Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[apinknightmare]

It's a way of marginalizing women's interests by writing them off as "silly," and "immature." Like, Olicity is girling up their man show! Never mind the fact that the male audience that enjoys Olicity seems to be fairly large. Don't feel bitter-it's mostly just sexism at work. If anything, people who feel that way should make you want to be more vocal about what you love, because, well...screw 'em.

Edited September 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Oh, romance is totally an immature tween thing. It's not like any great literature or folk tales were about romance. Except for most of them, that is.  And I can't think of a single opera that doesn't have a romance (usually doomed) at its core.

 

 So I do not know why the angst of s3 bothered me so much... my threshold for angst is pretty high at this point. All I can say is maybe I just like well written angst, and season 3 was not well written in many departments, esp. the angst.

It wasn't the angst itself (see comments on angsty fanfic) but the stupidity of the decisions that were made which led to angst, chiefly Oliver's decision to protect Merlyn, which caused angst to Thea, Roy, Diggle, Felicity and even Nyssa.  Also Laurel's decision not to tell her father that Sara had died, which caused unnecessary angst for Quentin when he found out and was angry at Laurel and Laurel's consequent angst.

 

It was like they dialed up the angst to 12, and for Felicity, between being dumped after their first kiss, Cooper's return, Oliver push/pull, death and abandonment, and the faithlessness of Ray, it seemed like it never stopped.

Edited September 23, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

There was a lot of stupidity, I will give you that - but don't think that was it. Honestly, I think it was just poorly written and acted angst. I just wasn't feeling it. Something about a lot of the angst felt inauthentic. They didn't tackle the angst head on, they upped the volume - but its like they forgot to plug in the angst. Or it was like that annoying feedback you always hear when a mic is too close to the amp. Either way, I am trying to look forward to better things to come.

[dtissagirl]

I think it was unnecessary angst FOR THE AUDIENCE. Which was worse than the unnecessary angst for the characters.

#StopMiseryPorn2k15

Edited September 23, 2015 by dtissagirl

[AyChihuahua]

I had to stop watching The Walking Dead last season when they had the scene in which a THIRD horse was ripped apart (for no particular story reason, either).  However, before that I swear The Walking Dead was frigging happier than Arrow.  At least the characters seemed mostly to like each other and they had about as many victories as defeats. 

[Starfish35]

Somewhat belated but worth waiting for - 3x22 photo recap posted by atom1cflea (a few edited pics from recap below)...

$#@! EVERYTHING. ARROW RECAP 322, THIS IS YOUR SWORD

September 22, 2015

http://atom1cflea.tumblr.com/post/129683491181/everything-arrow-recap-322-this-is-your

Her recaps are my favorite, but honestly, reading through that, I was just reminded how much I hated that episode. And that whole stupid arc.

Loved Tatsu though - I wish she was coming back. :(

[lemotomato]

As a testament to how much I loathed that episode, I couldn't even make myself read the recap, even though I know atomicflea is awesome at making fun of the absurdities. It's one of the two Arrow episodes that I wish could be wiped from existence. I hope she gets around to doing 3x23, though.

[Starfish35]

It's up there with Sara and Canaries for worst episodes of the season for me. Seriously, Tatsu was the only redeeming factor in that episode as far as I am concerned.

[dtissagirl]

Grrrreat timing, @ArrowWriters:

 

https://twitter.com/ARROWwriters/statuses/647180059002847232

[lemotomato]

It's up there with Sara and Canaries for worst episodes of the season for me. Seriously, Tatsu was the only redeeming factor in that episode as far as I am concerned.

Yeah, Canaries is the second episode I hated. I mean, I didn't like a lot of season 3, but only those two episodes enraged me enough to go onto tumblr and demand an explanation from MG for the awfulness of Felicity disparaging Sara to make Laurel look good, and the offensive forced wedding.

[Guest]

Grrrreat timing, @ArrowWriters:

 

https://twitter.com/ARROWwriters/statuses/647180059002847232

 

LOL @ the replies. "Excuse me, I have to go vomit." 

 

 

Question. Did anyone really enjoy s3 as a whole though? There's literally only one person in fandom I know loved every minute of it and that's Jbuffyangel and well, I wonder sometimes if we're even watching the same show tbh.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Guest

[kismet]

LOL @ the replies. "Excuse me, I have to go vomit."

Question. Did anyone really enjoy s3 as a whole though? There's literally only one person in fandom I know loved every minute of it and that's Jbuffyangel and well, I wonder sometimes if we're even watching the same show tbh.

I wonder that too... I know I didn't. I know a lot of people here didn't. There were good moments, but as a whole - nope didn't like it.

I'm not even sure jbuffyangel liked it as a whole, I think she just prefers to live in positivity and slight denial as she spins away her theories and analysis.

[apinknightmare]

I didn't hate it overall, really. Although I don't rewatch it like I did season 2. 

 

Like, I didn't mind some of the things that happened, but I really hated the way they happened. 

 

I hated that they killed Sara. I thought for sure she would've been kidnapped and that would be how Laurel would come to be Black Canary - because she'd want to help find her. I absolutely hated her lying to Quentin - I thought that was the worst part of the whole season because it was so stupid and unnecessary. I would've appreciated her fighting skills being built up instead of plot convenient, but that happens to everyone. 

 

I wouldn't have minded the Olicity angst to a certain extent, but didn't really care for Ray as a pitstop on that journey. I think he would've been better as a platonic science friend. 

 

Hated Quentin's vendetta. 

 

I didn't mind Oliver infiltrating the League, really - I like good-guy-goes-deep-undercover-to-bring-down-the-bad-guys plots, but I think it would've been better if they hadn't tried to make us believe that he was actually brainwashed. 

 

I'm glad Thea became Speedy. 

 

I wish Malcolm had died at any point - I've said this countless times before, but fitting him into the plot is really what made this season a mess. 

 

So...didn't hate it, didn't love it. I'm glad it's over, and I hope S4 is NOTHING like it.

Edited September 24, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Starfish35]

Yeah I sure didn't.

I think, though, that This Is Your Sword is the episode that kind of broke me, as far as being an Arrow fan. The wedding was bad, but for me it was just the whole episode really. This was the episode where I was just like "I don't even think I like any of these people anymore. Why am I watching this show again?" I'm not kidding - this episode for some reason just killed my love for the show. Maybe I'll rediscover it again during these first few episodes - maybe I won't. But this season just was awful, and this episode for some reason was just the final straw.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Starfish35

[Guest]

I wonder that too... I know I didn't. I know a lot of people here didn't. There were good moments, but as a whole - nope didn't like it.

I'm not even sure jbuffyangel liked it as a whole, I think she just prefers to live in positivity and slight denial as she spins away her theories and analysis.

 

Yeah, same.

 

Eh. I read her reviews sometimes and no offense or anything but that was a lot of denial. She was all 'everything is happening how it should be!' and I was like 'Um, no it is not. This should not be happening!' LOL.

 

Even as an Olicity fan I can't honestly say I enjoyed the way they were written. I understand why things happened but I don't agree with how they happened. I enjoyed some of their moments (loved the first date, loved him saying "I love you" and the forehead kiss, loved their return to friendship in 316, and of course I loved them in 320) and I think SA and EBR have the kind of chemistry that can elevate crappy writing which helped a lot but nah. I wasn't impressed overall. And that's just Olicity.

 

I can't even begin to think of the rest of the crap that happened in s3. So much dumb plot, not enough character.

 

 

I didn't hate it overall, really. Although I don't rewatch it like I did season 2. 

 

Like, I didn't mind some of the things that happened, but I really hated the way they happened. 

 

I hated that they killed Sara. I thought for sure she would've been kidnapped and that would be how Laurel would come to be Black Canary - because she'd want to help find her. I absolutely hated her lying to Quentin - I thought that was the worst part of the whole season because it was so stupid and unnecessary. I would've appreciated her fighting skills being built up instead of plot convenient, but that happens to everyone. 

 

I wouldn't have minded the Olicity angst to a certain extent, but didn't really care for Ray as a pitstop on that journey. I think he would've been better as a platonic science friend. 

 

Hated Quentin's vendetta. 

 

I didn't mind Oliver infiltrating the League, really - I like good-guy-goes-deep-undercover-to-bring-down-the-bad-guys plots, but I think it would've been better if they hadn't tried to make us believe that he was actually brainwashed. 

 

I'm glad Thea became Speedy. 

 

I wish Malcolm had died at any point - I've said this countless times before, but fitting him into the plot is really what made this season a mess. 

 

So...didn't hate it, didn't love it. I'm glad it's over, and I hope S4 is NOTHING like it.

 

 

Yeah, I agree with most of this. Sara's death was the worst offense for me personally. As soon as she hit that dumpster my stomach just sank and I knew I would hate everything they did following that. Ugh, I get so ragey thinking about it.

 

As I said above, the Olicity angst wasn't the best it could be. I understand the need for angst, I just didn't like the way it happened. And I HATED Ray so much, but most people here probably know that. Haha. 

 

Laurel lying to Quentin. Gross. Quentin then blaming Oliver. Even more gross. 

 

Malcolm mind raping his own daughter. So very wrong. Actually everything about Malcolm was wrong and forced. 

 

And then there was the overall lack of mystery. There just didn't feel any real impetus to find Sara's killer and then it was just predictable because loads of people guessed it was Thea after 301 aired.

 

Diggle getting lumbered with a baby and sidelined while other characters got to play hero. Naw, son.

 

So yeah. I really didn't like this season at all. 

[HighwayFlower]

Malcolm had Thea KILL Sara. And Oliver didn't kill him for that. Season 3 lost me right there. I mean, they worked with and had civil conversation with the the guy who had Thea KILL Sara! WTF??

Add the ridiculous Laurel insta-canary and there was nothing of the Season to like.

[tangerine95]

Yeah this season had more bad stuff then good for sure but it did get better when I rewatched.

I actually liked the first half or the season apart from Sara dying and anything to do with Laurel.

I liked how they wrote Olicity for the most part.I know a lot of people liked them drama free but angst is like the law when writting the main couple so I was prepared for it since they said the date won't end well and that Felicity will be getting a LI at SDCC.

My problem was the bad writting. For example I loved that Felicity walked away but instead of actually seing her try and have a life outside the arrow cave we saw her guest star in the Ray Palmer spinoff for most of the season.Or Olicity would have a great scene like the "I don't want to be the woman you love" scene but it came because of Oliver's incredibly dumb reasons to work with Malcolm that made no sense.

I feel like the chemistry made all of it work but like everything else they were affected by the writting for plot first.

The second half of the season was worse for me.The episodes after Oliver died apart from maybe Left Behind were terrible.

Killing of Oliver and sidelining Diggle so Laurel could play hero was right there with killing Sara as the worst thing the show did.

I have no idea what they were even doing with Malcolm aside from trying to keep him relevant at all cost.I remember thinking he had to be the real villain of the season but they kept trying to reedem him then it looked like they gave up on that when they made him Ras.All of it really hurt the season.I think it would have been better if it turned out he was working for DD or something the whole time.

[kismet]

Now that we got the summer finales & fall premieres of shows, I realized why I am so bitter about s3 of ARROW. I'm bitter because it became a run of the mill / middle of the road show. It was neither ground breaking, risk taking or completely reveling in its exaggerated soap operatic drama. For every gotcha or risky move, it was immediately undone in the next episode. Every trope or melodramatic moment was not pushed enough to an exaggerated limit. It had angst, but it wasn't the type of angst that makes you yearn for something or than better writing. What was worse for me, is that they asked the audience to accept a lot of stupidity in order to make their plots work.

 

When I think about s3 in the abstract, I think that there can be some amazing thoughts, arcs and plots. But the execution has to be flawless. And that to me is where the show failed. The execution was flawed or bad. And then it became like a bad games of dominoes where each poorly executed plot point then required another plot point to fall/fail as a result. It was a house of cards. But I agree with some of you that there were some really great parts of s3, but as a whole it really fell short from what it could be. I really hope that in s4, they can get back to what they were in s1&2 when they took chances and just went pedal to the metal. I hope that they stop trying to be a knock-off and just own their show again. I get nervous at times, because I think they are gonna try chasing The Flash or trying to duplicate what LoT can do. But at its heart, those are not the type of show ARROW is. I hope they can remember who they are. It's ironic to me, that the season that focused on Identity was actually the season that lost the identity of the show.

[AyChihuahua]

Just read a meta about 3.19, and how great it was that Oliver grew and listened to Felicity and let people help him and blah blah blah.  Yeah, real great, except that he forgot about all of it the very next episode and went forward with his stupid solo suicide mission with everyone except Malcolm cut out.  God, every time I start looking forward to S4 I am forcibly reminded of how EVERYTHING ABOUT S3 SUCKED.

[Password]

Seeing as

Sara is being resurrected (even though she'll be different)

I feel pretty good about pretty much writing the entire season 3 off as a bad writing nightmare. Perhaps you should try this approach? If you want to I mean.

[Sakura12]

That could work for me since I haven't watched an episode since 3x01. So it'll be I watched Sara die in one episode and the next episode I'll watch she'll be brought back to life. 

[AyChihuahua]

Seeing as

Sara is being resurrected (even though she'll be different)

I feel pretty good about pretty much writing the entire season 3 off as a bad writing nightmare. Perhaps you should try this approach? If you want to I mean.

Sara dying wasn't my #1 problem with the season, so that probably won't work for me unfortunately.  My #1 problem was Oliver (closely intertwined with the idiocy of th e plotlines).  I have never seen such an incompetent, manipulative, creepy, moronic "superhero," and I have read comics since the late 80s.  

[Guest]

Oliver was idiotic throughout s3 but you have to admit that 99% of that was because of plot reasons, which is why I don't have much trouble letting it go. Same goes for how Felicity acted in some episodes. PLOT. Just plot reasons everywhere. It's easy to let it slide when you know their character is better than that.

[manbearpig]

I know this has come up here before, but at what point does Oliver's plot-induced stupidity just become a part of his character? It's easier to ignore with Felicity because her out of character moments were not as frequent and not as consistent, Oliver was just downright idiotic at times, whereas Felicity's out of character moments seem a little more...varied, I guess? I don't know.

Edited October 6, 2015 by manbearpig

[Sakura12]

I still think Oliver was acting stupid in the finale. He just handed the psycho that brainwashed his younger sister to murder a family friend, a whole group of Assassins to lead, then left town. None of that sounds heroic to me at all. 

[Guest]

It's tricky with Oliver because he made so many bad decisions in s3 but I can't look at any of them and really see that as Oliver, weirdly. Oliver worked with Malcolm for plot reasons. Oliver handed over the ring of Ra's to Malcolm for more plot reasons. Like I just can't see beyond the dumb plot. I don't know why. 

[dtissagirl]

The way it works for me is, if I can pin down the plot-driven reason for a character I *like* being badly written [Oliver in S3], then I can handwave it easily if/when it's fixed.

If I already don't like the character, or if I can't figure out the process behind the plot-driven mess, then I just think the character IS as written.

So, in short. Biases are my jam.

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver was idiotic throughout s3 but you have to admit that 99% of that was because of plot reasons, which is why I don't have much trouble letting it go. Same goes for how Felicity acted in some episodes. PLOT. Just plot reasons everywhere. It's easy to let it slide when you know their character is better than that.

I mean, I don't see how that makes any difference.  Quentin was an abusive cop and a hypocrite for plot reasons.  Sara was killed for plot reasons.  Ray was a creepy stalker misogynist for plot reasons.  Laurel became Black Canary in two seconds for plot reasons.  Pretty much everything that happens is for plot reasons.  None of that changes the fact that Oliver was stupid from at least 3.4 through and including 3.23.  Unless S4 throws something in there about how the LOA was drugging him with a stupidity herb all through S3, he's just stupid now.  (And manipulative and unheroic and incompetent.)

 

 

I know this has come up here before, but at what point does Oliver's plot-induced stupidity just become a part of his character? It's easier to ignore with Felicity because her out of character moments were not as frequent and not as consistent, Oliver was just downright idiotic at times, whereas Felicity's out of character moments seem a little more...varied, I guess? I don't know.

Felicity was sort of dumb a couple times (IT genius who doesn't notice Malcolm bugging them), and I definitely thought she was shitty several times (accusing Oliver of wanting Ray dead, saying Sara didn't have a light, building a device to mimic Sara's voice and fool Quentin), but that's a FAR lower level of idiocy and a significantly lower level of shittiness.  Oliver was idiotic and/or shitty in very nearly every episode.  And I don't mean kind of dumb, I mean my-whole-plan-is-to-crash-the-plane-with-RAG-on-it-but-imma-leave-one-working-parachute-RIGHT-THERE levels of utter idiocy.  Dumb is really far too kind a word for Oliver's season-long actions.

Edited October 6, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Guest]

I mean, I don't see how that makes any difference.  Quentin was an abusive cop and a hypocrite for plot reasons.  Sara was killed for plot reasons.  Ray was a creepy stalker misogynist for plot reasons.  Laurel became Black Canary in two seconds for plot reasons.  Pretty much everything that happens is for plot reasons.  None of that changes the fact that Oliver was stupid from at least 3.4 through and including 3.23.  Unless S4 throws something in there about how the LOA was drugging him with a stupidity herb all through S3, he's just stupid now.  (And manipulative and unheroic and incompetent.)

 

But that's my whole point. S3 was a plot induced mess and that's why it makes it easier to write off. 

 

Most of what happened didn't feel in character to me.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Guest

[Sakura12]

I mean, I don't see how that makes any difference.  Quentin was an abusive cop and a hypocrite for plot reasons.  Sara was killed for plot reasons.  Ray was a creepy stalker misogynist for plot reasons.  Laurel became Black Canary in two seconds for plot reasons.  Pretty much everything that happens is for plot reasons.  None of that changes the fact that Oliver was stupid from at least 3.4 through and including 3.23.  Unless S4 throws something in there about how the LOA was drugging him with a stupidity herb all through S3, he's just stupid now.  (And manipulative and unheroic and incompetent.)

 

Doesn't look that way since he's finally going to go by his Hero name after his least heroic efforts since he returned from the dead. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by Sakura12

[AyChihuahua]

But that's my whole point. S3 was a plot induced mess and that's why it makes it easier to write off. 

 

Most of what happened didn't feel in character to me.

Okay, so at what point, for you, is he the sum of his actions?  Say he cheats on Felicity and lies to her about his son and uses her without her consent to defeat Darhk and generally is stupid again?  For me, a whole season of acting a particular way is more than enough for me to think a character IS that particular way.  I totally still loved him in 3.9, even though he'd started being a moron in 3.4.  But all the idiocy and shittiness just continued and even got worse throughout the season.  It wasn't until 3.21 that I was just done, but it got EVEN WORSE after that.  

[Guest]

Okay, so at what point, for you, is he the sum of his actions?  Say he cheats on Felicity and lies to her about his son and uses her without her consent to defeat Darhk and generally is stupid again?  For me, a whole season of acting a particular way is more than enough for me to think a character IS that particular way.  I totally still loved him in 3.9, even though he'd started being a moron in 3.4.  But all the idiocy and shittiness just continued and even got worse throughout the season.  It wasn't until 3.21 that I was just done, but it got EVEN WORSE after that.  

 

Well, that's a completely different question because I wasn't talking about s4. If he continues to act like a complete OOC idiot in s4, doing things I don't think his character would do, then I'd have to accept it has become part of his character and probably at that point I'd stop watching the show. But my original point was that s3 was so so bad for every single character (literally there was no character that came away unscathed from that mess), that I find it easier to let that season slide as a sort of gas leak year (if you've seen Community you might know what I'm talking about!). 

[Ann Mack]

Okay, so at what point, for you, is he the sum of his actions?  Say he cheats on Felicity and lies to her about his son and uses her without her consent to defeat Darhk and generally is stupid again?  For me, a whole season of acting a particular way is more than enough for me to think a character IS that particular way.  I totally still loved him in 3.9, even though he'd started being a moron in 3.4.  But all the idiocy and shittiness just continued and even got worse throughout the season.  It wasn't until 3.21 that I was just done, but it got EVEN WORSE after that.  

As Stephen once said the "writers are gonna do what they do" or something like that it is not verbatim. So if they continue to write him in a ridiculous and uncharacteristic manner in S4 (everyone got the raw end of the deal in S3) then that's when you hit up the writers. I'm sure there were probably plenty of times Stephen and Emily, hell probably the whole cast (Emily actually did afterwards) talked about the direction the writers were taking or took their characters. Sad part is they are only actors and can only perform and try to sell what they are given in the script. Hopefully, the writers are aware of how royally they screwed the cast last season so I'm sure season 4 will be done better in the writers room this season.  At least I'm holding out and on to hope they've made the necessary course corrections for Season 4.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Ann Mack

[AyChihuahua]

Well, that's a completely different question because I wasn't talking about s4. If he continues to act like a complete OOC idiot in s4, doing things I don't think his character would do, then I'd have to accept it has become part of his character and probably at that point I'd stop watching the show. But my original point was that s3 was so so bad for every single character (literally there was no character that came away unscathed from that mess), that I find it easier to let that season slide as a sort of gas leak year (if you've seen Community you might know what I'm talking about!). 

For me, one season of behaving a particular way makes behaving that way no longer OOC.  I wrote off Felicity's and Digg's OOC moments bc there were only a few, but Oliver's were pretty much every episode.  

 

Who knows, maybe S4 of Arrow will be Veronica Mars S1 good, or even BtVS S2 or S3 levels of awesome, and I will let my S3 hate go.  I really doubt it, though, bc I don't believe these writers have that in them.  Plus even if they do, I don't know that I can ever forgive, and I definitely can't forget, Oliver's (and Quentin's) S3 behavior. 

[Guest]

For me, one season of behaving a particular way makes behaving that way no longer OOC.  I wrote off Felicity's and Digg's OOC moments bc there were only a few, but Oliver's were pretty much every episode.  

 

Who knows, maybe S4 of Arrow will be Veronica Mars S1 good, or even BtVS S2 or S3 levels of awesome, and I will let my S3 hate go.  I really doubt it, though, bc I don't believe these writers have that in them.  Plus even if they do, I don't know that I can ever forgive, and I definitely can't forget, Oliver's (and Quentin's) S3 behavior. 

 

I think I have a hierarchy of Oliver's behavior and whether I find it acceptable or not so it's difficult to explain. For example, when he told Felicity he couldn't be with her in 301, that was a stupid decision for plot reasons but it also felt in character to me. Earlier in that same episode he'd told Diggle that he wasn't ready and clearly he wasn't. So that decision is fine. Actually everything up to 309 felt very in-character to me where Oliver was concerned even if he was a bit of an idiot and pushing away the wrong people. That's what Oliver does.

 

But then we have things like when he came back from the dead and immediately jumped to working with Malcolm, I kind of went WTF, that's ridiculous. I don't believe that the Oliver who loved Tommy and Sara would ever work with the man who killed them and 500 people of Starling City. The very idea is crazy to me and I knew instantly that it was purely for plot reasons. I don't like it, I don't agree with it. It's a dumb-ass decision but also OOC and for some reason, easier for me to write it off because it makes no sense. Like even now, even though it's canon and we can't change it, I just go 'NOPE, he'd never do that, it's all for plot!' I guess I'm weird that way but that's how I've approached 'accepting' s3. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by Guest

[AyChihuahua]

 

I think I have a hierarchy of Oliver's behavior and whether I find it acceptable or not so it's difficult to explain. For example, when he told Felicity he couldn't be with her in 301, that was a stupid decision for plot reasons but it also felt in character to me. Earlier in that same episode he'd told Diggle that he wasn't ready and clearly he wasn't. So that decision is fine. Actually everything up to 309 felt very in-character to me where Oliver was concerned even if he was a bit of an idiot and pushing away the wrong people. That's what Oliver does.

I was fine with him pushing Felicity away.  It seemed perfectly in-character to me.  In terms of actual stupidity, rather than just being wrong, I was even okay with him choosing to learn sword-fighting with Malcolm (not all the rest of the crap with Malcolm, just learning sword-fighting).  But in 3.4 he (1) explicitly put Malcolm, the man who killed his father and his best friend, tried to kill him multiple times, threatened to kill his mother and sister, and murdered well over 500+ other people, under his protection from the LOA; (2) told Nyssa, the woman sent there to capture/kill Malcolm, that Thea was Malcolm's daughter...WHICH HE DID FOR NO STRATEGIC OR TACTICAL REASON WHATSOEVER; and (3) blindly believed the aforementioned Malcolm when he said he didn't kill Sara, even though Nyssa told Oliver Sara was in town going after Malcolm for the League, meaning Malcolm had means and extreme motive.  He was only lacking opportunity, because he claimed to be in Corto Maltese when she was murdered...but here's the thing, Oliver knows that Malcolm has a few tricks up his sleeve, and seeming to be on island far away while actually being in SC killing Sara would be childs play for "The Magician."  That was the beginning of Oliver' season-long slide into greater and greater stupidity, to a degree that I hope the LOA uniform had zippers, bc I seriously doubt he could have figured out buttons or ties by the end.

Edited October 6, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

I think it also helps me that my first reaction to this kind writing for plot Arrow tends to do is to mock it. I think 304 is a great example -- that episode was one of the stupidest hours of television I've ever watched in my entire life. But I honestly just find it funny, instead of it giving me grief. Oliver telling Nyssa that Malcolm is Thea's father because the plot needed Nyssa to kidnap Thea 3 scenes later is the kind of terribad dumb writing that makes me cackle just thinking about it.

 

Also, at that point, I wasn't yet exhausted by the misery porn they pile-dropped on the audience. 3B was more exhausting than hilarious, that's for sure.

Edited October 6, 2015 by dtissagirl

[AyChihuahua]

Oh, and (4) he didn't even turn Malcolm into the civil authorities.  Moronic.  So what if Malcolm would escape; that is not Oliver's problem.  Oliver basically helped Malcolm completely escape any punishment whatsoever for his crimes.  Not heroic, and also superdumb.

[tarotx]

I just can't hold against any of the characters the fact that the creatives have a hard on for John Barrowman. Eventually it will get too much if the characters continue to hurt each other to "help" Malcolm some how. Other stuff non Malcolm related I hold in my memory and will continue to judge the characters on. A large chunk of the bad and stupid of S3 was Malcolm related somehow.

 

What happens in season 4 will be crucial in how I perceive these characters going forward and rather I continue with the show.  

Edited October 7, 2015 by tarotx

[Guest]

I just can't hold against any of the characters the fact that the creatives have a hard on for John Barrowman. Eventually it will get too much if the characters continue to hurt each other to "help" Malcolm some how. And Other stuff non Malcolm related I hold in my memory and will continue to judge the characters on. A large chunk of the bad and stupid of S3 was Malcolm related somehow.

 

What happens in season 4 will be crucial in how I perceive these characters going forward and rather I continue with the show.  

 

Same. 

 

As far as I'm concerned they went into s3 with three goals. 1) Give Malcolm/John Barrowman a reason to be on the show. 2) Make Laurel the Black Canary. 3) Keep O/F apart for the season. And two of those were achieved with the dumbest plot ever - killing Sara (and even that had a knock-on effect on O/F in how Felicity responded to Oliver's prediction that he was the next to die down in the foundry). So I find it really hard to hold it against the characters when their actions were the result of forcing plot for the sake of, well, plot. 

[kismet]

I process it by creating some crazy head canon that includes some intense overanalyzation & rationalization. If I felt inclined, I could probably give you a reason why OQ made every decision he made in s3. None of them are justifications for his actions, just explanations for his behaviors. None them erase the stupidity of some of his choices, just give better insight. The major theme of it would be he stopped listening to good people around him. He isolated himself and started listening to the wrong voices. Once he started making bad choices, it took more bad choices to undo those choices – until there were really no choices left to make to undo his mistakes. Here’s my analogy - He went on a road trip, forgot his GPS, started making wrong turns, refused to ask for directions, ran out of gas, walked to a closed gas station, hiked across a desert for reasons and then finally decided to call roadside assistance.

 

A lot of it was because of PLOT. So that helps to narrow down how much I need to process through. S4 will be important to see how much of the characterizations stick for all the characters (I hope not a lot). There are more things that FS did that I can’t understand in s3, more so than OQ. As mentioned above s3 was good to no one, so it helps that I can almost wipe the whole season off the narrative map since it had a global effect on the characters. Besides bringing back RAs, they are literally undoing everything that was done in s3 for plot.

SL is back, Olicity is on, OQ is shirtless, RP is leaving, Dig is in the field. TQ remains in need of an intervention. About the only thing that is not being undone is RH, but every season needs 1 causality in the ARROW world.

.

 

So in many ways I will consider s3 a bad dream that never happened. Or perhaps it was an existential experiment for the characters on what not to do. Like when they give pre-teens bags of flour to carry around to prevent teen pregnancy. It is a dumb exercise, but sometimes it teaches life lessons – although most of the time it’s just a waste of time and a good bag of flour

Edited October 7, 2015 by kismet

[kismet]

After watching the FLASH premiere, I'm bitter that ARROW gets stuck

with RP and not Martin Stein to spin-off into LoT. And as much as I enjoy SL, I feel like the more I hear about her resurrection - the more I am bitter we are stuck with it on ARROW as well.

. I just love Victor Garber and really really want to see him on ARROW. I don't even need it to be organic or logical to the story at this point, I just WANT it.

[lemotomato]

So I guess I'll be the one to inaugurate season 4 in this thread. I really really hated that last scene. Not because it makes me actually afraid for my favorite characters, but because it's a cheap, manipulative way to get people talking about the show that eclipses all the other interesting things that happened-- DD and his powers, Olicity finally being a couple, QL and his apparent turn to the dark side. I also think the EPs reasoning for the scene-- to create a sense of peril during the season-- is complete bullshit. We've gone through 3 years where we've seen that any significant character could die, even a kid. And the new big bad can make people's hearts explode by touch. That's not scary enough? 

 

I'm not going to let that scene influence how I watch the rest of the season (well, until that death actually happens), but I'm really pissed off it ruined my enjoyment of 4x01. 

 

Edit: And after skimming the post-episode media coverage, I'm really bitter that I'm going to have to put up with a whole season of reviewers and entertainment sites stirring shit up with polls of "who's gonna die?!" and predicting Felicity's death. Hate.

Edited October 8, 2015 by lemotomato

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. I'm super bothered by the use of a cheap plot device for the sole purpose of hijacking the conversation.

 

Because it's not even that much about the ~mystery death~ itself, since that's exactly the kind of shit I expect from Guggenheim [one of my friends referred to him as M. Night Guggentroll, and: ACCURATE]. But I've had only a few hours of exposure to the reaction, and I'm already EXHAUSTED, and over it, and completely willing to make a blood pact to not talk about it ever again.

 

I resent the fuck out of shows that do stuff that makes me dread being in fandom. And my dread is skyrocketing high. SIGH.

[tarotx]

I hate Flash forwards. Because it's all a tease. They are just annoying. So I hope the fans encourage the creatives to have no more flash forwards. Maybe after next season but even then annoying. But at least they won't have Fashbacks, present and flash forwards all in the same episode. 

 

Also kudos who knew that final haunting scene would be a flash forward. I can't remember who it was but Kudos for preparing me.  

Edited October 8, 2015 by tarotx

[Delphi]

Wrong thread, my bad.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Delphi

[kismet]

I appreciate everyone's bitterness about the last minute and the flash fwd. I have to admit I might be in the minority of people that liked it. I enjoy flash fwds if we build to solving them. I hope its not a an all season story device (im not always a fan of that). But as they used it in 401, I'm good with it. And it was a million times better than last years twist & death scene.

 

I will however join the bitter club that is not excited about having to hear months worth of speculation that it is FS or one of the Lances. There is really no evidence as to who it is, so I hope that until more evidence or clues are revealed I don't have to wade through tons of unreliable speculation based on hopes, wishes &/or fear. I don't mind a few days of this is who I think it is based on a first reaction or hopes/dreams/fears, but I will become frustrated with months of endless unsubstantiated speculation. Hopefully they drop us hints so we can actually piece together the mystery - otherwise I will be bitter they tried a flash fwd at all.

[Trini]

I appreciate everyone's bitterness about the last minute and the flash fwd. I have to admit I might be in the minority of people that liked it. I enjoy flash fwds if we build to solving them. ...

Hopefully they drop us hints so we can actually piece together the mystery - otherwise I will be bitter they tried a flash fwd at all.

 

I foresee more bitterness, because as I recall, they didn't have hints that (a mind-controlled by Malcolm) Thea killed Sara until the last minute. Assuming they have decided who they are going to kill off.  ::sigh::

[manbearpig]

I'm bitter because I have no strong feelings about the premiere at all. I guess we'll see where the season goes, but for now I'm just a bit underwhelmed. I also don't understand Olicity at all, which isn't something I feel bitter about since at least I don't have to watch the writers awkwardly stall their relationship, but they just don't hold my interest so maybe I'll like future episodes more when other characters get more to do and Felicity gets to interact with other people.

[yellowfred]

See, my main complaint about the last scene is that we're supposed to think it's a big deal that Oliver's going to kill Damien Darhk.  Like, I might have found that a bit surprising if it were a season ago, but Oliver definitely killed Ra's at the end of last season (not a complaint, just an observation) and I'm pretty sure there wasn't a single discussion about finding a way to deal with him that didn't involve killing.  In fairness, I suppose there just generally weren't a lot of discussions about how to deal with Ra's that we actually got to see.