Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[TyranAmiros]

It's been a while since I watched any of Season 3 and I don't plan on rewatching. I remember a lot of discussion about Oliver's choices regarding  the man vs the Arrow related to Felicity's decision. I thought some of it related to the way Oliver went so cold and detached and nihilistic, but I may be misremembering. 

[bijoux]

On 26.05.2016. at 7:30 AM, kismet said:

The big finale fight, literally felt like a redux of Brick's big battle in the middle of s3. The only difference was OQ was present at this one. I know there are only so many ways to punch & shoot people. But there has to be something new that you can introduce. I was bored by the shooting at the beginning. And the hand to hand combat, although well-shot & better acted than in the middle of the season. It was still the same old, same old.

The most gratifying stunt to me was Oliver taking down two Ghosts simultanously using his bow and arrows. I really love him in awesome archer mode in the field.

On 28.05.2016. at 10:16 PM, apinknightmare said:

The ARGUS agent who took the idol away - Mina Fayad - was the lady working for HIVE that Darhk offed earlier in the season. Her name was on her uniform in the last scene of the flashbacks. 

http://youtu.be/mu4hCdzUSws

Whoa. That's an excellent catch. They should have focused on her more since she connects the damn flashbacks to the present.

14 hours ago, TyranAmiros said:

It's been a while since I watched any of Season 3 and I don't plan on rewatching. I remember a lot of discussion about Oliver's choices regarding  the man vs the Arrow related to Felicity's decision. I thought some of it related to the way Oliver went so cold and detached and nihilistic, but I may be misremembering. 

That was all on Oliver's end. Felicity even told him that they were not together, but that was his decision. She never wanted Oliver to chose between himself and the Arrow, she just followed him at the end of last season when he decided he couldn't be the Arrow anymore.

[kismet]

As someone who watched s3 live and binged s3 later, I can safely say it doesn't get better the second time around. I will say it makes clearer what you loved about the season (420, TQ's reaction to OQ being the Arrow, Lil Sara) and what you hated (RP, SL's death, BC arc, Ras going from Villain to ridiculous villain carciature under an evil lovespell). That being said, know how it ended or knowing that you could FFwd through the offensive parts made it easier to watch. There was also less time to stew about how bad things had become.

As for finales, I think s2>s1>s4>s3. Which for me is how the seasons ranks as well. I think s2 was the best because it had amazingly good balance between good stuff like OTA & relationships in general, comics stuff like SL/Canary & Mirakuru and most importantly Arrow world & SC Life. It had good characters, good plots and some amazing twists. S1 was phenomanal because it revolved around a mystery and could the Hood become a Hero. It was tight & captivating storytelling. S4 was only slightly better than s3 because it didn't try to force a whole other story on us like Palmer island.The villian kept his motivation throughout. It was a really basic motivation, but at least it was motivation. Ras went from being a weary man to a lovesick obsessed man-child. Both s3 & s4 had their stupid plot for plot contrivances. However, s4 was better in the sense that there were at least some emotional beats to the stories. I will also say that I found the actors elevated the material in s4, when the writers failed the story. Whereas in s3, there was little the actors could do to elevate that material, since every week things changed for plot!.

All in all, for all of my criticism of the writing on s4 of Arrow, I will still willingly rewatch it. The acting was strong and I still love the characters. And I think upon rewatch, I will be able to gloss over some of the more irritating episodes or just willingly avoid that disc that includes those ones in the middle. Whereas s3, was pretty rough on the characters, and at the end of the day I primarily watch shows for the characters first and then the story. .

[Starfish35]

I agree that binge watching makes it easier to ignore issues, particularly if you're watching several seasons back to back.  I know personally there's been several shows that I binged, and then it always seemed like they took a sudden drop in quality about the time I caught up to real time airing.  Quite a coincidence.  Lol. 

Confession time - I haven't actually gotten around to watching the last three episodes yet.  I know what happens because I've been reading the episode threads.  I just haven't gotten up the motivation to watch them.  So I can't rank S4's finale yet.  

Of the other three, though, season one is definitely my favorite.  I still think, while there were some issues with season one (namely Laurel), that it was the best written and plotted of all the seasons.  They clearly had a plan from beginning to end, and no other season yet has come close to matching how well it all played out.   And there were two shocks for me in the finale that really got me hooked.  One was Tommy's death - I had not seen that coming, since I thought that him becoming Oliver's enemy was as inevitable as Lauriver (at that point).  And then that the second earthquake machine went off.  So yeah, definitely season one was my favorite finale.

Season two is my least favorite, because of Sara going back to the League and the whole jacket-passing scene.  I was absolutely livid over that, because the implications for Sara and for Laurel were clear, and I hated all of it.  For a couple of months I wasn't even going to watch season three, but then the spoilers from SDCC started coming in, and I started getting sucked back in. :(

The season three finale....honestly I'm just kind of meh about it.  "This is Your Sword" did me in on a lot of levels, and if I hadn't known Sara was coming back in season four, I don't know if I would have kept going.  So by the time the finale aired, I was just thankful it was over.

This season.....I don't know.  I'm just becoming more and more apathetic about this show.  I feel oddly guilty about that somehow.  Here I finally got what I wanted for years, Laurel off the show, and now I'm losing interest?  I don't even know right now.   I'm frustrated that Malcolm's still on the show, and as long as he is, I don't think I have any hope for any kind of satisfying storylines for Thea, and I can't even begin to think what I want for the other three right now.  I guess I'm just burned out at the moment.  

[Chaser]

Someone else said that 4x18 was like their season finale. I kind of feel the same way. I was much more interested in who was in the grave then I was in how DD would be taken down. I enjoyed moments of the episodes that followed and it gave me a decent taste of how the show could be again but I felt the season was over before it actually was. I didn't care to watch the LL worshiping. I was pissed we were getting another round of Thea and Malcolm. I was annoyed Felicity wasn't going to get to respond to Havenrock. I was frustrated with the lack of Olicity. I was bored with Oliver's 'crisis' and DD and his magic. I was already done with the season by the time the finale came around. 

I'm not done with the show and I"m looking forward to how the show is going to go forward with Laurel (a part of me feels like its going to be like starting a new show altogether), but I'm really tired of them dropping the ball in the third act.

I was rewatching 4x06 and 4x11 Olicity moments and its really hard to figure out how the show could go from that to the finale. I'm okay with Oliver and Felicity not being back together by the finale but the Olicity at the end of the season was really hard to recognize. Their arc feels incredible unfinished. I realize they laid the groundwork for a reunion in S5 but it made S4 look rather sloppy. Related to that, I hated that they handled the aftermath of 4x15. The weak parallel of Olicity to Donna/Noah made it seem like Felicity had a lesson to learn not Oliver. Felicity learned the whole trust relationship thing in 4x06. Oliver broke that trust, he lied while she was giving 100%. It was so frustrating to watch. I honestly don't understand why they gave them such strong moments and actually had them get engaged, for them to end the season in such a weak way. I know it has been said before, but I honestly feel that once they got the okay to kill Laurel they felt comfortable delaying any Olicity development to S5. So they just kind of dropped it.

Speaking of Laurel, it just occurred to me that the decline in ratings goes along with the Oliver and Laurel ratings trend. Olicity break up. Felicity leaves the Team. Oliver and Laurel gets lots of moments. Ratings decline. Laurel dies. Ratings go up. Next episode is a love letter to Laurel. Ratings go down. If you are a casual viewer, it wouldn't surprise me if people thought Felicity was being written and Oliver and Laurel were getting back together.

Moving on.

I'm really bitter that Thea and Felicity were never allowed to finish their story lines. Thea had the bloodlust that went no where. She got drugged again. She never got her personal life explored. She was still tied to Malcolm. Felicity got one episode to get over being paralyzed. She was never allowed to talk about her side of the break up. Instead of dealing with Havenrock, she got to be schooled about her 'failure' in the Olicity relationship. 

[Password]

28 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I was rewatching 4x06 and 4x11 Olicity moments and its really hard to figure out how the show could go from that to the finale. I'm okay with Oliver and Felicity not being back together by the finale but the Olicity at the end of the season was really hard to recognize. Their arc feels incredible unfinished. I realize they laid the groundwork for a reunion in S5

Speaking of Laurel, it just occurred to me that the decline in ratings goes along with the Oliver and Laurel ratings trend. Olicity break up. Felicity leaves the Team. Oliver and Laurel gets lots of moments. Ratings decline. Laurel dies. Ratings go up. Next episode is a love letter to Laurel. Ratings go down. If you are a casual viewer, it wouldn't surprise me if people thought Felicity was being written and Oliver and Laurel were getting back together.

I'm really bitter that... Felicity never allowed to finish (her) story lines. Felicity got one episode to get over being paralyzed. She was never allowed to talk about her side of the break up. Instead of dealing with Havenrock, she got to be schooled about her 'failure' in the Olicity relationship. 

As much as I think Oliver and Felicity were really only allowed the ending they got because the world was ending blah blah blah, it felt incredibly unfinished for their arc. Yes, it laid the groundwork for S5, but frankly I don't think I'm going to see what I need to see from their relationship development because that's what the writers do. All of the development happens in between hiatus' and that's not good enough for me. I really need to see Oliver letting her in more and not keeping secrets (which HE WAS DOING UNTIL THE BABY MAMA IDIOCY). And I need to see her trusting him into her heart again.

But I'm most bitter about Felicity's story line this year. Frankly, considering all the horrible things that happened to Felicity this year, her going away to have a break would've been completely understandable. She had no ties to Oliver (besides GA stuff), the big bad was defeated, Palmer Tech didn't care about her anymore, she got some answers about her dad "leaving". Havenrock, paralysis, BABY MAMA DRAMA! The list goes on and on but we weren't allowed to see her react to most of those things other than the short 1 episode arc of not thinking she can do Arrow work anymore. I love that Diggle got his arc this year, it was long awaited, but Felicity deserved a lot better than what the writers ended up giving her. It's ok to be unfinished in the wider concept of the show, but it needed to be finished for the season 4 arc. A story within a story but that just didn't happen.

I've given up on Thea's story because Malcolm is still alive. When he's dead hit me up.

[Morrigan2575]

This isn't really bitterness but, it's talking about S4 Arrow which i think goes here.  I'm bored so i thought I'd take stock of what S4 Spoiler Spec I got right and what I got wrong.

Correct spec:

Flashbacks would be on the Island; Poppy would be Taiana from Year One (before we got her name); Oliver would end up as Mayor (I think everyone got that one); Felicity wouldn't be permanently paralyzed; Felicity would walk by end of Feb Sweeps (half point, see below) Laurel would die (half point for this one, since I said Laurel or Lance);  Taiana would 100% be dead by end of S4; Olicity would not get back together by end of S4; Felicity would not leave town or be kidnapped by end of S4; Diggle would leave town (didn't call Thea or Lance)

Wrong Spec:

Felicity wouldn't quit the team; Felicity's codename, Length of Felicity's paralysis (said 2-3 episodes and it was 5); Malcom dying (pissed about that); Oliver having a relationship with Baby Mama after Olicity break up (glad I got this one wrong); Oliver not sending the kid away (glad I got this one wrong).

Not a bad record, as good as my S2 Spec. S3 I was just horribly wrong about everything.  Glad I seemed to get my mojo back with S4

[bijoux]

I don't know about all my specs, but I called Oliver killing Poppy months ago and I will forever be proud of that. 

[Chaser]

There is a post somewhere of me calling Laurel's death, the episode and the reason. I'm pretty proud of that one.

14 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

This isn't really bitterness but, it's talking about S4 Arrow which i think goes here.  I'm bored so i thought I'd take stock of what S4 Spoiler Spec I got right and what I got wrong.

Correct spec:

Flashbacks would be on the Island; Poppy would be Taiana from Year One (before we got her name); Oliver would end up as Mayor (I think everyone got that one); Felicity wouldn't be permanently paralyzed; Felicity would walk by end of Feb Sweeps (half point, see below) Laurel would die (half point for this one, since I said Laurel or Lance);  Taiana would 100% be dead by end of S4; Olicity would not get back together by end of S4; Felicity would not leave town or be kidnapped by end of S4; Diggle would leave town (didn't call Thea or Lance)

Wrong Spec:

Felicity wouldn't quit the team; Felicity's codename, Length of Felicity's paralysis (said 2-3 episodes and it was 5); Malcom dying (pissed about that); Oliver having a relationship with Baby Mama after Olicity break up (glad I got this one wrong); Oliver not sending the kid away (glad I got this one wrong).

Not a bad record, as good as my S2 Spec. S3 I was just horribly wrong about everything.  Glad I seemed to get my mojo back with S4

If it makes you feel better, the EPs were horribly wrong about S3 too.

[Starfish35]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

If it makes you feel better, the EPs were horribly wrong about S3 too.

Lol. :)

Morrigan2575, I don't remember all our guesses from S3 of course, but it seems like I remember you calling Thea being Sara's killer.  

[Morrigan2575]

30 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Lol. :)

Morrigan2575, I don't remember all our guesses from S3 of course, but it seems like I remember you calling Thea being Sara's killer.  

Nah, I didn't call that but i argued in favor of it after that Reddit post "spoiled" it. of course I said Thea did it to pretect MM or Oliver and not because she was brainwashed. Oh how wrong i was.

i also argued 100% no way would they ever force Nyssa and Oliver to marry they couldn't be THAT stupid. *shakes head*

[Starfish35]

Oh that must be what I'm remembering.  I'd forgotten the Reddit "spoiler".

In fairness, I think there was a lot of "no, surely they wouldn't actually go there" last year, in regard to things like Nyssa and Oliver's marriage, Laurel pretending to be Sara to fool her father, Malcolm drugging Thea, etc.  

Edited May 31, 2016 by Starfish35

[looptab]

I don't remember the Reddit spoiler either :$

My specs are all so completely wrong it's not even funny :( I might have guessed minor things here and there - maybe the 'surprising person Laurel was going to embrace'.

We all got wrong whi was going to back Oliver's lying with the BMD. We thought Lance or Donna, instead it was freaking Thea Guggenheim. That made her lose several cupcake points -.-

[Starfish35]

Thea Guggenheim.  I love it. :)

[kismet]

I think overall this forum is really great with nailing down accurate predictions. And generally when we get it wrong, its because the show usually got it wrong. If they listened to us, they would save themselves from a lot of bad plotlines and choices. So we are really just looking out for the better of the show.

[tv echo]

So I just read another S4 review that slammed Arrow for turning a superhero show into a "soap opera" and that blamed fan service and the fact that the show is on The CW with its "target audience" of teen girls (he must have missed Pedowitz's memo).  Putting aside the fact that superhero comic books are soap operas (as admitted by the Arrow creators*) and his incorrect use of the term "fan service," this so-called critic didn't explain how The Flash is also on The CW and yet somehow managed to escape this soap opera 'taint'.

For my blood pressure, from now on, I'm going to look at the reviewer's "credentials" before even reading the article.  FYI, the writer of this review called himself a "TV Editor" but was just a university student and the site was his university's student newspaper.

* ETA:
Marc Guggenheim: "I would say, in all honesty, in many ways, there’s always been an element of soap opera that runs through all comic books... In many respects, I think comic books have almost taken their cue from soap operas and television dramas."

Andrew Kreisberg (referring to Greg Berlanti's first time crying over a comic book when Barry died in Crisis): "It was the first time he realized that comic books were basically just soap operas for boys." 

Gizmodo: "Adapting a comic is completely different from adapting a book. A book is (usually) its own self-contained story and, unless it's George RR Martin length, it's relatively simple to adapt the pages onto the silver screen. Thanks to their serialised nature, it's not quite so easy to do that with comics. Sure you can adapt individual story arcs, but comics never really end....  Ongoing series are the soap operas of the literary world. Characters may come and go, but the stories just keep coming. But as amazing as a daily superhero soap sounds, it probably wouldn't work. The next best thing would be an ongoing TV series." 

ETA: I just posted a bunch of other quotes comparing comic books to soap operas on page 141 of the Small Talk thread.

Edited June 3, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

We can probably start a list of publications that are actually "pro" [which means the industry in general might also be reading them], and what publications are more on the vanity project side, even if they get access to creatives/talent.

[tv echo]

Upon further reflection, I don't want to to generalize when it comes to professional media reviews versus fan/amateur reviews. I've read articles of both types that were poorly written, contained factual errors and/or made claims without anything to back them up.  I've also read articles of both types that were well-written, well-reasoned and well-supported. I guess the bottom line is whether the writer just throws terms around, or whether he or she bothers to do the research.

Edited June 2, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I've got to stop reading internet articles.  I just read one that claimed that Arrow started going downhill as soon as Felicity began being viewed as a legitimate love interest for Oliver (yes, that's the reason stated). It recommended that S5 would be improved if her role were greatly reduced or cut altogether.

[apinknightmare]

Arrow's problems began with having Malcolm drug Thea To murder Sara to keep him relevant to the plot. And they keep doing the same dumb sh*t over and over. 

[dtissagirl]

I love how that completely ignores that we learned Oliver procreated while cheating on Laurel BEFORE Felicity was made into the de-facto love interest. If Laurel had worked out as the LI, they would have still blown L/O to pieces with the baby mama and the demon spawn.

[kismet]

The whole entire set-up of BMD and execution was designed around L/O style relationship. That is one of the reasons it crashed so hard with O/F because it completely did not fit their dynamic. Hopefully it is the last of the L/O designed landmines they have buried in their 5/6 year plan. No relationship was going to survive BMD for s4 because of plot necessities. The only difference is at least with O/F, I believe they have a chance to repair it and actively work towards making it work. I think they will actually come out of it better people and a stronger couple. If it was still O/L it just would have been another notch lower of the Pathetic Barometer. IMO would have made me question LL for ever wanting to return to him, likewise why OQ would ever think that LL was a good fit for him.

In the end, I'm bitter they ever had to introduce the BMD, especially how they decided to use it - but at least I'm actively still rooting for O/F to reconcile. It only lessened my opinion of the writers and not the characters.

[tarotx]

I think Arrow's problem started when they killed Moira instead of the the women Slade thought Oliver loved-Laurel. Slade finding out that Oliver didn't love Laurel, when he spent years dreaming about this scenario would have made him go even more insane that he would have then went after Sara just to find out it was Felicity who Oliver loved. This even makes an already great s2 better. And we won't even talk about how the show often limits natural character interaction to shoehorn a character that should have been killed off season 2. Laurel being killed because of Oliver even fixes Lance's anger at Oliver. Sara running back to the LOA fits better if she feels she has no where else to go with Laurel being dead. 

Moria gave the show and Oliver such a different dynamic. Malcolm didn't need to be the one to have Sara killed to stay relevate. The Moira/Macolm dynamic would have worked better than what we got. And Thea a mess because her mom is Moira and her dad is Malcolm works better with then their fighting over her with Oliver beign the most sane of the adults shaping her. So much Potential. 

Even the horrible Oliver/Baby mama drama works best with Moira being there since she's the one that conviced BM to lie to Oliver. And Oliver keeping finding out about the child a secret works better if BM is afraid of Moira instead of Felicity. 

And Felicity and Moria interaction would be a dream come true :( And Felicity giving Oliver Moira's ring back has such a powerful image behind it-if Felicity feels it's Oliver's relationship and histroy with Moira that has compromised his ability to be a good partner :( So much potential. 

I know a lot of other things would have changed with out Moira's death so to compare what the show did without her to with her using the same narrative isn't exactly helpful but I can't help but what if..

I do think Felicity and Oliver not being in a relationship season 3 and half of season 4 but having so much angst isn't fun and it goes against their dynamic. But also we rarely go inside Felicity's mind so she's always there in the angst but it's not about her. That's never good for a character's likability or growth. If EBR wan't so good about showing Felicity's mind through her expressions and body langage, Felicity does have the potential to feel like a sounding board to get other characters to the point in the plot they want them. If you are prone to not have interest in Felicity and only get the other character beats, then you don't understand that Felicity wants to belong and have partners who share themselves with her. Even with Felicity's parents its kind of about their emotions and their decisions about her instead of about her own mindset. While I like her and EBR, even I believe Felicity is often front and center but more as a get other characters to a plot point and/or emotional beat instead of there to be her own character.

[kismet]

@tarotx now I'm just sad and bitter again that they chose to kill off Moira. I really do think when we look back at the show as a whole that will be perceived as a major misstep for the show. I know it pushed OQ's journey and it got the appropriate emotional response and shock from the audience. But in the end it was short-sighted gain, with long-term detriments the show has yet to recover from. Looking back there was little gained from MQ's death besides those few weeks of sorrow and a whole lot of regret.

I don't think they needed to kill LL in s2. I also think they were contractually unable to. But regardless, I think they could have sacrificed either TQ or SL instead. It could have been TQ, if it needed to be a Queen. I don't think the show would still be feeling her loss. But SL could have worked to spur LL's desire to avenge her sister in s3, as well as given her a whole summer to "train". It also would have made more sense that Slade would have killed SL since it would have been logical that in avenging Shado, he would choose the one that was chosen over her. Plus they still could have resurrected her by the Pit in s4. Imagine the shock on people's faces if SL had shown up in s4 with bloodlust or memory lapses and then been sent on her journey to save the world.

[dtissagirl]

I don't think they ever conceived the baby mama drama as something that would give Oliver and MOIRA any kind of conflict, because they came up with it at the same time they killed her. It was always gonna be a story beat to cockblock Oliver's love life.

Edited June 4, 2016 by dtissagirl

[tarotx]

Just now, dtissagirl said:

I don't think they ever conceived the baby mama drama as something that would give Oliver and MOIRA any kind of conflict, because they came up with it at the same time they killed her. It was always gonna be a story beat to cockblock Oliver's love life.

 

Oh I know. I think they wanted to put a future Connor on the Table and play up Moria will do anything for her kids. I just think it would have worked so much better as a Moira/Oliver conflict. And if people really believe they decided last minute to Kill Laurel this season (she was always a big option as the death imo) I can pretend that Laurel was always a death option season 2. I think they just didn't get permission season 2 :p  Maybe because Sara didn't appease the comic Black Canary fans. I just think Sara going back to the LOA and her family happy she is going off to the LOA doesn't make a lot sense in Sara's s2 story. Laurel's death fits everything better imo. Just not Dinah's comic destiny. 

[TimetravellingBW]

14 hours ago, kismet said:

@tarotx now I'm just sad and bitter again that they chose to kill off Moira. I really do think when we look back at the show as a whole that will be perceived as a major misstep for the show. I know it pushed OQ's journey and it got the appropriate emotional response and shock from the audience. But in the end it was short-sighted gain, with long-term detriments the show has yet to recover from. Looking back there was little gained from MQ's death besides those few weeks of sorrow and a whole lot of regret.

I'll forever be sad and bitter about Moira. Her death permanently changed Arrow for the worse. The show lost the shady/underside dealings of Starling and became Masks 24/7 and the writers lost a morally grey character they could play around with. Diggle, Felicity, and even Oliver himself are great characters but they're unabashedly heroic so there aren't as many directions to take them in. Moira was a wild card in that she was never truly heroic or good, and there was so much potential there. (Imo the writers had a good opportunity to have Thea or preferably Laurel take that morally ambiguous and/or evil position but they squandered it.) Killing Moira was so incredibly short-sighted and it's odd more reviewers don't pick up on that as a reason the show has suffered.

14 hours ago, tarotx said:

I think Arrow's problem started when they killed Moira instead of the the women Slade thought Oliver loved-Laurel. Slade finding out that Oliver didn't love Laurel, when he spent years dreaming about this scenario would have made him go even more insane that he would have then went after Sara just to find out it was Felicity who Oliver loved. This even makes an already great s2 better. And we won't even talk about how the show often limits natural character interaction to shoehorn a character that should have been killed off season 2. Laurel being killed because of Oliver even fixes Lance's anger at Oliver. Sara running back to the LOA fits better if she feels she has no where else to go with Laurel being dead. 

Ugh, I'm pleased Laurel was in the grave but also frustrated that they took so long to kill her off. LL barely contributed anything in her final two seasons: Her storylines only serviced herself and she didn't really impact other characters apart from Sara.  Even her own arcs nullified themselves: She was motivated by Sara's death and became the Black Canary --> Sara came back to life and Black Canary became pointless. May as well have got rid of her in S2, except there'd be more celebrating and less backlash

So if I could swap LL with a previous character who died, I'd pick Moira. Tommy's death - although tragic - worked with his character arc, was a genuine twist and propelled the show/Oliver forward in a way, no other deaths have. Plus, LL was still relevant in S2 because of Sara's return. But killing LL in Moira's place would work: Slade knew Oliver loved LL on the island, he could have killed her and then realized Sara was still out there, and decided to take down both Lance girls to hurt Oliver even more and the final stand off was a Sara/Felicity choice. Seriously imagine Lance's terror, when LL's already been killed and Slade takes Sara as well. And Sara and Oliver had been together so the Olicity ILY fake out would still be effective. Plus Sara returning to the LoA out of guilt for LL's death feels more organic. 

(I'd take Laurel dying in Sara's place in S3 as well, but the difference is Sara's death was in NO WAY necessary for the show. I kinda get having Slade kill someone to demonstrate how truly far gone he was and raise the stakes. But having a death at the beginning of S3 was ridiculous: They didn't need to hook people in and the "Who Killed Sara" mystery was terribly written. Plus Laurel dying in S2 removes the main reason to kill off Sara.)

13 hours ago, tarotx said:

And if people really believe they decided last minute to Kill Laurel this season (she was always a big option as the death imo) I can pretend that Laurel was always a death option season 2. I think they just didn't get permission season 2 :p  Maybe because Sara didn't appease the comic Black Canary fans. I just think Sara going back to the LOA and her family happy she is going off to the LOA doesn't make a lot sense in Sara's s2 story. Laurel's death fits everything better imo. Just not Dinah's comic destiny. 

I hate this argument that the writers only killed Laurel off at the last minute because they had to kill someone off and the grave plot wrote them into a corner. Uh, no. If the writers didn't want to kill off Laurel they wouldn't have done. They could have killed off a recurring character like Donna or Nyssa or Curtis, they could have killed off another main like Diggle or Quentin, they could have pulled a bait and switch and revealed the death was fake. They wanted to kill Laurel off and I suspect they've considered getting rid of her for a while but couldn't because [insert theory here] But the writers aren't exactly going to come out and say "oh yeah we've been sick of Laurel since S1, she was our only option for the grave." They're playing the "we're really sorry, we had to do it" card.

Honestly the probability that they considered killing LL before now, but genuinely couldn't, is the only thing that stops me being more annoyed she didn't die in Moira/Sara's place. 

Edited June 5, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[kismet]

I was just writing in the Hopes/Fears sections and I realized I'm bitter that the Flashbacks have become an afterthought for the show. I think the reason that the quality of the FB in the last 2 seasons has faltered is because no one is actually prioritizing how to write & cast the FB. That is the only explanation of how we got the s4 FB. Nothing about them showed any effort. Somebody found an old GA comic book and just lifted some of the plot because we need a FB arc. They went to casting and found a couple affordable actors who were available. If they actually put effort back into the FB, they might actually be good again. Otherwise, I'm bitter that I have to watch really crappy writing and really boring characters as mandatory commercials during the real show.

[dtissagirl]

The problem with the flashbacks is way worse than that -- it's structural, rather than situational. When they designed the show with embedded flashbacks, they seem to have not taken into account that present time Oliver was gonna be developed into a distance memory of pilot!Oliver as the seasons went on.

Or maybe it's because their plans for present time Oliver changed. I don't know. Maybe the original plan WAS pilot!Oliver sticking around for a few seasons. But they changed it. Because sometime mid-S1 they figured out taciturn robot vigilante wasn't a show anyone wanted to watch, and so they started slowly GETTING RID of pilot!Oliver. He was completely gone by mid-S2 in terms of headspace, motivation for vigilante-ing, relationships with present time people, etc. 201-209 legit buried the Hood.

But what we have now as a structure is flashback!Oliver nowhere near becoming pilot!Oliver... who hasn't even been around the show for years now. So even if they do brilliantly with the Bratva flashbacks, it's still a whole lot of story being written towards a character who doesn't exist anymore.

The way the flashbacks as designed would have worked A LOT better, is if pilot!Oliver had stuck around for years. If this was a show about taciturn robot vigilante being a lone wolf soldier righting the wrongs of his past as penance for what we were seeing in the flashbacks. But they threw THAT show out circa episode 114, and never went back to it.

[Morrigan2575]

i don't know i kind of like the idea of inverse parallel Oliver's.  The idea of Flashback Oliver going from Selfish Playboy Dbag to Stone Cold Remorseless killer.  While Present day Oliver goes from Stone Cold Remorseless killer to a more balanced, well rounded hero appealed to me.

Maybe it wasn't sustainable in the long run or maybe their execution is at fault?  I loved the S1 Oliver parallels especially the juxtaposition of The Hood and Flashback Oliver in 123. 

I tend to put the Flashback blame more on The Flash and the forced evolution of Arrow away from a gritty/realistic show about Vigilantes to one that includes Superpowers (hello Mirakuru) and magic.

[dtissagirl]

I feel like the writers themselves realize the inverse Olivers thing wasn't sustainable. S1 and S2 worked for that, and the character development in the flashbacks contrasted the character development in present time.

But S3+S4 totally stopped being about developing flashback Oliver, and instead the flashbacks became about situating fb!Oliver in the same vicinity of the present time McGuffin. The dumb virus in S3, the dumb totem in S4. Like, seriously, if someone is brave enough to watch JUST the flashbacks for S3 and S4, that's all fb!Oliver is about -- being near some plot device that was gonna show up in his life five years later. Character development for flashback Oliver was kinda thrown out the window along with pilot!Oliver being phased out of existence.

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, I absolutely agree, S1/2 Arrow really spent time juxtaposing SC Oliver and Flashback Oliver.  In fact S2 specifically set out (early on) to set them on opposite paths. Everything in 2A Arrow was going Rosey and Oliver was fast becoming a hero while Flashback Arrow was going to shit.

S3/S4 they've completely lost the Flashback narrative and just seem to be stuck.  It's like the flashbacks are an after thought.  I know people are hoping Russian Oliver Flashbacks will be better but I've lost all expectations.  At this point I'm looking forward to 523 so the flashbacks will finally be over.  I'm also curious to see how they end the flashbacks, since the indication is that 523 flashback should end with Oliver Queen getting rescued from the Island.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[bijoux]

9 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm also curious to see how they end the flashbacks, since the indication is that 523 flashback should end with Oliver Queen getting rescued from the Island.

One of those fisherman rolling his eyes at the hairy dude puling this shit again and betting his naive friend that no way is he getting on the boat today. He didn't the last eleven times either. And then the naive friend is rubbing his hands and smirking as he's handed his winnings and Oliver heads below deck.

[Chaser]

LOT or Barry is going to fuck with time again and they are going to add a year to the flashbacks. 

[thegirlsleuth]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

LOT or Barry is going to fuck with time again and they are going to add a year to the flashbacks. 

That will finally convince me that Barry IS a villain.

[bijoux]

4 minutes ago, Chaser said:

LOT or Barry is going to fuck with time again and they are going to add a year to the flashbacks. 

Nah. Much like with LL, they haven't known what to do with the flashbacks for the last two seasons. I don't see the writers being sad for seeing them gone.

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, Chaser said:

LOT or Barry is going to fuck with time again and they are going to add a year to the flashbacks. 

Bite your tongue!  There are only 2 things that I want from Arrow, Death to Malcolm Merlyn and end to the flashbacks.

[Midnight Lullaby]

To me it feels like FB Oliver is the same person as current present time Oliver. I don't know if it's the writing, the acting or a combination of the two but it feels like they are telling two alternative stories that are happening to the same guy and one of them is boring and lacks Felicity and Dig.

I completely agree with what @dtissagirl said. At this point it makes no sense to show us Oliver becoming a person he isn't anymore and it doesn't even seem they are trying. I could see present Oliver being sent to the island and acting exactly like he did in the flashbacks. So what's the point? Do they realize why the FBs are falling flat after S1-2? At this point I guess they are too stubborn to drop them but thank God it's the last year.

[TrueMyth]

I am still bitter that they completely forgot that Oliver needed to learn Chinese in the FBs.

At this rate, I suspect his piloting will also be completely dropped.

[kismet]

9 hours ago, Chaser said:

LOT or Barry is going to fuck with time again and they are going to add a year to the flashbacks. 

Even without BA & LoT, I always imagined their initial plan was to stretch out fb until 6a since they had 6yr contracts. But who knows since the FB have completely fallen a part, I wonder if they even have a plan anymore.

[tv echo]

Present day Oliver - or even fully evolved Oliver - is always going to be closer to S1 Oliver than pre-island Ollie.

The change from pre-island Ollie to S1 Oliver is the most drastic and required 5 years of suffering, torture and killing.  Pre-island Ollie is essentially dead. Pre-island Ollie would not have been able to break Taiana's neck in cold blood. (Pre-island Ollie couldn't even deal with getting a girl pregnant.)

The change from S1 Oliver to S5 Oliver is less drastic and involves more of a balancing of his inner selves. He can still kill, but he won't do it as callously or as frequently.  He's now a hero who can kill when necessary.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's not that surprising that the closer the flashbacks get to S1, the more like present day Oliver he becomes.  However, I agree that S4 flashback Oliver was too like present day Oliver.

Edited June 6, 2016 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

-- In response to fan asking if he thought Oliver & Felicity will ever get married, SA: "I know that, uh - I know that, um, it was important, uh  - I thought especially at the end of season 4, with everything that happened, and obviously with, um, with Laurel Lance's death, that their relationship be put on the back burner, because I think there were more pressing issues, obviously.

No, not obviously, SA. Not obvious why I had to sit through 6 episodes of an extended eulogy for a character that barely mattered for most of 4+ seasons. Not obvious why the show spent 14 episodes this year ramping up the significance of the relationship between the two main characters only to break them up in the most contrived way possible and spend the rest of the season treating them like they were never together. 

[tangerine95]

At this point I really think they delayed the olicity reunion because of LL dying.I think they wanted to make sure that it can in no way be connected to her death so MG can point that out the next time he inevitably gets questions about is olicity fanservice and was Laurel killed because of them.I think it's horrible writing if they did that because they lessened the emotional impact of their own finale but that's the feeling I'm getting tbh.

[kismet]

I do appreciate the writers trying to make an effort to have O/F re-engagement & marriage not be connected to LL's death in any way. FS gets blamed enough for stuff on the show. I really don't want to have to hear that their engagement is only because of LL.

I also wonder if that is why they made FS be so adamant & mad in the limo. If everyone is gung-ho about LL in her death, then months from now when the dust settles - the show can't be blamed for forgetting about LL or using her death for their own personal gain/agendas. The canonization was a little over the top, but at least they can't be blamed for doing nothing to honor her.

The contrived break-up was bullshit. But I was never bitter about the Olicity getting pushed to the backburner at the the end of this season. I loved the love scene in 320, but in retrospect I did not appreciate how they handled O/F becoming a couple. It was too quick and did not address certain topics I would have liked. I loved them running off together, but they should have said that although they are running off together they need to have a serious conversation at some point. That would have sufficed my need for resolution without having to listen the writers attempt to write it, since they might have butchered it.

[looptab]

It seems that SA is letting the loud voices get to him, afterall. A couple weeks ago I wrote that I thought he was just trying not to fuel the hate and the rage, but now I am wondering where he stands, and whether he deems valid some of the harsher comments he's been getting, especially as it pertains to the "Olicity ruined the show" school of thought.

Edited June 7, 2016 by looptab

[NumberCruncher]

I admit I did get a little irritated at Stephen's latest response as to whether Felicity was right to walk away.  He went from basically telling the people complaining on FB that she made a perfectly rational decision based upon the facts of the situation to "she walked away too quickly".  WTF?  No, she didn't, and the fact that you're now backpeddling so as to seemingly agree with all of the sexist whiners makes me not like you as much.

[apinknightmare]

Wasn't that comment about her being quick to walk away part of a larger answer about the two of them going to couples counseling, and not an actual assessment of her with regards to the breakup? 

Edited June 7, 2016 by apinknightmare

[looptab]

16 minutes ago, NumberCruncher said:

I admit I did get a little irritated at Stephen's latest response as to whether Felicity was right to walk away.  He went from basically telling the people complaining on FB that she made a perfectly rational decision based upon the facts of the situation to "she walked away too quickly".  WTF?  No, she didn't, and the fact that you're now backpeddling so as to seemingly agree with all of the sexist whiners makes me not like you as much.

This. Especially since he brags about knowing the show so well, he knows everything about every character, so he should also know the reason why Felicity walked away "too quickly". The rooted in her being one, besides being a self-respecting woman, that is.

Edited June 7, 2016 by looptab

[Midnight Lullaby]

Does anyone have the video where he said she walked away too quickly? Because I'd like to have the context and the full answer before getting annoyed LOL.

Keeping Oliver and Felicity apart and acting as if nothing happened was just bad writing but I can see it could have been a ill advised idea to have the characters get engaged and be all happy and in love again a month after a supposedly close friend died. The problem is the show didn't convey the idea that any of the characters (with the exception of Lance) cared all that much about Laurel's death. That's the reason I find it a weak excuse. Not because rationally it doesn't have merit but because it doesn't match what we saw on screen. The lack of grief of the characters is also IMO the reason all the times they mentioned her after her death felt fake and weird.

Okay I read SA's complete answer in the other thread and I have so many issues with it. She was quick to walk away but rightfully quick. Honestly I can't with people not understanding her choice. She was even too nice IMO, I would have lost it. And what is saying "she is a fictional character, she can do what she wants" supposed to mean? That it would be a wrong behavior from a real life woman? That in reality a woman who was betrayed like that should have stayed and understood her man because poor him? I don't know what women he met in real life but NO dude, just no. I felt so much respect for him when he said her choice was understandable and now I lost it all.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[dtissagirl]

If I try to put myself in Felicity shoes, man, she's so much more rational and logical and *nice* than I am.

Let's see.

I'm in love, I'm planning to marry the guy, I tell him that I wanna be a true team member in this partnership, I tell him I think marriage is about sticking around through the heavy complicated stuff, but surprise! It turns out he's hiding that he has a 10 year old kid from me for months because the baby mama told him to. Half of the time while I'm suffering from physical difficulties due to attempted murder. So after I help him recover the kid from kidnapping, I break up with him because that's a massive breach of my trust. But it turns out we work together in a very high stakes important job, so I stay at the job. After I talk to him about it, that I don't want to leave, and he's fine with it.

And then at the very first opportunity, the guy convinces me to stage a fake wedding, so I dress up in my wedding gown from the real stuff that's not happening anymore because dude broke my trust, then we go to the venue the dude did not cancel despite my asking him to, and then he says his real wedding vows in an attempt at a grand gesture to win me over again.

I would have run away so far so fast dude would have never ever heard from me again.