellie during Jules' ultrasound, the narrator referring to her as "the familiar three-year-old" when she comes to visit O/F after Ellie is born (and having Oliver wax poetic about what kind of life Ellie's destined for as he says, "We've been waiting for you."). And it's hard to separate these feelings from the text despite the fact that I realize the story of FiCoN was about Ellie, and that we got tons of time with her and O/F and none with Jules and O/F, so there's already that feeling of...ickiness there for people who read into those things they've already written. 

And then to find out here that Jules knows about Ellie from before, and that she's obviously taken any sort of favoritism Oliver and Felicity show towards Ellie (which...could be distorted, but given the way they talk about Ellie being an easy child, and having an infectious happiness that draws you to her, vs how closed-off and difficult Jules is, I think it probably isn't?), there's a correlation there between this knowledge and their behavior and the way Jules feels about her place in the family, which makes me very sad for her, and IMO takes it beyond any feelings of insecurity a kid that age would feel about their younger siblings into Very Real Issue territory. 

[calliope1975]

Plus, based on the way Jules was described in the Nate story, it sounds like their relationship doesn't get better. So even if Jules' perception of her reality and place in the family is distorted at age 7, it seems like it remains that way at least until she's moving out of the house. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by calliope1975

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, calliope1975 said:

So even if Jules' perception of her reality and place in the family is distorted at age 7, it seems like it remains that way at least until she's moving out of the house. 

Yeah. It isn't something they're ever able to fix, which seems like maybe they continue doing whatever it is they'd been doing that made Jules feel that way in the first place? Hopefully they delve into that in later chapters, because as of now, given that Oliver seems to have pinpointed her issue with being withdrawn and not feeling like she's wanted, the way they talk about her attitude later in life makes me feel like they're a couple of a-holes. 

Even this from today's chapter:

Spoiler

Quote

The beautiful look of amazement on her face is everything. She's strikingly pretty - some of the kids in her class had taken to calling her Snow White, much to her annoyance - but it's so often masked by her sullen, distant attitude. Not today, though. Not right now. Right now, she's about the most breathtaking thing he's ever seen.

With Oliver noticing how pretty she is when she's happy and not when she's upset (and also referring to her 'sullen, distant attitude' after the talk they'd had earlier), just...yuck. 

 

[calliope1975]

With what's potentially coming on the show, I don't know that I want to read about Olicity being crappy parents. I want happy, fluffy AUs, dammit! :D

[apinknightmare]

I just wish they'd left out the whole knowing-about-past-Ellie thing, along with her feelings if inadequacy. It is totally normal for Jules to feel the way she does, but there are extenuating circumstances in this situation regarding their past that make going there not a good look for Oliver and Felicity. I wish they'd just made her a tough nut to crack and a little bit distant, because I totally buy that O/F would have a kid like that (and they set it up here that Ellie was kind of difficult since birth, so it would just be her personality!). And they seem to be pretty great parents otherwise, so...ugh. WHY, FIC. WHY?!

[way2interested]

5 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

With what's potentially coming on the show, I don't know that I want to read about Olicity being crappy parents. I want happy, fluffy AUs, dammit! :D

Yeah, I've pretty much given up on all parent fics now except for "Time For a Story" since it's the only parent fic that hasn't turned me off yet.