Mad Men - General Discussion

[sistermagpie]

54 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I honestly don't think Pete gives a darn about rebuilding the family fortune.  He wanted his success so he could rub it in his miserable parents' faces, and once they are dead, his triumph was rebuilding his family, not how much he was making. 

I wouldn't say Pete was obsessed with his family name or anything, but I think he does have an arc where he grows into it. I don't think Pete himself is particularly thinking of his family history when he's happy about making money. But that seems like part of the irony of it. His parents treated him as the unfavored child, told him he was the one who disgraced the family name, but in the end Pete seemed to be the head of the family, despite being younger than Bud. He recognized where he was acting like his father, stopped chasing the love he was never going to get and while he was at it he wound up a millionaire after growing up in the shadow of the crash (and started the series seeming like he could be a golddigger marrying Trudy for money). It was Pete who wound up being the one who put the family closer to the position they were at before. He *didn't* do it to rub his parents face in it since he worked through his issues with them in other ways, but had they been alive, he could have rubbed their faces in it if he wanted to. He was, imo, probably more like the Dyckmans who built the family to begin with than either of them. So by the end, to me, it seemed like he'd stopped either feeling in competition with his family name or using it awkwardly to make up for things he lacked personally. It was just part of who he was.

I think that's another reason that scene with the headmaster is so funny. Pete correctly says that it's insane for the guy to care about this thing that happened hundreds of years ago...but he still passionately defends his own family's version of events and then punches the guy out.

[voiceover]

Hey!  MM Braintrust! (said with respect and a wink to Scrubs)  Did I miss what happened to Lou after the McCann buyout, or has it not yet been revealed (per the Audience Channel reruns)?

Also:  When/how did Pete come back around to being a Don supporter?  I remember Pete storming into Don's office before the SCDP partners arrived, then being furious because he felt like Don wasn't on his side.  FF to California, where Pete appears to be back as a Draper Fan.  Was it just his time away from NY, that we're meant to assume, melts away his anger?

[Melancholy]

19 hours ago, voiceover said:

Hey!  MM Braintrust! (said with respect and a wink to Scrubs)  Did I miss what happened to Lou after the McCann buyout, or has it not yet been revealed (per the Audience Channel reruns)?

Also:  When/how did Pete come back around to being a Don supporter?  I remember Pete storming into Don's office before the SCDP partners arrived, then being furious because he felt like Don wasn't on his side.  FF to California, where Pete appears to be back as a Draper Fan.  Was it just his time away from NY, that we're meant to assume, melts away his anger?

The Lou reveal hasn't happened. 

I didn't think Pete was *that* pissed about Don being dismissive over Pete's concerns on the CGC partners. We saw him literally mellow out over a joint, lol. And that was Pete's concern- so of course, Pete would be on Don's side on Cutler's mission to toss Don out and leave CGC Ted in charge of creative, especially when Ted was ticking Pete off in California every day. 

[voiceover]

Thanks @Melancholy!  Now I remember: Pete grabbed the joint away from someone in creative.

I hope I might enjoy watching Lou's fate like Roger enjoyed Burt Peterson's.

[Melancholy]

And you know, I think Pete just felt sympathy for Don- captured by the hug in LA.  You wouldn't know it from most of the partners but I think it's *normal* to feel kindly and sympathetic that a guy you've worked with for over 8 years, your partner had a public, tearful breakdown based in trauma and pain and to care more about that than whether they didn't land Hershey because of it. I don't consider myself a soft touch but I think I'd care more about my partner having a nervous breakdown than whether it lost a potential client. Just How to Human. I think Pete occupied that normal place that balances the human side and the fruitfully productive side of business. 

[ivygirl]

Interesting point, @Melancholy. I'm so used to looking for Creepy Pete to be creepy that I have missed moments like that. But they do show us small glimpses of Pete's ability to become the kind of man who would return in a genuinely repentant manner to his wife, with a genuine desire to rebuild his family. Maybe I picked up on those cues subconsciously, because I really did believe him at the end of the series. More than any of the other characters, I believe Pete had a turnaround. Roger and Joan seemed to settle into new roles, but not look back reflectively; Peggy was seemingly on an upward trajectory (but not *changing* per se); Harry was... Harry, and would probably remain Harry; and Don... well, I seriously doubt that he changed into a retreat facilitator at Esalen. Betty's fate felt like the end of an era for a certain kind of woman.

Edited October 12, 2017 by ivygirl

[voiceover]

Aaaaannnddd...there goes Lou.  I was dead-on with my earlier comparison.  After going AWOL, Frank Burns was promoted & shipped stateside...  

...Where he ended up writing a monkey comic strip to get him out of advertising.

Fuck off, Lou.

[Melancholy]

Jon Hamm is particularly hilarious on that conversation with Lou- how his eye roll is so big that his whole face and neck joins in, how he spits out "What are you talking about?", how the whole conversation just exhausted him into requiring another nap. One of the great things about Don/Jon Hamm is how he was far more expressive and voluble on his feelings in the later seasons. So in the early seasons, it was a master class in very subtle acting but the later seasons had a comedy aspects of those subtle aspects of Don becoming full on expressive quirks. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Melancholy

[charmed1]

I've noticed that now that the episodes are in syndication, they have full episode descriptions, unlike those vague, two sentence descriptions we used to get in the first go round. Like, Don gets a gift, Peggy thinks. 

[voiceover]

4 hours ago, Melancholy said:

 So in the early seasons, it was a master class in very subtle acting but the later seasons had a comedy aspects of those subtle aspects of Don becoming full on expressive quirks. 

Good catch.  I venture to say it's partly an age thing.  As you get older, you care less about hiding your reactions.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, charmed1 said:

I've noticed that now that the episodes are in syndication, they have full episode descriptions, unlike those vague, two sentence descriptions we used to get in the first go round. Like, Don gets a gift, Peggy thinks. 

The speculation of what an episode would be based on the preview and description was truly an art.

[txhorns79]

Quote

 

The speculation of what an episode would be based on the preview and description was truly an art.

 

Indeed.  For fun, I looked at the episode description for In Care Of, the sixth season finale on AMC.com, and all it says is: "Don has a problem." 

[caitmcg]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Indeed.  For fun, I looked at the episode description for In Care Of, the sixth season finale on AMC.com, and all it says is: "Don has a problem." 

Which description could pretty much apply to every episode in the series...

[TigerLynx]

On 10/13/2017 at 2:52 PM, voiceover said:

Good catch.  I venture to say it's partly an age thing.  As you get older, you care less about hiding your reactions.

While Don and Roger were friends in the early seasons, I got the impression in the final seasons that they really valued that friendship more than they did early on.  I don't know if it was everything they had been through, or if they just felt really comfortable being themselves with each other.  In one of the early episodes, Don and Roger are leaving work, and in the background some of the employees are disagreeing with each other.  Eventually, the fight gets physical, and people are trying to break it up, and Don and Roger just keep walking out the door talking to each other.

[voiceover]

We learned "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing" in elementary school, and sang it in concert.  So when I watched the ad (which I vaguely remember from real time),  I remembered ALL the non-Coke lyrics ("I'd like to hold it in my arms and keep it company" replaced "...buy the world a Coke...").

I grudgingly admit some of the post-Season 3 eps have improved with time & personal perspective.  The first time, I agreed that Don's last trek westward was in character.  But I'd hated it.

Now, I get it.  And only wish I had the funds to do the same. 

[voiceover]

Hmm.  I completely forgot that it was Paul, first put the idea of "female copywriter" in Peggy's head.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I grudgingly admit some of the post-Season 3 eps have improved with time & personal perspective.  The first time, I agreed that Don's last trek westward was in character.  But I'd hated it.

Now, I get it.  And only wish I had the funds to do the same. 

Heh, I think I'd just fly direct to California and avoid the drive.  And, of course, I'd take TWA, first class, all the way.  Though maybe Continental or Braniff would be better.  Those Braniff stewardesses had the most awesome uniforms in the 60s.

More seriously, I think my only real complaint with the last season of episode was Diana.  She seriously sucked the life out of her scenes.

[voiceover]

I can't remember if Rachel ever admitted Don wasn't her first married man. 

Regardless, she sure summed up Life as The Mistress: I'm just supposed to live my life alongside yours?

Ouch.  Accurate, but -- ouch.

Edited October 20, 2017 by voiceover
Dept of Redundancy Dept

[voiceover]

Mad Men staff: During Pete & Peggy's last scene, she says to him: "A thing like that!"

Wasn't she quoting him, back to him?  Anyone remember which ep the original line was from?

[Pop Tart]

Quote

Mad Men staff: During Pete & Peggy's last scene, she says to him: "A thing like that!"

Wasn't she quoting him, back to him?  Anyone remember which ep the original line was from?

It's from season 2 when Peggy tells Pete that Freddy is going to present her Belle Jolie copy to the clients. Pete says it then. So it's come full circle. Her first time getting work in front of clients and then him telling her she'll achieve her ambitions.

[voiceover]

Thanks!  I just knew it was a callback; just couldn't remember what it was calling back to. 

[voiceover]

Just watched Roger re-hire Pete, and credit Don...and Don flinched!

How did I not see that before?  I am laughing my ass off!!

[txhorns79]

Quote

Just watched Roger re-hire Pete, and credit Don...and Don flinched!

How did I not see that before?  I am laughing my ass off!!

What amazes me is that even after Pete was led to believe Don stuck his neck out for him and saved his job, Pete still comes back later that season and blackmails Don!  

 

As an aside...it's almost Halloween?  Who is going as a gypsy and who is going as a hobo?   

[TigerLynx]

I thought Don/Pete's relationship was interesting with the back and forth.  Pete at times seemed to admire Don, resent/dislike him, and then settled on Don was just a guy with flaws like anyone else and was neither hero nor villain.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I thought Don/Pete's relationship was interesting with the back and forth.  Pete at times seemed to admire Don, resent/dislike him, and then settled on Don was just a guy with flaws like anyone else and was neither hero nor villain.

I think they finally reached a happy medium when Pete found out that Don covered his share when Lucky Strike left.  Until then, it felt like it was Don just getting away with his bs, while Pete had to pick up the pieces.  I mean, the episode where Pete had to resign North American Aviation (in order to protect Don) and he was screamed at by Roger was just painful.   

[Melancholy]

48 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think they finally reached a happy medium when Pete found out that Don covered his share when Lucky Strike left.  Until then, it felt like it was Don just getting away with his bs, while Pete had to pick up the pieces.  I mean, the episode where Pete had to resign North American Aviation (in order to protect Don) and he was screamed at by Roger was just painful.   

Well, I think it was more complicated than that. It was a see-saw of favors and self-interest before the end of S4. Don gave Pete a gift by retaining Pete after Pete blackmailed him and then, by comforting Pete after his dad died soon after as part of Don not punishing Pete for blackmailing him. Then, Pete picked up the pieces of Don ditching Pete in CA at the end of S2. Then, Don extended a partnership offer to Pete in his new business- a huge opportunity. Then, Pete didn't *have* to resign NAA. He could have accepted Don's offer to run away but Pete wanted to retain the rainmaker in the new business. 

I'm introducing my boyfriend to Mad Men and we just finished S1. Actually, he spoke aloud during The Wheel after Don learned Adam committed suicide. He basically said, "Man, Don is going to be so mad at Pete that Adam committed suicide while Pete was sitting on Adam's efforts to communicate with Don for blackmail purposes." It was an interesting thought. I mean, we know that it's not the case as the facts occurred. Adam committed suicide IMMEDIATELY after sending the Dick Whitman Gift Box. Mailing that box was part of Adam putting his affairs in order before killing himself. But Don didn't know that. But then, Don didn't know how long Pete had the Box. I think it was a week and Don dilly-dallid like two weeks between Election Day and before Thanksgiving to try calling Adam. However, I could see plenty of people in Don's position getting angry at Pete for sitting on last contact from a family before a suicide. It feels like a dick move/avoidance of responsibility but that's most people. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

However, I could see plenty of people in Don's position getting angry at Pete for sitting on last contact from a family before a suicide. It feels like a dick move/avoidance of responsibility but that's most people. 

I give Don credit in not trying to lay that on Pete.  I mean, I cannot even imagine how horrific and devastating it must have been for Adam to momentarily have Don back in his life, only to have Don essentially announce he wanted nothing to do with Adam and give him money to go away and never return.  I think Don understood that it was he who let Adam down.     

Quote

Then, Pete didn't *have* to resign NAA. He could have accepted Don's offer to run away but Pete wanted to retain the rainmaker in the new business. 

It wasn't really much of a choice.   The business would likely have collapsed without Don (particularly in a situation where Don just mysteriously vanishes never to return), and I think both Pete and Don recognized that.     

[sistermagpie]

Didn't Don only contact Adam due to something that happened in that ep? I can't remember.

[Melancholy]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Didn't Don only contact Adam due to something that happened in that ep? I can't remember.

Well, it's subtle but Don was goaded to get back in touch with Adam when Betty was upset that Don wasn't going to her dad's house for Thanksgiving and was all, "I don't know why you can't make my family your family." It pushed Don to pick his family because he really didn't want to pick Gene/William as his family. 

21 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

It wasn't really much of a choice.   The business would likely have collapsed without Don (particularly in a situation where Don just mysteriously vanishes never to return), and I think both Pete and Don recognized that.     

I agree that it was an *obvious* choice. Pete would have been fucked worse if Don left. However, still, Pete didn't *have* to let NAA go. Don didn't "make" Pete let NAA go. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Melancholy

[voiceover]

Aha!  "The Hobo Code": Pete & Peggy are riding up in the elevator, and Peggy mentions that she's nervous because Freddie's pitching her Belle Jolie campaign that morning, and a stressed Pete remarks, "A thing like that!"  

That's some freakin' callback!!

eta: Which is exactly what @poptart said Monday.  I was just so excited!!  And I am a giant dork.

One of my favorite moments: Freddie says Peggy's a writer because, "You're arrogant enough."  Then she refuses Don's offer of a second drink, and Don and Freddie almost chorus: "Not a writer!"

Exactly.

Edited October 27, 2017 by voiceover

[Domestic Assassin]

"A thing like that!" is pretty much Pete's catch phrase.

[sistermagpie]

In the commentary they said that it was so much his catch phrase they really wanted her to say it back to him for that.

[voiceover]

On 10/28/2017 at 8:25 AM, sistermagpie said:

In the commentary they said that it was so much his catch phrase they really wanted her to say it back to him for that.

And it worked so well, it was like a sock to the jaw.

That's why they call it "payoff", my friends.

Edited October 30, 2017 by voiceover

[VCRTracking]

I always wish there were more Roger + Peggy scenes because the ones we got were so great, especially in the last season. Roger pretty much wants to and has bedded women younger than Peggy but I guess because he isn't attracted to her, treats her like a person. It was almost paternal in the end. since his own daughter hates him.

Edited November 4, 2017 by VCRTracking

[voiceover]

J'adore the description of The Defenders ("Lawyers...but, you know, they 'care'.")

[voiceover]

Bwah! "Mommy said you broke the hi-fi.  I believe her.  Don't do it again."  Loved it.

This whole "dreading Daddy, but Mommy's worse" is familiar.  Even though my darling dad had a temper, and the threat of "Wait 'til your father gets home!" made us nervous, eventually I realized: my mother? More of a hardass.

[voiceover]

It's Tilden Katz Day!

Wow, didn't Rachel's pendulum swing the other way.  She went from Tyrone Power to...um.  The rich guy (Tommy Noonan) Marilyn Monroe snagged in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes.  I'm sure he had a great personality.

[Constant Viewer]

49 minutes ago, voiceover said:

It's Tilden Katz Day!

Wow, didn't Rachel's pendulum swing the other way.  She went from Tyrone Power to...um.  The rich guy (Tommy Noonan) Marilyn Monroe snagged in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes.  I'm sure he had a great personality.

I wondered about this too.  Maybe Tilden was the guy her sister was raving about to her on the phone who was a great conversationalist. 

Rachel is still my favorite of Don's paramours.

[voiceover]

2 hours ago, Constant Viewer said:

Rachel is still my favorite of Don's paramours.

Co-sign.  The rest of them could be neatly divided in into the "Madonna/ Whore" categories, but I got the sense that those two had a mental link; a shared sense of the Outcast.

Plus, she was smarter than he was.  Not by much, but it was there. 

[Neko]

Rachel Menken was Don's Irene Adler.

[voiceover]

3 hours ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

Rachel Menken was Don's Irene Adler.

Niiiiiiiiiice!

[sistermagpie]

On 11/10/2017 at 9:42 PM, voiceover said:

Co-sign.  The rest of them could be neatly divided in into the "Madonna/ Whore" categories, but I got the sense that those two had a mental link; a shared sense of the Outcast.

Except Faye, I would say. She was the other woman who was, imo, a pretty normal relationship. She and Don didn't have the kind of connection Don and Rachel did, but she seemed more to me like a regular relationship rather than a woman who seemed to symbolize something like that.

[Neko]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Except Faye, I would say. She was the other woman who was, imo, a pretty normal relationship. She and Don didn't have the kind of connection Don and Rachel did, but she seemed more to me like a regular relationship rather than a woman who seemed to symbolize something like that.

You know, you're completely right about this.  I never liked Faye that much, but of all Don's women, including Betty, she was the only one who seemed like a normal person.  There was no sweeping fantasy romance or seedy disillusionment with her, she was just Faye.  That's kind of nice.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

You know, you're completely right about this.  I never liked Faye that much, but of all Don's women, including Betty, she was the only one who seemed like a normal person.  There was no sweeping fantasy romance or seedy disillusionment with her, she was just Faye.  That's kind of nice.

She was a good choice for Don to date during that period in S4 where he was really honestly working on himself instead of falling into his old patterns. It was almost better that she didn't seem overly perfect for him because it wasn't about her being The One or even The One He Should Have Picked (that was Rachel if anyone, probably). It was just about having a flawed relationship between him and another flawed person.

[voiceover]

Faye: the Outlier.

[Inquisitionist]

Faye always struck me as the woman most likely to pop up again in Don's professional life.  I hope she was happily settled with someone who didn't expect her to cook or pick up after him by the time the stories of Don's Hershey meltdown reached her.  Talk about an occasion for schadenfreude!

[qtpye]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

She was a good choice for Don to date during that period in S4 where he was really honestly working on himself instead of falling into his old patterns. It was almost better that she didn't seem overly perfect for him because it wasn't about her being The One or even The One He Should Have Picked (that was Rachel if anyone, probably). It was just about having a flawed relationship between him and another flawed person.

 

5 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Faye always struck me as the woman most likely to pop up again in Don's professional life.  I hope she was happily settled with someone who didn't expect her to cook or pick up after him by the time the stories of Don's Hershey meltdown reached her.  Talk about an occasion for schadenfreude!

Faye was the closest to a modern female that Don ever dated.  She could probably easily fit into our 2017 world.  Don was perlexed by a woman who totally acted like his equal and refused to cater or indulge his bad behaviors.  He was shocked when she called him out for leaving Sally with her and that she really did not enjoy children.  Though, in all fairness, that would be problematic for a man with three children.  In comparison Megan gave him unconditional support , no matter what he did and liked taking care of his kids and loved advertising.  In Don's mind Faye was hard and Megan was easy.

[voiceover]

I never really liked Duck as a character, but I liked *moments* of him.  Today it was when he was a good father in front of his kids, and the better man after hearing about his ex's new man, trying to buy his son's affection.

[Melancholy]

I liked Faye a lot. For my money, Faye had Rachel's strengths but Faye was cuter and warmer. I didn't read that Faye didn't like children. She was nice to Sally. Faye said, "I love children, but I chose to be where I am. I don't view it as a failure." IMO, that's means exactly what it sounds. Faye likes children but she did make specific choices to pursue her career as a professional instead finding a husband so she could have babies as soon as possible. Fans insulted Faye for getting emotional at her "failure" with Sally as an example of her being "Weak" and "Weird About Don" or whatever. However, IMO, I didn't see Faye's freak-out as being purely about Don but instead, about Faye's own issues in how she loves children but she had to pick a career because she couldn't have both so her "rustiness" and "ineptness" in this very elemental feminine role of mothering really cuts her at her core. Like, she's made choices that make her a failure at her "biological imperative" no matter what she does in the future. It's kind of a less over-wrought, less-for-the-purposes-of-shipper-bait version of what Peggy was doing in Time & Life. Meanwhile, Megan did continue watching Don's kids to a limited extent as a wifely duty but I feel like her "joy" in doing that concluded with her role as the babysitter. Starting very quickly in S5, I get the impression that Megan considered the kids an obligation and increasingly a "your messed up kids" annoyance. 

I do think Don was fulfilling an "ideal" in his relationship with Faye as much as any of the other women. Faye was a tool for self-improvement or more accurately, finding equilibrium to Don. It's just different where Don didn't ever believe that The Magic of Faye and Their Connection would confer instant happiness and secureness on him- unlike Don and a lot of the other women. Rather, Don thought Faye's hard-ass insistence on a conventional dating relationship would be a good impetus for him to straighten out and IMO, he subconsciously reached out to her as a therapist even though he'd never consciously go see one. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

27 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I didn't read that Faye didn't like children. She was nice to Sally. Faye said, "I love children, but I chose to be where I am. I don't view it as a failure." IMO, that's means exactly what it sounds. Faye likes children but she did make specific choices to pursue her career as a professional instead finding a husband so she could have babies as soon as possible. Fans insulted Faye for getting emotional at her "failure" with Sally as an example of her being "Weak" and "Weird About Don" or whatever.

Yeah, I think Faye was put in a terrible position in that ep that was humiliating. If she were a man she'd never have been put into it, or if she was, she wouldn't have been judged the same way. But she got that when she was asked to take care of Sally she was supposed to be a natural with children and she just wasn't. She wasn't bad with Sally or cold--I mean, she was bad with her in that she had no experience with exactly what Sally's age was so thought shew as supposed to talk like a kindergarten teacher, but she wasn't "bad" in terms of being insensitive to her, which is why she stops that pretty quickly. Then Don even gives Faye the job of talking to Sally when she's upset. What person on earth would want to be put in that position? Imagine Don suggesting Roger do that because he's in accounts so he's supposed to be good at cajoling people!

That's a great connection with Peggy, who also feels judged around children. As a woman it's assumed she doesn't like them if she doesn't have a certain, very specific rapport with them at first meeting. With a guy that attitude would be considered completely normal and even cute.

31 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I do think Don was fulfilling an "ideal" in his relationship with Faye as much as any of the other women. Faye was a tool for self-improvement or more accurately, finding equilibrium to Don. It's just different where Don didn't ever believe that The Magic of Faye and Their Connection would confer instant happiness and secureness on him- unlike Don and a lot of the other women. Rather, Don thought Faye's hard-ass insistence on a conventional dating relationship would be a good impetus for him to straighten out and IMO, he subconsciously reached out to her as a therapist even though he'd never consciously go see one. 

Yes, not virgin or whore, but Relationship or something else. But I think at tool for self-improvement is slightly different from what he sometimes looked for in women--like when he threw her over for Megan, Megan was the magic wand of self-improvement. Faye was another human being whose background and personality he saw as potentially good for him. But she required something from him. With Megan he could just like the person he felt like when he was with her.