Mad Men - General Discussion

[Umbelina]

20 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

 

The character I always had the most trouble figuring out was Henry.  His pursuit of Betty made perfect horndog sense.  But, that he became a rock and a foundational icon for his stepchildren, despite being in perhaps the only profession more phony than marketing (politics), was weird to me.  Why was he such a tremendously supporting husband and father?  I get that he could have been blinded by Betty's beauty.  But, the man quickly saw how ugly she really was.  Why was he soooo invested in rescuing her and those kids?

 

@Ohiopirate02 says most of what I was going to say below, but I will add that Henry now wants, probably always wanted, to run for high office, one divorce was bad enough, he HAD to make the relationship with his second wife work.

Also, yeah, lust.  She's simply a stunning woman, and even when she got fat he still say her through the same love and sexy eyes.  

18 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think my weirdest Betty moment was when Henry was complimenting one of Sally’s friends and Betty asks if Henry would like for her to hold the friend down so Henry can rape her. WTF?

Again, IMO, Mathew Weiner's strange and creepy sex fantasies coming out.  He usually had Don act them out with various women, but this time he gave a line to Betty.  WHICH SHE WOULD NEVER SAY, ever, it's actually preposterous, she can't even say the word "masturbate."  When Sally starts to while watching Illya Kuryakin on TV (my crush as well by the way.)  Later of course David McCallum became "Ducky" on NCIS.  

10 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It could be one or two things that caused Henry's first marriage to fail.  One, younger Henry was a workaholic who was absent most of the time.  He's a politician and that is very plausible.  Older Henry has learned the error of his ways and is now a more attentive partner to Betty.  He has also risen to the highest point of his career and is now looking at the descent.  He wants to have a wife and family to come home to now.  Betty and her kids give him that.

Two, Henry's first wife was also a stifled housewife like Betty and chose  divorce to break out.  Years of being the perfect political housewife while raising kids became too much for her.  We saw Henry get mad a Betty for expressing an opinion at a political event that did not square with the Republican talking points.  Having to constantly be on the same page as your husband and his political party must wear on a person.  

Well said.

He was kind of made to be a husband and father, he was still close to his own daughter as well.  I added a couple of things above, but you saved me a ton of typing!

[sistermagpie]

56 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He was kind of made to be a husband and father, he was still close to his own daughter as well.  I added a couple of things above, but you saved me a ton of typing!

I always remember him talking about Don's unreliability as a divorced dad when he remembered all the weekends he spent with his daughter: "So many trips to Playland!"

Still, however pretty Betty is it's amazing he decided to marry her while barely knowing her, and knowing she had almost 3 kids to take on to boot! Though I get why he'd want to avoid an affair as well. He wanted to be very above board.

The only thing that made me dislike Henry was his constantly putting the poor dog out at night.

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I always remember him talking about Don's unreliability as a divorced dad when he remembered all the weekends he spent with his daughter: "So many trips to Playland!"

Still, however pretty Betty is it's amazing he decided to marry her while barely knowing her, and knowing she had almost 3 kids to take on to boot! Though I get why he'd want to avoid an affair as well. He wanted to be very above board.

The only thing that made me dislike Henry was his constantly putting the poor dog out at night.

Many men are lead by their dicks.

I hated the way Harry treated that dog!  

[txhorns79]

13 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It could be one or two things that caused Henry's first marriage to fail.  One, younger Henry was a workaholic who was absent most of the time.  He's a politician and that is very plausible.  Older Henry has learned the error of his ways and is now a more attentive partner to Betty.  He has also risen to the highest point of his career and is now looking at the descent.  He wants to have a wife and family to come home to now.  Betty and her kids give him that.

Two, Henry's first wife was also a stifled housewife like Betty and chose  divorce to break out.  Years of being the perfect political housewife while raising kids became too much for her.  We saw Henry get mad a Betty for expressing an opinion at a political event that did not square with the Republican talking points.  Having to constantly be on the same page as your husband and his political party must wear on a person.  

It could also just be like many couples, once the kids were out of the house, they realized they had little in common and decided to divorce.  Many marriages end without it being either spouse's fault. 

In terms of politics, from what I recall, Henry was mostly behind the scenes for Gov. Rockefeller and Mayor Lindsay.  Unless she was causing a scene, or was otherwise outspoken, I doubt many people paid any attention to his wife's politics.  With Betty, I thought he only cared at that point because he actually was in elective office (or was running for something), and she was suggesting his public positions weren't in line with his private ones.   

[sistermagpie]

47 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

It could also just be like many couples, once the kids were out of the house, they realized they had little in common and decided to divorce.  Many marriages end without it being either spouse's fault. 

 

I think their kids were still kids when they divorced. That's why Henry was seeing his daughter on weekends and using them to do things like take her to Playland.

[txhorns79]

39 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think their kids were still kids when they divorced. That's why Henry was seeing his daughter on weekends and using them to do things like take her to Playland.

You are right.  I forgot that, and just remembered seeing her at the wedding and the Thanksgiving.  I guess he was divorced a long time before he met Betty. 

[VCRTracking]

 

 

[SunnyBeBe]

Jon Hamm is on  the Tonight Show saying  that he is starting to film the movie Fletch with John Slattery soon.  It should be interesting seeing them together again.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

On 6/25/2021 at 12:12 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

Jon Hamm is on  the Tonight Show saying  that he is starting to film the movie Fletch with John Slattery soon.  It should be interesting seeing them together again.

Roger, that!  (slinks away)

[sistermagpie]

So I've been rewatching S6 for the first time since it aired, and just saw the moment when Joan puts Dawn at reception because Lou doesn't want her on his desk. I had never noticed Robert Morse's hilarious reaction to seeing her there. He walks past her, stops, looks, smiles politely and then goes back in. It's like something out of a silent film w/o being so OTT it's unbelievable. I guess the first time I wouldn't have noticed it as much, but now remembering that he's going to tell Joan they can't have a black receptionist it's hilarious.

[txhorns79]

Quote

So I've been rewatching S6 for the first time since it aired, and just saw the moment when Joan puts Dawn at reception because Lou doesn't want her on his desk.

Isn't that in Season 7?  I didn't think Lou came in until Don got put on leave at the end of Season 6. 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Isn't that in Season 7?  I didn't think Lou came in until Don got put on leave at the end of Season 6. 

Oops! Yes, I am re-watching seasons 6-7 for the first time and I'm now in S7. It's the ep when Sally comes to the office and learns that Don isn't there.

[VCRTracking]

 

 

[qtpye]

This mentions Betty.

She takes a lot from Don and even allows the children to believe the divorce is her fault.

[SoMuchTV]

Well, I've finally gotten around to watching this for the first time, and now that I'm finished, I can read through this thread at my leisure.  I wish I could have followed along with the comments as I went along, but unfortunately, people who wait a decade to watch something no longer have that option without coming across major spoilers.  (I had the same problem with The West Wing.  What can I say?  I was busier back then.)

So I'll try to control myself but if any of you get a "like" from some weirdo on something you posted six years ago, I apologize.

Edited September 25, 2021 by SoMuchTV

[LADreamr]

I've been doing a rewatch of the show, and my biggest takeaway so far is just how much of a chore both Don and Betty would have been to know.  They are so seldom any fun.  

[qtpye]

 

26 minutes ago, LADreamr said:

I've been doing a rewatch of the show, and my biggest takeaway so far is just how much of a chore both Don and Betty would have been to know.  They are so seldom any fun.  

It is like their main superpower is how beautiful they both are (though Don is talented and Betty is more intelligent than she seems).

Once the aura of pretty privilege is removed you wonder how anyone could stand them.

Don is so damaged and self-loathing and Betty is (understandably) miserable with him.

She is better with Henry.

Though for the life of me I will never understand how the hell she can say with a smile that she will happily hold down Sally's friend ( a girl who honestly seems to kind of like Betty) so Henry can rape her, as a joke. That line just did not come out the right way and is a giant WTF.

It makes me also wonder if Betty is actually quite socially awkward but her breeding and beauty hide it.

[LADreamr]

18 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Once the aura of pretty privilege is removed you wonder how anyone could stand them.

So perfectly stated.  And I agree about Betty being socially awkward, but trained well enough to be able to cover.  It seems to come out mostly in issues with the kids.  Mostly she's loving with them, but she does have weird moments about what she thinks is appropriate with them, which also brings up the strangeness with Glen, but that's a whole other thing.  

In his more vulnerable and open moments, I feel like I identify a lot with Don and do understand him, which makes me wonder a little bit about me.

[qtpye]

4 minutes ago, LADreamr said:

So perfectly stated.  And I agree about Betty being socially awkward, but trained well enough to be able to cover.  It seems to come out mostly in issues with the kids.  Mostly she's loving with them, but she does have weird moments about what she thinks is appropriate with them, which also brings up the strangeness with Glen, but that's a whole other thing.  

In his more vulnerable and open moments, I feel like I identify a lot with Don and do understand him, which makes me wonder a little bit about me.

I think that is the beauty of the writing. Don was probably the first real and complex depiction of imposter syndrome on television.

He can not enjoy all the blessings in his life because he hates himself and feels that he is unworthy. Women want to be with him and men want to be him but he is actually very much alone.

Most people probably are not as successful as him but can relate how they can be their own worst enemy.

All the characters, though far from perfect, were lovingly layered and fascinating.

[LADreamr]

7 minutes ago, qtpye said:

He can not enjoy all the blessings in his life because he hates himself and feels that he is unworthy. Women want to be with him and men want to be him but he is actually very much alone.

Right.  And most of the women he goes for aren't looking for the real him, anyway.  They see an idyllic future with him, because of their age, lack of experience, and upbringing that that's all that should matter to them.

But yeah, I don't know how you have his childhood and not come away damaged, and hoping your beautiful exterior hides all the ugly you think is inside.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, LADreamr said:

Right.  And most of the women he goes for aren't looking for the real him, anyway.  They see an idyllic future with him, because of their age, lack of experience, and upbringing that that's all that should matter to them.

 

This is why it surprises me when I go back to the beginning how Don seems sadder at the beginning than at the end, after he's crashed and burned. He's happier because he's got a few people around him who know he's a hot mess but still accept him.

[caitmcg]

6 hours ago, qtpye said:

Don was probably the first real and complex depiction of imposter syndrome on television.

He can not enjoy all the blessings in his life because he hates himself and feels that he is unworthy. 

It’s interesting that the one time he admits aloud  the inner fears that animate him emotionally comes about incidentally: In The Strategy, after he tells Peggy he worries about a lot of things, but he doesn’t worry about her, she asks what he has to worry about and he says, “That I never did anything, and that I don’t have anyone.” That pretty much sums Don up. Outwardly, he may seem to have it all (or at least plenty), but inside he knows himself only as a complete fuckup. 

[LADreamr]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

He's happier because he's got a few people around him who know he's a hot mess but still accept him.

I think that's what I love about his relationship with Peggy, and to some degree, Sally.  They're more honest relationships - and reflections of him - than any of his romantic relationships or dalliances.  So, when there is a positive reflection from one of them, it's more validating to him.

8 hours ago, caitmcg said:

Outwardly, he may seem to have it all (or at least plenty), but inside he knows himself only as a complete fuckup. 

And that's the sad thing.  He trips himself up, but he's not a fuckup.  But when you're treated like you are, for all your formative years, and it affects you enough that you want to become someone else and leave that person behind - that's a lot to overcome.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

The entire premise of the show is based on the fact he "advertised" himself as someone he was not.  Living a lie like that, and then having an unreal knack for presenting products, and then having a trophy wife and more money than he knew what to do with - all based on a massive lie worthy of his horrid father?

Yeah.  Our boy had issues.  

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

The entire premise of the show is based on the fact he "advertised" himself as someone he was not.  Living a lie like that, and then having an unreal knack for presenting products, and then having a trophy wife and more money than he knew what to do with - all based on a massive lie worthy of his horrid father?

Yeah.  Our boy had issues.  

I always thought that was why he was so good at advertising--he believes in advertising. he's totally vulnerable to it--he even seduces himself with some of his own pitches. He just wants to be that guy in the commercial and thinks if he's gets the stuff (the house, the right woman, the cute kids) he can step into that role and be that guy. But once he's there he feels uncomfortable and like he doesn't belong. No wonder he only likes the beginnings of things. Commercials only last 30 seconds.

[LemonSoda]

The whole series is on sale again on iTunes for $19.99. I’m curious why AMC keeps selling it so low. 

[BooksRule]

I recently added all seasons of 'Mad Men' to my university library's DVD collection, so of course I checked them out immediately and have been slowly working my way through them (slowly because pesky things like work and home interfere).  A lot of the stories are a surprise, because I just knew a little about the show and the characters from watching bits and pieces now and then and reading posts on various forums. I just got to the halfway point in season three and finally saw the episode that I had heard so much about.  It contained my favorite quote (so far): 

'But that's life. One minute you're on top of the world. The next minute, some secretary is running over you with a lawn mower.' 

[BooksRule]

On the first page of this forum, it says that it replaces the 'old Mad Men forum'. Has that forum been archived somewhere on the site?  I checked the Vault but didn't find it on the list.  

(I just finished watching all seasons of the show for the first time, and it would be fun to go back and read the older forum threads about the episodes).

Thanks!

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, BooksRule said:

On the first page of this forum, it says that it replaces the 'old Mad Men forum'. Has that forum been archived somewhere on the site?  I checked the Vault but didn't find it on the list.  

(I just finished watching all seasons of the show for the first time, and it would be fun to go back and read the older forum threads about the episodes).

Thanks!

I hate to say it, but I think someone once said that when the site archived stuff they accidentally threw away the Mad Men forums. I love going back and reading old discussions so I really wish they were there. :-( It seems especially sad for a show like this one that inspired a lot of great discussion and gave a lot to talk about.

Edited March 20, 2022 by sistermagpie

[BooksRule]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I hate to say it, but I think someone once said that when the site archived stuff they accidentally threw away the Mad Men forums. I love going back and reading old discussions so I really wish they were there. :-( It seems especially sad for a show like this one that inspired a lot of great discussion and gave a lot to talk about.

Grrrr!  I hate it when that happens!  Oh, well.  (I did go through the old forums from the defunct 'Television Without Pity' site that's on the Wayback Machine on the Internet Archive site, but it looks like TwoP shut down right before the last season originally aired, so I don't have old episode forums for that season.  The threads for the earlier episodes are fun to read, though.)

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, BooksRule said:

Grrrr!  I hate it when that happens!  Oh, well.  (I did go through the old forums from the defunct 'Television Without Pity' site that's on the Wayback Machine on the Internet Archive site, but it looks like TwoP shut down right before the last season originally aired, so I don't have old episode forums for that season.  The threads for the earlier episodes are fun to read, though.)

I've been rewatching and listening to the They Coinced it podcast, so if you have anything to say about the show, I'm always happy to talk about it. 😁

[LemonSoda]

I hate that we lost twop and much of the archives here. So much incredible discussion. I miss the episode threads because at times I’ll want to discuss something that was 20 pages ago and it feels like an interruption to the current conversation. 

[caitmcg]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I hate to say it, but I think someone once said that when the site archived stuff they accidentally threw away the Mad Men forums. I love going back and reading old discussions so I really wish they were there. :-( It seems especially sad for a show like this one that inspired a lot of great discussion and gave a lot to talk about.

Not just Mad Men, but the entire category of shows beginning with M was lost, mores the pity. 

Thanks for mentioning They Coined It. Every so often I do a full rewatch (and specific episodes way more often), and next time I do, I’ll add the podcast. 

[MagnusHex]

Had some extra time on my hands, so I finally got the chance to watch this highly acclaimed series for the first time. I had to keep reminding myself that this is set in the '60s though as I watched the pilot, because dang, the amount of shameless, unfiltered and blatant sexism and racism on display without a hint of guilt or virtue signaling. Phew. I guess it's kinda like watching Game of Thrones and remembering "it's medieval times, and people are pretty f***ed up during that era."

Don Draper initially came off as a decent fellow, brushing off the racist boss at the bar for interrupting his conversation with the black waiter, not to mention calling out Campbell's behavior towards Peggy. My initial thought was, "Why do people think idolizing Don is a bad idea? He seems like an okay fellow." But then he got pissed off at Ms. Menken - a Jew and a woman - for probably both racial and gender reasons ("I'm not going to let a woman talk to me like that") and I got my "ohhh so that's why" moment as his true colors were revealed, which reminds me of the title of the show: he's an ad man. It's his job to lie. And I certainly bought into his façade at first.

And yet, on the other hand... it's also pretty easy to see where the idolization comes in. He's a smooth-talking ad man who could talk his way into anyone's pockets with cancer sticks - a magician of words, really - and people just love watching talented characters that are larger than life, characters that make us want to emulate their brilliance and charisma.

Overall, a solid pilot that establishes the main characters, what makes them tick, the world of ad business, and supposedly, according to AV Club, a lot of plot elements that will become insignificant down the line, from Midge Daniels to Dr. Guttman to the switchboard operator ladies. Not sure how I feel about that last point to be honest, but Don Draper fascinated me enough to keep me on board.

[MagnusHex]

S1E02: Ladies Room

Supposedly, this is the lowest rated episode of the entire series. Uncoincidentally, half of the episode is centered on one of the most hated characters of the series: Betty Draper.

By the way, I like this quote I found in a Mad Men subreddit comment:

"This will sound harsh, but I sincerely believe it: people hate Betty because they don't understand how to watch TV/movies/theatre. Characters are written for one of two purposes: you hate them or you love them. That's the point. She's a foil; a device. Watching an actress illicit such a reaction from me means that she's doing an incredible job with some great writing. That's how entertainment works."

As a first-time viewer, I didn't really mind this episode much. I thought it was nice focusing on secondary characters that are peripheral to the protagonist "Big Don Draper" himself (and maybe peripheral to the other protagonist Peggy Olson too). It seems to me that much of the show so far is mostly about the examination of Don's character, who he is (not who everyone else is). Betty herself, very unsubtly, even remarked this question on behalf of the audience, "Who's in there?" as she lied beside him in bed. Don's family seems to be more about Don's ideals of a perfect American life, not so much as it is about the actual family members. So it makes sense that people would get ticked about a Betty plot popping up every now and then interrupting that far more fascinating examination, particularly if Betty isn't that likable to begin with.

And yet, I don't really mind the episode, even with its lack of subtlety. There's not much examination here because we all know how the '60s women's rights movement was gonna go (the answer being pretty obvious), but there's still some depth to be found in the female characters' personal agendas foreshadowing what's to come in their character arcs.

Betty seemed horrified about almost murdering her children in the car accident (at 25 miles per hour)... and yet, hey, let's ignore your daughter being trapped in a dry-cleaning bag at risk of being suffocated to death. I know it's the '60s and it's probably a normal attitude back then for parents, but come on. Common sense here. I was appalled at that scene. Also, Betty... they are called "seatbelts."

And then there's Peggy, who kinda succumbs to the "just put up with the male glaze" status quo by the end of the episode. Peggy's arc here is definitely the more interesting one next to Betty's, seemingly getting comfortable with other women crying in the ladies' room by the end, feeling as if "that's just how it is in a male-dominated workplace."

And Paul. So disappointed in you, Paul, you fellow sci-fi nerd that tried to butter up Peggy with that supposed gentlemanly attitude just so you could get into her pants. Guess all men are the same in the '60s - at least that's what this show is telling me. The one hope that Paul would be the odd one out was dashed.

Overall, not a bad episode with some character groundworks here that shed some light on their hidden agendas.

Edited April 2, 2022 by MagnusHex

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

 

Betty seemed horrified about almost murdering her children in the car accident (at 25 miles per hour)... and yet, hey, let's ignore your daughter being trapped in a dry-cleaning bag at risk of being suffocated to death. I know it's the '60s and it's probably a normal attitude back then for parents, but come on. Common sense here. I was appalled at that scene. Also, Betty... they are called "seatbelts."

I don't think it was common sense back then. It probably didn't occur to Betty that Sally was in danger from the bag or to even think about seatbelts--just like every other woman she knew, probably!

Interesting how Betty always seems like a character people so often felt shouldn't be getting whatever airtime she was getting, but I think she earns all her time!

14 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

And then there's Peggy, who kinda succumbs to the "just put up with the male glaze" status quo by the end of the episode. Peggy's arc here is definitely the more interesting one next to Betty's, seemingly getting comfortable with other women crying in the ladies' room by the end, feeling as if "that's just how it is in a male-dominated workplace."

Iirc, I didn't think she was getting comfortable with it. I thought she was making the decision that she wasn't going to be one of those people crying in the ladies room.

[MagnusHex]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think it was common sense back then. It probably didn't occur to Betty that Sally was in danger from the bag or to even think about seatbelts--just like every other woman she knew, probably!

Yeah, that's fair. But it was definitely one of those times Mad Men shouted at the audience without subtlety, "HEY LOOK, IT'S THE '60S! THIS IS WHAT THE '60S IS LIKE! HEY, PAY ATTENTION! KENNEDY! NIXON!"

 

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Interesting how Betty always seems like a character people so often felt shouldn't be getting whatever airtime she was getting, but I think she earns all her time!

I do feel for her, especially since I was also brought up with strict upbringing like her (Asian parents), but I'm also very protective of children. And from what I've read, Betty doesn't seem to give a flying f about hers down the line.

 

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Iirc, I didn't think she was getting comfortable with it. I thought she was making the decision that she wasn't going to be one of those people crying in the ladies room.

Yeah, you're right. It's hard for me to read what's going on with the characters sometimes, especially since this is my first viewing and I don't have the context of the bigger picture.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Yeah, that's fair. But it was definitely one of those times Mad Men shouted at the audience without subtlety, "HEY LOOK, IT'S THE '60S! THIS IS WHAT THE '60S IS LIKE! HEY, PAY ATTENTION! KENNEDY! NIXON!"

Definitely. They get better about that as the show goes on. In the first season there's a couple of real set ups just for that.

3 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

 

I do feel for her, especially since I was also brought up with strict upbringing like her (Asian parents), but I'm also very protective of children. And from what I've read, Betty doesn't seem to give a flying f about hers down the line.

Oh, Betty has some moments, definitely. Be prepared. She's not even strict, which I feel like can be even worse. She's like not mature enough to not project her own feelings onto the kids.

3 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

 

Yeah, you're right. It's hard for me to read what's going on with the characters sometimes, especially since this is my first viewing and I don't have the context of the bigger picture.

I love reading your thoughts on each ep! 

[MagnusHex]

S1E05: 5G

Annnd Pete is a prick. Again. No news there. Guess Campbell will grow less loathsome down the line. Or something. So I've heard.

As an amateur writer, I would feel kinda bad for Paul if he isn't just as much a prick (perhaps more down the line), especially since I'm quite a sci-fi fan and Paul seems to be into that genre with his Twilight Zone worship. Ken's stories sound boring.

Meanwhile, Don's storyline is thankfully the centerpiece of this episode, a little tease of his past and whom Don truly is. But unfortunately, I've already gotten spoiled a little bit about what's going on,

Spoiler

something about how Don went from rags to riches, something about a whorehouse.

Yeah, I could pretty much put two and two together from that. It's not that bad of a spoiler, since much of the truth is still obscured, but the air of mystery is no longer as condensed for me. Redditors really suck at not posting spoilers.

But to be honest, I can't say I could condemn Don that much. I'm not that close with my parents, and I'm an only child. The idea of abandoning your family to live a better life doesn't sound that bad to me. Probably doesn't sound that bad to most Asian kids like me to be honest, considering the tough upbringing most of them went through. I heard Korean kids have one of the worst childhoods of our modern generation even. At least Don tried to compensate his brother with 5Gs (which is probably A LOT during the '60s); he at least tried to express his own form of love in his own clumsy, awkward way that might have hurt Adam's feelings a lot more than if he had turned a blind eye.

I think that's why among the Big Three antiheroes (Walter White and Tony Soprano being the other two), Don Draper seems like the most likable among them. After all, he has a legitimate career and isn't a criminal. He lives the ideal American life most people dreamed of. Take away the cheating and the lying, and you have yourself the ideal man most people should emulate. Plus, he works out! Jon Hamm is almost a beast. He should've played Bruce Wayne.

Also, I don't really mind the episodic "short story" nature of the show so far. It reminds me a bit of The Sopranos, except that Mad Men seems to offer far more screentime and focus to its secondary characters. I've seen my share of episodic TV shows before, anime included, so it's not really new to me. I know a lot of TV fans like their cheap thrills like Breaking Bad, but I've seen enough episodic shows with a slow burn pace that I've grown a kind of appreciation for such shows, exploring human nature and the human condition.

[qtpye]

53 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

I think that's why among the Big Three antiheroes (Walter White and Tony Soprano being the other two), Don Draper seems like the most likable among them. After all, he has a legitimate career and isn't a criminal. He lives the ideal American life most people dreamed of. Take away the cheating and the lying, and you have yourself the ideal man most people should emulate. Plus, he works out! Jon Hamm is almost a beast. He should've played Bruce Wayne.

That's the rub.

This man has everything, incredible good looks (probably the standard of male beauty for his time), money, talent, and a beautiful family.

Every woman wants him and every man wants to be him.

He is not living a life of crime (except for the fraud) and is not a put upon teacher diagnosed with cancer who is broke.

Yet, he lives in constant misery because he is always trying to run away from the past instead of facing his demons.

He has no idea how to be happy because he never saw what happiness looked like as a child. He just knows the superficial trappings of "success".

57 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

But to be honest, I can't say I could condemn Don that much. I'm not that close with my parents, and I'm an only child. The idea of abandoning your family to live a better life doesn't sound that bad to me. Probably doesn't sound that bad to most Asian kids like me to be honest, considering the tough upbringing most of them went through. I heard Korean kids have one of the worst childhoods of our modern generation even. At least Don tried to compensate his brother with 5Gs (which is probably A LOT during the '60s); he at least tried to express his own form of love in his own clumsy, awkward way that might have hurt Adam's feelings a lot more than if he had turned a blind eye.

Yes, it is hard for some people to understand that family can be very toxic and can bring a person down. 

 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

But to be honest, I can't say I could condemn Don that much. I'm not that close with my parents, and I'm an only child. The idea of abandoning your family to live a better life doesn't sound that bad to me. Probably doesn't sound that bad to most Asian kids like me to be honest, considering the tough upbringing most of them went through. I heard Korean kids have one of the worst childhoods of our modern generation even. At least Don tried to compensate his brother with 5Gs (which is probably A LOT during the '60s); he at least tried to express his own form of love in his own clumsy, awkward way that might have hurt Adam's feelings a lot more than if he had turned a blind eye.

 

Yeah, I never really hate Don. Even in moments where he is genuinely hurting people I so get where that comes from. He's such a hot mess--and honestly, when I rewatch Don makes me sadder at points where his life seems to be the best. That is, he feels sadder. 

Like here, he obviously has no contempt for Adam, he's genuinely afraid of being caught and feels bad about having to turn away love to protect himself. And giving him money really is Don trying to show he cares and wants Adam to be okay too. He's not going to just brush this off or feel smugly justified the way Walter White might, for instance.

[txhorns79]

23 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think it was common sense back then. It probably didn't occur to Betty that Sally was in danger from the bag or to even think about seatbelts--just like every other woman she knew, probably!

To be fair to Betty, the first mandatory seatbelt laws didn't go into place until 1984.  It was normal for cars in 1960 to not even have seatbelts. 

 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Like here, he obviously has no contempt for Adam, he's genuinely afraid of being caught and feels bad about having to turn away love to protect himself. And giving him money really is Don trying to show he cares and wants Adam to be okay too.

The Adam storyline is just so upsetting, and I think it goes a long way in showing the cost of Don's deception.  He clearly cares a lot about Adam, but he cannot under any circumstances have him be a part of his life.

[RedDelicious]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

To be fair to Betty, the first mandatory seatbelt laws didn't go into place until 1984.  It was normal for cars in 1960 to not even have seatbelts. 

Heck, in my state they’re not required by law if you’re 18+ and we do own some vintage/antique vehicles that don’t have them. We did have two cars retrofitted though 😊 That being said I can’t even back out of the garage if I’m not wearing mine.

[MagnusHex]

S1E06: Babylon

And here I am, finally, the one episode many Mad Men veterans hailed as the one that would either win newcomers over... or they should just stop watching entirely because the rest of the journey looks like this. It's Mad Men finally doing what it does best for the first time in the series.

It's understandable then that it's a heavy episode that almost went over my head. There's a lot of layers unpeeled here for the women of this show, ranging from Joan's pragmatic view of sex to Peggy's hidden talents peeping through her subconscious desire to be heard.

I also like the little touch there at the end with Betty prettying Sally up, pushing her vanity onto her daughter. With what little I know about Betty and her mother (I heard Betty used to be chubby as a kid), her fear of aging makes sense, but that little act of putting makeup on Sally still puts me off. She's passing her own vanity onto her, sins of the parent and whatnot. "Be pretty like your mother because that's what real women should be like - all dolled up for the men." Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

But even if that's true, this episode is definitely a showcase of just how feminist this series truly is beneath the façade of "white rich men and their privileged lives." You could start to see how the women of this show are starting to hold the cards on the table. Joan chose that kind of lifestyle to further her career, Rachel has a choice to turn away a married man but she's tempted not to, and I'm pretty sure Peggy deliberately dropped "basket of kisses" knowing it might get her further up the career ladder as well. I read that Mad Men is about these privileged white men coming to terms with their privilege being taken away as the world moves to a more gender-equal state, and from this episode, you could see how the patriarchy structure has began to crack. Women are starting to have more choices, even if it's a deliberate choice to be a bird in the cage. God knows what Peggy being Don's successor would do to these people. The monkeys behind the one-way mirror would go nuts.

I think that, Peggy's obvious strive for independence aside, it's the reason why I find Joan to be a more interesting character than Peggy or any other women of this show so far. Initially, Peggy caught my eye more in "Ladies' Room" as she seems to have taken on some kind of subconscious vow to rise above the patriarchy system and be her own woman (and not just be another crying woman left in the dark), but Joan, on the other hand, went for the more interesting route of using the system that traps her for her own agendas and goals, happily being a bird just to rake in the riches (or as she put it, "a hotel room where you leave the way you came in"). Roger was just a means to her end, so in a way, Joan's using him. At least Roger seems to have this naïve and lovesick puppy kind of love over Joan, but Joan seems to see him, for the most part, as just a tool.

I'm pretty sure this would change down the road, from what I heard of about Joan in later seasons. But till then, Joan's journey in a second-wave feminist world is certain a fascinating one.

And speaking of making your own success in a harsh and unfair world, let's talk a little bit about the title of this episode and the titular song at the end. As a Chinese, I didn't quite catch what the meaning of the episode was till I look it up. But once I basically understood what the context of Babylon means to the Jews, it kinda embodies the lives of the women in Mad Men pretty well, the way they have to struggle to make their own path in a man's world.

It's also easy to see why Don makes that sour face upon hearing the lyrics if you have an inkling of what his past is like. Don abandoned his Babylon, his Israel, for a utopia that could never be.

[RedDelicious]

Joan's facial expression when she turned to face the two-way mirror was everything.

On an unrelated note, I can't believe Greg is the guy in the Kia Robo Dog commercial. Sam Page is a rough looking 45. He's always going to be Greg to me unfortunately. 

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Roger was just a means to her end, so in a way, Joan's using him. At least Roger seems to have this naïve and lovesick puppy kind of love over Joan, but Joan seems to see him, for the most part, as just a tool.

That's interesting because I never thought that at all. I think both Roger and Joan are incapable of being naive or lovesick, though they might have stupid love decisions that they come to regret. Joan doesn't really get anything from Roger but some fun and presents and Roger himself probably knows on some level that if he did have her tucked away for him whenever he wanted he'd get bored. I do really love their relationship. I think Joan gets him more than many people, in fact, and loves him as he is.

Re: Sally, I think it would be impossible for her to grow up with that mother without being told every day in different ways how important it is to be pretty! And Don too, actually. Her parents are both people who are exceptionally good looking at it affects their life in many different ways, but it's interesting how Sally herself winds up relating to those questions.

[caitmcg]

7 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

I'm pretty sure Peggy deliberately dropped "basket of kisses" knowing it might get her further up the career ladder as well. 

I don’t think that’s so. I think Peggy's story is one where she inadvertently walked into a career that she’s good at, without even knowing it was a possibility. Not that she didn’t have ambitions at age 20, but they were along the lines of widening her experiences, getting beyond the circumscribed life of her Brooklyn neighborhood, and not just having the same life her mother and sister led (marriage, children, homemaking). She’s open to everything, but that doesn’t mean she knows what “everything” is.

[MagnusHex]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's interesting because I never thought that at all. I think both Roger and Joan are incapable of being naive or lovesick, though they might have stupid love decisions that they come to regret. Joan doesn't really get anything from Roger but some fun and presents and Roger himself probably knows on some level that if he did have her tucked away for him whenever he wanted he'd get bored. I do really love their relationship. I think Joan gets him more than many people, in fact, and loves him as he is.

5 hours ago, caitmcg said:

I don’t think that’s so. I think Peggy's story is one where she inadvertently walked into a career that she’s good at, without even knowing it was a possibility. Not that she didn’t have ambitions at age 20, but they were along the lines of widening her experiences, getting beyond the circumscribed life of her Brooklyn neighborhood, and not just having the same life her mother and sister led (marriage, children, homemaking). She’s open to everything, but that doesn’t mean she knows what “everything” is.

Yeah, I think I might hold back on these long-form analysis of mine from now on because it seems like I get everything wrong. lol It's hard to get a read on this show, not gonna lie. I'll just enjoy it for what it is from now on.

[MagnusHex]

S1E07: Red in the Face

I'm not going into analysis anymore, but there are still quite a few fun moments here worth pointing out:

1. Betty acting like a child and slapping Helen, feeling defensive for being called out on her childishness. I won't lie - I'm just as immature sometimes, and I do have that kind of reflex too, though my retaliation is usually verbal, not physical.
   
   I'm surprised everyone's so appalled though. It makes sense, since they want to put up this perfect American suburb image instead of having catfighting, but still, it's Helen, the divorcee they all love to make fun of.
    
2. I kinda get Pete's love for a gun. Again, I share his childishness of trading away a stupid dip-dish for a toy. Then again, I'm a virgin and have never been in love with anyone but myself.
    
3. And there's this:
   
   
   I think I did that one time in primary school after P.E. lesson. We all had to climb up and down the steps as exercise. And then I had a loaf of bread for recess. Expel. Barf. Upchuck. The coke I had after that did make me feel better though.

Fun episode, especially with Don getting back at Roger by the end for getting touchy with his wife.

Edited April 5, 2022 by MagnusHex

[qtpye]

On 4/3/2022 at 3:16 PM, txhorns79 said:

To be fair to Betty, the first mandatory seatbelt laws didn't go into place until 1984.  It was normal for cars in 1960 to not even have seatbelts. 

 

The Adam storyline is just so upsetting, and I think it goes a long way in showing the cost of Don's deception.  He clearly cares a lot about Adam, but he cannot under any circumstances have him be a part of his life.

 

On 4/4/2022 at 7:52 AM, MagnusHex said:

S1E06: Babylon

And here I am, finally, the one episode many Mad Men veterans hailed as the one that would either win newcomers over... or they should just stop watching entirely because the rest of the journey looks like this. It's Mad Men finally doing what it does best for the first time in the series.

It's understandable then that it's a heavy episode that almost went over my head. There's a lot of layers unpeeled here for the women of this show, ranging from Joan's pragmatic view of sex to Peggy's hidden talents peeping through her subconscious desire to be heard.

I also like the little touch there at the end with Betty prettying Sally up, pushing her vanity onto her daughter. With what little I know about Betty and her mother (I heard Betty used to be chubby as a kid), her fear of aging makes sense, but that little act of putting makeup on Sally still puts me off. She's passing her own vanity onto her, sins of the parent and whatnot. "Be pretty like your mother because that's what real women should be like - all dolled up for the men." Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

But even if that's true, this episode is definitely a showcase of just how feminist this series truly is beneath the façade of "white rich men and their privileged lives." You could start to see how the women of this show are starting to hold the cards on the table. Joan chose that kind of lifestyle to further her career, Rachel has a choice to turn away a married man but she's tempted not to, and I'm pretty sure Peggy deliberately dropped "basket of kisses" knowing it might get her further up the career ladder as well. I read that Mad Men is about these privileged white men coming to terms with their privilege being taken away as the world moves to a more gender-equal state, and from this episode, you could see how the patriarchy structure has began to crack. Women are starting to have more choices, even if it's a deliberate choice to be a bird in the cage. God knows what Peggy being Don's successor would do to these people. The monkeys behind the one-way mirror would go nuts.

I think that, Peggy's obvious strive for independence aside, it's the reason why I find Joan to be a more interesting character than Peggy or any other women of this show so far. Initially, Peggy caught my eye more in "Ladies' Room" as she seems to have taken on some kind of subconscious vow to rise above the patriarchy system and be her own woman (and not just be another crying woman left in the dark), but Joan, on the other hand, went for the more interesting route of using the system that traps her for her own agendas and goals, happily being a bird just to rake in the riches (or as she put it, "a hotel room where you leave the way you came in"). Roger was just a means to her end, so in a way, Joan's using him. At least Roger seems to have this naïve and lovesick puppy kind of love over Joan, but Joan seems to see him, for the most part, as just a tool.

I'm pretty sure this would change down the road, from what I heard of about Joan in later seasons. But till then, Joan's journey in a second-wave feminist world is certain a fascinating one.

And speaking of making your own success in a harsh and unfair world, let's talk a little bit about the title of this episode and the titular song at the end. As a Chinese, I didn't quite catch what the meaning of the episode was till I look it up. But once I basically understood what the context of Babylon means to the Jews, it kinda embodies the lives of the women in Mad Men pretty well, the way they have to struggle to make their own path in a man's world.

It's also easy to see why Don makes that sour face upon hearing the lyrics if you have an inkling of what his past is like. Don abandoned his Babylon, his Israel, for a utopia that could never be.

 

On 4/4/2022 at 2:03 PM, sistermagpie said:

That's interesting because I never thought that at all. I think both Roger and Joan are incapable of being naive or lovesick, though they might have stupid love decisions that they come to regret. Joan doesn't really get anything from Roger but some fun and presents and Roger himself probably knows on some level that if he did have her tucked away for him whenever he wanted he'd get bored. I do really love their relationship. I think Joan gets him more than many people, in fact, and loves him as he is.

Re: Sally, I think it would be impossible for her to grow up with that mother without being told every day in different ways how important it is to be pretty! And Don too, actually. Her parents are both people who are exceptionally good looking at it affects their life in many different ways, but it's interesting how Sally herself winds up relating to those questions.

@MagnusHex your analysis is both interesting and very thoughtful. I would have totally agreed with you on many points if I did not have the benefit of watching the full series. You should continue with your analysis because this is a fascinating show. It does not matter if you are right or wrong.

In the first season, I thought Joan really had it going on. She meets the criteria for beauty in her world and is the total queen bee of the office. She is also smart and competent.   I will not say if this opinion changes further down the line until you get to some later episodes.

In some ways, I thought she was happier than Betty.

We often used to speak about how Peggy's promotion would have never happened today. Some copywriter would have taken her idea and written something around it. There is no working your way up anymore, particularly if you do not have the proper degrees.