Mad Men - General Discussion

[Simon Boccanegra]

Oh, no. "Enjoy the dancing beans" was only his parting line in that scene. We see him later in that episode giving Peggy her new hairstyle, and he was still around until the new agency was formed and some characters got left behind. 

[small potatoes]

Oh, no. "Enjoy the dancing beans" was only his parting line in that scene. We see him later in that episode giving Peggy her new hairstyle, and he was still around until the new agency was formed and some characters got left behind. 

 

Oh, good. I couldn't remember the exact sequence.

[Athena]

In the Don Draper topic @Only Daddy made the point that watching the show was akin to reading a book. This made me think a lot about the show as a whole.

 

Something I find fascinating and wonderful about this show is that it inspires a lot of analysis and discussion from here to other blogs. Tom and Lorenzo's Mad Style points are wonderful. What is it about Mad Men that inspires so much commentary? I think we've all had issues with the show. I don't know if I would say it's the best show in the world, but the sum of its parts does make it memorable for me. Why do we keep watching and analyzing? What makes it distinct from other TV shows? 

 

For me, I think the time capsule factor is one reason. I also think the characters do represent real people in that they are often complicated, messed up, and not black and white. I've been disgusted with and found Don attractive within the same season. There can be real subtleness to the show, but at the same time, it's incredibly over the top, strange, and funny.

 

What do you keep watching and talking about Mad Men? 

[small potatoes]

In the Don Draper topic @Only Daddy made the point that watching the show was akin to reading a book. This made me think a lot about the show as a whole.

 

I used to read books. Now I spend my spare time reading message board forums about Mad Men. It's kind of sad.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Dougal
Trimmed quote.

[oceanblue]

That Don had such a strong reaction to a woman forcing herself on him?  Yes, that makes sense that it's connected.

[Only Daddy]

In the Don Draper topic @Only Daddy made the point that watching the show was akin to reading a book. This made me think a lot about the show as a whole.

 

Something I find fascinating and wonderful about this show is that it inspires a lot of analysis and discussion from here to other blogs. Tom and Lorenzo's Mad Style points are wonderful. What is it about Mad Men that inspires so much commentary? I think we've all had issues with the show. I don't know if I would say it's the best show in the world, but the sum of its parts does make it memorable for me. Why do we keep watching and analyzing? What makes it distinct from other TV shows? 

 

For me, I think the time capsule factor is one reason. I also think the characters do represent real people in that they are often complicated, messed up, and not black and white. I've been disgusted with and found Don attractive within the same season. There can be real subtleness to the show, but at the same time, it's incredibly over the top, strange, and funny.

 

What do you keep watching and talking about Mad Men? 

 

My answer would be book length.  I won't mince words -- I think it's the best television drama of all time, hands down.  I'm not a big TV guy, didn't used to understand how people could sit there for an hour watching a show every week for years.

 

My wife loves it too (but has loved many shows over the years).  One time during an episode I turned to her and said "Is this what it is like for other people?  Does watching TV feel this enjoyable for other shows?"

[small potatoes]

My answer would be book length.  I won't mince words -- I think it's the best television drama of all time, hands down.  I'm not a big TV guy, didn't used to understand how people could sit there for an hour watching a show every week for years.

 

 

 

Who do you like to read?

 

For most of the seventies and eighties I didn't even own a TV. Cable changed all that. I've liked some other TV shows but none to the extent of Mad Men. You probably can't tell from my posting, but I'm a little bit obsessed with it.

 

Richard Yates is a writer often mentioned as an influence on Mad Men. I haven't read any of his novels but have read a few of his short stories. I particularly like the one called A Glutton for Punishment.

[Inquisitionist]

Richard Yates is a writer often mentioned as an influence on Mad Men. I haven't read any of his novels

 

I read Revolutionary Road last year.  Outstanding.

[Sweets McGee]

Richard Yates is a writer often mentioned as an influence on Mad Men.

 

Really. I have a bad habit of buying books at used book stores and then taking years to read them, and I have Disturbing the Peace by Yates on my shelf. Maybe I should add it to my to-do before 7B starts.

 

(Of course I just looked it up on wiki and see this: "Semi-autobiographical, the novel was dismissed by critics as his weakest book." I sure know how to pick 'em. Should probably pick up RR first.)

 

Edited August 7, 2014 by Sweets McGee

[oceanblue]

Loved Revolutionary Road.  The story makes me think of the phrase "most people lead lives of quiet desperation".  I loved John Updike a few decades ago, in particular a book called Marry Me.

[Simon Boccanegra]

 

One time during an episode I turned to her and said "Is this what it is like for other people?  Does watching TV feel this enjoyable for other shows?"

 

It does for the very best shows: this, The Wire (which is my "best-ever" show), The Sopranos, possibly The West Wing, I am sure Breaking Bad (I have not "done" that one yet, but I plan to), Lesser shows, one enjoys in a different way. TV has grown up a lot. Some of the classic comedies still have a lot of charm, and maybe we have had better periods in the past for comedy; but in my opinion, we have hit a new plateau for drama in recent decades, mostly thanks to cable but also to some envelope-pushing shows in the "late network" era. (Twin Peaks, uneven and full of missteps as it was, was an important series. So many people making TV now seem to have seen it when they were younger, including Weiner. It brought a cinematic texture to television.). I don't know if I ever would have wanted to discuss, in the offseason, the dramas of an earlier age that were quality work for their time. The internet was less of a factor, of course, but I don't know if I would have had as much to say in any case. 

 

Revolutionary Road is required or at least strongly suggested reading for Mad Men fans. I was disappointed in the Kate/Leo film version.  

Edited August 7, 2014 by Simon Boccanegra

[small potatoes]

I read Revolutionary Road last year.  Outstanding.

 

In part responding to news on another thread that Vince and Alexis were married back in June (and that one of our posters scooped the information), they had such magical chemistry in S5, the scenes with them together were magnificent.

 

I wasn't impressed with the movie. The idea just occurred to me for a remake with Vince and Alexis in the lead roles. Not that it'll ever happen but I think they'd be perfectly cast.

[small potatoes]

Not only did my parents have the chip and dip set, but they had the little green ceramic spoon! Weiner's mom must have lost or broken her spoon somewhere along the line. And my mom had the set of four mixing bowls Betty has (largest one is yellow, then green, red and the smallest is blue). 

 

You're talking about Pyrex bowls. We had a set of them when I was growing up. I visited friends in Wisconsin in 2009 during the break up of the Draper marriage. They have a booth at an antique store. On one of the shelves I spotted a set of Pyrex bowls for $50. I don't know whether that's a good price or not but I was happy to pay it. They shipped them to me without any breakage. Not that I'm a good cook or anything but those things are invaluable.

[Domestic Assassin]

Richard Yates is a writer often mentioned as an influence on Mad Men.

 

 

John Cheever was also a major influence on Mad Men.  He lived in Ossining, and set many of his stories there.  I believe Don and Betty lived on Bullet Park Road, named after one of Cheever's novels.  I devoured his stories in high school.  I think I'm going to read them again.

[halgia]

I devoured his stories in high school.  I think I'm going to read them again.

I've got a collection of his sitting on my bookshelf that I had no particular plans to return to, but that suddenly sounds like a really good idea....

[Inquisitionist]

Revolutionary Road is required or at least strongly suggested reading for Mad Men fans. I was disappointed in the Kate/Leo film version.

 

I had seen the movie first and found it intriguing.  It's a testament to Yates's writing, however, that the imagines of Kate and Leo left my mind within the first few pages of reading.  Frank and April became new characters in my mind, very separate from the movie portrayals.

[small potatoes]

John Cheever was also a major influence on Mad Men.  He lived in Ossining, and set many of his stories there.  I believe Don and Betty lived on Bullet Park Road, named after one of Cheever's novels.  I devoured his stories in high school.  I think I'm going to read them again.

 

I was talking to a friend recently about re-reading favorite authors. He said it was often disappointing, citing The Man Who Loved Children by Christina Stead and The Deptford Trilogy by Robertson Davies as books that he had loved on first read but couldn’t get into the second time around. 

 

I’m not much into re-reading books. I always want to move on to something else, some other author, or another book by the same author. I read the collected stories of John Cheever shortly after it came out and loved them. It’s a massive collection, though, and I stopped about two thirds of the way through. Ten or twenty years later, I picked up another copy. I had forgotten about reading them before until I was well into the volume and started having a sense of déjà vu. I enjoyed them the second time around as much as the first but damned if I didn’t stop again two thirds of the way through, maybe at the exact same spot. And now I can’t remember a single story off the top of my head.

 

This anecdote says more about my shabby memory than it does about Cheever. I think he’ll hold up real well to re-reading. I hope you enjoy it as much the second time around as you did the first. 

 

I think there’s yet another copy of the collection sitting in my basement. One of these days, maybe I’ll go back for thirds.

[small potatoes]

Really. I have a bad habit of buying books at used book stores and then taking years to read them, and I have Disturbing the Peace by Yates on my shelf. Maybe I should add it to my to-do before 7B starts.

 

 

I'm the same way about buying books. Revolutionary Road is his masterpiece but he's also a great short story writer. His Collected Stories came out in 2001 with an introduction by Richard Russo. Affordable copies seem to be fairly plentiful on ABE and Amazon. I love the one called A Glutton for Punishment.

[small potatoes]

Loved Revolutionary Road.  The story makes me think of the phrase "most people lead lives of quiet desperation".  I loved John Updike a few decades ago, in particular a book called Marry Me.

 

A new English teacher came to our high school my sophomore year in 1965 and immediately assigned Rabbit Run and The Centaur. They were the first two contemporary adult novels I'd read. At first it seemed like they were going to be tough sledding but I was pleasantly surprised to find that literature could be about two of my favorite subjects, sex and basketball.

[Simon Boccanegra]

I started to put this in the "5-G" thread, but then remembered the no-spoiler policy in the rewatch threads, and both my question and any answers would have had to be tagged, so...

 

Is the scene at the office re: the picture still the only one Elisabeth Moss and January Jones have shared in six and a half seasons? I know Peggy was not at the Derby party in "My Old Kentucky Home"; she was at the office getting high, and that was a rare instance of Betty seeing work people like Pete and Harry. 

 

I'd love to know what those two make of each other. (The characters, not the actors.) 

[Inquisitionist]

Peggy and Betty are in the same shot in The Beautiful Girls when Betty picks up Sally at SCDP, but it's very brief and Peggy doesn't speak.  I don't recall any other times the actresses shared a scene.

[Bawoman]

I think Betty said something along the lines of "I like her, she seems fresh" which I took as genuine, but the cynic in me also thinks she was relieved Peggy wasnt some femme fatale/bombshell that would steal her husband away.

 

Also worth noting is that Betty and Joan only shared one scene as well in Season 3 when Betty went to the office to later have dinner with Don, Lane and his wife., and they seemed to get along very well.

[small potatoes]

You would expect a bombshell like Joan to arouse some jealousy in a wife. Maybe Don told Betty about Roger early on and eliminated her suspicions.

[Bawoman]

Maybe Don told Betty about Roger early on and eliminated her suspicions.

 

 

I could very much see that happening, though its curious weve never really gotten a confirmation that Don knows about them. Bert hinted at it, and Stan and Peggy seemed to know or at least suspect it, but that's it.

[Geeni]

 

You would expect a bombshell like Joan to arouse some jealousy in a wife.

 

I don't know, pre-S5 Betty always seemed very confident in her own looks, and since she knows she is beautiful enough to attract male attention, I understand why she wouldn't be jealous of Joan.

[small potatoes]

Good point. I can't remember any incidents of focalized jealousy in the early years, other than moving in quickly to interrupt his chat with Helen Bishop and even that was prompted by one of her friends.

[JudyObscure]

This morning started the complete re-run of every episode. Good. I didn't like them skipping a few in the past build-ups to new seasons.

I always thrill a little bit to the opening shows -- Don coming home to Betty and two children after he had been acing single all day, Pete and Peggy outside her apartment door. Those two had enough chemistry to kick off, "Breaking Bad."

[oceanblue]

It's funny.  I love both actors, but I cannot figure out why Peggy slept with Pete.  He was an ass to her all day.  I don't feel the chemistry.  

[Geeni]

It's funny.  I love both actors, but I cannot figure out why Peggy slept with Pete.  He was an ass to her all day.  I don't feel the chemistry.  

 

While I agree, I always assumed it was because she was flattered by Pete's obvious attraction for her.

[JudyObscure]

Well, I guess I'm alone in this then. I'm probably projecting the heat because I find Pete the most physically attractive of all the Mad Men. Add that to Peggy standing there with her head wobbling the way it does and I thought she was fairly dizzy with desire.

[lilsketchy]

You're not alone in your view, JudyO. Serious chemistry.

[oceanblue]

I find Vincent Kartheiser very attractive.  Pete?  Not a bit.

[Sweets McGee]

I noticed this today when re-watching "The Mountain King."

 

Don tells Anna he'll take care of her, and she says, "You don't owe me anything."

Same in Waterloo between Don and Megan. "You don't owe me anything."

 

Was there a similar exchange between Don and Betty? I am thinking no.

[oceanblue]

Betty told her attorney that she wanted whatever she was entitled to.

[Geeni]

That reminds me of when both Betty and Megan asked him, in two separate episodes, "How could you do this to me?". Betty in A Night to Remember and Megan in Far Away Places.

 

Dick is really a dick to most of the women he's been romantically involved with, isn't he?

Edited December 3, 2014 by Geeni

[Geeni]

From the Media thread:

 

 

I could easily be wrong, but I really didn't interpret what he said that way.  I think he just meant that he isn't going to be spending a lot of time on people like Cutler or Dawn or Stan, and each episode feeling like a finale is just typical Weiner exaggeration.  I can't imagine that he's going to change the format of the show that radically.

 

While that is possible, it's already the format of the show though. Most of the episodes have a lot of focus on one character and a little less or even equal focus on others. And then at times, the two stories end up tying together at the end anyway.

[Sweets McGee]

From the Betty thread:

 

They say the country lost it's innocence when JFK was killed. Shortly after, when Betty left Don, i guess Mad Men lost something too. Innocence certianly doesn't seem to apply. But something........

 

Everyone's got their opinions and there are a lot of differing ones when it comes to this show, as to which seasons are better, etc. I will say that I appreciate how the show uses the JFK assassination as a turning point in not just history/the country, but in the characters lives, both at home and at the office, to the point where it almost feels like we're watching a different show from S4 onward, and that's not a bad thing at all, in my opinion. I personally love the later seasons. But I was born in the 70s so I don't have any personal connection to the era.

[chlban]

In the Don Draper topic @Only Daddy made the point that watching the show was akin to reading a book. This made me think a lot about the show as a whole.

 

Something I find fascinating and wonderful about this show is that it inspires a lot of analysis and discussion from here to other blogs. Tom and Lorenzo's Mad Style points are wonderful. What is it about Mad Men that inspires so much commentary? I think we've all had issues with the show. I don't know if I would say it's the best show in the world, but the sum of its parts does make it memorable for me. Why do we keep watching and analyzing? What makes it distinct from other TV shows? 

 

For me, I think the time capsule factor is one reason. I also think the characters do represent real people in that they are often complicated, messed up, and not black and white. I've been disgusted with and found Don attractive within the same season. There can be real subtleness to the show, but at the same time, it's incredibly over the top, strange, and funny.

 

What do you keep watching and talking about Mad Men? 

Yes to all of these reasons. For me, I do think the era is a huge piece of it. I grew up in the 60's  so much of what they cover peripherally in show, Vietnam, the Civli rights movement, the womens movement, are sort of the soundtrack of my life. I watched those same newscasts. I remember distinctly the JFK assasination, as well as those of MLK and Bobby 5 years later.  I also vividly remember watching the Democratic National convention in  Chicago in 1968. which may be well have been the foundation of my life long distrust of the police in spite of never having had a single run in with Law Enforcement in my entire white bread, boring life. But I digress.

 

I think it is that combination of nostalgia for my childhood and early teen years, combined with the compelling characters and storytelling. I do watch television, but I am also a dedicated reader. Generally I have a book nearby even when TV watching but I can honestly say the Mad Men was the first show that I will sit down to watch without a book, phone, tablet or any other distractions. I sit down to watch and I am always sad when the hour is up.

 

I'm pretty sure I'll be in mourning at the end of the series. For me personally it is the best Drama series ever. Flaws and all and as much as I have come to detest Jessica Pare it is a testament to the rest of the cast and the writing that I can still say that.

[Azaelia]

chlban: Interesting perspective! I've actually come across people who grew up around the same time who didn't like the show for those reasons, heh. But it does seem to give a more realistic image of the 60's than a lot of other media. Although of course everyone's outlook and experiences will have been different. Mad Men's closer to how my baby boomer parents and their parents would've experienced the sixties, yet at the same time, they weren't rich WASPs either.

 

Which I think makes the show interesting for people in my generation to watch - it's really a look at what it what the times were like for much of America, because most people weren't out there protesting the war, but rather, just trying to live their lives - if still impacted by the world, whether on a smaller or larger scale. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by Azaelia

[Pogojoco]

I started my dad watching from the beginning last night and we watched the first few episodes last night. My dad said re. Don "He's like Dick Van Dyke, but just wrong....." which I think is pretty apt. 

[small potatoes]

It's great you can watch Mad Men with your dad.

 

I've often thought about Mad Men in relation to The Dick Van Dyke show. Rob and Don are both part of a writing team creating a product of debatable value. Does this ad work? Is this sketch funny? It's can be difficult to form a consensus. They do their best and then Alan or the client might not like it and even if they do, the ad or the sketch might not resonate with the audience.

 

After Don and Megan moved to Manhattan, I kept waiting for Don to trip over a footstool in the new apartment.

[Geeni]

From the media thread:

 

 

Oh, FFS. I was following the reaction to the show after "Tomorrowland" and all through S5. That wasn't a strong sentiment anywhere I was reading. I don't know where he's getting that. In fact, a lot of people thought Betty was much better off with Henry. I feel it bothers MW a lot that he hasn't been able to close the sale with Megan.

 

I'm wondering whether it was more Megan the character that people were upset about, or the fact that Don was getting suddenly married. If Faye had been the one Don had proposed to, would the audience have been more receptive? I mean, we knew more about her than Megan, who by that point had been only the secretary that comforted Sally and also seduced Don.

[Dejana]

From the media thread:

 

 

I'm wondering whether it was more Megan the character that people were upset about, or the fact that Don was getting suddenly married. If Faye had been the one Don had proposed to, would the audience have been more receptive? I mean, we knew more about her than Megan, who by that point had been only the secretary that comforted Sally and also seduced Don.

 

If Don had proposed to Faye in "Tomorrowland", it's hard for me to picture her saying yes, and it being consistent with the character presented throughout S4. I don't know if the objections from fans would have been quite so vehement, because she still would have been a very different sort of wife than Don would have had before (not so young and starry eyed and blind to his faults, initially). She was presented as someone with a professional place in the SCDP universe ahead of becoming involved with Don, as opposed to Megan the sunny secretary's "I dabble in modeling and art and acting but I really love advertising hey can I sit in your lap?" spiel, which could be viewed as calculated by the less charitable viewer. Even if you thought she was sincere, after the Allison debacle, how many fans were thrilled to see Don sleeping with yet another secretary in the same season? Faye, I didn't care for, but the character was better/more consistently drawn and not just whomever Weiner needed/wanted her to be on any given week.

 

As I've said many times, I've never had a problem with the idea of Don marrying the wrong woman too soon, because how likely was it that he'd turn the corner and be on the right path of getting his act together for good, in S4? It's just that the execution with Megan IMO was pretty poor. Weiner kept trying to dazzle fans with Megan, but in stories that were probably never going to go over well. In watching MM, people didn't sign up for the travails of an aspiring actress/soap star, so it was pretty likely that only so many fans were going to be able to roll with it. Before that, to have her being a whiz at advertising, saving accounts at the last minute, with Peggy singing her praises as someone who was good at everything, with every man going about on her beauty...it's hard enough to present a character like that the first year of a story without inducing eye rolls, but in season five, when viewers have had the chance to get much more attached to the characters who've been around a lot longer, what did he expect? Weiner pretty much followed the textbook guide in How to Create An Interloper without realizing it.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Dejana

[txhorns79]

I'm wondering whether it was more Megan the character that people were upset about, or the fact that Don was getting suddenly married. If Faye had been the one Don had proposed to, would the audience have been more receptive? I mean, we knew more about her than Megan, who by that point had been only the secretary that comforted Sally and also seduced Don.

 

I think Megan as a character was very different from what audience members may have been used to.  Prior to her, Don had a personal life and a professional life, which did not really mix.  For example, you would rarely, if ever, see Betty in an office scene and she only sometimes interacted with people like Roger.  With Megan, she was there at the office and there at home.  She was a very visible presence.  If you didn't like the character to begin with, then you were not going to be happy, and obviously, there are some who very vocally dislike that particular character.  

 

I honestly don't think Don ever could have proposed to Faye.  You could see him drifting from her the moment she saw him at his most vulnerable.  Also, he would never have taken her suggestion that he start figuring out how to come clean, in all senses, about Don Draper.     

Edited March 29, 2015 by txhorns79

[duVerre]

 

 

Don's penthouse bedroom there's a metallic wall hanging behind the bed that's in the form of a bough or several boughs - leaves, branches, etc.

I've noticed a more anemic version of this hanging in Joan's apartment. Just smaller and more sparse. But then recently I saw a screen cap of Betty sitting on her old couch, watching television with Glen, and I'd swear the curved metalic branch/leaves hanging above that couch is the same one as in Joan's apartment. Mad Men seems so meticulous I can't imagine them recycling, but that's what it looks like to me.

 

Believe me, that metallic branch was everywhere. It was in my living room growing up, in my girlfriend's living room, and in the principal's office at my school. They may not have matched precisely, and they came in all price ranges, and the impact was the same. Somebody could have taken the one from my principal's office and put it above my parents' couch and switched my parents' branch into the principal's office. No one would have noticed or cared. 

 

It's very odd to me that they're selling vintage ones at flea markets now, and new ones in a furniture store around the corner from me. 

[duVerre]

 

Weiner kept trying to dazzle fans with Megan, but in stories that were probably never going to go over well. In watching MM, people didn't sign up for the travails of an aspiring actress/soap star, so it was pretty likely that only so many fans were going to be able to roll with it. Before that, to have her being a whiz at advertising, saving accounts at the last minute, with Peggy singing her praises as someone who was good at everything, with every man going about her beauty...it's hard enough to present a character like that the first year of a story without inducing eye rolls, but in season five, when viewers have had the chance to get much more attached to the characters who've been around a lot longer, what did he expect? Weiner pretty much followed the textbook guide in How to Create An Interloper without realizing it.

 

Amen. I've just spent twenty minutes trying to express my feelings about Megan, and I'm failing. All I can say is (1) It was as though Wiener was suddenly trying to combine MM with "That Girl," and (2) what you've written here is perfect.

[LADreamr]

I don't have any particular feelings about Megan, but I don't feel any attachment to her. I feel pretty disconnected from Betty too, though. And I wouldn't care about that, except that I've never seen Don seem all that attached to her, either. It seemed like he was in a rare happy place in California, and attributed that feeling to being with her, when I think that was more circumstantial. Then he went back to his normal life and discovered he still wasn't happy and that nothing had changed except that now there was a new marriage to feel suffocated by. And Megan didn't know him well enough to know that's what she was dealing with.

[Bawoman]

Don and Betty will always be my favorite couple on the show, but I had absolutely no problem in them separating, nor would I ever wish they got back together (I wouldn't hate it, but it's not something I really wish for). I like her marriage with Henry and for the most part I think she more than traded up. No matter how I may have liked Don and Betty, I know they would be less miserable apart (especially Betty)
I would have objected to Don marrying anyone when he choose to marry Megan. I don't think any marriage of his would have worked out at that point, and it surprised me that some people thought it could have, It didn't help that I thought Megan was a flimsy, boring, shallow character, but then again I thought Faye was too needy and high maintance (if somewhat more interesting a character by her own right) for Don.

[Simon Boccanegra]

Huh. I never noticed that Don's line to Ted in "For Immediate Release" (floating the merger idea), "Hey, Lieutenant. Want to get into some trouble?" is a word-for-word quotation of the affianced soldier to Don in Hawaii ("The Doorway"). Even the framing is the same, with two guys at a nearly empty bar, sitting in the same positions. I'm not the first to notice this, of course; Google turned it up in some think pieces. Still. You can pick things up at marathon time that got by you with seven-day waits between. 

[LADreamr]

Yeah, I picked something up in the marathon this morning that I think I missed before: Betty saying to Don, about Megan, "Poor girl, she doesn't know that loving you is the worst way to get to you." That sums up so many things about him. I'm going to miss the writing of this show so much.