Mad Men - General Discussion

[MagnusHex]

Mad Men 3x13: Shut the Door, Have a Seat

"Very good; happy Christmas."

I really liked Jared Harris as Moriarty in Game of Shadows, perhaps even more than Andrew Scott as I prefer Harris' more traditional take on the character than Andrew's postmodern take. Thus, I'm glad that Harris has one of my favorite laugh-out-loud lines this episode as quoted above. Pryce has won me over with his smugness as he quits. Before, I was rather lukewarm towards him as he still lacked that distinctly interesting personality, coming off like a bland bureaucrat and bean counter. But I think this episode nailed his Englishman wit just right.

The theme for this episode seems to be a fresh start for everyone: Don, Roger, Burt, Lane, Peggy, Pete, Betty and her kids. It's about time Don and Betts got that divorce. I find soap opera adulteries very dull and tedious. Perhaps it's because I'm single and doesn't understand the sacred vows of marriage, but between Carmela in The Sopranos and Betty over here, I'm not shedding any tears over Don the cheater finally getting his comeuppance, PERMANENTLY this time. Though to be fair to Don, Betts was no innocent either and was almost aggravating enough as a mother (I'm glad Don kinda acknowledges this, "God knows they'll be better off without you") and just generally a sheltered woman (especially in regards to her views towards the civil rights movement) that I almost sided with Don if he wasn't acting like such a hypocrite about adultery, physically threatening his wife and calling her a whore (I love his speech with Peggy though; him and Pegs are among my favorite relationship in this show). I know shows like this tend to have a "Skylar" that everyone hates, and that hate is often unwarranted, but it's not even about hating the nagging wife in this case; I like Trudy and Pete's marriage a lot more, in contrast, because they actually feel like partners in love, not just putting up a farce for appearances. I'm also concerned what kind of woman Sally would grow up to be under Betty's... uhm, "guidance."

Speaking of Breaking Bad, it lost the Emmy to this show in Outstanding Drama Series of 2010. It's a tough draw between the two shows tbh; I like both shows obviously for their own merits, with me recently offering a 10/10 score for Half-Measures, but if you were to ask me to choose, I'd have probably went for BB just because of the number of top-tier writing in BB season 3 (Fly, anyone?). I was, to be perfectly frank, rather bored throughout most of MM season 3. I know, I know, that's because I don't have the patience or tenacity to appreciate the show. But for what it's worth, I do think MM deserved that Emmy win. The examination of the shifting culture in the '60s has a very prestigious air to it compared to "Flawed drugdealer husband continues to spread his chaos wherever he goes."

But I have to tell you, there's a reason why I didn't feel compelled to write anything about any of season 3's episodes until episode 9, Wee Small Hours, when the episode and those that followed tackled themes and topics I was more interested in (like homophobia, the Birmingham bombing, the civil rights movement and the JFK assassination). Don and Betty's petty bickering was not my favorite subject matter. In hindsight, I kinda get what Weiner was saying about Betty in her attempt to gain control over her marriage by entertaining the notion of cheating on Don the same way he cheated on her. But Henry Francis just feels so slimy. He looks to be in his 50s and he's hitting on a younger married, PREGNANT woman like Betty. He just feels kinda gross. But anyway, it all just feels very soapy, Don/Betty/Henry's love triangle, almost to an eye-rolling level. And that dull fundraiser subplot too, yeesh. White suburban lives. I'll never understand the appeal.

But anyway, that's the end to this season. Three down, four to go. With a fresh start for SCDP, would the road ahead be better for everyone involved? Knowing this show, probably not.

Edited January 31, 2023 by MagnusHex

[Ohiopirate02]

28 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

But I have to tell you, there's a reason why I didn't feel compelled to write anything about any of season 3's episodes until episode 9, Wee Small Hours, when the episode and those that followed tackled themes and topics I was more interested in (like homophobia, the Birmingham bombing, the civil rights movement and the JFK assassination). Don and Betty's petty bickering was not my favorite subject matter. In hindsight, I kinda get what Weiner was saying about Betty in her attempt to gain control over her marriage by entertaining the notion of cheating on Don the same way he cheated on her. But Henry Francis just feels so slimy. He looks to be in his 50s and he's hitting on a younger married, PREGNANT woman like Betty. He just feels kinda gross. But anyway, it all just feels very soapy, Don/Betty/Henry's love triangle, almost to an eye-rolling level. And that dull fundraiser subplot too, yeesh. White suburban lives. I'll never understand the appeal.

I always found the female characters on Mad Men to be way more fascinating than their male counterparts.  I loved how the show explored how they made their way in the patriarchal world they lived in trying to find love or professional success or just contentment.  And Betty is no exception.  Betty knows her marriage to Don was over there's only so much a person can take with the constant infidelity plus the whole Dick Whitman thing after all, but Betty does not have it in her to be a Helen Bishop. Which I cannot blame Betty here. She's educated, but that education was for show, and her work experience is nil. She also knows what she will lose by becoming a divorcee beyond Don's paycheck.  Divorcees are labeled suspect by all the wives in suburbia, and that label goes with Betty if she did decide to move closer to her brother and his family. She's not going to divorce Don until she knows she has somewhere and someone else to go, and then she meets Henry Francis.  There's a spark, so Betty begins to investigate him to see if he could be the answer she's looking for.  That fundraiser was Betty passive-aggressively pursuing Henry.  

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I always found the female characters on Mad Men to be way more fascinating than their male counterparts.  I loved how the show explored how they made their way in the patriarchal world they lived in trying to find love or professional success or just contentment.  And Betty is no exception.  Betty knows her marriage to Don was over there's only so much a person can take with the constant infidelity plus the whole Dick Whitman thing after all, but Betty does not have it in her to be a Helen Bishop. Which I cannot blame Betty here. She's educated, but that education was for show, and her work experience is nil. She also knows what she will lose by becoming a divorcee beyond Don's paycheck.  Divorcees are labeled suspect by all the wives in suburbia, and that label goes with Betty if she did decide to move closer to her brother and his family. She's not going to divorce Don until she knows she has somewhere and someone else to go, and then she meets Henry Francis.  There's a spark, so Betty begins to investigate him to see if he could be the answer she's looking for.  That fundraiser was Betty passive-aggressively pursuing Henry.  

I will spoiler tag this because @MagnusHex has not gotten there yet.

Spoiler

 

I think a lot of people had resentment that Betty, being what was considered the most desirable in a woman of her time, actually found another man that wanted to take care of her and her 3 children. Even though he was older, he turned out to be a much better husband for her.

She got to live the socialite life of her dreams and the children were cared for by servants and boarding school. I mean we all know that Betty never really enjoyed being a mother.

Her second husband also loved her for her and did not blink an eye when she gained weight. Though, he also loved having her on his arm 'knowing every man in the room wanted her". Her life was actually much better after Don and you can see she sort of eventually develops a type of inner peace.

 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I will spoiler tag this because @MagnusHex has not gotten there yet.

  Hide contents

 

I think a lot of people had resentment that Betty, being what was considered the most desirable in a woman of her time, actually found another man that wanted to take care of her and her 3 children. Even though he was older, he turned out to be a much better husband for her.

She got to live the socialite life of her dreams and the children were cared for by servants and boarding school. I mean we all know that Betty never really enjoyed being a mother.

Her second husband also loved her for her and did not blink an eye when she gained weight. Though, he also loved having her on his arm 'knowing every man in the room wanted her". Her life was actually much better after Don and you can see she sort of eventually develops a type of inner peace.

 

Also replying in spoiler--

Spoiler

Henry was flawed, but he did the one thing that Don was incapable of--see Betty as a whole person warts and all, and love her for it.  Don just cannot love his romantic partner once she reveals herself to be a person and not an ideal.  Of course, Don struggles with understanding this.  He thinks Betty fell out of love with him due to Dick Whitman and only that.  So what does he do when he's ready to settle down with Wife #2 #3, he tells Meghan about it before marrying her and thinks that will make this next marriage a success.  But, that marriage is doomed as soon as Meghan begins to climb out of the box Don puts her in.  And we see Don in the Season 5 finale getting ready to cheat on Meghan for the first time.  

 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Also replying in spoiler--

  Hide contents

Henry was flawed, but he did the one thing that Don was incapable of--see Betty as a whole person warts and all, and love her for it.  Don just cannot love his romantic partner once she reveals herself to be a person and not an ideal.  Of course, Don struggles with understanding this.  He thinks Betty fell out of love with him due to Dick Whitman and only that.  So what does he do when he's ready to settle down with Wife #2 #3, he tells Meghan about it before marrying her and thinks that will make this next marriage a success.  But, that marriage is doomed as soon as Meghan begins to climb out of the box Don puts her in.  And we see Don in the Season 5 finale getting ready to cheat on Meghan for the first time.  

 

I totally agree.

Quote

Don thinks that all his problems will go away if he "pretends it never happens" Of course, this only further wounds him, and the ladies in his life often pay the price.

I loved the way Henry encouraged Betty to go back to school. This is something insecure Don would never do.

 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Mad Men 3x13: Shut the Door, Have a Seat

"Very good; happy Christmas."

I really liked Jared Harris as Moriarty in Game of Shadows, perhaps even more than Andrew Scott as I prefer Harris' more traditional take on the character than Andrew's postmodern take. Thus, I'm glad that Harris has one of my favorite laugh-out-loud lines this episode as quoted above. Pryce has won me over with his smugness as he quits. Before, I was rather lukewarm towards him as he still lacked that distinctly interesting personality, coming off like a bland bureaucrat and bean counter. But I think this episode nailed his Englishman wit just right.

Lane's another one of those characters who wins you over gradually in the background!

10 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

 I'm also concerned what kind of woman Sally would grow up to be under Betty's... uhm, "guidance."

Of course, she's still going to be. It's Don who's leaving, not Betty!

10 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

But Henry Francis just feels so slimy. He looks to be in his 50s and he's hitting on a younger married, PREGNANT woman like Betty. He just feels kinda gross.

It's a funny thing about Matt Weiner, that twice he has a character do something that he must not think is weird, but viewers have a hard time ever getting over--including me. First it's Glen Bishop walking in on Betty in the bathroom and not leaving, now it's Henry Francis hitting on a pregnant woman. It's so weird--and yet MW doesn't seem to think anything of it. 

I'm probably lucky when it comes to this show in that I often love stories about white suburban lives. When I was 12 I got really into John Cheever short stories for a summer which is...probably not that common. LOL. 

But in the end I can see why MW thought Henry was necessary--not for a love triangle or for the soapiness of it, imo, but just because Betty couldn't get divorced without having another marriage to go to. In a way, he's probably avoiding the soapy affair by having her marry a guy that she barely knows and never slept with. I remember at the time some people kept arguing that they must be spending a ton of time together off-screen and really did know each other and MW was like...nope, this is it. 

I also wound up reading a lot into Betty saying her favorite movie was Singin' in the Rain, an old-fashioned 50s musical that was also about big changes. For all that Betty really wasn't happy in the 50s, she's not so adaptable that she's ready to be on the progressive side of the 60s going forward.

[TheLastKidPicked]

On 1/29/2023 at 8:55 AM, MagnusHex said:

Little needs to be said about how the '60s and its societal changes are relevant to the show's themes involving feminism and civil rights, but I find it appropriate that Don and Roger - both men whose marriages are failing, their patriarchal status about to crumble down the road - are trying to placate everyone, telling them to enjoy the party and that it will be alright.

 

There are some very insightful posters on this thread, and I appreciate you very much!

The episode quoted above is a perfect example of what Mad Men does so well.  It shows the main characters with this unquestioned sense of entitlement.  A sense of,  "We middle aged white men are in charge of everything because that's the way it's supposed to be."

But as the years tick by, the feeling is starting to creep in:  "These good times can't last forever."

 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

 

There are some very insightful posters on this thread, and I appreciate you very much!

The episode quoted above is a perfect example of what Mad Men does so well.  It shows the main characters with this unquestioned sense of entitlement.  A sense of,  "We middle aged white men are in charge of everything because that's the way it's supposed to be."

But as the years tick by, the feeling is starting to creep in:  "These good times can't last forever."

 

The funny part is that they were all absolutely miserable during those "good times" despite all their privilege.

[Ohiopirate02]

7 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The funny part is that they were all absolutely miserable during those "good times" despite all their privilege.

Everyone but Roger.  

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Everyone but Roger.  

Weirdly, Roger actually seemed the most miserable during his second marriage.

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Weirdly, Roger actually seemed the most miserable during his second marriage.

Kind of makes sense. First, because he did the worst thing he could do if he wanted to look or feel young, which was marry and actual young person. But also seeing how that didn't solve his problem probably made him feel a little lost and empty...until he dropped acid. LOL.

[Athena]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Kind of makes sense. First, because he did the worst thing he could do if he wanted to look or feel young, which was marry and actual young person. But also seeing how that didn't solve his problem probably made him feel a little lost and empty...until he dropped acid. LOL.

Compared to the rest of the cast, Roger's emotional range was... well not exactly limited, but it wasn't as deep or as large as the others on the show. I don't mean this as a knock to the character or the actor who was perfect for the role.

Roger was the most privileged character on the show. He was brought up extremely rich. He was handsome and charismatic in all aspects of his life. He was the kind of person that got whatever he wanted without trying much. Compare him to Don: handsome and charismatic but deprived and traumatized as a kid. Or Pete: privileged but not nearly as charismatic or as good looking. Both characters had many struggles which the show followed.

Roger was miserable during the second marriage because it was probably one of the times in his life things weren't going his way and he had to contend with aging. That acid trip really helped.

I think he was also sad about his daughter abandoning the family and tried reconnecting with her. It wasn't his fault but he was at least self-reflective enough to try to be around for Joan's son. I am glad that Joan and him have retained a friendship over the years and at the end, she likely acknowledged that relationship would be emotionally beneficial for all parties. 

People like Roger exist and they get by e.g. a lot of celebs. It doesn't mean they don't work hard or have no feelings. It's just they got a much better deal from the get-go especially in the time where men still ran things (and in many places still do). It's really hard to hate Roger as a character but it's also hard to relate to him which is why a lot of his friends probably aren't true ones or they can't share their lives with him to the same level. I really did like his friendship with Don even though it was not always smooth, but Don of course had very few people who really knew him. For example, Roger considered Don one of his closest friends but Don's best friend was Anna and Peggy understood him better than Roger did.   

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Athena said:

Compared to the rest of the cast, Roger's emotional range was... well not exactly limited, but it wasn't as deep or as large as the others on the show. I don't mean this as a knock to the character or the actor who was perfect for the role.

It's funny, just recently I think some quote from Roger came up and someone I know who didn't watch the show made a comment about how whoever said that must have been angsty because it was Mad Men. And I was like no, because it was Roger. They kept searching for the darkness that was supposed to be underneath, like it was a burden being a white man at the time and...not really, because it's Roger. He really enjoyed being on top and knew how to have fun with his privilege.

4 hours ago, Athena said:

I think he was also sad about his daughter abandoning the family and tried reconnecting with her. It wasn't his fault but he was at least self-reflective enough to try to be around for Joan's son. I am glad that Joan and him have retained a friendship over the years and at the end, she likely acknowledged that relationship would be emotionally beneficial for all parties. 

Yes, the thing with Roger was he often didn't want bad things for people. I think he really was puzzled and saddened by Margaret. In some ways she's so much the opposite of him, always finding ways to be miserable when she could just be happy. 

But it's great how he really did still have growth over the series and I love that it looks like he's going to have a better relationship with Kevin. In general, I like the way the show does a good job of showing how good many of the changes of the 60s were, despite MW often being accused of much preferring the 50s. When characters were freed of strict expectations, they could find things that worked better for them and everyone else. 

4 hours ago, Athena said:

People like Roger exist and they get by e.g. a lot of celebs. It doesn't mean they don't work hard or have no feelings. It's just they got a much better deal from the get-go especially in the time where men still ran things (and in many places still do). It's really hard to hate Roger as a character but it's also hard to relate to him which is why a lot of his friends probably aren't true ones or they can't share their lives with him to the same level. I really did like his friendship with Don even though it was not always smooth, but Don of course had very few people who really knew him. For example, Roger considered Don one of his closest friends but Don's best friend was Anna and Peggy understood him better than Roger did.   

I seem to remember Vincent Kartheiser being asked about how his character had to really dislike Roger so often and whether that was hard and he said not at all, because if he just focused on how easy everything was for Roger etc., it was really easy for his character to resent him for it. It's like Ferris Bueller and his sister Jeannie!

[TheLastKidPicked]

On 2/14/2023 at 1:28 PM, qtpye said:

he funny part is that they were all absolutely miserable during those "good times" despite all their privilege.

 

On 2/15/2023 at 7:53 AM, Athena said:

Roger was miserable during the second marriage because it was probably one of the times in his life things weren't going his way and he had to contend with aging.

22 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

They kept searching for the darkness that was supposed to be underneath, like it was a burden being a white man at the time and...not really, because it's Roger. He really enjoyed being on top and knew how to have fun with his privilege.

 

Yes to each of you!  I can't take credit for this, because another poster on here made an observation that was very interesting.

The tread was about science fiction TV and Movies from the 1950's and 1960's.  The Twilight Zone type of shows.

A poster observed that a recurring theme was the main characters trying to get back to "a simpler time".  The comment made was  "Really?  It was really that hard to be a white male in the 1950s?"

 

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

A poster observed that a recurring theme was the main characters trying to get back to "a simpler time".  The comment made was  "Really?  It was really that hard to be a white male in the 1950s?"

 

It's amazing how many movies from the 50s are about what would absolutely be called Toxic Masculinity today! 

[TheLastKidPicked]

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's amazing how many movies from the 50s are about what would absolutely be called Toxic Masculinity today! 

 

We did a rewatch of Mad Men last year.  Now that we know about Harvey Weinstein and the Me Too movement, a rewatch hits differently.

During the original run, we (in our house, anyway) kept saying,  "Well, they were a product of their time.  It's just the way it was back then."

But fast forward to today, and a lot of those scenes are painful to watch.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by TheLastKidPicked

[Athena]

16 hours ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

 

We did a rewatch of Mad Men last year.  Now that we know about Harvey Weinstein and the Me Too movement, a rewatch hits differently.

During the original run, we (in our house, anyway) kept saying,  "Well, they were a product of their time.  It's just the way it was back then."

But fast forward to today, and a lot of those scenes are painful to watch.

 

I think for me the show has always been slightly painful to watch for this exact reason and it's one of the reasons the show is good. It did not glamourize the time the same way as other media back then or even now. 

I say this as someone who really likes 1950s and 60s movies. I grew up with a them and they are portrayed as an idyllic time, but I have an interest in history. It was not a good time for many people and even if you were cis and white, you still had personal issues to go through as people have throughout history. Don, Peggy, Joan, Pete, Betty, and Sally's arcs all reflected that to varying degree.

Joan's arc is really hard to watch now. I couldn't rewatch a lot of her scenes with the other men especially her awful husband and the Jaguar storyline. I really like social history and the women on the show did tell their stories. They could have done more and it wasn't perfect, but it was well written.

[TheLastKidPicked]

On 2/17/2023 at 9:05 AM, Athena said:

I say this as someone who really likes 1950s and 60s movies. I grew up with a them and they are portrayed as an idyllic time, but I have an interest in history. It was not a good time for many people and even if you were cis and white, you still had personal issues to go through as people have throughout history. Don, Peggy, Joan, Pete, Betty, and Sally's arcs all reflected that to varying degree.

 

Very good point.  Back then, there was a theme of,  "I seem to have it all.  A good job, a good family, some savings in the bank.  So why am I not happy?"

 

 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

 

Very good point.  Back then, there was a theme of,  "I seem to have it all.  A good job, a good family, some savings in the bank.  So why am I not happy?"

 

 

They invented mid-life crises. 

[Claire85]

I just watched the series for the first time ever.  I know, I’m behind the times. 
 

In all the years of hearing my own office gossip about the show, I had no idea Don was really Dick Whitman, so that was a good mystery as it unfolded. 
 

I hated Pete at first, but after seeing his parents, and his own despair at his life sometimes, I felt sorry for him. I think it humanized him over the show’s run. 
 

I was disappointed Harry turned out to be such a jackass. I wanted to like him, knowing the actor from “The Office,” and I did at first, but by the end…whew. 
 

Lane! I really liked him, and loved Jared Harris on “The Crown.” I wish he’d had a happy ending, but what a gut punch that episode was. 
 

I hope Don found happiness eventually. 

[qtpye]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:52 PM, Claire85 said:

I hope Don found happiness eventually.

With his new spiritual awakening during the finale, I hope he finally takes some time to work on himself and address his demons.

This is better than trying to marry another woman who will be the loving maternal mother figure he desperately craves.

However, I do expect Don to marry and maybe divorce at least one more time during his life

Edited April 17, 2023 by qtpye

[kristen111]

So happy I found this thread.  I’m watching for the second time on Freevie. I’m on Season 6, so 7 is the finale.  I worked as a secretary in the City in the 60’s.  OMG, Mad Men is exactly the same.  Most of the men I worked for in a big Company cheated.  The managers took clients out for a three hour lunch and came back bombed with liquor.  I had to take dictation from these fools, who spoke to us inappropriately.  
Can’t stand Megan.  She’s like a little girl, and prances around in her undies, like she’s so sexy.  Today, I wasn’t surprised Betty slept with Don at the camp.  It was coming.  Betty is gorgeous, and so are her clothes.  What I thought was very inappropriate was when Sally saw Megan’s Mother giving Slattery a Bj.  Gross.  At times, this show as very inappropriate, but that’s how it really was in the day.  Some men had respect, some were sleezebags.  Most drank at lunch too, but not in the office.

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by kristen111

[kristen111]

Well, I finished.  Why did they make Betty have cancer?  Guess Don became a hippy and stayed to find himself.  He drank and smoked into oblivion.  It was good, but far too long of a show.  Too much office.  A little raunchy tho.  I thought Peggy and what’s his name would end up together because of the baby, but no.  All in all, it kept my attention for a few weeks.   On to Sex and the City.  Lol.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, kristen111 said:

Well, I finished.  Why did they make Betty have cancer?  

Well, she smoked a lot, she had often questioned the idea of getting old and her own mother died at the opening of the show, and it made Don look at his life and choices is my guess. I think it was worth just for her "Your not being here is normal."

1 hour ago, kristen111 said:

Guess Don became a hippy and stayed to find himself.  

No, he returned to NYC and made the Hilltop ad that we saw.

 

[caitmcg]

5 hours ago, kristen111 said:

Too much office.  

I believe some of us thought the office was the strongest part of the show. 

[kristen111]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Well, she smoked a lot, she had often questioned the idea of getting old and her own mother died at the opening of the show, and it made Don look at his life and choices is my guess. I think it was worth just for her "Your not being here is normal."

No, he returned to NYC and made the Hilltop ad that we saw.

 

The worst was that “Bridesmaid” movie he made with Kristen Whigg where he acted like an asshole.

[kristen111]

17 minutes ago, caitmcg said:

I believe some of us thought the office was the strongest part of the show. 

I’ve lived that office for many years, so frankly had enough.  I worked in advertising for a very big Company in N.Y.C.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, kristen111 said:

The worst was that “Bridesmaid” movie he made with Kristen Whigg where he acted like an asshole.

That is, Jon Hamm made Bridesmaid, but Don Draper made the famous Hilltop ad in the show. He basically did the thing Peggy was dreaming about for her career.

Edited May 10, 2023 by sistermagpie

[caitmcg]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

No, he returned to NYC and made the Hilltop ad that we saw.

Right, from the very last scene of the series finale, where we see Don meditating at Esalen and we close on his dreaming this up: 

 

[MagnusHex]

4x04: The Rejected

I kinda feel bad for Allison despite a lot of complaints I found online about how annoying she was. I mean, it couldn't be clearer to me that Don was the dick here, and remained a dick to the bitter end when she resigned, even if it was unintentional. For someone so intelligent, Don could be awfully thick when it comes to women. Even if it wasn't clear that Allison just wanted Don to write something nice about her in a testimonial, shoving the responsibility of writing said testimonial onto Allison and only offering to sign it like it wasn't his problem just felt so... insensitive.

And yes, I get why Peggy was mad - Allison's implication that Pegs slept her way up was... yikes - but dang, I think she could've at least let Allison down a little more gently instead of just, "Not my problem." Must've taken sensitivity lessons from Don.

Despite all I've said though, I'm mad at Don not just because of what he did to Allison, but because he was so close to having a character development when he typed that letter, perhaps mellowing out and realizing his dickish ways of '60s playboyism, and then NOPE, he just stopped there. Guess we have like, what? Two more seasons to go? Oh well.

Oh, and Malcolm X barely gets a mention. FOR SHAME! JFK got a whole episode, and even MLK gets a bigger highlight later on according to what I heard, but Malcolm gets a name-drop. lol

I like this episode though, especially with the melancholic scene at the end between Peggy and Peter as they go on their separate paths (both in their lives and their careers), and that cool rave Peggy went to with her newfound artsy friends. More than anything I've enjoyed this episode, I think Don did feel regret for what he did to Allison, and that remorse did get him to almost be human again instead of his Don Draper facade, and I quite enjoyed that emotional struggle Don went through, even if it's starting to get pretty repetitive by the fourth season. AV Club's Noel Murray called it a "creative stagnation" where the character's existential crisis arc repeats from season to season with minor variations like House M.D. (another show I enjoyed for its existential crisis, but Noel has a point about the repetition).

Let's call it 4/5

Edited January 20 by MagnusHex

[sistermagpie]

56 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

4x04: The Rejected

I kinda feel bad for Allison despite a lot of complaints I found online about how annoying she was. I mean, it couldn't be clearer to me that Don was the dick here, and remained a dick to the bitter end when she resigned, even if it was unintentional. For someone so intelligent, Don could be awfully thick when it comes to women. Even if it wasn't clear that Allison just wanted Don to write something nice about her in a testimonial, shoving the responsibility of writing said testimonial onto Allison and only offering to sign it like it wasn't his problem just felt so... insensitive.

Yes, Don just so wanted the whole thing to go away and here's Allison insisting on recognition. It's funny because for me the worst thing he does is make a pass on her to begin with. It's nice that she was into it, but I can't help but feel how terrible it would be to have to go to  his house to bring him keys (seriously, why is that her job? Come back to the office yourself and get them!) and then have him pawing at me. ::shiver::

The cherry on top is when he tells her to write her own letter, clearly thinking that's doing her a favor. 

56 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

And yes, I get why Peggy was mad - Allison's implication that Pegs slept her way up was... yikes - but dang, I think she could've at least let Allison down a little more gently instead of just, "Not my problem." Must've taken sensitivity lessons from Don.

She does go a bit overboard. Really, it would have been more affective if Peggy had just said, what? You think I slept with Don? That's your mistake. Without angrily telling her to get over it. Peggy was letting out her own anger there, probably at Don for multiple reasons.

56 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

Oh, and Malcolm X barely gets a mention. FOR SHAME! JFK got a whole episode, and even MLK gets a bigger highlight later on according to what I heard, but Malcolm gets a name-drop. lol

But really, why would he get any focus? Isn't his name drop even Peggy questioning if Stan even knows who he is? The show doesn't mention things the characters wouldn't mention. 

[MagnusHex]

43 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But really, why would he get any focus? Isn't his name drop even Peggy questioning if Stan even knows who he is? The show doesn't mention things the characters wouldn't mention. 

I guess it makes sense when you put it that way why a white person like JFK got multiple episodes of focus (and Malcolm X not). But then again, there's that "Mad Men did MLK assassination justice" I've been hearing about, so there's that. It just stood out to me (and a few other articles too in fact that called out on this missed opportunity) that MLK got a big highlight and the other big name of the civil rights movement... did not.

Then again, I'm probably of the minority who just watch Mad Men for the "Hey, it's the '60s!" moments rather than the soap opera. The soapey stuff about Don's multiple affairs and his struggles to keep his identity hidden is cool and all, but that gets stale after a while. I don't even pay much attention to all the advertisement jargons this show likes to throw around a lot as it escapes me easily.

Edited January 20 by MagnusHex

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

I guess it makes sense when you put it that way why a white person like JFK got multiple episodes of focus (and Malcolm X not). But then again, there's that "Mad Men did MLK assassination justice" I've been hearing about, so there's that. It just stood out to me (and a few other articles too in fact that called out on this missed opportunity) that MLK got a big highlight and the other big name of the civil rights movement... did not.

 

There's tons of things that happen in the 60s and most of them get passing mentions, because peoples' lives aren't centered on whatever is in the news. The JFK assassination stopped regular life even for these people. Like, how would Malcolm X's assassination come up with the characters on the show at all besides somebody mentioning it? They're not in the civil rights movement or aggressively opposing it.

MLK dies in 1968, so the world has changed more then--and still all we get with a lot of the characters is an awkward sympathy towards the few black characters. In contrast, RFK's assasination gets just a mention. Personally, I'm a little iffy on the MLK episode anyway. It's not always great to show how these white characters are going to relate personally to a tragedy that's less tragic for them. I think stuff like the Richard Speck murders works better for that.

 

[MagnusHex]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

There's tons of things that happen in the 60s and most of them get passing mentions, because peoples' lives aren't centered on whatever is in the news. The JFK assassination stopped regular life even for these people. Like, how would Malcolm X's assassination come up with the characters on the show at all besides somebody mentioning it? They're not in the civil rights movement or aggressively opposing it.

Yeah, I guess. Like I said, what you said makes sense on a narrative level. I guess I just got a little spoiled by the inclusion of JFK and wanted to see more of the historical events blend together with the story. Narratively speaking, you might be right about how it wouldn't make logical sense for Peggy and the others to talk about Malcolm X, but I guess I had the wrong impression of what the show's gonna be like when tying in historical context of the '60s. Ah well. Maybe this show's not for me.

[heatherchandler]

On 6/1/2014 at 7:06 PM, Simon Boccanegra said:

Kartheiser's commentary on "Red In The Face" was very funny. Apparently the Chip 'N' Dip was Weiner's mother's, and everyone had to be very careful of it. He talked about how it had its own trailer, support staff, and key light, or something -- it's been a while. I am sure I am not doing justice to VK's deadpan hilarity. You all have the DVDs, I am sure.  

This is a very old comment but I happened upon it today.. where did you see commentary?  Is it only on the dvds?  Or can I find somewhere else?

[txhorns79]

8 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

I guess it makes sense when you put it that way why a white person like JFK got multiple episodes of focus (and Malcolm X not). But then again, there's that "Mad Men did MLK assassination justice" I've been hearing about, so there's that. It just stood out to me (and a few other articles too in fact that called out on this missed opportunity) that MLK got a big highlight and the other big name of the civil rights movement... did not.

JFK was the President of the United States when he was assassinated.  It was a worldwide event.  MLK's assassination set off days of rioting in an already volatile year, and worked well with an underlying theme of that particular season of things falling apart.  As a comparison to the mention of Malcolm X, I would look at how they treated RFK's assassination.  It got a brief mention at the end of an episode and we saw some footage as things faded to black.  That was it.  My only point being that he was a very prominent figure, whose murder was a huge deal and they gave it almost nothing on the show.      

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

This is a very old comment but I happened upon it today.. where did you see commentary?  Is it only on the dvds?  Or can I find somewhere else?

The DVDs are where I've heard the commentaries. There's often more than one for the same episode.

[caitmcg]

17 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The DVDs are where I've heard the commentaries. There's often more than one for the same episode.

The Season 1-5 DVDs have the most generous commentary of any show I've seen on DVD. There's commentary for every single episode, and most have two commentary tracks, one with actors with prominent storylines in the episode, and the other with Matthew Weiner and someone else from behind the scenes (writer, director, etc.). I know they didn't continue at that pace for the final two seasons, but I don't know how much commentary they include, because I don't own them. 

[sistermagpie]

On 1/20/2024 at 1:03 PM, MagnusHex said:

Yeah, I guess. Like I said, what you said makes sense on a narrative level. I guess I just got a little spoiled by the inclusion of JFK and wanted to see more of the historical events blend together with the story. Narratively speaking, you might be right about how it wouldn't make logical sense for Peggy and the others to talk about Malcolm X, but I guess I had the wrong impression of what the show's gonna be like when tying in historical context of the '60s. Ah well. Maybe this show's not for me.

 

On 1/20/2024 at 9:29 PM, txhorns79 said:

JFK was the President of the United States when he was assassinated.  It was a worldwide event.  MLK's assassination set off days of rioting in an already volatile year, and worked well with an underlying theme of that particular season of things falling apart.  As a comparison to the mention of Malcolm X, I would look at how they treated RFK's assassination.  It got a brief mention at the end of an episode and we saw some footage as things faded to black.  That was it.  My only point being that he was a very prominent figure, whose murder was a huge deal and they gave it almost nothing on the show.      

Also interesting to remember that MW originally wasn't going to even do a JFK episide because he didn't think he had anything to say about it that hadn't already been said. In the end he did, but it works because it mostly centers around Margaret's "ruined" wedding. It's not an ep about how everyone feels/reacts to the president being assassinated. That stuff is there in the subtext--it's why a lot of people make bold changes soon after. But the text is still these people and their personal/professional lives.

[heatherchandler]

On 1/20/2024 at 9:03 PM, sistermagpie said:

The DVDs are where I've heard the commentaries. There's often more than one for the same episode.

I don’t want to buy the dvds, I wish there was somewhere to rent them (like blockbuster).  I wish a streaming service would offer shows with commentary. 
 

Speaking of streaming services, I’m so annoyed that Mad Men is only on AMC+  I refuse to pay for another streaming app, especially when there is only one good show on it.  Breaking bad is on Netflix (or Hulu?), why can’t they put Mad Men on one of them?

I would love to do a rewatch.  I 

On 5/9/2023 at 1:35 PM, sistermagpie said:

Well, she smoked a lot, she had often questioned the idea of getting old and her own mother died at the opening of the show, and it made Don look at his life and choices is my guess. I think it was worth just for her "Your not being here is normal."

I feel like her fate- getting cancer and dying was hinted at from the beginning.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

I don’t want to buy the dvds, I wish there was somewhere to rent them (like blockbuster).  I wish a streaming service would offer shows with commentary. 

It is frustrating! I don't buy many DVDs these days--I did get the MM set, but that was an exception. When I first listened to commentaries it was when the show was still on and I got them through Netflix. I stuck with their DVD service till the bitter end, but now it's gone.

I think MM was on Netflix for a while maybe? But yeah, I wouldn't be getting another streaming service for it.

11 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

I feel like her fate- getting cancer and dying was hinted at from the beginning.

I agree. I mean, it's not like there's a grim reaper hanging over her, but her ending fits with everything from the beginning. Even the whole Glen thing works with it. She's the character who probably talks about dying the most, often in terms of dying young and beautiful.

[SoMuchTV]

17 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Speaking of streaming services, I’m so annoyed that Mad Men is only on AMC+  I refuse to pay for another streaming app, especially when there is only one good show on it.  Breaking bad is on Netflix (or Hulu?), why can’t they put Mad Men on one of them?

 

17 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think MM was on Netflix for a while maybe? But yeah, I wouldn't be getting another streaming service for it.

I watched it a while back on Freevee. Looks like it’s not there currently. (It had ad breaks that annoyingly occurred about a second before the actual scene changes, but you get what you pay for, I suppose.)

Anyway, my point being, looks like it moves around regularly, so hang in there and it might turn up on a streamer you have. 

[baileythedog]

17 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

I don’t want to buy the dvds, I wish there was somewhere to rent them (like blockbuster).  I wish a streaming service would offer shows with commentary. 
 

Speaking of streaming services, I’m so annoyed that Mad Men is only on AMC+  I refuse to pay for another streaming app, especially when there is only one good show on it.  Breaking bad is on Netflix (or Hulu?), why can’t they put Mad Men on one of them?

I would love to do a rewatch.  I 

 

Currently Mad Men is streaming on Amazon Prime so if you have that subscription already, it is there.  

Also, I decided I wanted my own digital copies and I bought all of the seasons on Amazon and they were, like, $5.50 per season which I thought was a pretty great deal.  Not sure if they are still marked that way or not.

I agree on the commentaries, though. I wish they came as a bundled file with any digital purchase made as well as DVDs since I really don't want to keep DVDs of anything anymore. 

Edited January 23 by baileythedog

[heatherchandler]

23 hours ago, baileythedog said:

Currently Mad Men is streaming on Amazon Prime so if you have that subscription already, it is there.  

Also, I decided I wanted my own digital copies and I bought all of the seasons on Amazon and they were, like, $5.50 per season which I thought was a pretty great deal.  Not sure if they are still marked that way or not.

I agree on the commentaries, though. I wish they came as a bundled file with any digital purchase made as well as DVDs since I really don't want to keep DVDs of anything anymore. 

It looks like AMC+ add on is required to watch.  I bought the first season on Amazon years ago, but I don’t want to have to buy all the seasons, and I don’t want to have to pay for AMC+ even though it is relatively inexpensive.  I’m just so sick of paying for so many streaming services.  Every cable channel has their own streaming app- how is this better than cable?

[Cobb Salad]

2 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Every cable channel has their own streaming app- how is this better than cable?

It’s not.  It’s a win for the streamer since it doesn’t have to negotiate with cable operators for access.  All they need to do is make their content available for people to purchase.  We the consumer lose in the end.  

Edited January 24 by Cobb Salad

[baileythedog]

4 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

It looks like AMC+ add on is required to watch.  I bought the first season on Amazon years ago, but I don’t want to have to buy all the seasons, and I don’t want to have to pay for AMC+ even though it is relatively inexpensive.  I’m just so sick of paying for so many streaming services.  Every cable channel has their own streaming app- how is this better than cable?

Hmmm...Are you in the US?  Because I certainly don't have AMC+.  

[SoMuchTV]

2 hours ago, baileythedog said:

Hmmm...Are you in the US?  Because I certainly don't have AMC+.  

That’s so odd. I’m in the US and when I search for it on Prime, the only option is a “free” trial of AMC +. (I’m the one who said earlier that I watched it on Freevee with ads, but it’s not there anymore.)

[heatherchandler]

On 1/24/2024 at 5:40 PM, baileythedog said:

Hmmm...Are you in the US?  Because I certainly don't have AMC+.  

I am, it looks like Prime is trying to push these extra apps like AMC+ and MGM+ for which I did the trial and realized there is nothing worth watching on that!  If I have a free weekend I may do the AMC+ trial.

[caitmcg]

The Prestige TV podcast episode Did "Mad Men" Stick the Landing?, about how effective "Person to Person" was made an interesting listen. The host and guest are admitted megafans of the show, but had some good discussion about how various character arcs wrapped up and whether the show actually intended us to buy that Don dreamt up "I'd like to buy the world a Coke." 

[sistermagpie]

45 minutes ago, caitmcg said:

The Prestige TV podcast episode Did "Mad Men" Stick the Landing?, about how effective "Person to Person" was made an interesting listen. The host and guest are admitted megafans of the show, but had some good discussion about how various character arcs wrapped up and whether the show actually intended us to buy that Don dreamt up "I'd like to buy the world a Coke." 

What was the alternative? That the commercial was just there to put a button onhow the 60s was commodified to sell things? (I thought that was a possibility when I watched it the first time.)