Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[AyChihuahua]

I'm not really a crier, tv almost never makes me cry, I almost never cry at work, I almost never cried back when I had dramatic romantic relationship moments, etc. But in the last year, I had to have a dog put to sleep for behavioral issues, lost one really great cat to old age and another just disappeared, my heart dog Attila was hit by a car when my mother left the gate unlocked (he spent the night at the emergency vet with major brain trauma and I had to have him put to sleep the next day), and my mother died in a car crash on her way to pick me up from work. If I were this season's version of these characters, I would have laughed about having Boo put to sleep, maybe frowned once for each cat, cracked jokes about my absolutely beloved dog passing away in my arms, and maybe gotten a tiny bit teary about my mom dying.

Which would have made me, basically, psychopathic.

[way2interested]

2 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

I was thinking about this this morning, and I think they have been so determined not to allow anybody to cry this season as a MASSIVE overcorrection to last season that some of the characters are starting to come across as psychopaths.

So, in S3, for me, Felicity etc., cried in reaction to really bad things, and in reaction to not that bad of things. I actually do think she cried/did cry voice a bit too much, by which I don't so much mean total times she cried as that she cried in response to stuff that, while it sucked, wasn't THAT bad, and piled on to crying in response to really terrible stuff, it just became too much. So the EPs heard that criticism and massively overcorrected, so that this season, no one is allowed to respond emotionally to, well, anything. Thea nearly dies (again) and people joke and quickly get over it. She gets stuck in a dome and is told everyone else in the whole entire world is going to get nuked, and she's not so much as allowed to act bummed about it. Felicity is paralyzed and she doesn't shed a tear. She's forced to nuke one town to save another town, and that same night she's cracking jokes. These are things that any normal human being would react emotionally to, but bc Guggie has this truly stupid idea that the season is "lighter" as long as the characters never get bummed by any of the horrific things happening, they are not allowed to react in a remotely realistic emotional way, and it's making them come across as a combo of caricature and psychopath.

I semi-agree with you. I do think this season tried to massively over-correct any negative reactions (mostly Felicity's) to moments in the show, but I don't think it has delved into complete caricature or psychopath. The reasoning that they seem to have (besides the obvious to win over the haters) doesn't really seem that bad to me, that they want to focus more on the characters overcoming obstacles and sadness rather than focus too much on the horrible things that happen to them, but it does come across as the characters rushing tragedy through tragedy to just show how resilient they are without having them stick for too long.

But, to me, I didn't necessarily see the examples you gave in that way. When she was stuck in the dome, Thea was trying to get herself and Alex out of there while being angry that Malcolm that put her there in the first place. Thea did nearly die again, but the only one making jokes, I remember, was Felicity, and this season established that she uses humor as a cover for her anger/sadness, so many times she did make a joke this season it was to hide negative feelings rather than confront them, especially when other things are happening, like her father coming back vs. Thea dying, her feelings of guilt vs. trying to stop Rubicon. She did show emotion about being paralyzed to Oliver (shedding a tear while expressing her fears that Oliver didn't want to be with her anymore, and having that cry voice while she was listing things that she couldn't do anymore now that she was stuck in a wheelchair). And all of the characters have shown emotion to different extents this season over different things (Diggle over his brother being alive, Oliver at Thea/Felicity/Laurel dying/almost dying and at Felicity telling Oliver that her being paralyzed was not her fault, Thea with Roy about wanting to do all the normal things with each other, the whole cast reacting to Laurel's death, no matter how off they did feel). The only one that really feels off to me is the fact that we haven't got a real sit-down moment to react to nuking a town, but that is because these episodes are happening within the same 24-72 hour period, which is still a writing fail if they wanted all of these things to happen within the last 3 episodes.

My main problem is that it just doesn't feel as natural as it could to not be as emotional for these things. It is admirable to keep working to save the world after nuking a town, but having some of those jokes was going too far. I would get having biting sarcasm (especially after finding out that Felicity's ex was trying to stop them), but the tones just didn't match up, especially with Felicity gossiping with Curtis at the end of it all. Some reactions did seem realistic to me, despite the less emotional approach, but it might be because I haven't bee a too emotional person when I'm in distressing situations. I never cry or get angry for myself, and the only time I show strong emotions is reacting off of someone else (kind of like a sympathetic crier), so reactions/non-reactions just sometimes level out to me. But I do have a problem here with the conflicting images that the show might make with having characters being emotional to some extent (s3 and Laurel dying) and then not at others (nuke going off). It just makes the latter feel rushed and not as impacting as it really should be.  

Edited May 20, 2016 by way2interested

[kismet]

Just finished binging iZombie which is filmed in Vancouver on a CW budget, and I also watch OUAT and probably countless movies that are filmed in Vancouver. However each of those shows & movies I have seen do not make me constantly think they are filming in Vancouver. Why is it that the Flarrowverse cannot differentiate each show from each other?? I know they share sets, but there has to be a better way to film that doesn't force me to use me imagination to forget that they all take place in the same area. I cringe at the thought now of Supergirl sharing the same sets & locations. I know we make a joke of seeing the same staircase or the running joke redressing of sets, but it makes me bitter to know that the problem is likely only going to get worse and other shows can do it so much better. Every CW show is on a budget, is it really that hard to find a different Civic Plaza to take over?

[tv echo]

Those other shows don't have to spend a ton of money on special visual effects (speeding, flying, shrinking, growing, flames, time travel, space travel, magic, mega destruction, etc.) and action stunts very single week.

Edited May 22, 2016 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, kismet said:

Every CW show is on a budget, is it really that hard to find a different Civic Plaza to take over?

I don't think that has as much to do with the budget as it does with where Vancouver will let them film.  Where and when they can get permits and probably familiarity  with the location to make for easy setup/takedown and blocking.

[dtissagirl]

3 hours ago, kismet said:

Every CW show is on a budget, is it really that hard to find a different Civic Plaza to take over?

According to the in-depth reporting Vulture did this past week on TV production -- it really really REALLY is extremely hard finding new locations in Vancouver. UN-Real is filming at a pop-up studio. Other productions are renting temporary spaces for one season only. 
 

Quote

When A&E’s Bates Motel premiered three years ago, if showrunner Kerry Ehrin asked her line producer, Justis Greene, to hire a second camera crew for a day, he’d snag one at a moment’s notice. If he needed special equipment, like a 50-foot crane with a base for off-roading, Greene could usually swing that in 24 hours. These days, such last-minute requests are nearly impossible. Bates Motel is just one of almost 50 TV shows filming in Vancouver, Canada — known in the industry as Hollywood North — all of which are in competition to secure studio space, equipment, and crews. Even caterers, like Tangerine Catering, are turning down business every day, says owner Morten Kehler, whose Vancouver-based company can feed two productions daily.

“We can’t do things at the spur of the moment,” Greene says. “We are lucky because we are not a big action show, like The Flash and Arrow, our neighbors up here. I don’t have a two-day second unit flipping cars or doing stunts. But the number of shows is a little misleading, too, because complicated television shows are more labor-intensive and require more crews. So on 50 shows, you probably have closer to 150 crews working.”

Fueled by government subsidies — and a strong U.S. dollar — Peak TV has found a second home in Canada, filming around the clock in Vancouver, Toronto, and, lately, Montreal. To accommodate record levels of shooting, Vancouver is creating “pop-up” studio spaces. Lifetime’s UnREAL moved out of the overcrowded northern Vancouver lots to a converted warehouse space in the suburb of Burnaby for its second season. Canadian writer-producer Chris Haddock is using Vancouver’s old post office, which is slated to become a mixed-use real-estate development, to shoot his new spy thriller, The Romeo Section, according to Prem Gill, CEO of Creative BC, an organization that promotes production in the Canadian province of British Columbia.

“There is more creativity around trying to find … something that can be converted into a studio, even if it's temporarily,” says Gill, who notes that producers are enlisting realtors in the province to find other short-term vacant spaces not ordinarily zoned for TV production. “I’ve heard about a bingo hall that's been converted into a studio temporarily.”

http://www.vulture.com/2016/05/peak-tv-business-c-v-r.html

At this point, the Berlantiverse is lucky to have their one roof, their one dark alley, and their one staircase.

[kismet]

Thanks for all the info.  I realize logistics, but I can still be bitter about it.

[Starfish35]

I'm bitter because this is the only show I know of that makes me feel like the last few episodes of the season are an exhausted trudge, for me the viewer.  Instead of excitement to see how it all turns out, my only feeling is "can it be over already now?" Why does this show always go so off the rails after Christmas?  No, it's not quite as bad as last year, but seeing as how there's only about two episodes of last season that I would ever care to rewatch, that's not saying much.

Sorry, I'm just feeling grumpy today.  And I can't even blame it on Laurel anymore - lol.

[apinknightmare]

I've always been really excited (at the very least nervously excited) for the last few eps of the season. I'm pretty indifferent about it this year - I just don't feel like there's much to look forward to. That's why I don't believe any recent ratings drops have much to do with Laurel. I stan hard for this show - it's my favorite - and even I don't care about the finale (and haven't really cared about what's going on the past few episodes). 

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I've always been really excited (at the very least nervously excited) for the last few eps of the season. I'm pretty indifferent about it this year - I just don't feel like there's much to look forward to. That's why I don't believe any recent ratings drops have much to do with Laurel. I stan hard for this show - it's my favorite - and even I don't care about the finale (and haven't really cared about what's going on the past few episodes). 

I'm dead serious here, 418 was my Season Finale.  It's kind of like in Sports where you beat your most hated rival to knock them out of the playoffs. After that it's like whatever...this was THE most important game! 

Edited May 23, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm dead serious here, 418 was my Season Finale.  It's kind of like in Sports where you beat your most hated rival to knock them out of the playoffs. After that it's like whatever...this was THE most important game! 

I felt optimistic after Genesis - which I thought was truly great. But then the following two eps happened, and I'm more excited for it to finally be over than to actually watch what happens, haha.

Edited May 23, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Starfish35]

50 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm dead serious here, 418 was my Season Finale.  It's kind of like in Sports where you beat your most hated rival to knock them out of the playoffs. After that it's like whatever...this was THE most important game! 

I hadn't thought about it until you said it, but I think that's it in a way, at least for this season.  The death and the lead up to it was so much of a big deal that everything afterwards feels anticlimactic.  If I cared more about DD's evil plan, I might be more interested, but I really really don't.  I like NM, but they really have not used him well (IMO) and at this point I'm just like "yeah yeah whatever, are we done yet? Next!"

Edited May 23, 2016 by Starfish35

[Thundercatmary]

I'm actually pretty excited for the finale however...

i really think the writers would benefit from planning and pacing the seasons better. 

[Guest]

I always get that 'Ugh, I can't wait for the season to be over' feeling around episodes 13-18 and I did this season too. I feel like they always drop the ball on storytelling/plot/pacing around that time and it never quite recovers.

I think the problem this season was that everything was so geared towards 'The Death' that everything afterwards feels a bit lacklustre (420 aside because that episode was fantastic). Not because of who died but purely because they messed up the whole pacing of everything. Because we had essentially 2 episodes lost to death/grief/retconning dumb stuff/fanservice, everything was put on pause. And now there's no time to deal with the dangling thread of O/F and their issues (sorry but they're acting like nothing has happened which I find bizarre) and then we have Smoak family drama in an episode where it probably wasn't appropriate and should have happened much earlier. We've not really dealt with Diggle killing Andy fallout aside from Oliver asking Diggle if he's okay. And Damien's big plan was way too dragged out. It feels like they've lost direction a bit. 

Also that nuclear war plot really doesn't suit Arrow. IDK what they were thinking with that.

[Mellowyellow]

Just finished episode 13. Seriously besides being super hot I don't find Oliver bringing anything particularly good to Felicity’s life. Lying bastard deserves the lying hag he got pregnant. 

Don't mind Laurel very much anymore! She and Felicity should just find smarter men to date! If Laurel wasn't dead and all. 

I was so shippy first 3 seasons and even before I watched this season I read the spoilers but still felt shippy. Now I'm watching it I feel like Felicity is way too good for him.  He really needs to do something because imo she can do much better than him but he's never going to find anyone like her. 

[RussianRoulette]

48 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I was so shippy first 3 seasons and even before I watched this season I read the spoilers but still felt shippy. 

It's kind of my mindset as well. Which is too bad really. I had high hopes after the premiere and especially during 4a during which they were written as a mature and stable couple (that is before the BMD of DOOM and GLOOM). But then TV Trope-how-to-break-a couple-101 kicked in and it has left me *almost* apathetic about the state or future of that relationship, to the point where I am thinking that perhaps them being friends might be better. So yeah. Thanks for nothing, writers.

[tv echo]

I'm looking forward to the season finale, but mostly because I'm curious as to how this season ends (and sets up next season) and where all the characters end up.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, the writers decided O/F had to break up this season, looked around for causes that would accomplish that, and said "Ooh, what about that lying hag baby mama?! We'll have Oliver pick that lying hag over Felicity, it'll be great!" But they had no idea how much permanent damage they'd be doing to Oliver and by extension Olicity with that decision. They really, really effed up, and if they don't realize that that, along with casting KC, was their biggest mistake of this show, they're idiots. 

[Guest]

I only see two strikes against Oliver as a boyfriend this season. The first one was not being in the hospital after Felicity was shot. Hated it then, hate it now. And the second is obviously lying to Felicity about having a kid. The internet can try to get him out of it for all manner of reasons 'But Ollie has PTSD! But he had no choice! But he didn't want to lie!' Shut it, no, he still lied to the woman he planned to marry and he deserved to lose her for that.

However, all that aside, I think Oliver has been a good boyfriend to Felicity the rest of the time (see @quarks' lengthy post in the relationship thread) and took shit from her in 406 when she behaved really badly, IMO. I'm not saying that as a comparison to Oliver's behavior, just that she was in the wrong in that episode and never apologized and no one seems to say anything about that tbh. There needs to be a bit of give and take in relationships.

I can see why people are doubting Olicity and I blame the baby mama crap for that (forever bitter about that mess!) but I'm definitely still rooting for them, however long it takes. And even though I wanted them to end on a note of hope in 423, I actually think going back to friends and building their relationship up again would be the best in the long run.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Guest
missing words!

[AyChihuahua]

Lots of people, including me, were quite unhappy with Felicity's behavior in 4.6. But being crabby for a couple days is just a whole different level than lying about having a kid and preparing to make her a stepmother without her knowledge or consent. 

I think he was a good boyfriend, but a terrible fiance. If he hadn't told her about the dumb kid but NOT proposed, I would have been much more okay with it. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

YMMV, and I know some people need the words "I'm sorry" or "I apologize" for something to be an apology, but I though the whole "we found ourselves in each other" in the yin&yang kiss scene WAS Felicity apologizing.

What matters to me more isn't the apology, but how the slighted character reacts to the situation after it's fixed. When Oliver found out in 401 Felicity had been helping the team behind his back, he was more amused than anything. That's what matters to me in the aftermath of Felicity hiding something from him. He didn't care, so I don't either.

When Oliver and Felicity finally talked in the hospital after she got paralyzed, she didn't care that he wasn't around. And he apologized for it, but she *understood* why he did it, and didn't need the words. She didn't care, so I don't either.

The end of 406 is the same to me -- Oliver didn't deserve to be treated that way by Felicity, and she went to him at the end of the episode to make amends, and he accepted it. He didn't need the word "sorry", so I didn't need it either.

The difference with the BMD is, they set it up in a way that FELICITY CARED. An apology was never gonna be sufficient, and it was never gonna fix anything. That's the whole of it for me -- in this instance, the narrative made it so the slighted character [Felicity] care a whole deal about being slighted, and so I also care for it.

Edited May 24, 2016 by dtissagirl

[kismet]

I also think it didn't help that they Olicity get engaged during  the lie. The lie takes on different forms if told between gf/bf and a married couple. When you're married there is more pressure to at least try to work it through via conversation & therapy. When you're just dating, its easier to just walk away.

When you're engaged it's somewhere inbetween, so the writers could off their contrived melodrama effect. But it's really a crappy choice for the characterization because unlike O/L which was setup on a break up get back together model when things get tough. O/F was more evolved and seemed to be on the track of try to work it ot together.  So they basically went against 4y of characterization and what made O/F a good couple to get a few weeks worth of drama. Not worth it in my book.

So I guess for me, Im bitter they chose the engagement when they did because it cheapens the engagement. Skip the engagement, it still a crappy storyline. But with the engagement its just helluva lot worse.

I'm also bitter because I think they approached the romantic drama for a l/o perspective and not a o/f perspective, which I hope is a holdover from s3 and not a trend. The reason people gravitate towards o/F is because they have the opposite of the dynamic they created with l/o. Partners as opposed to on/off lovers with  issues.

[apinknightmare]

I care about the lying, and I'm glad Oliver faced consequences for it, but Oliver had been a pretty great partner to Felicity leading up to that, so I'm not willing to write him or them off over it. If they get back together and he does it again, then I might not feel so charitable toward him.

[AyChihuahua]

For me, both Oliver's and Felicity's problematic behavior has resulted in, at least, apology-adjacent behavior and words. I basically count Oliver's "I'll never lie to you again," etc., as apology-adjacent. I'd prefer full-throated "I'm sorry for my behavior" from all of them, but I can live with what I got in all cases. But for me, even a full apology wouldn't cut it for what Oliver did. Part of that is how long it went on...he didn't keep it from her for days, he didn't make a quick mistake, he CHOSE to keep lying to her every day for months, even as others learned about it. He had MORE than enough time to fix his mistake. 

Plus, of course, fundamentally the whole setup just made no sense. He absolutely had a choice, as Felicity is an amazing secret-keeper and would cut off her arm before letting ANY kid get hurt, much less Oliver's kid. Lying hag baby mama had no possible way of knowing if he told Felicity, or even Felicity plus the whole team, all of whom would have kept that secret (even Laurel, as much as I disliked her she wouldn't have put a kid in danger). So the fundamental conflict was entirely nonsensical, which immediately puts me in a position against Oliver.

I do mostly like Oliver again, but I often find my mind drifting back to that BS during otherwise nice moments. I think it just permanently took the shine off the rose for me, and I won't ever be able to get it back. 

[dtissagirl]

12 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I think he was a good boyfriend, but a terrible fiance. If he hadn't told her about the dumb kid but NOT proposed, I would have been much more okay with it. 

This is a great summary of the situation for me too. 409 is the weirdest thing for me. I loved that episode, and I loved how O/F interacted in that episode, and how the idea of marriage grows between them in each discussion... and yet there's the black cloud of the BMD looming *on me*, but not at all on Oliver. He doesn't care [or in another way: the narrative doesn't care] that he's hiding a freaking son from Felicity, and that's where the disconnect from accepting narrative cues crumble for me -- I WANTED Oliver to have cared a great deal, at that moment, that he was hiding something from Felicity when he proposed to her.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

But being crabby for a couple days is just a whole different level than lying about having a kid and preparing to make her a stepmother without her knowledge or consent. 

Which is exactly what I said anyway...

[RussianRoulette]

In a relationship is not always a perfect 50/50 and I agree that Felicity was lashing out her frustrations in 4x06  and I'm with @apinknightmare to say that Oliver was a pretty good partner up to the BMD-calypse. That said lovers' squabbles/frustrations happen in the course of a relationship. Lying about something as important as having a kid, especially after proposing mariage, is a totally different ball game in my book. And more than reflecting characters' flaws, this 'melodramatic' storyline highlights how uninspired and redundant Arrow writers are. Because Drama. /bitter rant. I understand though that it takes a certain talent to write Coach Taylor/Tami Taylor kind of relationship.

[dtissagirl]

ONE LINE would have fixed a lot for me -- in the limo in 409, right before the machine guns, if Oliver had started saying, "Felicity, there's something I need to tell you--" and got interrupted by getting shot at.

If I could ask Berlanti one single question about Arrow, it would be, what's the motivation for Oliver to not take into consideration that he was hiding a secret kid when he proposed to Felicity. Because the relocation back to Star City made him reconsider proposing in 401. Why didn't the secret kid factor in anyway in 409?

And I know there's no motivation at all, it's all plotty plot shitiness, but I would like to ask anyway.

[Password]

As much as I'd like to ask the same question @dtissagirl the problem I face is that I understand the baby mama drama was never meant to make sense. The only purpose was to break them up therefore applying any logic from my POV is pointless because it MAKES NO SENSE. 

And if I apply logic, my anger at Oliver boils over and I need calm right now. 

[way2interested]

20 minutes ago, Password said:

As much as I'd like to ask the same question @dtissagirl the problem I face is that I understand the baby mama drama was never meant to make sense. The only purpose was to break them up therefore applying any logic from my POV is pointless because it MAKES NO SENSE. 

See, my biggest problem with the bmd was that it could have made sense. Oliver having a kid alone could have brought up enough issues for Oliver and Felicity to break up or at least take a break to reevaluate their relationship priorities. Oliver keeping the kid a secret was one of the worst case scenario plots that they could have and did take, and even then they took it to a worse degree. Even having Oliver keeping the kid a secret, the show could have had framed it as Oliver keeping the kid a secret because he didn't want to confront the problem (and then not visit the kid at all), because he didn't want to face Felicity breaking up with him (thanks Barry), or just strictly because he wanted to try to solve the problem on his own (with some hint that Oliver was trying to convince Samantha to let him tell Felicity this entire time or some attempt from Oliver to actually tell Felicity to show that he was trying to be a different person). The break up between Oliver and Felicity could have still been about the idea that Oliver refuses to treat Felicity like a complete partner by using that as the final straw as a comparison to all of Oliver's actions from s3 that were barely addressed.

Instead, the show went with an extremely simplistic take on the drama that pushed characters into weird positions with the sole reasoning being to make sure that Felicity breaks up with Oliver not because he had a kid. It was just really lazy writing that had the writers continuously choosing the worst-case scenario for each point of execution, with much better options existing and being continuously ignored along the way.  

Edited May 24, 2016 by way2interested

[GirlvsTV]

I'm not so much upset at Oliver anymore, but I am extremely bitter the show seems to want push this bonkers idea that BOTH Felicity and Oliver had a hand their break-up. Every time they try to insinuate Felicity is distrustful because of her past, or that Oliver had no choice but to lie - my rage boils over anew. I'm pretty sure in the last ep Curtis alluded to Felicity's issues with her Father playing a role in the break-up, which I do not understand. Up until the BMD, Oliver had given Felicity several reasons to not trust him (looking at you S3) so it felt pretty reasonable for Felicity to ditch him in 4x15. Her not trusting Oliver isn't based on her Father abandoning her, but is based on Oliver proving himself to be untrustworthy. No matter how many times the writers try to retcon the break-up mess via dialog it doesn't change what actually happened in the show. My deepest fear is they'll resolve the break-up with Felicity apologizing or admitting that her 'issues' got in the way, when the only thing that needs to happen is for OLIVER to be more open and prove to Felicity he is worth another chance. 

What I actually think will happen is Oliver will stay positive and work to keep the team together during the finale, Felicity will see he has changed and the two will be ready to grow closer again - even though that has nothing to do with why they broke up in the first place. I have no faith whatsoever these writers will be bothered enough for consistency with this storyline.

Edited May 24, 2016 by GirlvsTV

[apinknightmare]

The only way the drama would've worked for me would've been if Oliver had gone with his first instinct when he found out about William and stayed away from him for what Oliver believed was his own good. Not having him lie for fear of Felicity breaking up with him, or because Samantha asked him to, but because he truly believed that not subjecting the kid to the scrutiny of being his son, and not subjecting him to the dangers of being closely associated with the Green Arrow was what Oliver truly believed was best for him, with the full intention of staying out of his life forever.

Felicity could've found out about that somehow (maybe Oliver still took the hair to Barry, and Barry let it slip, IDK). Since Felicity grew up believing her father abandoned her, that would've brought up some issues with her that we've heard her mention on-screen, and would've made her question marrying a guy who willingly stayed out of his own child's life. Of course, MG and co would've probably had Oliver reach out to William because of Felicity, and then the little idiot would've gotten kidnapped for drama, and then we would've had "Oliver's kid was kidnapped because of her!!!111!!" idiocy, so maybe it's better they didn't go there.  

Edited May 24, 2016 by apinknightmare

[TimetravellingBW]

On top of the BMD just being a contrived situation to break O/F up because "drama is good", the bit I find most annoying is the writers did everything to make Oliver sympathetic and give him a POV, while denying Felicity the same. Oliver gets Diggle and Thea siding with him, he gets a heart wrenching monologue saying goodbye to his son, he gets sad panda eyes and beautiful wedding vows and scenes to talk about how he feels. Everything is set up for ~oh poor little Oliver~ losing everything because of his "impossible situation."

Meanwhile Felicity is framed with as the dumper who makes snide snarky comments to cover up her feelings and whose feelings are only validated and linked to crazy Cupid's perspective of all people. There's so little acknowledgment that Felicity is in just as much pain as Oliver. (Because breaking up with someone you still love and who is badgering to get back together with you, is just as hard as being dumped imo. To have the will to keep saying no is freaking hard.) There's no scenes with Diggle comforting Felicity. Like others have said, there's no giving Felicity layers by her talking about her previous trust issues with Noah and Cooper. Or linking it to Oliver lying last season. And what's the result? The fans largely side with Oliver and turn on Felicity, and the previously fan favourite character and fan preferred couple lose support. Just as the writers kill the character that was put aside for Felicity. (I mean I'm sure articles like "Olicity killed Arrow" and statements like"Felicity is universally hated" would have been thrown about after Laurel's death anyway. But they've gained more traction due to the absolutely horrific writing regarding Felicitys POV.) I just wish the writers would spend more time worrying about Felicity's position and less about Oliver.

Oh and final URGH with the whole appalling BMD drama: At no point does anyone acknowledge that it was as simple as Oliver lying to Samantha or lying to Felicity. Forget the "impossible situation" and "my son vs Felicity" crap. Samantha wouldn't know if you told Felicity. So it's either the woman who lied to you for years or your fiancée. End of story.

[AyChihuahua]

4 hours ago, GirlvsTV said:

Up until the BMD, Oliver had given Felicity several reasons to not trust him (looking at you S3) so it felt pretty reasonable for Felicity to ditch him in 4x15. Her not trusting Oliver isn't based on her Father abandoning her, but is based on Oliver proving himself to be untrustworthy.

SERIOUSLY! 

[Mellowyellow]

I think I just need to accept that this is Oliver’s show and I unfortunately am obsessed and in love with a side character. They are always going to write the story in defense of him.  Much like on Reign where Mary does lots of sh%tty things but it is her show so she's the heroine no matter what.  Tis the way of the world.

My consolation is that the break up was pretty good (yes I watched that episode first). The raging banshee in me is so proud of Felicity for dumping his a$$ in such a dignified manner. Must have been hard to walk away from all his grovelling. She looked like she was really torn. 

[TimetravellingBW]

Yeah, Oliver is the lead so obviously his narrative/pov comes first. But if the writers were engineering a break up and wanted both characters to remain sympathetic, they needed to give both  characters a voice. I suspect they realised how poorly Oliver was perceived after the crossover and went full on "must preserve Oliver's honour."  

With the break up scene, I didn't like that they made it about Felicity walking again, that devalued that moment - but as a whole I was happy with how Felicity dealt with the situation. She was dignified, firm but not cruel and put her feelings aside to rescue William. The claims that she was some shrill harpy complaining about her situation while a child was in danger, just make me ?!?!? She clearly waited until after William was safe and away, to think about things. She didn't rip into Samantha even when Samantha herself admitted her insane, shrewish demands. Felicity waited to break up with Oliver so he could stay focused. She was more professional and understanding than most. 

I mean there have been complaints that Laurel was the better person because she openly hugged Samantha and only cried to her Dad later rather than calling poor Ollie out. But given we now know Laurel let Oliver treat her terribly for years because she was in love with him - she's a pretty terrible model to use for dealing with Oliver. In hindsight you wonder if she was so sweet and forgiving of Samantha because she hoped it would make Oliver like her more than ~unreasonable, I won't be treated like this ~ Felicity.

[Mellowyellow]

I meant the breakup scene in the episode after where he tries to wheedle her into marriage again and she looks slightly tempted but refuses. I don't think Oliver Queen took the first break up seriously. 

[kismet]

Even with all of their sympathetic spins on OQ's behavior, and as someone who can rationalize some lying. I absolutely believed he deserved to pay a steep price for this lie. I'm still freaking bitter that the BMD was horribly written and a plotty plotline/SL. Like a lot of us have said, there are ways to write quality drama and it be good regardless of which side you take. That was not the scenario here. Overall besides being infuriating, it was just poorly written and executed. I don't mind being angry at a plotline, but at least I want it to be worthy my anger. I love Olicity so it made me angry that this was what we were getting.

I have watched some pretty soapy and melodramatic dramas in my life, and can stand by them as soapy but still well written or at least a good guilty pleasure. This BMD failed on all levels. And that makes me bitter, I am embarrassed by the BMD. I feel like I need to put an asterisk on it, if I recommend this season to others.

Edited May 25, 2016 by kismet

[Mellowyellow]

Watching episode 14 right now.  OMG it's vile!!!!!!  Thea is dead to me!!!!!

It was my perfect ship and they killed it. 

Now I need to sit through 15 and watch that nasty hag and the dimwitted son  (seriously could they not write that kid to be a bit more realistic? My 3 year old is MUCH more intelligent!!!!! When he was 2!!!!!!) because hubby hasn't seen it yet.  

Hubby keeps smirking and saying "Told you she should have stuck with Ray." 

[Password]

Episode 14 prepares you for 15. By the time 15 came around I had no strength to rage. 

[lexicon]

@Mellowyellow I agree with everything you've said about how vile the BMD is, so much so that I've never seen ep 15 and likely never will because I'm pretty certain that seeing Felicity have to deal with that level of WTfckery will taint Olicity (maybe) forever for me. 

That being said there is nothing on God's green earth and in the heaven's above that will ever, EVER, EH-VA, make me see Ray Palmer as a viable alternative for Felicity or any rational thinking woman tbh. That crazy eyed-arrogant-not-as-funny-as-he-thinks-he-is-douche-bag needs to stay far far away from the fabulous Ms. Smoak. 

[dtissagirl]

26 minutes ago, lexicon said:

That being said there is nothing on God's green earth and in the heaven's above that will ever, EVER, EH-VA, make me see Ray Palmer as a viable alternative for Felicity or any rational thinking woman tbh. That crazy eyed-arrogant-not-as-funny-as-he-thinks-he-is-douche-bag needs to stay far far away from the fabulous Ms. Smoak. 

I thought Crazy Eyes was a creep with Kendra* too, so it's really not that I 'ship Felicity with someone else. It's that I find him creepy.

Although the creeper factor on all Kendra's potential love interest is so high, he features down on the list:
Creepiest: Savage
Creepier: Carter
Creep: Palmer
Nice Guy[TM]: Cisco

[bijoux]

Where does Jax rank?

[quarks]

I liked Ray a lot more with Kendra, but it does say something that after living with the guy for two years, her initial response to his proposal was an uh, maybe, is this actually happening, huh, I should talk to the deadly killer assassin who previously took off with her sister's boyfriend before hooking up with an assassin who kidnapped her mother about this and then waffle about this for a few more episodes before deciding, nah, eh, I'll stick with the boring guy.

[dtissagirl]

I do find it amusing that Palmer looks like freaking Superman, but so far women see him as the second banana guy you settle for when ~the love of your life~ is unavailable. I guess they are accidentally writing him against type?
 

9 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Where does Jax rank?

I didn't even remember THAT, so I guess that answers where he ranks for me. Did Kendra ever know he was interested? I can't remember that either.

[Mellowyellow]

I didn't mind Ray. Thought he was hilarious when he did the team up with Oliver. He loved Felicity so he was a good judge of character therefore brownie points for him! And he was perky! Plus he never threatened the ship! I spent most of my time feeling sorry for him for loving a girl who was in love with someone else. 

[AyChihuahua]

7 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Now I need to sit through 15 and watch that nasty hag and the dimwitted son  (seriously could they not write that kid to be a bit more realistic? My 3 year old is MUCH more intelligent!!!!! When he was 2!!!!!!) because hubby hasn't seen it yet.  

One of my personal favorite running jokes on these boards is how incredibly dumb that kid is. I mean hey, none of the Queens (minus Moira, obviously) are at all bright, but that kid, man. I really believe most TWO-YEAR-OLDS would know that being taken from their rooms by some weird black-garbed one-handed man and handed over to another guy is NOT A GOOD THING. Nope, the dumb little 4TH-GRADER just sat there furiously coloring and playing with his dollies.

Edited May 25, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

I don't want to rag on the s4 finale so soon. But it is a big hope for me that they introduce some new stunt coordinators or ideas in s5. When the new & exciting thing you do is bring in extras to yell & throw stuff - your stunts are getting a little stale.

The big finale fight, literally felt like a redux of Brick's big battle in the middle of s3. The only difference was OQ was present at this one. I know there are only so many ways to punch & shoot people. But there has to be something new that you can introduce. I was bored by the shooting at the beginning. And the hand to hand combat, although well-shot & better acted than in the middle of the season. It was still the same old, same old.

DD had magic and the best they could do was a fist fight? I know the writers watched Harry Potter, why didn't Bamford? He might have gotten some inspiration.

And now that I type that, I'm a little disappointed that they didn't show more of the extras showing more emotion that the world is ending? I get the looting, but it would have been nice to get a little more emotional range. Some hugging or crying or something. Something that showed that there was more at stake in the battle against Darhkness.

Edited May 26, 2016 by kismet

[tv echo]

I am tired of the double standard when it comes to complaints about Felicity, including the following:

1.  "Felicity cries too much." - This has been discussed and rebutted in this forum ad nauseum.  Barry cries all the time, but doesn't get slammed for it as much as Felicity. Other characters cry as well.

2.  "Felicity was too cheery and happy after [Laurel's death][the nuke strike]." - It's already been established on the show that Felicity uses humor as her defense mechanism and her emotional armor.  People respond to death in different ways.  If she had been dour and weepy instead throughout the remaining episodes, then she would've been slammed for that. Curtis was also funny and upbeat after the nuke strike, but didn't get slammed for it.

3.  "Felicity was too cold after [Laurel's death][the nuke strike]." - Felicity is an analytical person who can compartmentalize in order to get the job done, which she needed to do in order to defuse the potentially apocalyptic situation.  (She also did it during the BMD in order to help rescue William.) Oliver also compartmentalizes in order to deal with the pending crises, but, as a guy, he's described as stoic.

4.  "Felicity is fickle for [quitting the team][quitting Oliver]." - This has also been discussed and rebutted in this forum ad nauseum. Other characters, including Oliver, have quit the team and then returned.  They all had valid reasons for doing so, and so did Felicity.  Her break-up with Oliver was also for valid reasons (ymmv).  Her emotional and psychological mindset has maybe been clarified by the additional back story about her parents. In any event, this issue has been thoroughly hashed to death in this forum.

5.  "Felicity has too much screen time." - Other supporting characters have gotten tons of screen time, with Oliver and/or apart from Oliver. IIRC, just about every episode of Arrow has an A plot and a B plot (sometimes even a C plot).  The A plot almost always involves Oliver, while the B plot involves a supporting character(s), although there have been a few exceptions during the course of the series where Oliver was relegated to the B plot.  Therefore, parts of episodes - and sometimes even entire episodes - have been devoted to supporting characters (Laurel, Roy, Diggle, Felicity, Thea, Ray, Sara - even Quentin got an episode). Yet it seems that now only Felicity gets slammed for her screen time.

Edited May 27, 2016 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

Sara got slammed for her screentime when she was on the show all the time. As a Sara fan coming here was difficult during Season 2 since all I saw were complaints about her. Now some of those complaints are directed at Felicity. If you don't like the character most anything they will do will annoy you. That's how I feel about Laurel and that's how others feel about Felicity. It's the vicious circle of the fandoms. It used to be shipper wars, not it's character wars.